Luke Skywalker RotJ and General Grievous vs Count Dooku and Asajj Ventress

I’ve always wanted to have Grievous on the side of a good guy. Which team would win this fight?

-Canon and EU sources allowed, although I’d prefer that you specify which source(s) you’re using while answering

I like team 1 for either canon or legends. If Legends, Grievous is extremely formidable, if canon, then Luke becomes the MVP by a wide margin due to his relativity to canon Vader.

Luke vs Vader in RotJ is one of the most controversial SW debates, but I'm of the camp that says he was equal to Vader, so he should be able to match Count, this is applicable in both Canon and Legends. Legends Grievous ranks above Ventress, but below her in Canon.

Team 1 wins in Legends

Team 2 wins narrowly in Canon.

Luke is the mvp, team 1.

dooku is a smart fighter .
so he immediately incapacitates grievous by his force powers .
grievous has no force shield and he can´t protect himself from such powerful force user as dooku is .

this makes it 2v1 fight almost instantly .
dooku should be more skilled in saber combat and more powerful force user .
luke could take down ventress but he loses to more experienced dooku .
all luke has in this fight is his superior raw power but i doubt he could use it as well as anakin did in ROTS against dooku .

vader did not go all out against luke (at least in a sense he didn´t enraged himself enough)
he would not hesitate to unleash his full power and rage and go all out against dooku and would probably beat him .
he was not in this rage mind set against luke and that made him weaker .

if this was TLJ luke instead of ROTJ luke then he solos this team with relative ease .

I don't think Luke is equal to an all out Vader but he is close. If Vader was truly far superior in skill he could have easily avoided losing his hand in their ROTJ fight. Therefore, Luke vs Dooku should be a fairly even match. Grievous, on the other hand wins in legends without much trouble but gets stomped by Ventress in canon, they already breifly clashed in TCW and Ventress was clearly winning.

Legends: Team 1

Canon: Team 2

ROTJ luke , ROTJ vader and ROTS dooku are all in the same tier .
and they can hurt each other given the right circumstances .
but all out enraged vader is superior to them by a slight margin .

Going with Team 2 in Canon. Ventress is superior to Grievous, and I can see Luke's relative lack of experience being too much of a disadvantage against a tactical fighter like Dooku. In particular, he seemingly didn't know how to defend against lightning.

Well if you go by the Script, SN, and JN Luke did manage to deflect Palpatine's lightning for a short time with his hands. Even in the movie you can see there is point where the lightning is bouncing in all directions, which is a good indication Lucas didn't scrap the idea and Luke was deflecting them even in the Film:

If you will not be turned, you will be destroyed.

Blinding bolts of energy, evil lightning, shoot from the Emperor's

hands at Luke. Even in his surprise, the young Jedi tries to use the

Force to deflect them. At first he is half successful, but after a

moment the bolts of energy are coming with such speed and power the

young Jedi shrinks before them, his knees buckling. The wounded Vader

struggles to his feet, and moves to stand at his master's side.

~ RotJ Script

"Palpatine raised his spidery arms toward Luke: blinding white bolts of energy coruscated from his fingers, shot across the room like sorcerous lightning, and tore through the boy’s insides, looking for ground. The young Jedi was all at once confounded and in agony—he’d never heard of such a power, such a corruption of the Force, let alone experienced it. But if it was Force-generated, it could be Force-repelled. Luke raised his arms to deflect the bolts. Initially, he was successful—the lightning rebounded from his touch, harmlessly into the walls. Soon, though, the shocks came with such speed and power, they coursed over and into him, and he could only shrink before them, convulsed with pain, his knees buckling, his powers at ebb." ~ RotJ SN

@kilius: I'm talking canon only and so I'm not considering the novelizations. Admittedly, I'm not sure whether the script may be considered canon or not, though it does seem to contradict what we see on screen, as the first bolts are not redirected by Luke at all. The screenshot you provided has lightning bouncing in many directions. I can't say I'm convinced it had anything to do with Luke rather than how such power or real lightning works, but I'm open to the possibility that there might be something to it. That would bring the question, though, of why didn't Luke keep his lightsaber, which looks like a much easier way to block the lightning.

@rgr: its the script for the movie so it shoukd be treated the same as the movie.

@nerdchore: The Attack of the Clones script had Yoda disarming Dooku, jumping onto his shoulders and about to drive his lightsaber into the Count's head, then Dooku throwing Yoda to the ground before crushing the pillar over Obi-Wan and Anakin. IMO it's safe to say the scripts can't be canon where they contradict what happens on screen.

Yeah, Luke did deflect the lightning for a bit, but Sidious wasn't firing anything near his full power.

