Luke Skywalker vs Sanguinius

VS

Rules

• In character
• No prep
• No knowledge
• To the death
• RotJ Luke
• Siege of Terra Sanguinius
• Standard gear
• Location: Hoth
• Warp=Force

Round 1: Canon Luke

Round 2: Legends Luke

Sanguinius should win fairly easily against legends. Canon is murder

Sanguinius takes Luke to orbit and back, the result is Luke split in half.

Luke's going to need another android bodypart or two after Sang's done chopping him to pieces.

@firefly489: Sanguinius stomps canon luke so badly that the entire verse explodes.

Legends ROTJ Luke vs Sanguinius is the equivalent of Mephiston vs Sanguinius, only the gap is bigger

I love Luke but he doesn’t stand a chance.

I think sanquinius

Legends Luke would win and i think even capable of putting up a good fight agains Emperor himself.

Proof pls that Sangunius can create Black Holes and stop time. Fight Luke against Abeloth and DE Palpatine should give understanding.

@freeman185:

Why on earth would Sanguinius have to create a black hole, when he can just comfortably use his very high-performing combat precog combined with his laser-statuing speed to turn Lukes face into mashed potatoes? That is in-character of him to use in combat scenarios - when he fights he always go all out and annihilates.

@cergic: How did this help him to kill Horus? It didnt, he died. And now anyway he is dead instantly: pressed under overwhelming TK and then teleported via Force into Sagitarius A* Black Hole.

Replacing Sanguinius with Magnus or Malcador would be mush fair and good fight.

Also Luke faster, he comfortably FTL

@freeman185:

Completely different fight with context. Or are you deliberately ignoring the fact that Sang had been fighting literally non-stop for weeks, including one of his other traitor Brothers and greater daemons? And that he actually did put a dent on Horus despite the latter being ridiculously juiced on warp powers?

Why do you bother drawing those parallella when it's meaningless to do so?

He's not getting TK'd, especially since this is in-character per OP. You'll _never_ be able to prove that it's Lukes in-character move to most often TK someone and then toss them into a black hole. I mean... Dude.

He fought actual armies which include psykers and demonic entities able to utilize TK and blatant sorcery, no problemo, and he still got the precog to, again, comfortably ignore Lukes options via superior in-character speed and brutality.

@cergic: I know what was happening during Siege of Terra, how this is proving Sang winning this fight?

Because i can see Luke fighting much more powerful enemies, gods actually, if we count The Ones as gods(Btw Sanguinius almost lost twice to pathetic Bloodthirster)

Following your logic Kaldor Draigo >>>> Sanguinius

@freeman185:

The thing is, Kaldors accolades and his silly shit going on in the warp was the best showing the forces of mankind had to their name, bar what the GEoM has has done, until it was teased that the gods was toying with him. Regardless, Kaldors PIS-fuelled feats in the warp are absurd and is superior to almost everything else. It doesn't alter anything in this discussion.

I already explained how this is going to play out.

If you knew everything that happened during the siege, it makes your comment about how Sang lost to Horus utterly meaningless and somewhat odd since you'd be aware of the context which nullifies the argument.

Lukes fight vs Abe's not doing Jack to render him any more immune or resistant to a power weapon in his forehead or his torso being blown in half.

And don't try to shift any parameters. You said that Luke would TK and throw Sang into a black hole, despite what the OP says about in-character. I said that you can't prove that Luke does that in-character. Either admit to the fact or spill out a plethora of showings to show us how Luke TK-throws someone into a black hole to make it fair to call it in-character from the get-go.

If you can't, find another argument in favour of Luke.

@freeman185: How is it that people like you are this dense lol. Luke never fought someone who would time stop in a fight like Magnus the Red nor the GEoM especially the Magnus the Red where he slowed down time to fight and both have flat out stopped time. Secondly the fact you think GM luke could pose a threat to the GEOM means ure either way behind on ur lore or u honestly don't know what ure talking about considering what the GEOM has done

I know what was happening during Siege of Terra, how this is proving Sang winning this fight?

No you dont, you don't know what was happening because if u knew, you'd know that Sang has been destine to fight Horus and die.... its literally all over his novels..... It's literally stated in the novel when he thought to himself, right before he destroys a Titan with it stating "im not gonna die because I live to fight horus!"..... If you even bothered to read a few of the newer books it showcases in an alternate timeline that Sang actually does kill Horus 1 vs 1. The context for this doesn't give us much because we don't know what he did before hand, but the point still remains

Btw Sanguinius almost lost twice to pathetic Bloodthirster)

lol nice bait mate, and Luke lost to a wampa, almost lost to a rancor and had to rely on a door to crush it instead of him tking around and rag dolling it as well, so congrats lol. What's even better is lets lowball one of khorne's best bloodthirsters and call him a mook one, despite Sang defeating him by throwing him so hard he splattered against a wall like a bug lol. Never seen luke do anything of the sort, not even to a rancor who is smaller

Furthermore, everyone and their mother knows Kaldor is a gag/meme character and always will be because hes doing stuff that is above most primarchs like killing solar system sized daemons, daemons who would one shot the vast majority of SW characters....

