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#1 Edited by Jacthripper (14983 posts) - - Show Bio

Welcome to the Match!

Feelin' Lucky? Step into the ring! Fight for glory, honor, and whatever else you feel like! The concept for this tournament is simple. You begin with one character. Every time you win around, you add one man to your team until the end of the tournament. In the first round you would have one character, in the second round you would have two, in the third round you would have three, and in the final round you would have four.

For any further clarifications for the rules, here is the original thread.

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@DedmanWalkin- Morgan Yu

vs

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@nervedamage- Moon Knight (Earth-616)

Fight takes place inside the Wayne Manor

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#2 Posted by DedmanWalkin (4192 posts) - - Show Bio

@nervedamage

Been awhile since I have done this so I'll start with the basics.

Introduction

Morgan Yu is a scientist, first and foremost, and most of her gear is actually tools and science equipment that have been repurposed for combat. During the Typhon outbreak aboard Talos 1, she used her scientific knowledge, tactical skill, and the environment to help her not only survive the literal nightmare but escape it. She has seen the dark heart of the universe and didn't flinch. Despite having a literal utility belt worth of gadgets to choose from, she is also undergone physical and mental enhancements that expand her already impressive ability list to almost ridiculous.

There really is no way for Moon Knight to win here. Moon Knight likely has the combat skill advantage over Morgan lacks the tactical acumen and the outright power to win here. First, we'll talk about what equipment Morgan has here that will make this battle unfair.

The Psychoscope

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The Psychoscope is a device invented by Morgan that can detect a variety of forms of energy and keep track of there location. Once an energy pattern has been identified, it can be marked and tracked anywhere it goes. Basically, once Moon Knight has entered into view of the Psychoscope, stealth is 100% not an option for MK. In addition, it can be modified to perform a wide variety of detection and psionic enhancement.

Recycler Charge

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Creates a small singularity that will draw in matter and then converts that matter into its base components. It has about the range of a standard grenade and works on exotic matter. Even Moon Knight's carbonadium armor, will not protect him here. You'd need above MK-level strength to resist the singularities pull.

TransStar Uniform

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Outside of providing significant protection from physical hazards, the TransStar uniform is fully space capable and can be heavily modified to perform an array of functions using Chipsets like the following.

RECYCLER SHIELDING (*) 19.4GHZ

This Chipset generates an inverse frequency that cancels out the effects of a Recycler Charge.

This equipment is all I really need for this battle in addition to the following power.

Mimic Matter

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With mimic matter, Morgan can change her body into any object she chooses temporarily. It does appear the lower limit is a coffee cup and the higher limit is large-ish box. While mimicking this matter, Morgan can move herself even if said object has no form of locomtion and even perform advanced mechanical functions of the object that has been mimicked. It is the ultimate stealth tool, outside of a Psychoscope or Nullwave Transmitter or just hitting every object you come across, there is no way to determine if an object is the actual object or is being mimicked. MK has no way to find Morgan if she has chosen to mimic an object.

The Strategy

It is simple really, Morgan finds a tactically advantageous position and makes a ruckus. Morgan then mimics an object and waits. When Moon Knight gets in visual range, he marks him with the Psychoscope. He then maneuvers as close as possible, transforms, pulls the trigger on the recycler charge and hugs Moon Knight. The recycler goes off and kills Moon Knight leaving Morgan completely untouched and with some extra fabrication material. There is nothing in Moon Knight's arsenal, skill set, or power set that would allow him to predict this strategy, or counter this strategy. It is so far outside the norm that no one would be ready for it.

A head on battle

But let's make it interesting, let's say that this is more of a heads on battle without the advantage of being a mansion packed to the gills with stuff to mimic.

