Luthor Harkon vs Jaina Proudmoore

Alright Luthor Harkon is beamed to the WoW universe and is near Kul Tiras due to his portal technology something plot device thing he found. However, he's gotta loot because he's a pirate am I right? Well turns out Kul Tiras holds some secret device he wants to get his hands on, so in doing so sails and is about to reach Kul Tiras. Jaina has been warned of a pirate making his way to her new found kingdom. In doing so Jaina has prepared to intercept the Pirate's flag ship with her own. The two meet in the middle of Kul Tiras with the waters adjusted to fit both ships and soon fleets as listed down below.

Keep in mind Kul Tiras has been adjusted to fit both fleets as they make their way to the center of the kingdom.

So for the first round, its simply Jaina's Ship fully staffed with Kul Tiras crew verses Luthor Harkon's personal flag ship and his crew. ( Note Jaina's ship can fly but only for 30 seconds with a 10 min cool down )

The second round is Jaina Proudmoore, Daelin Proudmoore, and Derek Proudmoore with a fleet of 100 ships vs Luthor Harkon and his right hand man with a fleet of 100 ships.

( Note Jaina's ship can fly but only for 30 seconds with a 10 min cool down )

Rules

• No prep
• Random Encounter
• All lore allowed
• Win by destruction of the other side
• No Morals
• No outside interference
• No In fighting
• Both sides are determined to win.

Environment - Kul Tiras Proudmoore's fleet is coming from North Eastern side of Kul Tiras while Harkon's fleet is coming from the North West side of Kul Tiras.

People whom might be interested

@killerwasp@savageslayer@mightythunderbird@penderor@eisenfauste@pern@thenaughtytitan@kingant27@boringperson@lettsplay10@citizensentry@merulezall@bastets@jwwprod@detrolord@harbingerofmomz@DedmanWalkin@vortex1456789@traskindustries@tularianroman@sirfizzwhizz@reikai@wut@monsterstomp@zaied@cpt_nice@rpgesus@ghostrider2@dygoboy@pipxeroth@i_like_swords@warlordeternal@redzkz@decaf_wizard@tparks@jardinain2@dagit@wewlad80@ussj3071@aotd@army2442@john_7547@thekillerklok@dust_hawk@kgb725@rockette@supermanforever@dottiestmoon@darthsenju@solomonthenotsowise@fullmetalemprah

Not gonna like, Luthor is kinda a moron

I know very little about Luthor.

@decaf_wizard: He is, but I figured his lack of leadership is made up for his terrifying soldiers and firepower. This would imo be more of a brains vs bronze. Not sure if you'd agree though. However, keep in mind despite all his moronic tendencies he has fought and won some major battles both at sea and land.

Luthor feats?

@paragonnate: @warlordeternal: Luthor became insane because he looted a lizardmen temple city near by. The Temple city iirc was rather small and or had no guards. However, he manages to take an item that in the end turns him into

and has 12 different personalities fighting over him. However, despite this he tends to be a thorn to the lizardmen's side. He has actually decent prep feats ( despite no prep ) where he over the years rallies and kills sailors of all four corners of the world only to raise them from the dead and be his servants. He's skilled enough to beat the Tomb King's Huge navy with his huge navy, fighting for days on end, and helped Mannfred in land engagements to beat down the tomb kings as well. Keep in mind the Tomb kings have ofc great land and NAVAL forces. They're navy is stupidly powerful. Additionally though before he did this during the end times. He also managed to rally up enough forces under him and invade/destroy a lizardmen temple city out of revenge. This one not being small.

Lastly though he is a pirate king and has his own personal ship which will be in detail more with CA's release of info as this comes out. However, all the lore can be found on books or online. The guy as decaf wizard said is known to be an idiot, but despite him being an idiot he's won some great victories over the course of hundreds of years.

Here's the trailer for them as well, his forces are pretty scary considering most of these, besides possibly the larger creature man his ships.

Yes you saw right, skeleton boys using big ass guns with that big ass cannon being on his ship IIRC as they stole it from the Empire back in the good ol' days before he went mad.