As for the black hole, unless I'm missing something it was artificial black hole made by the vong, but it lacks the density of an actual black hole which doesn't make it impressive or nearly as impressive as you're suggesting

Also Luke faster, he comfortably FTL

lol so is Sang.... he's considered the best primarch and basically proved it. Magnus the Red quite literally one shot Luke.... ure delusional if you think otherwise

OT

Sang one shots Canon

Luke has to really abuse his powers in order to win his legend's fight, and since this isnt an out of character fight I'm siding with the Angel

@cergic: @mordhauextreme1: No need for me to step in when you all did this so well.

Sang stomps.

@kriegastartes said:

I think I'd have to agree with this :)

Artificial black hole no? Also Sanguinius is MFTL. Magnus Murder stomps. Ahriman stomps. Not sure about Malcador as i think he is limited in feats(though Impressive)

@sirfizzwhizz: sharing your opinion always helps regardless Xd

@kriegastartes:

Artificial black hole no?

Well physicis of black hole do not change regardless of how it was made. In fact, even obsolete old republic gravity machines had this kind of power:

Four thousand years ago, the vanguard of interdicting technology was encased in a massive Republic warship, the Leviathan. Though inefficient by modern standards, the vessel was capable of preventing the use of hyperdrives of the era by simulating the presence of planet-sized masses with its four enormous gravity-well generators." -TOTJ and KOTOR Vehicle and Vessel Compendium.

Speaking about speed, what is best feat this guy has? Statuing laser? Because even AOTC Anakin in flash of brilliance actually destroyed small army before someone who can react to light speed projectiles at point blank could move finger and faster than he could even see.

Problem with these Warhammer threaeds is that they little more than an echo chamber with feats being avoided as bubonic plague . For example I saw nothing for lot of those guys that would put them even above DCEU Superman or All Might, never mind EU GM Luke. From what I can see of Sanguinius, I really fail to see how he is close to Luke at all.

@eredin12: Then problem with SW feats is that people tend to wank them to higher levels than they actually are...

Sang's best feat isnt statuing blasters.... a mere fraction of his power allowed as a space marine wielded his spear to statue lasers and see them at a stand still. AOTC Anakin isn't doing that.... ever.... he relied on pre-cog to do so. Nice try

Btw here's the feat for said space marine

"The Spear of Telesto worked and Arkio felt as if he were merely a vessel for the weapon, like the igniter for an explosive power so far beyond him as to be unimaginable. And yet, every second the weapon sang in his grip, and the teardrop blade brought ruin to hundreds of Traitor Marines, he felt himself changing. Power the likes of which he had never dared imagine coursed through Arkio, and his mind struggled to grasp it. The closest thing he could approximate it with was his rebirth when he left the sarcophagus on Baal for the first time, but even that was a pale shadow compared to the majestic force running through him now. He was a hundred feet tall. He could see the passage of bolts and laser blasts as if they were suspended in the air. He was invincible. By the lords, he was godlike."

-Warhammer 40k: Fear to Tread

I've also already posted a lot of feats for Sang in another because I'm not "echo chamber" nor do I avoid not posting. I either have time or I don't.... You have no room to talk since we already all know how you debate though, stay salty my friend

@mordhauextreme1:

@eredin12: Then problem with SW feats is that people tend to wank them to higher levels than they actually are...

That happens with any verse you can think of . You will always have those that wank and those that lowball. So this is more of a " every 60 seconds in Africa minute passes" kind of statememnt.

Sang's best feat isnt statuing blasters.... a mere fraction of his power allowed as a space marine wielded his spear to statue lasers and see them at a stand still. AOTC Anakin isn't doing that.... ever.... he relied on pre-cog to do so. Nice try

I think my IQ dropped by like 20 points from reading this. Do you even know what precog is ? You cannot blitz someone with precog. Anakin bltized small army faster than Obi Wan could see, so fast that Obi was literally statued in mean time:

Never had Obi-Wan seen such a display of the Force from a Padawan. From the great Jedi Masters, yes. From Qui-Gon, near the end of his life.But from someone so young? Anakin's power astonished him. He had glimpsed it before, but now he had seen it unfurl, and it staggered him.

He had not had a chance to move, to help. Anakin had been a blur. He had seemed to be everywhere at once. He had destroyed ten attack droids, disarmed his aggressors, and disabled two laser cannons without hesitation, with even a slight smile on his face.

It makes no sense to to claim that precog is involved with that and it shows me that you in fact do not even grasp what precog itself is. " Mere fration" argument, likewise, does not work here, because :

a) Power of AOTC Anakin would also be " mere fraction" of power Luke has, quite obviously right?

b) There are much better feats than this in SW, such as Obi Wan deflecting light speed projectiles from army of 10 000 droids all firing at him at once, from all directions, while Vader has moved to fast for someone nearly as fast as obi to even see

I've also already posted a lot of feats for Sang in another because I'm not "echo chamber" nor do I avoid not posting.

