Luffy vs Itachi

@limitlesssigil:

This is completely wrong lol, it puts the target in a visual illusion as evident when Luffy was still being attacked by other members of the Charlotte family, it was only his sight that was messed up and yet he wasn't able to do anything about it.

No Mont D'or closes the book just before Luffy gets attacked thus transporting him out. He even refers to it as a whole different place, the "World of Books" and we see later that his books indeed have pocket dimensions inside.

Gallery

That isn't what I meant and you know it, Luffy has no feats of fighting whilst receiving false input (Illusions) from every other one of his senses, this would require him to literally ignore/block all of his senses which he's never shown to be capable of.

Well any other sense besides sight is hardly relevant in a fight anyway, so if CoO allows him to make out Itachi's aura without relying on his sight that's enough.

@limitlesssigil:

this would require him to literally ignore/block all of his senses which he's never shown to be capable of.

Cough cough

Itachi wins.

@blackwizzard17 said:

@limitlesssigil:

this would require him to literally ignore/block all of his senses which he's never shown to be capable of.

Cough cough

That technique turns Luffy into a vegetable and he's unable to attack

Cough cough

How do you figure that? I don't really see it happening unless he manages to seal him.

@streak619:

What feats does Katakuri have?

I guess you haven't been on Discord lately. We found that the explosion outrunning feat gives base Luffy micro second reactions. Katakuri was blitzing a much faster version of Luffy

Which is defined by? If it is anything exclusive to the OPverse then it is irrelevant, if not Naruto probably has it.

We discussed this before, Naruto life force doesn't include emotions while OP spiritual sensing does. Show me people sensing both emotions and auras and strength of the opponent in Naruto with one ability.

@limitlesssigil:

That is the illusion... He makes it look like they're inside a book,

Illusions mean something that's actually not there, in his case we know for a fact there are actual, tangible things existing inside his books and his ability has repeatedly been referred to as a pocket dimension, having an entire "world" inside books.

there is 0 evidence to suggest he teleport's people into a pocket dimension.

Um he does exactly that to all those rare species and Luffy and Nami. We see Luffy and Nami speaking to Mama from inside an actual prison cell within the book, and its also stated that people inside his books do not age. You think you can "illusion" someone to make them actually not age?

ou're not understanding at all... To make this simple, show feats of CoO resisting TP/Illusion based attacks.

Genjutsu is an illusion which manipulates the 5 senses, Luffy has proven he can fight while blinded relying entirely on CoO, ergo he can see past the illusion and blitz Itachi even if he is in an illusion. CoO won't allow him to "resist" per se, just "see" past it, what's hard about that?

@shirso:

Genjutsu is an illusion which manipulates the 5 senses, Luffy has proven he can fight while blinded relying entirely on CoO, ergo he can see past the illusion and blitz Itachi even if he is in an illusion. CoO won't allow him to "resist" per se, just "see" past it, what's hard about that?

You realize Itachi can put people in comas or just make them feel endless torture within a second right? Seeing through the illusion is the least of Luffy's problems.

Using calcs to skyrocket Luffy's speed is dumb. Calcs are BS at a certain point when it's clear the writer doesn't have those numbers in mind.

Luffy isn't blitzing people with triple digit mach reactions or even coming close.

@sy8000: I can't calc Luffy's speed from an actual on panel feat he had? I can play the same author intent card with every feat in every series ever

You can calc feats all you want. The validity is what's in question.

Indeed you can play the author intent cause. It's case by case really. If there are other, clear cut feats in the series to support that level then, the author probably either did have that number in mind or wouldn't mind it. Calcs should never be the basis for skyrocketing a series to a level which they have no logical precedence for being at. To put it this way, if a feat is so good that every other feat in the series gets completely ignored in discussions, I'd raise my eyebrows at it.

For that matter you're calcing off a vague feat where you can't even objectively prove the time Luffy started moving. That's flimsy evidence to wank off of.

@sy8000:

Indeed you can play the author intent cause. It's case by case really. If there are other, clear cut feats in the series to support that level then, the author probably either did have that number in mind or wouldn't mind it. Calcs should never be the basis for skyrocketing a series to a level which they have no logical precedence for being at. To put it this way, if a feat is so good that every other feat in the series gets completely ignored in discussions, I'd raise my eyebrows at it.

The feat comes directly after a time skip, its obviously going to be much above anything that came before. And Brook who is absolute fodder to people like Luffy can react to lightning from a few meters, I don't see what's so inconsistent about the high tiers being quad machs at this stage.

For that matter you're calcing off a vague feat where you can't even objectively prove the time Luffy started moving. That's flimsy evidence to wank off of.

We know he was completely untouched by the explosion, we know the explosives were sticking to his clothes, meaning he couldn't have moved before it detonated (you can't "outrun" something that's literally sticking to you), ergo he moved before the explosion covered the length of his cloth, what's vague about that?

