Luke Skywalker vs Dooku, Obi- wan and Anakin (Dueling)

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RedRanger

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3 v 1 lightsabers only

  • Morals on
  • Bloodlusted
  • All in their Prime
  • Anakin isn't hindered
  • Dooku is still old

Fighting on neutral ground in Central Park only using the force to boost physicals.

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generic_cannon_fodder

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How can someone block 3 strikes at once without using the force to stop any of them?

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NinjaWarrior268

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Eisenfauste

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Luke turns them into sushi.

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Pierpat

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#6  Edited By Pierpat

How can someone block 3 strikes at once without using the force to stop any of them?

by being three times faster than the slashes, and GM luke is likely faster than that.

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Eisenfauste

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Pharoh_Atem

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What a ridiculous thread. Luke stomps. These three aren't even fast enough to perceive his movements, let alone win.

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Eisenfauste

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SladeW

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With morals Anakin and Obi are useless, so Dooku solos.

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SladeW

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Like doesn't have full he'd training and in my opinion isn't that good.

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Eisenfauste

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@sladew: Luke could kill dooku while he was sleep walking...

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TheVivas

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@sladew: You don't read the EU, do you?

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AlphaQ

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@sladew said:

Like doesn't have full he'd training and in my opinion isn't that good.

This thread is taking Legends cannon into account. It's the Star Wars material that was added in the form of books, video games, comics, etc. after the original star wars movies, but it's no longer cannon since Disney bought the rights, previously it was called EU - Expanded Universe. Now there only is Legends (EU, no longer cannon) and New Cannon, the cannon material that now only includes the movies, the Clone Wars TV show and the material that Disney intends to add, or has added, such as the Son of Dathomir comic.

For the purpose of battles there is a huge difference between the Legends versions and New Cannon versions, since in the Legends material the Jedi and Sith are depicted as much more powerful. This may seem strange since previously the EU material would co-exist with what is now New Cannon, but the power difference was generally explained that the cameras were slowing down the action in the movies so that we can see it in the movies (speed is probably the most glaring gap in power between Legends and New Cannon).

As you can expect the EU material detailed a lot of what happened to Luke after Return of the Jedi, and it is fair to say that he became more powerful than any Jedi or Sith before him. He was able to fight at near-relativistic speeds, was probably the most skilled duelist in history, could affect black holes and mile long starships with telekinesis and could affect at least hundreds of thousands of minds with telepathy, along with other exotic powers.

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Obtrusive

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luke is the worst. Especially if its canon star wars. Then he just falls over and dies.

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deactivated-5e8a1f5fafc4e

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What a ridiculous thread. Luke stomps. These three aren't even fast enough to perceive his movements, let alone win.

To counter this - because I think the speedblitz argument is getting a bit crazy nowadays - Maul isn't able to clearly perceive Palpatine fighting, and yet when they fought after Savage's death, Maul held his own very well before being dispatched with telekinesis. Sure, it was Maul fighting the best we've ever seen him on account of his brothers' death, but I think you'll have a hard time arguing that, on account of this, Luke can "stomp" the version of Anakin alone who casketed Dooku in seconds, on top of Obi-Wan - who is considered unstoppable when paired with Anakin on regular terms - and Tyranus.

Luke does probably win but honestly, it almost seems like the internet gets collectively offended when Luke isn't regarded as totally invincible in every thread.

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Eisenfauste

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#17  Edited By Eisenfauste

Except Anakin couldn't even perceive Palpatine and Windu fighting IIRC. GM is even faster than sidious IMO.

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@eisenfauste: And neither would Maul have in that situation. Doesn't change the fact that in the very same fight where his eyes couldn't see Palpatine, he was reacting to him regardless. It's because Force users perceive the world in a spectrum beyond the five senses. The see through the Force, like a sphere of vision around better than all of their senses put together. And on top of that, the Force also occasionally guides them inexplicably and gives them frequent premonitions, including in combat. So there's no lack of justification for Maul reacting to Palpatine, either.