. You have no room to talk since we already all know how you debate though, stay salty my friend

Do you think I am stalking you around to know what you post in other threads? I was also not talking about you specifically either, not sure why you felt personally called out but I was talking about what I observed being case with most threads that I saw, along with information I found. Which is that number of Primarchs do not even have feats above DCEU Superman

I debate by posting feats, yes. I am also not sure why would I be salty ? I am merely pointing out what I observe in thread I am tagged in to comment by OP. In fact, when it comes to this thread itself, please feel free to post showings of power Sanguinius himself has that are nearly on the level of Luke . I would love to see that. If you can do that, I would gladly concede

You also said that Luke does not use force in character, that is not true, Luke has very much used force in character many times, unless you mean in movies only? But entire point of this thread is to use expended universe Luke. So let me see how you think Sanguinius will counter that.

@freeman185: @eredin12:You both did read the description of the matchup in that its explicitly ROTJ Luke??

@cheth: Yea but Krieg was talking about his black hole feat, which was done as GM specifically, so I just wanted to point out how strong they are. ROTJ Luke is still equal to prime EU Vader though. I simply saw nothing about Sanguinius that is as good as that. Satuing blaster is not anything beyond what Vader has done or scales to, and as far as his power goes, nothing has been posted that would put him on same level

@eredin12:

Which feats do you want posted? I'm not contributing to an echo chamber either. Been posting feats several times for the most used primarchs when asked. Several times you've been in the threads in question, so i'm not sure what you have been lacking so far.

Do you want to know about the weapons he uses? Or his resistance to the force (since force = warp)? Or speed? Skill?

I prefer to lay out a reasoning, and when asked, do the hassle and provide feats to prove it. In order to not make every reply tedious, especially when someone claims to know the verse (the other guy).

@cergic:

Which feats do you want posted? I'm not contributing to an echo chamber either. Been posting feats several times for the most used primarchs when asked. Several times you've been in the threads in question, so i'm not sure what you have been lacking so far.Do you want to know about the weapons he uses? Or his resistance to the force (since force = warp)? Or speed? Skill?

Well some showings of power would be nice for start. As far as speed goes, statuing blaster is not above what Vader has done, who, while massively pre prime, has statued people that can deflect light speed projectiles from entire army. Indeed, even as teen, Vader could statue casual blaster timers. So he would not be blitzing, but I am curious to see how will he counter power Luke brings to the table.

My issue is not with you specifically, but as you can see in this thread, or Kharn one, to just name two most recent in which I was tagged, no feats have been shown for WH side at all, other than statuing blaster being mentioned, which is not even close to being above what EU high tiers have done. In lot of WH threads I see, same thing seems to happen

@eredin12: a couple of things:

1. I'm posting scans later tonight or early tomorrow, got an AW to attend to

2. I'm not arguing in favour of Sanguinius because he can affect the warp/Force the same way and extent as Luke here. So when you say "power", i'm not sure about what you expect - what i'll bring is what's relevant to the case i make here.

3. Luke isn't Vader, and scaling is one thing i can get behind if it isn't presented soley the way you just did lol. Vader smashing the small army of "dead men" surrounding him is one thing but that's not relevant here given the thread stipulations. Luke got to stand on his own legs here, not rely on accolades from people he has beat due to said reasons.

4. Ty for specifying to an extent what you want to see. Let's start out small-esque and deepdive should the need arise.

@eredin12: I will wait to see what Cergic posts, but to your point about an echo chamber. The problem with 40k is that its lore is vast beyond what most younger readers can stomach….it turns into complicated work to actually explain it. Those who have read a decent amount start grasping its own particular strengths and weaknesses. Star Wars by comparison is arcade mode lore and quickly/easily understood. It seems like an echo chamber to someone who hasn’t really read both sides, but is actually people kind of agreeing because it is clear to them. Inside a debate is not really the time to learn.

Edit: I would say your particular problem here in this thread is you are a very bright fellow that knows quite a bit about a lot of these topics but you don’t know a lot here (I am the same for any anime post original Robotech cartoon). I imagine 40k threads look like a cult of fanboys to you.

@cergic:

1. I'm posting scans later tonight or early tomorrow, got an AW to attend to

Sure thing man, take your time

2. I'm not arguing in favour of Sanguinius because he can affect the warp/Force the same way and extent as Luke here. So when you say "power", i'm not sure about what you expect - what i'll bring is what's relevant to the case i make here. Ty for specifying to an extent what you want to see. Let's start out small-esque and deepdive should the need arise.

I meant some showing of strength or otherwise power on nearly level Luke has. If he lacks that, if we agree that Luke is much more powerful, then I would like to see either him resisting TK on same level as one Vader/Starkiller have, or his durability being on the level needed to do so . Because if he lacks both, he simply gets crushed into meat ball, as this is fight to death per OP.

3. Luke isn't Vader, and scaling is one thing i can get behind if it isn't presented soley the way you just did lol. Vader smashing the small army of "dead men" surrounding him is one thing but that's not relevant here given the thread stipulations. Luke got to stand on his own legs here, not rely on accolades from people he has beat due to said reasons.

Luke is consistently confirmed to be as powerful as Vader with force though. I am not sure how you want it presented,maybe you wish to see confirmations? Here are they:

Although Darth Vader and Luke Skywalker are equally strong in the Force, their duels are more than just about physical strength.