Overall I'm not an expert, but I think I managed to provide some basic knowledge of him.

Jaina is too much a force multiplier in this fight. Her mastery of water and ice magic would be very, very nasty for Luthor's armada. Luthor doesn't have the magical feats to suggest he could even hope to go toe to toe with Jaina on that front, and to make it even more unlikely, he is of the Blood Knight lineage which is not known for its mastery of magic.

Only way I see Luthor winning is if he is given that Gargantuan [That massive sea monster in the trailer at the end] but.. I highly doubt that. More likely just them showing a new event system involving the various sea monsters in WHF.

@wut: If he was to get into h2h combat against Jaina though?

@solarwavealpha: One of Abhorash's old chosen 4, one of the oldest Blood Knights vs a wizard in h2h... <.< Kinda obvious what would happen if he closed fast enough. However he is on a boat. Far away from her boat. She is a wizard who controls water and ice. He is never getting close.

@wut said:

But what if......

On a more serious note I thought Harkon had a more elite ship? Like better firepower and so on? Also wouldn't his powers be decent though decent enough to not get completely rekted? I say that because he is famous for fighting undead fleets as well on a grand scale and he well was in control of all his undead? I mean he defeated lizardmen, tomb kings, daemons of chaos, etc correct? I guess none of them are on Jaina's level, but I thought Jaina was a rather poor wizard in the WH setting?

@solarwavealpha: @wut: don’t listen to wut he’s just mad that vampire coast is being introduced and not dogs of war. If it had been the dogs of war first or southern realms then vampire coast he wouldn’t be as salty!

@killerwasp: Ill keep that noted lol

Too bad Luthor is sort of incompetent at leading stuff overall. Im sure he could try and pot shot death magic and stuff at them, but would likely resort to screeching orders and his ranged magic likely wouldn't be potent enough to do anything significant

Jaina's force multipler is far too good here however, you are correct. Plus I think she can animate elementals within the water around the ships, which would kinda be broken in this scenario

@decaf_wizard: To be fair, Harkon's competency depends heavily on his... current.. mindset. Guy can be incredibly good at his job or so bad that he is almost more of a handicap then a bonus. Kind of a diceroll with him. A lot like Konrad in that regard, only I'd say Harkon is better then Konrad 90% of the time.

Honestly, I highly doubt Harkon could pot shot any kind of death magic. He's a blood knight at the end of the day, so... I don't really see him doing that to any real effect.

Funny enough water elementals exist in WHF. They are massive af tho.

@solarwavealpha: A slightly stronger ship doesn't mean much when the other can freeze the water around it to stop it or do other crap to it.

She isn't a poor wizard. She's very good. Is she like End Times Gelt? No, but she'd be better then just about any human wizard in the setting [that said, Gelt shouldn't have been able to do half the shit he did in End Times, but plot]. It just seems that way because WHF wizards are more willing to go straight to 'I boil your blood and kill you', but for big stuff? Jaina is stronger then the majority.

Holding together hundreds, if not thousands, of undead is trivial in WHF for a Vampire since its natural to them. Just how necromancy works in WHF.

@killerwasp:I'd still be saying Jaina wins. O.o

@wut: Right, but Gelt wasn't high on your list.....

Imo, First Gen Slann > Second Gen Slann >= End Times Nagash > Twins [Together] > Teclis/Caledor [At least, where I would place him]/Cripple Peak Nagash > Twins [Separate]/Kairos Fateweaver [Maybe a bit lower, he wasn't very impressive in Fantasy compared to Ka'Bandha who was amazing] > Third Gen Slann/Malekith/Lords of Change/Be'Lakor [Could be lower]/Sigmar Era Nagash >>> Arkhan the Black/Mannfred in Sylvania [he draws power from the land]/Van Hels/High Elf Loremasters-Archmages/Dark Elf Supreme Sorceress/etc > Balthazar Gelt/Normal High-Dark-Wood Elf Mages/Power Chaos Sorcerers >> Normal Human Wizards/Normal Chaos Sorcerers

So? XD

Not that I'm debating if Jaina's a boss or not, because she is and she can so beat Teclis 1vs1, but that's just me!