Infinite suckitYoMe? Perfect sueSandOh? Yeah galaxy level itouchme prep lord wins.

Neg dif

Sharingan Genjutsu does way more than illusions lol, especially when we’re referring to itachi.

He could put Luffy to sleep or outright kill him if he wished with his genjutsu.

@ourmanuel: I know but the CoO vs Genjutsu discussion was more of a tangent, I think Luffy just blitzes him.

If he’s above lightning speed then yeah.

@shirso:

The feat comes directly after a time skip, its obviously going to be much above anything that came before. And Brook who is absolute fodder to people like Luffy can react to lightning from a few meters, I don't see what's so inconsistent about the high tiers being quad machs at this stage.

There are plenty of feats from after the timeskip who was above everything before. Dodging Pacifista lasers, Red Hawk and meteors, basically everything Doflamingo did. None of them suggest microsecond level speed.

Stop trying to scale Brook to Luffy when we have an actual statement from Oda that Brook is fastest.

We know he was completely untouched by the explosion, we know the explosives were sticking to his clothes, meaning he couldn't have moved before it detonated (you can't "outrun" something that's literally sticking to you), ergo he moved before the explosion covered the length of his cloth, what's vague about that?

We don't know if he slipped out before or after they started detonating. We don't even know if he was completely untouched considering an explosion like that wouldn't have done shit without hitting dead on.

Luffy was also mid air.

In character Itachi is probably going to genjutsu gg right off the bat. Luffy would win if you don't factor that in, but it's likely going to end with him being put to sleep.

@sy8000:

Well at this rate basically any speed feat that doesn't conform to your idea of how fast the verse is (which from what I can see is barely high hypersonic) would be dismissed I suppose.

I can mention Aokiji's flash freeze and Boundman blitzing Doffy from a city block away as examples of near quad mach or high end MHS speeds, but you'd dismiss them as "outlier" or "calc stacking".

I can bring up the numerous lightning timing feats from pre skip, but they'd be dismissed again as "inconsistent"

I can show Rayleigh intercepting Kizaru's light form or the very existence of Kizaru himself as evidence as to where the verse's top tiers should lie, but let me guess they'd be dismissed as "Omg lol at anyone in the verse being relativistic"

I am pretty sure if Kaido gets an actual quantifiable quad machs feat next chapter, you would again dismiss it as "outlier" and when I bring up the Punk Hazard feat as evidence that characters tiers below him are that fast you'd dismiss them as "you can't justify one outlier with another"

That's just about every major speed feat dismissed.

So what's left I wonder? The meteorite feat? That's low triple digits at best and I am sure you would still lowball it by saying how fodder Marines saw it coming and say it's an "outlier" in any case since all that's left is Red Hawk (maybe high hypersonic), Sanji's Diable Jambe (maybehypersonic) and some bullet timing feats from early pre skip I suppose.

I guess the only explicit quantifiable feat that's left is probably Luffy failing to react to 220 km/h Gazelleman which would make him sub sonic in which case I wonder what you are even doing in this thread since you probably believe Itachi is a lightning timer or something. So why even debate, just call the mods and lock this mismatch, subsonic Luffy with "outlier" quad mach feats is a statue to lightning timer Itachi.

Btw,

Stop trying to scale Brook to Luffy when we have an actual statement from Oda that Brook is fastest.

Oda specifically said Brook is the fastest in a 50 metre race. You must also think Thor is MFTL in combat and reactions I suppose.

And if you truly believe Brook has faster combat speed than Luffy, then your reading comprehension is shit (though that's established from how you interpreted that SBS anyway) as is your opinion regarding the series in general.

itachi destroys any OP character 1 vs 1

The Itachi wank never ceases to amaze he's a terrific character but the fanboys ruin that for me.

Luffy blitzes and oneshots.

Ot: Luffy still blitzes and one shots by being tiers above lightning timing. The next time any biased Naruto fanboy calls perfectly good feats "outliers" I am going to ask them what other feats besides Karin does Itachi have that puts him at lightning timing and why a "lightning" bolt shaped like a dragon should be considered natural in the first place.

@streak619: The micro second thing comes from looking at Luffy's reactions not his movement speed. He reacted and moved away before an explosion that was on his clothes moved the distance from his clothes to his skin. That's reacting in micro seconds.

Are you still not on the server?

No one said a dragon shaped lightning bolt was natural, just that the lightning of the dragon was natural. There's a difference.

@streak619: He moved away and outpaced the explosion the moment the explosives sticking to his clothes detonated. You can move through fire completely unharmed if you are fast enough. And I checked even the thickness of the thickest fabrics is like only 0.03 cm, so its irrefutably micro second timing no matter how much you lowball the explosion's speed.

The distance between the goo and the clothes was zero. So when you use the thickness of the clothes as distance travelled, you're implying the clothes would be destroyed.