-Beware the Sith;

Father and son were now equally strong with the Force and equally skilled with their lightsabers. But this battle was about more than just physical strength and Force powers.

-Jedi Battles;

As you can see, Luke is confirmed to be equal to Vader both in force and in lightsaber skill. so he would undoubtably scale to vader. Would you agree that Vader would beat Sanguinius given his feats ? If so, it does not make much sense to me not to scale Luke, as without scaling, many characters would be fodders. Someone like Thragg or Android 17 from DBS, all rely on scaling, same is with ROTJ Luke.

@six-deuce: Fair, but honestly I am not expecting that someone points out entire lore, but if you have same people arguing that characters , whom wherever I look into, in their RTs and other threads to see their feats, find feats nowhere near level EU high tiers, are going to stomp them, and then post nothing in those threads to back that up, it ends up looking like echo chamber to me on top of there being lot of SW lowballing in them too, which is why I often avoided those threads in the past.

I mean its an in-character fight even if its to the death, and in-character Luke has never crushed anyone, especially a living being, into a meatball, despite there being many occassions where it would have been useful to do so.

@cheth: To be fair, ROTJ Luke, unlike later versions, does not have many feats in the first place, he is very scaling dependent character. But logically speaking, if he is as powerful as Vader, who has crushed( even atomized) people many times with ease, we know that he is capable of it. Question is simply, will he use that power. In most situations, he did not need it, as just lightsaber was enough, other than in Rancor fight, but I think we all know that Lucas view of force users is much weaker than view of many other writes, both in canon and Legends. Lucas had Yoda struggle with things even Cal Kestis easily does. But if legends Luke has equal power to Vader, and if his lightsaber is not enough, he would logically use force if he has to, as rules also state that characters fight to the best of their abillites. But either way, do you think Luke would win if he actually used force in such manner?

Feats for Sanguninius

Rebellion era luke has countless novels and comics filled with feats. And again even later version of luke never in-character crushes people into a meatball

@supreme101: 'What battle would that be?' Angron rumbled. The battle against tedium as we watch Mortarion's sons fight where we should? The battle against my brother's arrogance? Horus defies Khorne. Khorne demands we fight for him now, yet the Warmaster keeps us caged.' Metal squealed as he upended a stack

of containers hundreds of tonnes in weight as if they were empty card boxes. The boom of them falling to the deck took a long moment to die. 'I am the avatar of rage. The power of the warp runs through me, my son. I will not be chained like a dog any longer, not by the Emperor, not by Horus, and not by vou. You are a fool to come here. I will kill vou. There will be blood, there will

be skulls. Khorne cares not whence the blood flows!' Daemon Angron is casually several hundred tonner……Sanguinus matched (bloodlusted) him in a blade clash in “Echoes of Eternity” pg 442. So Sang is at least several hundred tonner in strength. As far as durability here is an energy one and a physical one. The angel Sanguinius drew up from the crater his arrival had shaped and met his first foe. A bellowing nephilim green came hurtling at him, shouting pulses of sonic disruption powerful enough to shatter bone and break rock; the alien towered over the primarch, and its lucent flesh was alight with violent, flickering speech-colour. There was a crackling cadence as it ran, the outer dermal layer

of skin hardening into a natural sheath of misted, glassy armour. “Fear to Tread” pg 18. It came up after him, and they collided, brass and bronze clashing with gold and ceramite. Sanguinius raked his weapon across the creature's chest, cutting deeply. He hacked at Ka'Bandha's

wrist-guard, forcing the daemon to lose its grip on the bone-axe. They twisted in mid-flight, raining blows upon one another, each punch landing with enough kinetic force to send out thunder-cracks of displaced air. Sanguinius felt armour that had weathered a

thousand wars fracture and split beneath the deadly impacts of the daemon warlord's strikes. Ka'Bandha's foetid maw opened wide and snapped at his face, hellish eyes bereft of all but fury and

bloodlust boring into him. “Fear to Tread” pg 218. His artificier armor durability would be pretty incredible, possessing its own force field, and made from an MCU adamantium/vibranium comparable called “Aurite”. Speed “The brothers go at one another; sword to sword. They are a blur to the mortals around them, so swift are the clashes of their blades that their swords sing a single extended note, a lasting ring without crescendo or diminuendo. It is beautiful,

that ululating chime. A masterpiece of broken physics.” “Echoes of Eternity” pg 448. “He throws the spear, still slathered in ichor from when he tore it out of his own throat. The second he casts it, it rips through the air with a concussive drumbeat, breaking the sound

barrier: The Angel rolls aside with the grace of the sky-born, dodging

this streak of bladed intent. No, Angron sees; not dodging.