OT, Team 2. Dooku should carry Ventress to victory. Team 1 can win though since Grievous should be able to beat Ventress.

@rgr: in this case it didnt tho

Team 1 both rounds.

Why do you think Dooku is a more tactical fighter than Vader in the first place?

We've never seen the same creativity or the raw Force power from Dooku, which saved Vader many times on different occasions.

Dooku is the same stubborn guy who never changed his fighting style Makashi, and he never used any additional fighting style and his focus remained only at Makashi. Which cost him a lot, like losing against Savage's and Anakin's raw power, and Luke is no different in that regard. Luke dealt and even overpowered Vader's Djem-so which was superior to RotS Anakin's strength as of LotS.

Ventress is superior to Grievous, but not to the extend that she can simply stomp him. General can keep her very busy if he fights smart, he was simply too cocky at Dathomir.

@rgr:

The Disney Canon status of the novelizations is muddied yeah. If they haven't already, someone with authority really needs to step up and give this issue clarity once and for all; Del Rey, who's authority I question, is way to vague on the whole 'when it aligns with what is on screen'. I mean that could mean either of two things:

It could mean that everything that isn't literally in the Film, including deleted scenes or added internal narrative, or small bits of extra dialog or actions that could have conceivably happened offscreen are not considered canon.

Or it could just mean contradictions are non-canon, but added scenes and internal context that don't conflict with the film can still be considered valid, as is the case with the ST novels.

Either interpretation is plausible, but Del Rey refuses to clarify despite repeated requests

And no I don't think the scripts are canon in Disney, like it was with the old G-Canon system. But at the same time it shows the filmmakers intent. Even if Lucas no longer has authority, he still created RotJ, so his view point shouldn't be disregarded lightly.

As for Luke not using his lightsaber, it's simple: Luke didn't know the existence of lightning and wasn't prepared for the Emperor's assault. It was most likely a logical deduction on his part that anything created by the Force can be repelled with the Force and he was right.

@kilius: I asked Matt Martin a while ago. What I took from the conversation was that pre-Disney novelizations were not canon, and the new ones were except for the parts that contradicted the movies, such as Rey meeting Poe in the TFA novel.

@rgr:

Thanks for the info.

Still not really the direct answer I was hoping for, but I guess for now I'll consider them non-canon in Disney.

Legends: Luke solos. He’s kept up with the Emp and is stated to be the most powerful Force user ever. Grievous might solo with extreme difficulty. He can keep up with Jedi, and has killed dozens. He also can fight evenly with Kenobi, whereas Ventress cannot. Dooku is Grievous’ biggest problem, but even if he can’t solo, Luke’s still here.

Canon: I’m tempted to take team 2. Ventress should beat Grievous, since he was shafted in Canon. Dooku should be able to keep up with Luke while Ventress takes care of Grievous, allowing her to aid Dooku and finish off Luke. That being said, just like in Legends, Grievous fought evenly with Obi-wan; Ventess lost every time. Grievous could pull this off, and could then aid Luke with the Count. So probably still team 1, with much more difficulty.

Legends: Team 1

Canon: Team 2

@calebtb12: Luke solos. He’s kept up with the Emp and is stated to be the most powerful Force user ever.

This is RotJ Luke. The same Luke who's defenses were nigh-instantly overpowered by Sidious' lightning.

Grievous might solo with extreme difficulty.

Dooku alone is superior to Grievous. He isn't soloing Dooku+Ventress.

@dawn_of_ages: I was referencing EU. I thought the OP said we should give out opinions on on both. And yeah I do take back what I said about Grievous soloing, even in Legends. I think he easily downs Ventress, but Dooku ‘s the problem. Anyway to sum up my first post:

Legends: Team 1

Canon: Team 2

@calebtb12: I was referencing EU. I thought the OP said we should give out opinions on on both.

I was also referring to Legends. As I said, Legends RotJ already got wrecked by Sidious. Even as of DE, Luke was still inferior to Sidious.

@dawn_of_ages: True; but he’s still more than enough for these 2.

Team one should scrape a win

Dooku beating this version of Luke is highly debatable

Grevious should beat Ventress

@erkan12: Dooku outsmarted several opponents, so I just think Luke might pay for his relative inexperience, particularly defending against lightning, at least in canon. Some examples of Dooku's tactics:

-Crushing a pillar over Obi-Wan and Anakin in order to scape Yoda.

-After being disarmed by Ventress and the nightsisters, waiting for the exact moment of Ventress' attack to catch her off-guard with lightning.

-Although with prep, using lightning to incapacitate Savage while holding Ventress off.

-His little maneuver in Oba Diah to make Obi-Wan and Anakin Force-push the Pykes.

-Damaging the engines of the ship they were on, in order to throw Anakin off balance.