My take on the Banite Sith/Top-tier Skywalker/Solo speed situation is just that it's an edge, not a be all, end all fight decider. When you're put in front of three people who are all within your skill range with a lightsaber, and one of them is Anakin Skywalker fighting at the peak of his power, you aren't stomping anything. The numbers alone prevent Luke from fully exercising his speed advantage because he needs to react to two other lightsabers while he assaults the third wielder - his speed is essentially cut into three parts, more or less.

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Eisenfauste

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@i_like_swords: Honestly that's a super high end feat for him. It's an outlier IMO, heck Windu, whom of which is more skilled and faster than Maul, could barely perceive Palpatine before he got amped...

His speed won't be getting cut into 3 parts the way I see it. He see's himself going up against 3 people wielding lightsabers and he's going to blitz. He's fast enough to demolish any of the 3 going all out. No one should be able to react to him taking either of them out. Just long enough for them to swing their lightsaber or jump away to assess just how powerful this force user is compared to them.

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deaditegonzo

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Where does it say this includes non-canon materials? OP must have deleted that.

If it is canon versions, im comfortable saying any of the three solo.

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MasterKungFu

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luke is good but taking on 3 is too much

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Pharoh_Atem

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@i_like_swords:

Dafaq are you even on about, bro? Nice way to create a strawman argument and go on an entire rant for why Luke Skywalker is overrated. We get it, you don't care for the NJO; but you should remember it's only fiction.

Also, Lule skill level isn't on the same tier as Dooku or Anakin. He was debatably there 5 ABY, no way will he still be on that tier with his intrinsic aptitude and the fact that his feats afterwards are much more impressive.

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@eisenfauste:

Yeah, Mace could barely perceive Palpatine initially when they fought as well. It was only in the later stages of the fight up to the climax that Windu began really falling into Vaapad. But that initial speed edge didn't allow Sidious to demolish Mace. Even Fisto didn't really get demolished, he reacted to Palpatine just fine. In my opinion Fisto lost within four strikes because Sidious outskilled him more than he blitzed him. Kolar and Saesee seem to have been taken off guard somewhat as well - in the novel Palpatine asks Tiin a thought provoking question and then attacks him straight after, and then kills Kolar immediately after. I just don't think they were expecting that. And if we want to get into out-of-universe, the reason the fight was as short as it was at all was because Ian McDiarmid hadn't sufficiently rehearsed for the swordfight, and despite this Lucas insisted that the actors themselves do their own fight without stunt doubles. Essentially, if Ian had gotten his sh*t together or they had used stunt doubles, Palpatine wouldn't have killed Kolar and Tiin so quickly.

But still, from an in-universe standpoint, I think the surprise factor and the skill disparity play a bigger part than just speed. If you read Shadow Conspiracy, when Palpatine is dueling Maul and Savage, it goes into incredible depth about how perfectly timed, how insanely agile, and just how ridiculously skilled of a fighter Palpatine was. He was described as exploiting centimetre-wide openings in Maul's defence that any other duelist would have missed. And this was Palpatine after letting Maul and Savage down from the wall because he wanted to duel them for fun.

Not to mention? Yoda and Dooku had a pretty stellar fight in Attack of the Clones.

Overall, I just think that the "too fast too perceive" thing isn't necessarily of more importance in a fight than factors like sheer skill and unpredictability, which Palpatine has in droves.

As for Luke, he is absolutely insane - it's why he's the best. But when you look at the mythos, a trio of the calibre of Revenge of the Sith-prime Anakin, Obi-Wan Kenobi and Dooku have never come close to being stomped by anything. That's an absolutely insane trio to put together. If Yoda can't stomp Dooku alone, and Sidious can't stomp characters of this calibre alone, then Luke - despite being ahead of Yoda and Sidious - isn't doing it to such an incredible team.

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Eisenfauste

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@masterkungfu: Uhm he would demolish them. Not a single one of them would be able to perceive Sidious in a fight. He was able to, albeit for only a couple slashes, during Dark Empire way before his prime.

He's too fast for any of them to do anything besides blink and get cut to pieces.