Faster than the human eye can follow, the Angel has caught his spear as it passed, rolled with the momentum, and now he

casts it back to the ground with a cry of effort.” I shouldn’t have to post AP feats….being kind, most tend to put power weapons = to lightsabers…but they bypass physical durability entirely unlike lightsabers that can be slowed by alloys etc that are durable enough. Precog described “Sanguinius nodded. "That gift,' he said. 'Far more valuable than the wings I wear. But don't think of it as infallible. It is a weak facility, as faulty as

often as it tells true.' He ran his fingertip around the rim of his goblet. *Foresight. Sometimes of concrete things - the way an enemy moves, the curve of an axe - sometimes of more nebulous things. The shape of the

crusade. The fate of a soul '

'That must make you almost invulnerable.' Sanguinius shrugged. "Not really. A vision can lead you into error. Or even if it is true, you can take the wrong path by seeking to achieve it. It can come to obsess you - you see a fate you wish to avoid, and in preventing it you cause greater harm. Or you become possessed by longing for something good, and put aside your duty to achieve it, and in doing so lose

yourself. It has its uses, but I do not see it as a blessing.” Sanguinus, The Great Angel” pg 81. Uses wings (they have durability feats equal to his armor) “A dozen of the creatures fell on the winged primarch at once, hoping to take him by surprise, but he twisted in the air, his wings extending to their full reach. The pinions slammed into the creatures and knocked them aside; with the sword and the golden fingers of his gauntlet, Sanguinius cleaved bodies and crushed throats. He let gravity take him back to the ground, and there a keening wail broke around

him.” “Fear to Tread” pg 211. “Sanguinius spat. Acid dripped down Madail's chest and into an eye. The orb

shut against the burn. There was no other reaction. 'I am not what you will have

me be,

' Sanguinius declared. 'I am he who will destroy you.'” “Ruinstorm” 221

I just want to point out "ahead" of time that what cheth clarifies is part of my core argument in favour of Sanguinius and what i said to freeman as well, plus what i pushed on earlier Eredin regarding scaling is one thing, but Luke's got to stand on his own legs:

This is in character debate. So i'm adhering to the actual specific rules specified and listed in the OP: "What would Luke" (not his pops or anyone else) most likely do or act like".

Feats will start popping in tomorrow.

@cheth:

Rebellion era luke has countless novels and comics filled with feats. And again even later version of luke never in-character crushes people into a meatball

For most of which he was much weaker than in ROTJ ( being fodder to Vader in ESB) and where he pretty much never had to use TK in such manner, other means being enough. I think what Luke does in character while fighting grunt soldiers is hardly representive of what he would do against someone like this. Sure, Luke would most likely not instantly try to crush someone into beat ball in same way Superman would not blitz or hit someone he does not know very hard, but as he fights to best of his abillites, if he sees other methods not working enough, as well as him actually wanting to kill his opponent as rule state, settling for nothing but death, which is something that very rarely happened with Luke in his fights, he would use power needed to do that. He doesn not even need to crush Sanguinius, he could use his force power to restrain him and then cut him with lightsaber

@cergic:

I just want to point out "ahead" of time that what cheth clarifies is part of my core argument in favour of Sanguinius and what i said to freeman as well, plus what i pushed on earlier Eredin regarding scaling is one thing, but Luke's got to stand on his own legs:

I am pretty sure in Invincible threads in which I saw you, you do not insist for Thragg to " stand on his own legs" but rather, you scale him to feats Nolan, Mark and others have done. And I think that is good, but same is here. With some characters, you simply must use scaling in order to establish how strong they are. Like Thragg, Android 17, and other succh characters, this version of Luke is scaling based character.

And as far as I see, your core argument is that Luke will lose because he will not use his main power? Would you then have Vader winning on the other out of curiosity if I amy ask? Personally I feel where your main argument is that one side will not use their main power in fight, thread becomes pretty pointless.

In regards to in character, we also must keep in mind general rule of vine, which is that characters fight to best of their abillites. What Luke does in character against stoorm troopers and such fodder is not same thing as what he would do against someone like this. And while Luke has not crushed people in character, that being more something Sith do, he has still used TK to take out people in other ways, like knocking them out, restraining them and such.

Well even in comic/novel adaptations of ROTJ Luke doesn't crush for example the rancor. And even in comics and novels following that, as in every single appearance Luke ever has, he never does it. Not because he doesn't have to, but because cruelly crushing someone with the force like that would be using the darkside (though even in times where he does on the darkside he's never done something quite that cruel). Suggesting he would do so is a big breach of character

I take no issue with arguments of restraining or knocking him out. Just take issue with arguments of Luke using the force in completely immoral ways without any precedent.

I'm not entirely sure about this. If someone says "in character" for someone like Thragg, i'd be adamant regarding his tendencies to go for the kill in the most vicious way possible. Arguably i'd scale his abilities, ie. what he'd be capable of doing to that of his (near) peers, but that's completely different from tendencies and behaviourism and what is the point of the "in character" rule. And i do distinctions where it matters, like here. Same for when i argue in favour of underdogs facing much stronger but moronic opponents that's able to get hurt. To gauge power's one thing, but to argue for the scenarios and how a fight would play out and what would be used is entirely different.

The general rule is there to aid when other thread rules are not in play. The best of their abilities is one thing; if it specifically says "in character", it's just that. That's why in character-threads with Silver Surfer or Superman vs fairly equally strong opponents got lots of posts agains them - they're idiots or too kind in character at times, and that's brought up when it's a key factor. Just like it is here.