Really? because didn't Konrad struggle with that? I thought that was more like who had the bigger dick and so on. Big dicks = Control larger hordes of undead

@solarwavealpha: And I said she was stronger then just about any /human/ wizard which fits in that list, so what's your point? Unless not being in the top 10% make you a poor wizard which is dumb to try and argue [End Times Gelt is different then Gelt]

Is it some weird thing where you don't understand that blood knights are shit wizards? Because I've made that clear numerous times.

Yes Konrad who was leading a large enough undead army to threaten the Empire's existence.... Do I have to explain the difference in scale or something?

@wut: More like 1% everyone else matters little!

Really as in I didn't know vamps could easily control the dead. I thought they always had necros there to help guide the massive armies and so on. Not to sit here and try and say or prove a point wrong.

I thought Harkon had a huge force as well since he was fighting one of the world's largest navies and armies at the time? I take it his force was far smaller then?

Well, I mean they can do shadowbolt type things yes? I very much remember them doing that on fodder. Granted that isn't likely to do much beyond snipe fodder

How big?

Just to touch on this, Warlocks are a lot more comparable in mindset to WHF mages than anything else, if not power source. Same with Necromancers. Remember too, Death Knights, and Scourge Necromancers/Liches are using arcane magic (at least mostly, blood magic is screwy shamanism but it seems a lot less prevalent than unholy/frost) and have a lot of the same type of attacks that guys like Nagash and his peeps do.

Its entirely by choice that Mages of Dalaran aren't super big on internal attacks and bloodboiling and stuff.

Man those are some cool looking models! Also Jaina, she's an experienced vet who can give Luthor a run in leadership, sane or not. She has the magical ability to blow his fleet up via freezing localized areas and taking out said ships with various magical abilities + the support of her fellow countrymen.

@solarwavealpha: Could you stop tagging me please, thank you.

@decaf_wizard: Yeah, but I don't see those doing anything to Jaina. XD

The ones at sea are 'Fuck your navy' big. They are counted as a armada threat just like Gargantuans or Behemoths are. [They can split themselves to become smaller, but they are big].

Necromancy is just another form of Death Magic, more like a perverted form, so it makes sense that they are using Arcane like Nagash is using Death magic. I liked Warlocks the second one of their spells was just 'spontaneously combust'.

Found the old models for reference:

The worm thing above the crab is that massive monster that was swimming in the trailer for a size reference. The bottom right is the very top of the Water Elemental. Those things are scary big.

@solarwavealpha:The difference in End Times Gelt and Gelt is stupidly big. End times Gelt was the incarnate of metal who created a magical wall large enough to section off the entire North [was small 'gaps' and weak points they could trickle through], for comparison, that would be like at the start of BfA if Jaina just walled off all of Durotar. End Times Gelt was moments away from pulling a Caledor and saving the entire planet with his spell. End Times Gelt is so much stronger then normal Gelt they are different people which is why I specifically noted End Times Gelt. Jaina is stronger then normal Gelt by some magnitude in raw power.

Not even remotely close. To threaten the Empire's existence you are looking at tens of thousands, to hundreds of thousands, of undead forces necessary to cause their fall as undead hordes capable of doing so are stupidly massive [Case in point, Konrad took over for Vlad who raised every person that had died in Syl after a plague wiped out most people as a launching point]. Harkon is not going to have nearly as much people because he doesn't need that much. Just enough to crew his ships and unless every single ship he is leading is a ship of the line [which they wouldn't be], he is never going to reach that high.

No, Necromancers are very useful for helping to hold together massive armies, but Vampires have an instinctive understanding of Necromancy due to what they are [this is covered in the WHRP Vampire Supplement]. Some master it, or are from lineages where its super important like Necrarchs, some barely use it at all [Blood Knights {Konrad is not a Blood Knight, he is a VC}]. Depending on the size of the host and the Vampire, they don't need Necromancers just like Necromancers don't need Vampires. They just tend to work together for shared goals.