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JediXMan

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#25 JediXMan  Moderator

In all honesty, TCW feats are generally inconsistent. Makes no sense that Obi-Wan is capable of fending off Savage and Maul, then gets instantly one-shot by Maul on a separate occasion. I don't think ABC logic or being able to ragdoll somebody is even a valid argument with regard to TCW. Everything they did was in the name of giving a good show, not being accurate to character abilities. I found everybody in TCW to be wildly inconsistent. Palpatine should have been able to dispatch Savage and Maul, considering how casually he was dueling them.

Canon Luke loses. GM Luke should stomp.

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@dccomicsrule2011 said:

Dafaq are you even on about, bro? Nice way to create a strawman argument and go on an entire rant for why Luke Skywalker is overrated. We get it, you don't care for the NJO; but you should remember it's only fiction.

Not sure if trolling. :P

Also, Lule skill level isn't on the same tier as Dooku or Anakin. He was debatably there 5 ABY, no way will he still be on that tier with his intrinsic aptitude and the fact that his feats afterwards are much more impressive.

I didn't say tier, I said "range". Semantics, but I wasn't using our 1-10 tiering system there.

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@jedixman:

In all honesty, TCW feats are generally inconsistent.

It's not just TCW being inconsistent in this case, though. We've seen Dooku having a prolonged fight with Yoda as well as Mace, prior to delving into Vaapad, and Kit Fisto both reacting to Palpatine on neutral ground. At least that's how I see it.

Makes no sense that Obi-Wan is capable of fending off Savage and Maul, then gets instantly one-shot by Maul on a separate occasion.

As explained in Shadow Conspiracy, Obi-Wan held his own against the brothers on account of both the environment hindering them and making them walk into each other, and Obi-Wan surprising them by becoming unnaturally aggressive. It was flat out stated within that if it were on neutral ground, he would surely die. Maul's only capable of oneshotting Obi-Wan with telekinesis, too, not with his lightsaber.

I don't think ABC logic or being able to ragdoll somebody is even a valid argument with regard to TCW. Everything they did was in the name of giving a good show, not being accurate to character abilities. I found everybody in TCW to be wildly inconsistent. Palpatine should have been able to dispatch Savage and Maul, considering how casually he was dueling them.

I agree there is some level of inconsistency in TCW, but I believe the Sidious vs Maul/Savage fight in combination with it's novelisation was done to the same standards as Stover's RotS and the films. Palpatine was dueling them pretty casually, but there's been no confirmation that he could have ended the fight with his lightsaber whenever he wanted to. There's a difference between maintaining a comfortable edge, and being able to kill someone in a few blows. (A good analogy is the comfortable edge Dooku maintained over Kenobi in Attack of the Clones).

What we do know is that all it took to give Palps a challenge was to kill someone Maul cared about. That version of Maul is just completely incomparable to the trio in this thread, whereas RotS Palpatine is very much comparable to Luke.

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Eisenfauste

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@i_like_swords: Well thought out take on that fight ILS. But I'll have to agree to disagree. Luke has two things here in this fight. Skill above anyone else, and speed above anyone else. If they don't get demolished off the get go, they won't be able to keep up for anything than a few slashes at best. Heck Obi-wan may survive the longest with soresu, at least I'd like to think so.

Not to mention? Yoda and Dooku had a pretty stellar fight in Attack of the Clones.

This is true but at the same time doesn't make sense considering how fast Anakin, after Obi went down, destroyed Dooku. Hmmm now that I think of it his strength is what stopped Dooku.

Anyway I don't remember the full context of the fight between Yoda and Dooku. I believe Yoda was trying to drive him off I'm sure with his skill edge and speed edge he could have comfortably destroyed Dooku IMO.

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Eisenfauste

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Actually Obi-wan won't. He fought Fisto already and they were pretty equal in speed and skill. . .

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@eisenfauste: Firstly, thanks.

Luke has two things here in this fight. Skill above anyone else, and speed above anyone else. If they don't get demolished off the get go, they won't be able to keep up for anything than a few slashes at best. Heck Obi-wan may survive the longest with soresu, at least I'd like to think so.