If you think it's pointless ... well, i guess some thread rules just make it less interesting for you. Sounds both reasonable and healthy to me to not appreciate every limit or rule in play. I got some i don't appreciate as well.

As for Vader vs Sang - hard to tell how the behaviourism/character would play out in the first moments. I'd have to think about that one in order to be fair.

@cheth:

I take no issue with arguments of restraining or knocking him out. Just take issue with arguments of Luke using the force in completely immoral ways without any precedent.

This is indeed fair point, I can agree with it.

@cergic:

I'm not entirely sure about this. If someone says "in character" for someone like Thragg, i'd be adamant regarding his tendencies to go for the kill in the most vicious way possible. Arguably i'd scale his abilities, ie.what he'd be capable of doing to that of his (near) peers, but that's completely different from tendencies and behaviourism and what is the point of the "in character" rule. And i do distinctions where it matters, like here. Same for when i argue in favour of underdogs facing much stronger but moronic opponents that's able to get hurt. To gauge power's one thing, but to argue for the scenarios and how a fight would play out and what would be used is entirely different.

this is part I was specifically talking about. You would scale power Thragg has from people he fights with and beats, and same is with Luke. By that, I mean we can at least establish his raw power that way, but of course as I agreed with cheth above, it is indeed valid to say that unless he was bloodlusted, he would not crush someone. But he can still use force to knock his opponennt out or restrain him and then strike him with lightsaber, which would not be out of character for him.

Luke is also not really mornonic character, he is just like Superman and any other such pure heart hero in that he will not try to kill you in most violent way possible like Thragg or Vader might, but he would let himself be hit ether, he can use force shield for that purpose, to protect himself. He did that even against someone more powerful than him, like Emperor, hence how he endured his lightning for so long.

The general rule is there to aid when other thread rules are not in play. The best of their abilities is one thing; if it specifically says "in character", it's just that. That's why in character-threads with Silver Surfer or Superman vs fairly equally strong opponents got lots of posts agains them - they're idiots or too kind in character at times, and that's brought up when it's a key factor. Just like it is here.

That is fair point, but " to best of their abillites" would apply along with in character rule, it would mean that he would protect himself to best of his abillites and use other means of attacking Sanguinius best he can , which is why I think he wins, like ragdolling/ restraining/ knocking out, but yea , he would not try to crush him in most viollent way possible.

As for Vader vs Sang - hard to tell how the behaviourism/character would play out in the first moments. I'd have to think about that one in order to be fair.

Sure, please let me know when you do.

@eredin12: what is this Luke’s TK feat that makes you believe he can ragdoll Sang, and what combat speed feat allows him to use it before he is blitzed? Ty kindly.

Like Thragg or lot of other DBS characters, this specific version of Luke is rather scaling dependent due to not having many fights/ feats, but let me give you just one for start that he scales to. Old Republic ships( thousands of years before events of SW movies) , which are specifically noted to be obsolete in modern times, had to generate ( other sources further clarifying it as large) planetary masses with their gravity beams in order to prevent criminals from escaping via hyperspace( ships moving FTL), which indeed makes sense given speeds involved:

Four thousand years ago, the vanguard of interdicting technology was encased in a massive Republic warship, the Leviathan. Though inefficient by modern standards, the vessel was capable of preventing the use of hyperdrives of the era by simulating the presence of planet-sized masses with its four enormous gravity-well generators." -TOTJ and KOTOR Vehicle and Vessel Compendium.

Due to much scientific advencment in thousands of years after that, this lacked power to prevent modern ships with their more powerful hyperspace engines from escaping that way, while Starkiller could:

He overpowered modern ship trying to jump into hypersapce and instead, pulled it back, only after he was hit and his hold broken, did it instnatly jump into hyperspace, which takes few seconds for engines to build enough power, showing us that they were trying to do it, but being overpowered by him

Luke in question, is at as powerful as SK. As far as speed goes, not only are SW high tiers specificalcally confirmed by omniscient narrator himself to be fighting at FTL speeds( just in case there is any doubt) :

"Obi-Wan used the Force to summon his lightsaber and tossed it to Anakin. With two lightsabers, the young Jedi attacked anew. But Dooku blocked every thrust and, step by step, drove Anakin back. He slashed through one lightsaber, extinguishing its blade. Then, with a stroke faster than light, he cut through Anakin's right arm at the elbow."

But to trully see how fast they are, blasters are consistently over years been noted to be light speed:

Of Course, Den mused, she obviously used the Force to warn her of lasers or particle beams blasts that were about to be fired at her. No one was fast enough to block something travelling at or near light-speed. - Street of Shadows

It wasn’t the deflection of blasterfire with a bare hand that shocked him—he had fought plenty of Sith capable of that trick. What amazed Luke was the speed with which Taalon had moved. In the nanosecond it had taken the first bolt to cross the distance between them. -Fate of the Jedi: Vortex

"Though the transparisteel in the doors at the end of the main hall he could see distant flashes, narrow red bolts heading one way at the speed of light." - The New Jedi Order: Enemy Lines II - Rebel Stand.

"The wave of charged particles blew over her at lightspeed, nearly - but not quite - generating enough static to drown out Gavin's fierce cry of exultation." - The New Jedi Order: Edge of Victory - Book II.