Also 0.0003m/mach3 is in the nanosecond tier. Are you saying Luffy is low end quint mach in base?

@streak619: Well the clothes weren't destroyed so he moved away before the explosion did anything to the clothes but by taking the thickness of the clothes as the distance I am assuming a low end.

Edit: Yeah if we took the actual explosion speed from Mr I's paper and the thickness of the cloth it would become low double nano seconds lol but micro second is more consistent considering other feats like Aokiji's flash freeze and Boundman blitzing Doffy from a city block

Itachi, because blitz or not the moment he steps on the battlefield and there's an enemy, his first action is to put them in a Genjutsu, visual or not. I doubt that Luffy would blitz the moment the imaginary "FIGHT" words appear onscreen.

Ah, the solo memes

It’s literally stated to be natural lighting speed.

@ourmanuel: It was stated it takes natural lightning takes 1 mili second to reach ground from the clouds but I have several issues with the feat which I can tell you in a PM if you want since it would derail the thread.

In any case I don't particularly mind the feat being used to argue Itachi as a lightning timer, I just don't like the double standard.

Uh no, it was explicitly stated that Kirin was natural lightning:

@streak619:

Yeah what I'm saying is, the fact that his clothes were completely normal despite the goo sticking to him contradicts him dodging after it exploded.

Well even if the goo was on his clothes there would be some cellular scale separation between it and the fabric I guess which would give him time to outpace it after it detonates. He can't "outpace" it before it detonates of course because it is sticking to his clothes, he would simply carry the goo with him.

As even you agreed before, this feat's insane, realistically, Luffy probably moved before the explosion could cover the separation between the goo and his clothes' fabric (which should be something, no matter how small), but I am taking the low end with taking the thickness of his cloth since that's more consistent and an objective minimum.

I mean, microsecond would be more consistent but it is double digit nanosecond tier, by your own numbers, which even you would agree is massively inconsistent for base Luffy.

Well the shockwave is Mach 3 but the flame speed of the explosion is like sub sonic so we can say the shockwave may have hit him slightly but didn't do any visible damage while the flame definitely didn't touch him since then we would see his clothes burnt. This would still give him micro second timing , so from all angles (consistency, numbers, taking heavy low ends and all) I think him being a micro second timer is the fairest and most consistent estimate

@streak619:

Yeah Caesar tells the goo to wrap around him and in the next panel we see it wrapped around his mid section completely with no gaps.

Not really no. There are only 3 options. Either we assume the distance was zero which would make the feat nonsensical or we say there was cellular level distances and put Luffy at relativistic.

There is no option where you get microsecond tier.

Hey if you want to argue he is relativistic be my guest lol, he does have multiple relativistic statements before this you know.

The citation for the flames being sub sonic is in Mr I's paper.

@shirso said:

You kinda missed the point. You're assuming impossible values for the sake of consistency to avoid the contradictions in this feat and it being called an outlier.

@streak619: Fun fact: it wouldn't technically be an outlier because as I said he has multiple LS statements before this and there are no anti feats, neither does any of the other quad machs feats I named like Aokiji's flash freeze show the characters' limits at all,not to mention Luffy actually trained with a guy over the time skip who actually has an on panel relativistic feat casually. Btw his trainer Rayleigh also said Luffy learnt everything he had to teach him in just 1 and a half years.

Also so what do you suggest, completely disregard the first major speed feat he gets after the time skip simply because its much better than you think the verse should be at?

And there's no impossible values at all, I can say his cloth is 0.03 cm and he moved away before the sub sonic flame could burn through it. You know you don't instantly burn when you come in contact with fire.

@streak619:

So do you believe base luffy is relativistic?

I don't, you do apparently

Exactly, it's what we call an outlier.

If we pulled the "outlier" card on any series which gets a massive jump after a time skip Toriko and DBZ wouldn't exist

No but clothes don't come out unscathed from zero distance point blank range small building level explosions, I can sure as hell tell you that.

Actually we see his clothes and face very lightly singed in the anime and even in the manga so we can say it just started to burn his clothes but he escaped before it could move the entire distance so we take the average between micro seconds and double digit nano seconds if you prefer that or in my case the low end which is micro second. That should end this whole thing.

@streak619:

That was due to another explosion that happened prior. in the first page.

Both explosions had some effect. You are the one saying the second didn't even touch him at all to prove its an outlier lol when what I said earlier is what's probably happened (it just started burning him then he escaped)

Moving out of the way before the explosion could partially move through 0.03 cm would still be sub-relativistic.

No a flame moving at sonic speed would take almost 900 ns or nearly 1 micro second to cross 0.03 cm, which is not far from what I originally took the feat for ( 1ms) and isn't sub relativistic. I am fine if you want to take it at some value between 500-900 ns since that isn't far from what I put the feat myself