Nobody is disputing that Luke is better, but I am disputing the notion that he's so much better than the three of them combined that the best they can hope for is a few slashes. Again; the best comparisons we have are Yoda and Sidious, and their repeated showings against Dooku, Maul, Mace and Fisto indicate that their speed edge isn't enough to just trample over these types of fighters. Honestly, Dooku, Kenobi and Anakin, all fighting at their best, versus Luke, would be the type of fight that spreads across numerous pages were it put into a novel. I just don't see the justification for Luke being that good.

This is true but at the same time doesn't make sense considering how fast Anakin, after Obi went down, destroyed Dooku. Hmmm now that I think of it his strength is what stopped Dooku.

It's what is referred to as Anakin going into the "Zone", or Zonakin. Essentially, Anakin tapping into his potential on a higher level than he ever has before. Not only is it stated in RotS that Anakin was performing better on that day than he ever had before, and that he had reached new heights while fighting Dooku, but it's even implied at some points that Anakin is in the same tier as, or close to surpassing, Yoda's strength in the Force. While it's not the case, it's not far-fetched that Anakin was getting to that stage; rapidly defeating Count Dooku in a lightsaber duel is very much a Yoda-tier feat.

Anyway I don't remember the full context of the fight between Yoda and Dooku. I believe Yoda was trying to drive him off I'm sure with his skill edge and speed edge he could have comfortably destroyed Dooku IMO.

Well, the context was that Dooku had mutilated and wounded Anakin and Obi-Wan, and Yoda was there to ensure their survival. Fight on. If Yoda could have destroyed Dooku, that would have been a better time to do it than any.

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Pharoh_Atem

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#31  Edited By Pharoh_Atem

Drats! Twice my trolling attempts have been foiled in one day. I'll get you again on of these days, Swords. :(

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Pharoh_Atem

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Seriously though, Swords make some decent points. I would be able to debate a couple of them if I wasn't on my mobile.

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Eisenfauste

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I'll continue to discuss tomorrow, time for me to get off.

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RedRanger

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Drats! Twice my trolling attempts have been foiled in one day. :(

gtfo

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ShootingNova

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#35  Edited By ShootingNova

Honestly, speedblitz is overrated. I've raised the point before. The greater the number, the less potent one's speed edge is.

That being said, Luke is faster than Sidious and probably could at least destroy Obi-Wan first, but even if not, I'd give the difficult win against all three. It's not an absolute slaughterhouse by any means, though.

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TheVivas

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Am I the only one just now realizing how most people overrate Luke?

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DarthManhunter

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Luke wins in a good battle. Good points by ILS.

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RedRanger

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Penderor

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Luke's best speed feat I know, is that he seemed to wield ONE THOUSAND lightsabers at once. So...

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WollfMyth209

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Luke wins, but I doubt he'd just roflstomp.

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Eisenfauste

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@redranger: You obviously can't tell the difference between a joke and not a joke....

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Eisenfauste

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but I am disputing the notion that he's so much better than the three of them combined that the best they can hope for is a few slashes

Between all 3 of them Anakin is the fastest. And we can agree that he could barely see the fight between sidious and windu. Sure there are 2 other fighters here besides him, but he's fast enough that he won't just go around deflecting attacks from 3 of them simultaneously. He'll block an attack from 1 or 2 and then engage one of them with a quick flurry of slashes that no one on this team can deal with. Just how I see it though.

If Yoda could have destroyed Dooku, that would have been a better time to do it than any.

Which I agree but his lack of doing so seems to imply he didn't want to IMO. I mean he has the clear skill edge, strength, and definitely a speed edge and with that all that happened was a stalemate...

And then Yoda went on to stalemate someone far faster, skilled, and powerful than Dooku.

While it's not the case, it's not far-fetched that Anakin was getting to that stage; rapidly defeating Count Dooku in a lightsaber duel is very much a Yoda-tier feat

I mean you admit defeating Dooku quickly is a Yoda-tier feat feat. Going by this Yoda could have destroyed Dooku but for some reason he was holding back its what only makes sense.