Morgan is not without the ability to fight directly, her Neuromods have augmented her physicals to be on par with Moon Knight if not in excess. However, Morgan would never let this become about who can punch the other the hardest, she is a scientist afterall. So, she'd be using her iconic GLOO Cannon to keep him at a distance. The GLOO Cannon fires projectiles that explode into big balls of a powerfully sticky substance that is strong enough to seal a hull rupture and support the weight of a human but can be disintegrated fairly easily. Using the GLOO Cannon, Morgan can alter the the battlefield making moving far more difficult. Should Moon Knight use his Crescents or whatever, Morgan can deploy Backlash, a telekinetic barrier that reflects physical impacts back to their source. This barrier only lasts for 3 attacks until it needs to be reactivated. Eventually, Moon Knight will get hit with the GLOO Cannon and eventually rendered immobile. At which point, Morgan pulls out the Q-Beam and pumps him full of energy until he bursts.

Conclusion

Moon Knight brings nothing to table that even remotely would score him a win here. Morgan is smarter, more powerful, and better armed. In this environment, there is especially no way for Moon Knight to score a Victory against Morgan.

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#3 Posted by Nervedamage (837 posts) - - Show Bio

Sorry for the wait, had family business to attend to.

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#5 Edited by Nervedamage (837 posts) - - Show Bio

@deadmanwalking I'm going to use Vol 3 and up for this one. Sorry that took so long. stupid site won't save my post and kept losing all my progress I was actually a inch away from giving up my determination kept me from giving up. 5 hous that was wasted

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Moon Knight (Marc Spector)

Marc has been it all, a boxer, a veteran, a vigilante hero. He's been through it all and seen it all. He's hard to take down and is much akin to a pit bull who won't let go of the bite, savage and brutal but get the job done. You say he doesn't have a chance while I say he does in fact and can easily pull a victory quite handily. The problem with him is that he's heavily underestimated and with the equipment he has he can turn this battle in his favor. There is no way Morgan is going to pull that one, Marc, it's just not possible for someone of that caliber and also reasons that I will get to later on.

Speed/Reflexes

There is nothing in Moon Knight's arsenal, skill set, or power set that would allow him to predict this strategy, or counter this strategy. It is so far outside the norm that no one would be ready for it.

While what you say is true, it is indeed outside the norm to present yourself to him in such a manner, oh wait it isn't. He's been through similar situations and got out of it, hugging him from behind is a bad idea.

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He's also able to react in such a split second, able to time bullets at point blank, he can break out of the hug and kick morgan at a further away distance for the charge to not affect him, the charge does indeed have a limit radius so him kicking Morgan off of him over a meter under a second isn't outside his possibility from reasons shown above. Also, Morgan has to be in their human form to mark Marc with the Psychoscope and trigger the charge, do they not? This would mean that Morgan is going to have to sneak up behind him which is rather difficult for them to since Marc is adapt to hearing the slightest of sounds even for his standard, then transformed in a cup or a chair and when Marc notice he won't think twice as to blitz the object and stomp it out then continue to beat Morgan within the inch of their life.

Strength/Endurance/Durability

Marc's strength is too much for the poor gal, Marc would simply one-shot her, he was able to break concrete while kicking someone at his weakest. He's able to tussle with machines, cyborgs and enhanced super soldiers. He's resortful and is more than willing to hit below the belt when he needs to. Secondly, he can take a massive ass-whipping and still put up a fight, still being able to hold is own against super powered beings and exploit their weakness, this fight isn't too far from this. and once this gets hand to hand in this case it will, Morgan is going to be without options and will exhaust herself, then Marc will go for the killing blow. What Morgan can do in h2h is nothing new. Marc's Kevlar armor is more than enough for this fight.

During his free time, Marc has trained in simulations against many scenarios, and he manages to pull through. He's more than prepared for this.

No Stealth? No Problem!

once Moon Knight has entered into view of the Psychoscope, stealth is 100% not an option for MK

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Come on now! When was Marc ever stealthy? He wears a bloody white suit in the middle of the knight with a moon-shaped cape, jumping around the rooftops like a maniac, if anything he's more flamboyant than stealthy xD

But with the jokes aside.

