- Knightfall Vader prime
- Luke cant use the dark side like he did against Vader in ROTJ
- Only can use the force to augment their physical abilities
- All canon feats for them can be used up to the point of the versions being used in this battle.
- Fight to the death
Luke Skywalker(Mandalorian) vs Darth Vader(ROTS) Sabers Only
By the time of ROTJ, Vader is more powerful than he was as of ROTS. Luke beat him, there was some context, but they should be pretty close at that point, 5 years have passed since then though. Logically Luke should be better than ROTJ Vader now so this is a clear W for Luke.
ROTJ Luke is not far beneath ROTS Anakin, although the latter has the former beat in all aspects. Luke by the point of Mando S2 should be above Ani. He wins.
Feel like this is just gunna devolve into a ROTJ Luke vs ROTJ Vader debate of how handicapped Vader was in that fight.
For me ROTJ Luke is a ways below Vader still, and should be a ways below ROTS Anakin.
But then he has an extra 5 years of growth until mando. Problem is he has barely any feats from that period. His Mando stuff was cool, but nothing Anakin couldn’t easily replicate, and he didn’t seem particularly strained. So the problem here is we have very little to go off of as far as how much stronger Luke has become over those 5 years.
Logically I’d say these two should be fairly closely matched at this point but I can’t really call it one way or the other based on the info we have so far.
Vader has the advantage of fighting during the clone wars when the standard for force users were superior compared to the Rebels-ROTJ timeline which Filoni himself talked about: Star Wars Rebels Season 2 Press Conference - YouTube, without utilizing the force, Knightfall Vader wins the majority 9 out of 10.
Vader has the advantage of fighting during the clone wars when the standard for force users were superior compared to the Rebels-ROTJ timeline which Filoni himself talked about: Star Wars Rebels Season 2 Press Conference - YouTube, without utilizing the force, Knightfall Vader wins the majority 9 out of 10.
I just noticed this was KFV. I agree, he should narrowly take it. Base ROTS Anakin definitely loses to this version of Luke, though
Hard to say who would win.
Vader was defeated in a specific context Luke was no more powerful than his father if Vader had abused Force, Luke would have been destroyed. Mandolorian is set five years after ROTJ Luke has probably become more powerful but it is not possible to establish how much Luke's power and skills have increased between ROTJ and Mandolorian.
Luke stomp Dark Troopers more any level jedi master should be able to do the same. Anakin of the fourth season of Clone wars would destroy Dark troopers as well any version of Vader would do the same.
Considering what was shown by both characters and considering Anakin totally focused on the Dark side not in conflict Anakin Vader would win but that could change in the future if luke shows new feats
Both Vader AND Luke were holding back
Stop using the context inherent in their duel only against Luke when that context applies to both. What is more telling however is that unlike Luke in the beginning of the duel, we KNOW that Vader is the one more than willing to harm his opponent, NOT Luke. Yet they are evenly matched and Vader can’t overcome his son.
Luke wasn’t sent there by Obi-Wan and Yoda to redeem Vader but to defeat him and yet this fact is never brought up . This is why Luke’s decision at the end of the movie is so poignant because he ALONE decides to believe in his Father. If Luke had zero chance of beating Vader and beating Vader without using the Darkside and potentially fallling ,Yoda and Obi-Wan wouldnt have sent him there.
The narrative that Vader would’ve easily beaten Luke if he was unhindered isn’t supported in the film nor in Canon and needs to die
Luke stomp Dark Troopers more any level jedi master should be able to do the same.
no most jedi masters would have died to those darktroopers. ki adi mundi died to like 7 clones, and darktroopers>>>clones. the armor on the darktroopers is impervious to blasters, and likely resistant to lightsabers, like the blast doors in TPM. it likely takes great force augmented strength to actually cut them in half like luke did, probably savage+ level.
ROTJ Luke already beat a superior version of Vader and he did it before he got angry too, did you guys forget how he knocked his ass flat off those stairs and made Palps giggle from excitement?