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@eisenfauste:

Between all 3 of them Anakin is the fastest. And we can agree that he could barely see the fight between sidious and windu. Sure there are 2 other fighters here besides him, but he's fast enough that he won't just go around deflecting attacks from 3 of them simultaneously. He'll block an attack from 1 or 2 and then engage one of them with a quick flurry of slashes that no one on this team can deal with. Just how I see it though.

Is there an example of something like this happening within Star Wars that aligns with your theory? Ultimately we can't come to a conclusion without sound evidence; I could just as easily retort that he isn't being given the option to just block the assaults of two or three duelists and then focus fire on one faster than anyone can react.

My reasoning being, not only do we have Obi-Wan whose defence is incredible, but he has Anakin alongside him who he's perfectly in sync with. Their ability to fight as one unit, cover each other's backs, and launch a powerful combined assault on their target is pretty much unparalleled as far as duos go. Throwing in Dooku on top of that ensures my point. I don't see any viable evidence to suggest that Luke will be able to eliminate someone from this fight faster than the other two can respond, despite the fact everyone here should at least be competent enough to react to Luke's speed, or in Anakin's case, genuinely give him a challenge if he's in the "Zone."

Also, I think it's worth noting that it wasn't "Zone" Anakin who couldn't perceive Sidious, that was regular, out-of-combat Anakin. Could make quite the difference considering Zone Anakin's capacity for tapping into the Force, which should include his perceptions, pretty much skyrockets from where we usually see him.

Which I agree but his lack of doing so seems to imply he didn't want to IMO. I mean he has the clear skill edge, strength, and definitely a speed edge and with that all that happened was a stalemate...

And then Yoda went on to stalemate someone far faster, skilled, and powerful than Dooku.

You can be better than someone in every way and still be close enough to them that you can't quite stomp them. Not to mention, Yoda is actually a fairly poor choice when it comes to deciding if he can stomp Dooku. Not only does Dooku know Yoda's primary form, Ataru, inside and out from sparring against it thousands and thousands of times, but he's also sparred Yoda himself extensively, and that kind of intimate knowledge on your opponent has been known to prolong fights past what their expiration date would and should have been (Bulq vs Windu, Galen vs Vader, Kenobi vs Anakin, etc).

So, yeah. I don't think Yoda quite held back as much as he was just winning decisively without absolutely eradicating Dooku. He was still winning comfortably, bear in mind; Dooku was extremely desperate and becoming fatigued according to a few sources.

I mean you admit defeating Dooku quickly is a Yoda-tier feat feat. Going by this Yoda could have destroyed Dooku but for some reason he was holding back its what only makes sense.

It's not as simple as A>B>C. Different fighters produce different outcomes. Anakin's style, it's focus on strength and hammering down on an opponent, coupled by technical skill Dooku considers unparalleled as far as Form V shows, is likely going to do better against Dooku specifically than Yoda wearing Dooku down over time by spamming Ataru, which is less focused on traits that can potentially hamper Dooku. And there's also the mutual knowledge I brought up. I'm not saying Anakin was better or worse than Yoda at that specific point in time, but he and other characters fluctuate depending on the circumstances. Could he have been better than Yoda in that one moment? Possibly. Or it might have just been an especially favourable moment for him.

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Eisenfauste

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#44  Edited By Eisenfauste

I could just as easily retort that he isn't being given the option to just block the assaults of two or three duelists and then focus fire on one faster than anyone can react.

Why not? I mean I hate to keep using Anakin as a benchmark for reactions but like I said he could barely see Palpatine in the fight, how is he going to react fast enough to stop a flurry of slashes from someone even faster. How are either obi-wan or Dooku, well maybe Dooku could do it, going to react to their ally getting cut to pieces. I mean Dooku is very comparable to Windu in skill and speed. Windu could barely react to palpatine before he got amped up. Although I don't like using A>B>C logic I think his reactions are comparable enough that we could measure reactions between the two based on this showing. Not enough for a concrete definition of reactions but a decent loose one IMO. And I don't see Anakin tapping into potential since that's not his standard thing.