He let's his present be known, though knowing where your opponent is one thing that is more advantageous for Morgan, I can't really counter that, except with one thing, this fight doesn't become a game of hide n' seek even though Moon Knight is pretty damn good at it, but Marc could turn this battle into something more. While the monsters and phantoms that Morgan fight seem powerful in nature, they are nothing more than a mindless entity with much intelligence in their arsenal other than mimic objects and such. Marc is more than that, he can set traps so that when Morgan follows him, they'll have to deal with that. literally turning the gadgets against them. The tracker doesn't show much details except a red dot that doesn't tell you what they are exactly doing, I'm not sure about the enhance versions I must admit, do inform me of that if you like. But I am certain it doesn't prevent Marc from turn the mansion into a deathtrap every step Morgan takes and also there's another ace up his sleeve that would easily turn the battle in his favor. He's not out yet. Not by a long shot. Later I'll get to this.

Weapon of choices for this fight.

And now I'll tell you why you shouldn't underestimate Marc Spector.

Marc's Darts Gauntlet.

Marc can fire multiple darts at quick succession automatically and all are capable of piercing metal barrels of a gun or other metal surfaces, they are able to split bullets in half in mid-fire and can easily overwhelm Morgan's Barrier in one burst, even damaging their GLOO cannon, which they are susceptible to. Once that happens they'll be out of options but to use the Q-Beam in this case Marc would simply dodge and disable that as well. From what I can get out of the backlash is that it repels enemies. So this is pretty easy to deal with for Marc, 4 crescent darts coming to Morgan's direction and they'll have to block the last one with their body or gun. Not to mention he has explosive ones in stashed with him which he could use instead to leave a bigger damaging result.

Marc's Truncheon.

This is his go-to double edge sword. He can use it on the fly when Morgan would fire something at him. He always has it on him and has a built-in grappler which could pull him out of tough situations, even pull him out of the GLOO if he gets caught, or if he wants to throw it at Morgan, it can wrap around their legs and land them in a spot where Marc can rush in there for the killing blow with his explosive dart.

Marc's Remote Angelwing.

Finally, the weapon that will seal the fate for Morgan. Marc simply calls in the Angelwing, blast a hole in the roof of the mansion and magnetically sacks Morgan of all of their weapons and equipment. Now they're left with their barrier and hands, and this case Marc blitz and spam his explosive darts onto them blowing them to kingdom come, and if that's not enough he'll crash the angelwing on to Morgan before they could react and mimic the angelwing. There's simply not enough time for Morgan to dodge a speeding drone or to react after getting their weapon taken from them. It can even become invisible so that way Morgan cannot find it to replicate it in time. which leaves Morgan distracted to figure out what just happened giving Marc enough time to blitz and stomp Morgan.

Conclusion

Conclusion

Moon Knight brings nothing to table that even remotely would score him a win here. Morgan is smarter, more powerful, and better armed. In this environment, there is especially no way for Moon Knight to score a Victory against Morgan.

Marc has shown feats to deal with what you have mentioned, but since it's against the rules to scan-bombed I can not do that but can happily post a link showing what he's really capable of. I say Marc brings a lot to the table and can easily score a win here if we were to take out the Recycle charge and here's why.

The Recycle charge as you describe it is a one-hit kill weapon. That stuff is banned in these battles, and not fair game if otherwise, then Morgan would instantly win this tournament no question asked if that weapon was allowed.

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#6 Posted by Nervedamage (837 posts) - - Show Bio

This was quite fun to do.

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#7 Posted by beatboks1 (10063 posts) - - Show Bio

OMG DEADMAN is back

Tag after every post

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#8 Posted by DedmanWalkin (4192 posts) - - Show Bio

@nervedamage: Sorry, CV ate the first version of this post and work got in the way of getting this one out.