Anyway, ROTJ Luke would beat any version of Vader. Grandmaster Luke with years of extra training is overkill.
Luke has no feats comparable to Vader in the use of force, it is headcanon to say that Luke could compete or surpass Vader in the use of force in the shown Luke would be destroyed, Vader surpasses him in power and ability by a large margin Vader feats are much better than Luke feats and Luke himself said in Mandolorian that power is nothing without training!
The fact is that Luke(ROTJ) didn't show dominance in the Force comparable to a Jedi master level, much less a sith lord of the Vader level.
Darktroopers are not much better than droids which Jedi masters destroyed in clone wars. To say that darktroopers' armor is resistant to lightsaber is a headcanon
@thoromdil: A superior Vader? lol, he was an old crippled man close to death, in the timeline 4 ABY. So luke beating him is not as impressive as many make it to be. ROTS Knightfall Vader is only slightly behind with the force compared to ROTJ Vader, but a lot more dangerous with his lightsaber. Luke at this point is only a jedi knight, ROTS Anakin is at the same level as a master since he killed Dooku and more or less stalemated Obi-Wan on Mustafar.
ROTJ Luke already beat a superior version of Vader and he did it before he got angry too, did you guys forget how he knocked his ass flat off those stairs and made Palps giggle from excitement?
Anyway, ROTJ Luke would beat any version of Vader. Grandmaster Luke with years of extra training is overkill.
LMAO.
Luke has no feats comparable to Vader in the use of force, it is headcanon to say that Luke could compete or surpass Vader in the use of force in the shown Luke would be destroyed, Vader surpasses him in power and ability by a large margin Vader feats are much better than Luke feats and Luke himself said in Mandolorian that power is nothing without training!
The fact is that Luke(ROTJ) didn't show dominance in the Force comparable to a Jedi master level, much less a sith lord of the Vader level.
Darktroopers are not much better than droids which Jedi masters destroyed in clone wars. To say that darktroopers' armor is resistant to lightsaber is a headcanon
This. Vader stomp.
. Where are people getting this idea of that Vader is basically a cripple in return of the Jedi? I feel like this is based off of old George Lucas statements and 1983 choreography.
Vader is still in his prime. In fact the most recent comics that take place in between empire strikes back and return of the Jedi quite literally show Vader strengthening his connection with the force and strengthening his will. it, but there's plenty of Canon evidence.
Also, Luke has Anakin's potential. Why is this ignored? He inherited his father's potential without the toxic personality traits that turned Anakin to the dark side. In addition, by the will of the Force Luke was the main catalyst that ended the empire and ended the Sith. Something no previous Jedi could ever do. Luke's defeat of Vader, along with Vader's clear level of power, along with Luke's legend, and his accomplishments clearly puts him among the top tier forest users in the galaxy.
I don't know about return of the Jedi Luke beating any Vader. However, I do believe that Luke Skywalker 5 years after the return of the Jedi defeats any version of Darth Vader.
For the record, I think the most powerful combatant in all of Canon Star Wars was Anakin when he killed count Dooku. Anakin tapped into his potential and simply willed himself to kill count to Dooku. That Anakin can defeat absolutely anyone, including Luke, Yoda, even sidious. I think that brief moment was the closest thing we've gotten to live action mortis Anakin
@drunkhc: . I just want to point something out. It's quite possible that they are. If you rewatch the scene, there is a moment when Luke strikes one of the dark troopers with his lightsaber and it does nothing. It was resistive to his blade. He directed his focus elsewhere and then returned to that same dark trooper and sliced its head off. I mean they spent the entire episode showing how durable they are.
@chewbacca: bro do you even realize how many awesome high tier feats Vader has at the point of ROTJ? And he is not old, give me a break he was 45 yo when he died, that's almost 10 years younger than Mace when he died, and his ROTS version is agreed to be his far strongest. ROTJ Vader has all the feats and experience, but is NOT old yet by any means. He would school his knightfall version, force, sabers and all. KF has no feats at all outside of beating Dralig and a bunch of padawans.