My reasoning being, not only do we have Obi-Wan whose defence is incredible, but he has Anakin alongside him who he's perfectly in sync with. Their ability to fight as one unit, cover each other's backs, and launch a powerful combined assault on their target is pretty much unparalleled as far as duos go.

You're right they are a fantastic team. . . yet Dooku still gave them a good fight by himself. Heck actually I think in that fight Obi-Wan is cited as a hindrance? I could be wrong, but although fantastic team work someone of less skill, power, and far less speed still made them work for it (this is comparing Luke to Dooku here :P)

Also, I think it's worth noting that it wasn't "Zone" Anakin who couldn't perceive Sidious, that was regular, out-of-combat Anakin. Could make quite the difference considering Zone Anakin's capacity for tapping into the Force, which should include his perceptions, pretty much skyrockets from where we usually see him.

Agreed but assuming he doesn't, which he probably won't, he still won't be able to perceive Luke very well. I also think another argument could be stemmed from your first sentence. Interesting.

You can be better than someone in every way and still be close enough to them that you can't quite stomp them. Not to mention, Yoda is actually a fairly poor choice when it comes to deciding if he can stomp Dooku. Not only does Dooku know Yoda's primary form, Ataru, inside and out from sparring against it thousands and thousands of times, but he's also sparred Yoda himself extensively, and that kind of intimate knowledge on your opponent has been known to prolong fights past what their expiration date would and should have been (Bulq vs Windu, Galen vs Vader, Kenobi vs Anakin, etc).

Excellent point. I was just speaking about this subject with my brother the other day. Knowing someones moves can give you an edge you would usually not have. But to be fair in these sparring matches dueling is the emphasis, Dooku still wouldn't be able to keep up with Yoda in a serious battle where he wanted him dead. When Anakin tapped into his potential his speed and strength were amped which is how Dooku went down, Dooku was still more skilled at that point. So I think Yoda can still be a choice in deciding if he can stomp Dooku IMO since speed and strength are still on his side.

It's not as simple as A>B>C. Different fighters produce different outcomes. Anakin's style, it's focus on strength and hammering down on an opponent, coupled by technical skill Dooku considers unparalleled as far as Form V shows, is likely going to do better against Dooku specifically than Yoda wearing Dooku down over time by spamming Ataru, which is less focused on traits that can potentially hamper Dooku. And there's also the mutual knowledge I brought up. I'm not saying Anakin was better or worse than Yoda at that specific point in time, but he and other characters fluctuate depending on the circumstances. Could he have been better than Yoda in that one moment? Possibly. Or it might have just been an especially favourable moment for him.

Of course not I was simply pointing out that your comment could allude to an outcome like that. Though I think we are moving away from the speed argument here and more into the realm of skill and forms which can counteract a speed advantage to an extent, unless your opponent is using an unorthodox lightsaber style, and speed far over your own such as Luke.

Ultimately I think we'll have to agree to disagree. Luke is fast enough to engage one of them without others being quick enough to react IMO. And his unorthodox style, coupled with speed means one of them is going to get demolished off the bat. They may be able to block several.....but I still see him being able to engage one so fast that the others won't be able to provide sufficient enough help to keep their ally from getting turned into sushi.

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Also, Swords, I would just like to point out, the high tiers like Palpatine has stomped the characters on the level of Dooku before. Palpatine in DE more or less stomped, 12 ABY Luke Skywalker, and this was before he gained substantial power inn the clone body. Luke during that time period, was above the likes of Dooku and Obi-Wan surely, and Palpatine skill with a blade isn't on a prime Luke's tier, IMO.

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Since OP didn't specify EU, I'll assume we're going with canon Star Wars. In which case Luke gets stomped so horribly by any one of the 3 on the team that he's nothing more than a bloody smear on the ground by the end. Putting all 3 against him is just spite.