MK has been through alot but he has never faced off against a shapeshifter of Morgan's caliber with tech of Morgan's caliber. A character like Morgan does not exist in the Marvel Universe.

Speed/Reflexes

There are limits for this tourney, Morgan with Mobility and Combat Focus Neuromods puts her at the limits. You cannot be faster than the limits so this is a moot point.

Strength/Endurance/Durability

Morgan, with Leverage III, can pick up and throw those old school computer tape drives like you would a rock with enough force to shatter a human body. Furthermore, she can brute force electromagnetically sealed doors designed to function as a bulkhead against the vacuum of space. At a minimum, that puts her arm strength at 2000 lbs of force which is well above Moon Knight's paltry 450 lbs of force. Morgan is well above MK's Strength Level and could ragdoll him without issue.

Thanks to Toughness III, Morgan has double the lifespan of a normal human which means that despite being in her late 20s she has the energy and stamina of a woman half her age. In addition, Stamina II puts her stamina at basically double that a normal human. Her mental fortitude is also nearly triple that of a normal human.

Toughness III already boosts my durability to 3 times that of a normal human. The TransStar uniform is a fully functional space suit which means it is heat resistant, radiation resistant, cold resistant, and micrometeoroid resistant. Micrometeoroids travel at 27,000 km a second which puts them on par with bullets. This is why NASA space suits are made with Kevlar/Nomex weave much like Captain America's Armor. The TranStar uniform can take a hit from gun fire with no problem. The automated turrets have guns on them and they don't hurt Morgan much. If a stray dart gets through it will hurt but thanks to Mimicry, light damage can be healed fairly easily. In addition to that, the TransStar Uniform can be modified with a polyshield which further reduces physical impacts. If only 1 of 4 shots gets through, it won't be too much of an issue. Also, how fast are these fired? If they impact in close enough succession, they can be nullified as one like when Backlash can nullify a Shotgun Blast which consists of multiple impacts made simultaneously. If there is less than a second between them then your attacks will come to naught.

No Stealth? Big Problem!

You really think you can turn Wayne Manor into a bigger death trap than Talos 1? Between the explosive gas lines, caustic chemical lines, exploding canisters, explosive decompression, small rolling explosive bombs that are everywhere, mind-controlled people, turrets, whacked out robots, and full on combat robots, Talos 1 is a giant death trap even without the Mimics and Monsters. Mimics are also capable of being everything which makes Morgan paranoid of everything, you won't set a trap in the mansion that she won't spot. Also, Morgan doesn't have to be people-sized which is what your traps will be designed to ensnare. Entrapping Morgan will be essentially impossible. Also, Huntress Bowcaster allows me set off traps from a distance. Worse yet, Morgan could spot your trap, set it off, lure you in and then when you go to check it, entrap you. I don't see any trap gear in his arsenal, how are you making traps?

The Psychoscope must be triggered in human mode but that isn't a problem because all of my movements are 100% silent thanks to Stealth II. Unless MK has some Daredevil-like senses, he won't be hearing anything that Morgan is doing. The Recycler does make a sound when activated though but by the time you hear it, Morgan's arms will be around you.

Also, since I have 100% stealth against your 0% stealth, you don't have any control over when and where a battle takes place. I have complete battlefield control, you have none.

Your Gear

The Dart Launcher is nice but ultimately the armor, regeneration, and backlash should render fairly ineffectual. I need a scan of him spamming explosive darts. Usually explosive weapons are limited quite heavily for people like Moon Knight.

The truncheon is nice bit if you deploy it at range, Morgan deploys a recycler charge destroying it. If you come close to use it, Morgan deploys a Recycler charge killing you. Ultimately you likely can only use it for mobility. You could potentially use it to get out of GLOO if you use it before the GLOO hardens. Otherwise, you'll be frozen as it suffuses your body.