I-Five suddenly whipped up his left hand, index finger extended, and fired a laser beam at Jax. The beam splashed off the ionized fire that suddenly coated the length of the blade, which Jax had automatically raised to block the beam. "That's how", I-Five said. "The speed of light is just under three hundred thousand kilometres per second. You are currently seven-point-three meters away from me. Your Force-augmented anticipatory reflex action is obviously working fine. - Star Wars: Coruscant Nights II: Street of Shadows.

While Obi was able to deflect them from army of 10 000 droids all firing at him once from every side:

Only ten thousand to go. Give or take. An instant later the Force had him hurtling through a storm of blasterfire as every combat droid in the control center opened up on him at once. Letting go of intention, letting go of desire, letting go of life, Obi-Wan fixed his entire attention on a thread of the Force that pulled him toward Grievous: not where Grievous was, but where Grievous would be when Obi-Wan got there... Leaping girder to girder, slashing cables on which to swing through swarms of ricocheting particle beams, blade flickering so fast it became a deflector shield that splattered blaster bolts in all directions, his presence alone became a weapon: as he spun and whirled through the control center's superstructure, the blasts of particle cannons from power droids destroyed equipment and shattered girders and unleashed a torrent of red-hot debris that crashed to the deck, crushing droids on all sides. By the time he flipped down through the air to land cat-footed on the deck once more, nearly half the droids between him and Grievous had been destroyed by their own not-so-friendly fire. He cut his way into the mob of remaining troops as smoothly as if it were no more than a canebrake near some sunlit beach; his steady pace left behind a trail of smoking slices of droid." - Revenge of the Sith.

To do that, Obi Would have to be massively faster than blasters themselves, as every fraction of second countless blasters would be at his position that he would then have to deflect. Vader himself was lot more powerful than this Obi. In fact, he moved FTE to another Jedi, Ferus Olin, who is noted to be almost as fast as Obi some time after ROTS and even as just teenager, Vader was able to blitz small army while AOTC Obi, who was fast enough to effortlessly deflect blasters at point blank even at this point, was statued in mean time and was unable to even perceive him. It goes without saying that teen Anakin, is nothing compared to prime Vader:

Never had Obi-Wan seen such a display of the Force from a Padawan. From the great Jedi Masters, yes. From Qui-Gon, near the end of his life.But from someone so young? Anakin's power astonished him. He had glimpsed it before, but now he had seen it unfurl, and it staggered him.

He had not had a chance to move, to help. Anakin had been a blur. He had seemed to be everywhere at once. He had destroyed ten attack droids, disarmed his aggressors, and disabled two laser cannons without hesitation, with even a slight smile on his face.

I believe Starkiller’s video game feats to be an outlier, I do not see Luke or Vader who you say he scales to ever doing anything remotely similar. Is there anything in combat not from video game that would make ROTJ Luke able to ragdoll someone who is a casual multi-hundred tonner? In regards to speed, dodging lasers is fairly common at levels much lower than primarch. I posted a specific example n combat feat of Sang fighting Angron and the sounds of their weapons clashing was so fast that it produced a single solid note without break….is there anything similar? Out of all the comics, and media animated or otherwise I have never seen any Jedi or sith get anywhere near that speed. I am not super well read on all the novels so perhaps I am missing something….but please don’t post dodging laser because that is ubiquitous. The last quote about seeming to be a blur is just FTE, standard space marines can do that. There are hundreds of instances in every space marine and up respect thread of exactly this. TY sir.

This is the start, just to give off some concrete feats from Sanguinius directly, and some concrete feats which are complete and utter jokes to him. I can't stress enough how far above Sanguinius is to the others performing these feats.

Things left out are specified above.

But again, i've not touched upon:

Other primarchs feats. There's ample speed and power feats from his brother primarchs which he is above by a large margin.

Gear feats.

Custodes feats.

Eldar/other races feats.

Sanguinius other physicals and powers, including his tactical brilliance and absurd thought processing as well (he's also a multitasker god).

Sanguinius suffers a bit from being a deliberate enigma in the novels, and i've not bothered listing the power his two halves within him possesses.

My core argument in this thread remains:

In-character rule makes this an easy win for Sanguinius, partially because Luke's not having the tendencies Sanguinius got.

I chose to give an example/touch upon this with a few of the feats i listed just to reinforce this. Good point here.

@six-deuce:

I believe Starkiller’s video game feats to be an outlier, I do not see Luke or Vader who you say he scales to ever doing anything remotely similar.

They are not outlier though, there are over dozen such feats in other mediums to which they would scale to and ROTJ Vader undoubtably scales to SK. Kyp Duerron for example, who is noted to be Yoda/Obi Wan level, mvoed black hole around and overpowered it

Within the Force, within the broader range of senses it gave him, he tried to feel the presence of that void. He couldn't feel the Yuuzhan Vong or their creatures, but he could feel distortions in space, hard little nuggets of wrongness where there should be nothing.

He felt many of them, but didn't know which belonged to the interdictor, which to the coralskippers, and this rarefied sensory data didn't precisely translate to exact directions and distances. A void that felt far away could be from a coralskipper close at hand.