In any case, ROTJ Luke became far more powerful than Vader ever was and that was made very clear in the story. For Grandmaster Luke that's a warmup at best.
@thoromdil:The actor who portrayed Vader, when Luke took his mask off before he passed away was old, not Anakin himself at 45. If ROTJ Vader is as strong as you are saying, then Luke is also way more powerful than i give him credit for. It would be very fascinating to see Luke meet up with Ahsoka, in Mandalorian season 3 or her own series to see them talk about Anakin/Vader?
@chewbacca: whatcha mean IF he is as strong? I'm not making up this stuff, just google it. Just read a canon Vader respect thread and compare it to KF Vader's/pre suit Anakin's. There is no comparing these two. ROTJ Vader is leagues ahead in feats, this is not really debatable, this is just how these two were written.
"Father and son were now equally strong with the Force, and equally skilled with their lightsabers."
-Jedi vs. Sith (2016)
No it's not just "headcanon', ROTJ Luke could win this fight let alone this version.
@thoromdil: I got scolding for adopting such a philosophy. Narrative trumps feats. The story tells us Luke became one of, if not the greatest Jedi in the history of the galaxy. The canon source material tells us Vader grew more powerful than his ROTS counterpart (though weaker than his godlike potential). The story tells us Luke defeated this Vader. The story tells us Luke grew more powerful. And again, the story tells us that Luke became the greatest Jedi in the galaxy/the most important force user in the galaxy.
The story tells you enough. You don't need to dive into feats. The entire fictional canon universe makes it clear that Luke Skywalker, and Yoda are the greatest Jedi in the history of the order. And based off of the clear canon narrative, Luke, Yoda, Vader and Sideous are the most powerful force weilders in the galaxy.
ROTS Anakin, KF Vader, Windu, Obi Wan lose to Luke by default. Feats aren't even necessary when the story tells us the answer.
@grinningf0x: Exactly man, multiple canon sources state they are even in dueling.
Luke wins 8/10. ROTJ Luke is canonically confirmed to be equal with Prime Vader’s dueling prowess. Which is factually superior to pre-suit Vader.
Luke wins mid-high diff
I was impressed by the new choreography in regards to Luke’s seamless use of force powers meshing with dueling skill. Force pull into a strike already swung, force push as a conclusion to a strike on a separate opponent. Was pretty impressive...we haven’t had a lot of that seen (some from Maul etc). Too often we observe a Jedi or Sith pausing to awkwardly use an ability. I give Luke solid majority.
@chewbacca: Yeah, I hope you realize how powerful ROTJ Luke is. He was equal to Vader. Anyways, yeah I’m really looking forward to seeing Luke meet Ahsoka.
In new Canon, Vader evolved in both skill and power past any pre-suit version of himself.
Knightfall Vader is no longer Ani's prime. It is something in between Rebels Vader and ROTJ Vader.
Anyway, it is unclear how far Luke has improved since then but given that he could somewhat contest with his father by the time of ROTJ, he has good chances to be strong enough now to beat Vader.
It is not quite clear but I would place my bets on Luke here.
Well as much sense as it shouldn't make, Disney has suited Vader above KFV. ROTJ Luke beat suited Vader, sure he was holding back but so was Luke.
5-6 years on power increase should put him well above Vader, who's above KFV in canon.
Wait so ROTJ Luke with another five years in experience??
Yeah he wins
I’m pretty sure in canon Vader was stated to be better than Anakin and by ROTJ, Luke was his equal and Mando Luke should be much better.
Luke should take this
Well, ROTJ Vader is steonger than he was in ROTS and Luke beat him. So it is utterly possible for this Luke to defeat him.
Still, will give it to Vader by a narrow margin.
This isn't ESB Luke, who was a noob. This isn't RotJ Luke, who needed a dark side amp to truly overcome Vader. This is Mando Luke, who took on at least as many dark troopers are Vader did rebels in his hallway scene and beat them faster. This is the Luke who outperformed Vader against superior opponents.
Luke>Rogue One Vader>RotS Vader. Luke wins.
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