The Angelwing is a violation of the No Summons Rule which means it is unavailable. But for fun, I'll let you have it for all the good it will do you. It also won't be blasting into Wayne Manor, did you forget who lives there? Wayne Manor is hardened, the Angelwing, using the Tourney Limits will not be able to blast its way in. In addition, it would be limited to the tourney limits for speed which means it cannot blitz. Lastly, I have a jetpack and can jump twice as far as a normal human. I can be well outside of a blast range. Also, I have multiple EMP charges that will knock The Angelwing out if you try to steal my weapons. Also, did you forget Psychoscope? It can detect Poltergeists which can also turn invisible. Invisibility don't mean crap to me.

Ultimately, none of your gear is of any value here as Morgan has a counter for everything.

My Strategy

MK has never faced a shapeshifter with an arsenal like this. Morgan is an outright monster of a woman.

Morgan is 100% silent which means MK cannot detect him. When Morgan returns to human form directly behind MK, she will grab him with her superior strength while activating her Recycler Charge. If you try to escape, Morgan will engage her Artax Propulsion System and lift you off the ground.

Also, what was your scan supposed to show here? Doom isn't here to save you, no one is. You have to save yourself which you can't.

Recycler Charge

Insta-Kill Moves are essentially one attack that can kill instantly. My attack has a timer and can be avoided. In addition, I am using a strategy that counters those 2 weaknesses through the use of Mimicry and the TransStar Uniform's Recycler Shield. Apart, none of these moves are insta-kill moves. It is only by combining them together in my strategy that they spell out doom for Moon Knight.

One Hit Kill Weapons are allowed because a simple gun can be one hit kill weapon on someone like Moon Knight.

Conclusion

Here are my advantages:

  • Ultimate Stealth
  • Complete Battlefield Control
  • Superior Strength
  • Better Equipment
  • Supreme Versatility
  • Actual Superpowers

These alone would hand me the win but you have nothing that can counter my strategy.

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#9 Posted by DedmanWalkin (4192 posts) - - Show Bio

@beatboks1: Glad to see you are still hanging around.

I'll try to keep you apprised of this thread.

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#11 Posted by Nervedamage (837 posts) - - Show Bio

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You will respect Khonshu!

Okay, okay then... I guess I'll eat my own words, but I'm not going down without a good fight because THIS WON'T BE ENOUGH TO TAKE HIM DOWN. You still didn't debunk anything about the Recycle Charge being a 1 hit kill move and I have another trick up my sleeve which will counter even what you've mentioned.

When things get out of hand, I'm going to have to throw Khonshu and Vol 1 into the mix eheh

There are limits for this tourney, Morgan with Mobility and Combat Focus Neuromods puts her at the limits. You cannot be faster than the limits so this is a moot point.

The Combat Focus well exceeds that limit, not putting her just to the limit. Slowing time and amplifying you a lot also by allowing you to react and move normally.

I can understand the stealth one, but combat focus seems to be overkill since everything is slowmo in mid-air. projectiles could easily be dodged casually leaving other competitors at a huge disadvantage, not just Marc. another violation

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Also, the rules also say nobody is above peak human in terms of speed, so with that said, both Marc and Morgan are going to be capped by default, if that's the case. So what's Morgan's martial arts history? This proves vital if this gets close and personal. Marc is the superior fighter here. and Since Morgan is being played by you or another human you a prone for mistakes which Marc can exploit. He pressure points her, then ends the fight with the explosive dart spams.

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You really think you can turn Wayne Manor into a bigger death trap than Talos 1?

Not only you'd have to deal with Marc's traps but the traps that are originally been in place. No one is above prep like Batman, no one.

Worse yet, Morgan could spot your trap, set it off, lure you in and then when you go to check it, entrap you. I don't see any trap gear in his arsenal, how are you making traps

He has plenty of arsenals that can be triggered via pressure or he can simply sit and camp until she comes and set off a flare that is strong enough to hurt even Sentry.