@wut: Yea.....Liches use arcane but what DK's use is really screwy. Frost is more or less pure arcane, Unholy is Death Magic (perverted Arcane) and Blood Magic is an odd mix of shamanism and death magic, likely invented by Ner'zhul. Then its all bundled up into Vrykul style rune magic which technically originated from the Titans

Warlocks use fel and shadow. Depending on the type of Warlock, with demonologists using mostly shadow and destruction using mostly fel. Their runes originate from titan runes as well, becuz Sargeras. Goodguy warlocks generally channel fel through artifacts or demons they have enslaved, whereas badguy warlocks are generally corrupted by Fel in some way and draw their power from that

@wut: When I'm saying the top 1% matters I'm joking around. When I said what if he could get into h2h combat with jaina I was again giving you a hard time, as we both know he doesn't really have the means to do so. However, I didnt think his magic was craptastic due to our past debate on this before hand where you claimed a blood dragon's magic is still quite important,

Anyways, imo:

Blood Knight w/mediocre WHF Necromancy > Death Knight in both hand to hand and magic

Paladin > Arch Lector. While the Arch Lector can amp his strength to compete in fisticuffs, the Paladin is just flat out better at magic and support then the Arch Lector from what I've seen.

Grail Knight ??? Demon Hunter... I don't know much about Demon Hunters to really gauge their skills against someone like the Grail Knight. I would need to see what they could do. My gut says the Hunter could probably win abusing magic, but in a melee engagement, the Grail Knight should win.

Chaos Chosen ??? Dark Ranger... Need more info on the Dark Ranger. I'm not sure this is a good comparison though because they are vastly different in function. Not sure which is going to be more effective here.

Anyways, I kinda expect the Arch Lector to go down early. Paladin throw down with either the Grail Knight or Chaos Chosen... But really, this fight comes down to the Blood Knight. Your average Necro in WHF is just way more potent then your Death Knight or WC Necromancer is by comparison. So the amount of time is going to really matter as a normal necromancer can call forth an army. On the whole, I think its pretty close. Need more info on Demon Hunter/Dark Ranger though.

As you can see before you say "No I didnt!" :) Now I know the Blood Dragons are you made clear are not very powerful with said necromancy. I was just basing my opinion and the thread off of this idea. I understood Jaina would have prolly an advantage in magic, but from what I've heard the Warhammer fleets in fantasy are not only stupidly big, but carry some BIG firepower. Since this guy is a pirate lord, I'd figure he'd have even bigger firepower and from what I was told the Tomb kings have a good fleet, I think the person I talked to before said,

1. High Elves
2. Dark Elves
3. Empire
4. Norsca
5. Telia ( or some other one I can't remember )
6. Tomb Kings

However, this fleet being a specialized was prolly around 3 or 4 in ranking. Again I could be wrong he could be wrong, but that's why I based the thread off of.

The difference in End Times Gelt and Gelt is stupidly big. End times Gelt was the incarnate of metal who created a magical wall large enough to section off the entire North [was small 'gaps' and weak points they could trickle through], for comparison, that would be like at the start of BfA if Jaina just walled off all of Durotar. End Times Gelt was moments away from pulling a Caledor and saving the entire planet with his spell. End Times Gelt is so much stronger then normal Gelt they are different people which is why I specifically noted End Times Gelt. Jaina is stronger then normal Gelt by some magnitude in raw power.

I didn't realize he was that powerful! I assumed he got somewhat of an amp, but not that big of an amp. He didn't save the world though because Mannfred was a prick correct?

Not even remotely close. To threaten the Empire's existence you are looking at tens of thousands, to hundreds of thousands, of undead forces necessary to cause their fall as undead hordes capable of doing so are stupidly massive [Case in point, Konrad took over for Vlad who raised every person that had died in Syl after a plague wiped out most people as a launching point]. Harkon is not going to have nearly as much people because he doesn't need that much. Just enough to crew his ships and unless every single ship he is leading is a ship of the line [which they wouldn't be], he is never going to reach that high.