He armed a proton torpedo and fired it. He felt its physical presence as, in a matter of seconds, it closed the distance between him and the interdictor... and was swallowed by another void.

He felt it enter the void, felt which of the many singularities it was.

And he seized upon that void, directing all his Force abilities and discipline against it.

It was like using a thin metal rod to push a grounded landspeeder. Too much pressure and it would bend, becoming useless. Too little and nothing would happen. He had to find the right pressure to budge it, to set it into motion and keep it going that way...

For a moment, the only things in the universe were him, Jaina, and the void. He moved the void, turned it around, moved it back the other direction.

Then he was himself again, in the cockpit, watching the flank of the interdictor distort. The void had moved back and touched the interdictor, and now the interdictor elongated into it, extending what looked like a pliant extrusion of what he knew to be hardened yorik coral into the singularity.

Source: The New Jedi Order: Enemy Lines I: Rebel Dream said:

Is there anything in combat not from video game that would make ROTJ Luke able to ragdoll someone who is a casual multi-hundred tonner?

So you want feat above casual multi hundred ton feat which is not from game ? Easy enough. Here is Darth Nihilus using TK to rip entire fleet of space ships, including his own 1,2 km large space ship from powerful gravity well and then hold his ship together with his mind as it was moving across galaxy:

"This ship, is it his weakness? It should not exist, yet it cruises the darkness between the stars. He tore it from the mass shadows of Malachor, along with his fleet, that is a measure of his power."

"This ship is barely holding itself together. The structural damage should have destroyed it long ago."

"The Ravager was hauled from the gravity well at Malachor V by its new master. He used it to escape imprisonment on Malachor V."

―Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic: The Sith Lords

"Darth Nihilus, using only the dark side, holds the ship together from his command post on the bridge."

―Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords Prima Guide

All of which would be far above multi hundred ton level, 1,2 km sip alone would have mass in milions of tons and even to escape earths gravity, you would need to move something at 11,2 km per second , while this gravity was much stronger. Keep in mind that Nihilus is fodder to Vader, indeed he is directly confirmed to be weaker than even likes of Maul and Dooku. In fact, even in canon, Vader slammed down and overpowered 7,5 km large Lovecraftian horror:

Which woulod have mass of billion tons

In regards to speed, dodging lasers is fairly common at levels much lower than primarch. I posted a specific example n combat feat of Sang fighting Angron and the sounds of their weapons clashing was so fast that it produced a single solid note without break….is there anything similar?

I did not post examples of merely dodging lasers though , but rather deflecting them from entire army of 10 000 firing at you from every direction. I can for example deflect baseball thrown at me,, but you throw 20 baseballs at me and I have absolutly no chance to do anything against them, while Obi was doing it against 10 000 of them. As for your question, I am not sure what are you asking me? How do you mean single note without breaking?

The last quote about seeming to be a blur is just FTE, standard space marines can do that. There are hundreds of instances in every space marine and up respect thread of exactly this. TY sir.

Not every FTE feat is same, moving FTE to normal humans and such, which Space Marines do, is not same as say Frieza moving FTE to Vegeta in DBZ, because Vegeta can react to things much faster than humans can. As is case with Obi wan who is able to percive and deflect light speed projectiles at point blank while Anakin was FTE to him

@cergic:

Moving in-verse FTE against Kabandha:An important distinction made above is FTE in-verse. Because they've made sure to at times point out that not everything is from human perspective. Below is also FTE feat and combat pre-cog, where they mention that it's to humans. Meaning it's well within reason to argue that the above quote, void of human elements, apply to beings of greater senses which there are billions of in the verse.

As I posted, teen Anakin could do that and not just be FTE to anyone but rather Obi Wan himself, guy much faster than your usual space marine

Moving faster than thought

Did you ever watch Rebels? If so, you know who Ezra is. Well here is Ezra Bridger, who is all around fodder force user as you know, moving faster than thought:

“Faster than thought, he extended his left wrist. His slingshot snapped into place as his right hand flashed to his left and he pulled back on an energy ball.”

Star Wars Rebels: Ezra's gamble

In regards to your space marine posts, that is good but again keep in mind that teen Anakin was FTE not to human, but to extremly enhanced being like Obi Wan and Vader is far, far above that child version of himself

This is the start, just to give off some concrete feats from Sanguinius directly, and some concrete feats which are complete and utter jokes to him. I can't stress enough how far above Sanguinius is to the others performing these feats.

Sure thing, I would like to to see those

My core argument in this thread remains:

In-character rule makes this an easy win for Sanguinius, partially because Luke's not having the tendencies Sanguinius got.

I mean it is true that Luke will not go for most brutal kill possible, but Luke would still use his TK to ragdoll/pin him down or to knock him out, both of which are very much in character for him

That's crazy. It's like i never post feats. Lmao

@kriegastartes: As I said above, when I said that, I did not have any particular person in mind, it is just general thing I observe in threads that I see. You are saying that Sanguinius easily beats someone equal to Legends Vader at his peak and yet what I see so far is faster than thought/FTE stuff and statuing blaster . I am not seeing how that is beyond power Vader has.