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How will she be able to easily spot the traps when she too to focus on following him around as a cup? What's the point in mentioning mimic, if the power was already proven useless. So now she's just going one by sneaking behind him tippy toeing? He's more flexible than her and can move around much easier than her, he'll maneuver around her kick her off of him before the charge set off even before should could have enough time to fly up via jetpack because he'll be out of her grip much like how Hulk, the Thing, and Strong Man couldn't touch him his agility is more than enough to counter anything she throws at him removing that huge buff with Combat Focus. Also he's able to come back to life, when he's out of the game. I don't know now.

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Yeah, good luck with trying to hug him though.

above Moon Knight's paltry 450 lbs of force.

Here's Marc casually destroying a card with a kick. and Even at his lowest point, he was still able to kick a card over. I know I'm sort of breaking the rules with this one, but the fight kinda feels a tad murky. I hope this doesn't count towards my panelty. I'm forced in a corner right now.

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The Angelwing is a violation of the No Summons Rule which means it is unavailable.

Which it isn't, it's not a minion or self-duplication. It's a flying drone that comes for him to ride on it's literally a freaking hoverboard.

[I don't know if this is allowed to note but his truncheon has an anti-metal frequency which can disable all electrical devices even at a distance, so her gadgets are either disable or cannot work this means that the psychoscope will be disabled any other electriconics on her.]

I need a scan of him spamming explosive darts.

Anytime.

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It also won't be blasting into Wayne Manor, did you forget who lives there? Wayne Manor is hardened, the Angelwing, using the Tourney Limits will not be able to blast its way in.

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I would like to challenge you on that claim.

So nothing against the Angelwing? because it's invisible so Morgan wouldn't know if it's either a phantom or a machine.

Also, did you forget Psychoscope? It can detect Poltergeists which can also turn invisible. Invisibility don't mean crap to me.

Yeah, it can detect something that can go invisible, not anything that can turn invisible. So that argument is mute. Also they'll have to deal with the gas, and take their eyes off of Marc granting him some time to distract them, leaving them more open then before if they attempt to look up and use Psychoscope, They'll get bombarded with the normal darts of three shots, shield will be deactivated, then 3 more explosive darts, their suit gets heavily damaged, and chipset gets damaged as well. Gets widdle down, then 3 more darts to finish the deal. Every bit of distraction counts in this battle.

And where did the EMP came from? I thought all of our weapons have been put out on the table :.(

One Hit Kill Weapons are allowed because a simple gun can be one hit kill weapon on someone like Moon Knight.

The reason why Recycle Charge wouldn't be allowed is that the effect is in itself an instant kill, anyone can tank or survive gun wounds, or a blast from a grenade, Moon Knight does it easy. But if someone would get hit by the Recycle charge regardless of which they are hit will instantly turn into some loot for her, Not only that, but there's a radius where it can create a black hole which sucks in anything that has mass. Morgan doesn't even have to aim it directly to a specific part of the human body like what you have to do with a bullet. To see where I'm going at with this, look at Ring Time in Sonic Lost Worlds. You can't really avoid it if you get too close. It's also a fallacy.

Conclusion

  1. The equipment seems to violate a lot of rules Especially with the Combat Focus unless I'm missing something, this easily puts her a low-speedsters level and supersonic reaction timer seeing the gameplay.
  2. You got me beat with stealth.
  3. I don't see how she's winning this hand to hand.
  4. Although I agree with most points some seem to contradict the notion that she needs or does not need to mimic.
  5. I thought we were going in this with all of our weapons put on the table. You brought out emp in the second post. So it's fair I use vol 1 to at least be one par with the strength department make this full moon.
  6. This is really impossible without scanbombing for me, that is.
  7. Your equipment doesn't disable all of my equipment at all. in fact none of my equipment is counterable especially the gas from the angelwing.
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#12 Posted by Jacthripper (14983 posts) - - Show Bio
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#13 Posted by DedmanWalkin (4192 posts) - - Show Bio

@nervedamage

Khonshu has not earned anyone's respect, least of all Morgan Yu.