I see. I thought he had summoned up a large force in lore, his fleets being one of the biggest.

No, Necromancers are very useful for helping to hold together massive armies, but Vampires have an instinctive understanding of Necromancy due to what they are [this is covered in the WHRP Vampire Supplement]. Some master it, or are from lineages where its super important like Necrarchs, some barely use it at all [Blood Knights {Konrad is not a Blood Knight, he is a VC}]. Depending on the size of the host and the Vampire, they don't need Necromancers just like Necromancers don't need Vampires. They just tend to work together for shared goals.

Makes sense, curious if Vlad had succeeded in fighting and taking over the Empire. How would he address the Skaven if the Skaven were to pull off their invasion as they did before against the Empire? I mean I'd assume the Skaven plague wouldn't be all the effective, but the army itself I guess? Because you have stated before Imperial troops are very well disciplined, armed, and trained really well and are professional soldiers. Where as I see from the undead aspect, they are.... well poorly armed, horrible fighters for the most part with the Graveguard being the elite but said elite is roughly equal or slightly less superior then a Swordsman, and they don't really have a mind of their own.

@solarwavealpha:When I'm saying the top 1% matters I'm joking around. When I said what if he could get into h2h combat with jaina I was again giving you a hard time, as we both know he doesn't really have the means to do so. However, I didnt think his magic was craptastic due to our past debate on this before hand where you claimed a blood dragon's magic is still quite important,

And how much stronger is Jaina compared to a Death Knight? If you are thinking, "Well, of course Jaina is waaaay stronger then some random Death Knight, by comparison, that Death Knight's magic is crapt... oh..." Then we are getting somewhere. Because context is important. His magic. Is. Not. Doing. Shit. To. Jaina. Hence. What. Little. Magic. He. Has. Here. Is. Irrelevant. He. Is. Craptastic. Compared. To. Jaina.

Do you understand now? Literally not sure how I can make this more clear. you keep trying to do this, "But you said X!" And its like you are just not reading the shit I write or are having this failure to communicate issue. Its getting a bit annoying.

I didn't realize he was that powerful! I assumed he got somewhat of an amp, but not that big of an amp. He didn't save the world though because Mannfred was a prick correct?

Yes. Mannfred, quite literally, stabbed him in the back.

I see. I thought he had summoned up a large force in lore, his fleets being one of the biggest.

It is large. However, see the first section.

Makes sense, curious if Vlad had succeeded in fighting and taking over the Empire. How would he address the Skaven if the Skaven were to pull off their invasion as they did before against the Empire? I mean I'd assume the Skaven plague wouldn't be all the effective, but the army itself I guess? Because you have stated before Imperial troops are very well disciplined, armed, and trained really well and are professional soldiers. Where as I see from the undead aspect, they are.... well poorly armed, horrible fighters for the most part with the Graveguard being the elite but said elite is roughly equal or slightly less superior then a Swordsman, and they don't really have a mind of their own.

Vlad didn't want to kill all the humans. That was never his intention nor goal. He was going to rule over them. Nagash wanted to kill all living beings. Vlad did not. So any plague would still be effective. Also, the massive skaven invasion was the Black Death and that was about 900 years before the Vampire Wars.

Grave guard have some level of sentience, Krell, for example, is fully sentient. This is why they can act alone. Grave guard don't need a necromancer to direct them. This is way they are more potent then skeletons in terms of martial ability.

@wut: I feel this was a bad match up, I think Count Noctilus honestly would of been a better match up as he has the magical means to fight Jaina, not just brute force.

@bastetz: Aye, Noctilus would have been better.

@wut said:

Yeah he could of then used Jaina's father and Luthor as like the bonus instead, which would of been a cool or interesting fight ship wise.

jaina can lift entire ships up and also control the oceans and summon hundreds of water elementals, and this is just part of her frost magic, cant see how luthor could do anything to her even if she was alone and he had his army

Luthor Harkon silences her magic and then shoots her in the head