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@eisenfauste:

Why not? I mean I hate to keep using Anakin as a benchmark for reactions but like I said he could barely see Palpatine in the fight, how is he going to react fast enough to stop a flurry of slashes from someone even faster.

I already covered the difference between perceiving someone with your eyesight, and perceiving them through the Force, and thus the difference between perception speed and reaction speed. You don't need to see someone to adequately react to them when the Force is on your side, as has been demonstrated numerous times.

Doesn't change the fact that in the very same fight where his eyes couldn't see Palpatine, he was reacting to him regardless. It's because Force users perceive the world in a spectrum beyond the five senses. The see through the Force, like a sphere of vision around better than all of their senses put together. And on top of that, the Force also occasionally guides them inexplicably and gives them frequent premonitions, including in combat. So there's no lack of justification for Maul reacting to Palpatine, either.

-----

You're right they are a fantastic team. . . yet Dooku still gave them a good fight by himself. Heck actually I think in that fight Obi-Wan is cited as a hindrance? I could be wrong, but although fantastic team work someone of less skill, power, and far less speed still made them work for it (this is comparing Luke to Dooku here :P)

He did give them a good fight.. but was rapidly losing. And nah, Obi-Wan was far from a hindrance; Dooku's stamina was flagging and he was getting desperate up until he removed Kenobi with telekinesis. So I wouldn't say Dooku lasting against them but ultimately being as outmatched as he was against Yoda is justification for Luke killing members of this trio faster than they can feasibly react.

And not to mention, Dooku is also present here, and Anakin is fighting at his best, not how he was fighting Dooku in the portion of the fight where he was with Obi-Wan. Those two additional factors make Luke's challenge in this thread incomparable to Dooku's.

Agreed but assuming he doesn't, which he probably won't, he still won't be able to perceive Luke very well. I also think another argument could be stemmed from your first sentence. Interesting.

Why wouldn't Anakin's Force augmentation across the board increase drastically? Like I said, his overall connection to the Force skyrocketed against Dooku. That doesn't just count for his strength, speed etc, but also the depth of which he perceives the Force and how able he is to be guided by it. The Force ties in directly with how well a Force user uses their lightsaber, it's not exactly an increase in "skill", but their overall fluidity, and intuitive understanding of combat goes up alongside how connected they are to the Force. It's why in Darth Maul: Shadow Hunter Darsha Assant went from being someone who Darth Maul would chew up and spit out, to being someone who can give him a pretty decent fight; she entered this state of heightened connection to the Force which was described as being more potent than any Jedi Master living that day, and it allowed her to stretch out through the Force in the middle of combat in order to ascertain numerous Visions of how the fight could potentially go, so she could find a way to beat Maul (although unfortunately for her, she dies in all of them :P)

The point I'm making is, Anakin as an overall fighter is on a whole new level when he goes into the "Zone"; he becomes someone who can give Luke a great fight, Skywalker to Skywalker.

Excellent point. I was just speaking about this subject with my brother the other day. Knowing someones moves can give you an edge you would usually not have. But to be fair in these sparring matches dueling is the emphasis, Dooku still wouldn't be able to keep up with Yoda in a serious battle where he wanted him dead. When Anakin tapped into his potential his speed and strength were amped which is how Dooku went down, Dooku was still more skilled at that point. So I think Yoda can still be a choice in deciding if he can stomp Dooku IMO since speed and strength are still on his side.

Again, based on what was AotC not a serious battle and why wouldn't Dooku be able to hold his own against Yoda in one? It's all well and good if you personally don't believe that Dooku should be able to contend with Yoda, but in a debating format we need to be objective about our analysis. Objectively speaking, there's no reason that Yoda should be able to speedblitz Dooku.

It wasn't just his speed and strength; it was his overall fighting prowess that increased along with his connection to the Force. The whole contest was described as being comic relief by Stover when Anakin went into the Zone because at that point, Dooku was outmatched in basically every area. Maybe not raw technical skill, but raw ability to wield a lightsaber, certainly.