None of them helped him to defeat his enemies. He only escaped by using these tactics.

If you're saying that Dooku will escape from Luke after seeing that he can't defeat him, then yeah he could do that much.

As for Luke being able to deflect lightning with his lightsaber: Dave Filini's reasoning honestly just doesn't make much sense when you consider that AotC Kenobi and Tiplee were able to counter it on their first try without knowledge or training. I say it's reasonable someone more powerful in RotJ Luke who was already partly successful in repelling lightning with his hands could replicate that feat.

Team 1 FTW

You think Grievous beats the Count?

No. Legends Grievous probably beats Ventress.

If Luke gets Dooku and Grievous gets Ventress, I could see Grievous killing her, but I don't see Luke beating Dooku. He'll put up a good fight, that's for certain, but if Luke dies to Dooku and Ventress dies to Grievous, I'm pretty sure Dooku would beat Grievous with relative ease since he knows everything about Grievous' style and would know how to counter it. So yeah, I'm going with the Count and Ventress.

@insanity_: Ventress did beat Grievous in TCW without even using Force attacks, and then Filoni had this to say on the matter:

"You can just sit and watch that scene and watch in the background while Ventress tries to get away all of these zombies attacking Grievous. And he actually comes out on kind of the upside of it, which is good. A lot of people liked that, that he wasn't easily trumped. I still don't believe that, at this point -- one-to-one -- that Grievous could really take out someone like Ventress in a lightsaber fight."

@rgr:

People argue Ventress was amped by Darthamir's nexus, which in-universe would be true, but at the same time I seriously doubt the makers were factoring that in when they wrote the scene. I mean Grievous already nearly lost to Eeth Koth and Kit Fisto. In Canon Grievous isn't meant to be such a formidable fighter like his legends counterpart, who has statements putting him above Ventress; and a showing where he beat both her and Durge at the same time.

@kilius: Yeah, that would somewhat make sense for Legends, where Grievous is much more dangerous. I don't think the show creators were thinking of that either, given Filoni's words. In Disney canon, I would assume Dathomir doesn't amp Force users combatively, apart from Nightsisters' magicks that is.

You mean he kicked Koth's ass before Koth force pushed him and gained a slight upper hand. Koth didn't win.

As for his fight with Fisto there's already been an extensive blog on the matter.

https://comicvine.gamespot.com/profile/wollfmyth209/blog/star-wars-misconceptions-kit-fisto-vs-general-grie/129533/

OT-Not fully sure. I'd probably give it slightly to team 2.

@arkhamasylum3:

Koth was shot in the arm and surrounded by Magnaguards. Then he was cheapshot from behind when he rushed Grievous while the cyborg was stunned.

Also Adi Gallia who was basically one shot by Grievous in a Legends comic, put up a good fight against him and even gained the advantage and kicked him, during their clashes in TCW.

I've read the blog and disagreed with it. I won't get into an extensive response like Lord Tene(one of the few things we kind of sort of agree on I guess) but I think it's pretty clear from the episode itself Fisto had a slight upper hand hence the statement from Grievous(how quickly does power change hands). I will agree with Wollf however that Grievous isn't as technically skilled as his Legends counterpart. I seriously doubt OCW, LoE, or RotS Grievous would lose to these guys, as he is much more skilled and formidable than his Canon counterpart.

@kilius: Never argued canon Grievous was comparable to Legends Grievous but I feel like he gets lowballed a bit too much.

@arkhamasylum3: Grievous didn't kick Koth's ass, he only stalemated him while Koth had an injured arm. When Koth pushed him, he had Grievous on the floor and was going for the kill, forcing the Magnaguards to intervene, so not sure where you're getting this "slight upper hand" either.

Tbh he's inconsistent.

He fights evenly with Kenobi(more to do with physicals than technical skill IMO, but I digress), but against everyone else he usually gets the short end of the stick.

Team 2. Grievous, Ventress and Luke are all on a similar level, give or take. Any encounter between the three will be hard-fought and enduring. On the other hand, Dooku has previously defeated Grievous with moderate difficulty, and in their sparring sessions, he was only pressed occasionally. I similarly favor him over Luke, whom he has decades of experience and mastery on. Decent fight.

Pushing Koth does not equal gaining an upper hand?

Also Koth having an injuired arm isn't the draining injuiry everyone makes it out to be. It wasn't even his sbaer arm IIRC and this thing called adreniline exists.

Also yes Koth gained an upper hand at the end except just because Grievous was on the floor doesn't mean he would have lost.

@arkhamasylum3: It was his fighting arm.

He already deflected Force lightning from Jorus C'baoth only 5 years after the RotJ, I highly doubt he did make any special Force lightning deflection training after the RotJ.