Of course not I was simply pointing out that your comment could allude to an outcome like that. Though I think we are moving away from the speed argument here and more into the realm of skill and forms which can counteract a speed advantage to an extent, unless your opponent is using an unorthodox lightsaber style, and speed far over your own such as Luke.

Ultimately I think we'll have to agree to disagree. Luke is fast enough to engage one of them without others being quick enough to react IMO. And his unorthodox style, coupled with speed means one of them is going to get demolished off the bat. They may be able to block several.....but I still see him being able to engage one so fast that the others won't be able to provide sufficient enough help to keep their ally from getting turned into sushi.

Well, hopefully my reply made sure I wasn't alluding to that. :P

I'm fine with agreeing to disagree, people aren't going to interpret subjects like this the same way. I just personally think there's a limit to how far you can go with the "speedblitz".

@dccomicsrule2011 said:

Also, Swords, I would just like to point out, the high tiers like Palpatine has stomped the characters on the level of Dooku before. Palpatine in DE more or less stomped, 12 ABY Luke Skywalker, and this was before he gained substantial power inn the clone body. Luke during that time period, was above the likes of Dooku and Obi-Wan surely, and Palpatine skill with a blade isn't on a prime Luke's tier, IMO.

I have a few of rebuttals to this.

1. Disarming someone isn't necessarily a stomp. In a few sources Yoda had disarmed Sidious in their duel. Obi-Wan and Ventress both disarmed each other mutually within the space of one fight. It just happens from time to time.

2. One thing to consider is that when using Dark Empire feats, we're being retroactive; there was no "speedblitz", hell, there was no prequel trilogy period when the Dark Empire duels were written. By modern standards, a Palpatine in a clone body who is arguably in one of his weaker dueling incarnations, rapidly outdueling a Luke who has had years to improve after his stalemate/victory over Vader, just doesn't hold up to comparisons between similar fights, unless we suggest that Palpatine is now the best duelist in the mythos (which isn't really impossible, the guy is a complete monster). Weaker duelists have done better than DE Luke against a better Sidious/Yoda repeatedly.

3. The place the fight took place on, Byss, is an incredibly potent dark side nexus, which would be amplifying Palpatine and weakening Luke, so this could feasibly explain the disparity as well.

So, overall, we need to come to a conclusion; is Dark Empire throwing a wrench in the works of consistency due to being outdated by 20 years, or does Palpatine legitimately have the best dueling feat in the mythos, which is rapidly defeating a Dooku+ tier duelist in a weakened state?

Also, I again would also argue that a Byss-amplified Palpatine in a weaker body is still highly comparable to Luke in his prime, whereas Dark Empire Luke alone is arguably below Zone-Anakin, never mind throwing Obi-Wan and Dooku in on top of that, which is the point I'm really trying to drive home; the notion that one duelist in Star Wars is capable of single handedly wiping out a trio of this calibre is unheard of, and contradicted by lesser forces (Maul, Dooku, Mace, Fisto) doing well against Luke-tier combatants (Yoda or Sidious), multiple times. It's just too much. The numbers, their synergy, and their near top-tier skill is too much to justify pretty much anyone stomping them. It's an incredibly debatable fight.

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Even if this is main canon Luke, he isn't getting stomped at all. He more or less stalemated Darth Vader in combat, and I dout Vader's adroitness with a blade is below Obi-Wan, Dooku and Anakin to the point he'll be easily stomped.

....

Plus, considering the OP said Anakin isn't hindered, I kinda assumed Legends version, since Anakin was never clearly hindered in canon.

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@dccomicsrule2011 said:

Even if this is main canon Luke, he isn't getting stomped at all. He more or less stalemated Darth Vader in combat, and I dout Vader's adroitness with a blade is below Obi-Wan, Dooku and Anakin to the point he'll be easily stomped.

RotJ Luke would absolutely get stomped by this trio.

Edit: Scratch that, I see you were replying to the notion that Luke would get stomped by any of them 1v1. Ignore my post in that case.

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@i_like_swords: I thought you were taking a break from SW debating? What's going on, ILS?

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