You Will Respect Yu!

  1. The Recycler Charge is not an instakill move. By default, it has a trigger time which means it is not instant. It is easy enough to avoid that in the game, I generally deploy 3 of them at a time against Phantoms. Their movement is erratic and they more often then not dodge them. In fact, I generally recycled them so I could craft more useful things like Neuromods and Shotgun ammo. My strategy is what makes them a nightmare for you.
  2. Again, the rules do not prohibit one shot kill weapons at all only Insta-Kill Moves which are 2 completely different things. A gun could be a 1 hit kill weapon on the right target, it does not mean a gun would be banned.
  3. Only Combat Focus III potentially violates the rules, Combat Focus II does not. This is the advantage of using an RPG character, I can canonically control aspects of her that you have no control over. In fact, if Marc is faster than Peak Human then he is in fact illegal as Nerfing is not allowed.
  4. You still have not shown ANY gear in Moon Knight's arsenal that would allow him to create traps much less enough of a trap to elude someone who has to be worried about ALL objects around her. Morgan can't not assume that every object is a trap because where she comes from, every object is a trap.
  5. What do you not get about having 0% battlefield control? Morgan gets to choose when and where the battle will take place. Psychoscope + Stealth allows me to see you before you see me. At that point, camping will be useless because I'll get the drop on you with GLOO and you are done.
  6. Also, the Flashbang did not hurt Sentry, it was a distraction like all Flashbangs are. It won't work here because the Psychoscope. It functions closer to a thermal visor than night vision. Essentially, the scope is a camera that is broadcasting an image back to you. Notably, when active the contrast is much lower than when inactive. This means that the scope filters out excess light so that Flashbang is going to be maybe half as effective which means it won't slow Morgan down at all.
  7. When was Mimic proven useless? I need to know because I went back and read your post and the only part you countered was the use of the Psychoscope with Mimic. After I have located you with the Psychoscope, the TransStar Uniform's built in HUD allows me track you without it on because they are networked together.
  8. The Hulk, The Thing, and Strong Guy are all bricks. Bricks are not fast people, most of them barely have peak human speed. Thing and Strong Guy definitely do not while Hulk is as fast the plot demands. Also, he used his grappling truncheon to escape not agility. Even Bob, Agent of Hydra could have pulled off that feat with the right equipment. With Combat Focus and my superior strength, Moon Knight's getting that hug whether he wants it or not.
  9. Your proof of his strength is him falling from on high and landing on a jeep? You realize that is durability feat NOT a strength feat. Anyone with the right equipment could pull that off. You need to be more discerning in your choice of scan.
  10. Unless Moon Knight is wearing it at the beginning of the match, it counts as a summon. A summon is anything that is not the character that can take actions. Angelwing is a summon.
  11. Anti-Metal doesn't work like that, if your truncheon was made of Anti-metal then none of your gear would be anything more than goo as it basically renders metals inert. Also, good luck with disabling my gear, TransStar Uniform has another chipset called EMP Shielding which will protect my equipment from being knocked out. When being forced to choose a single character it is always better to back versatility than it is to back strength or skill. Morgan Yu is one of the most versatile video game characters I have ever found.
  12. He fired 3 "simple explosives" at FREAKING VICTOR FREAKING VON FREAKING DOOM and you think that means he has enough to sustain fire enough to get through Backlash? That is a ridiculous conclusion. First, Morgan is better than Moon Knight but he is not the same threat level as FREAKING VICTOR FREAKING VON FREAKING DOOM. Doom is leagues above everyone in this tournament, bringing up a scan with him in it is a bad idea. Second, he doesn't appear to launch any more after his attack fails completely. If he had more, he would have continued firing because his research team said they'd work. Third, he has Prep which means he knew he was going to encounter FREAKING VICTOR FREAKING VON FREAKING DOOM. Here he has no prep. Fourth, you know when spamming explosives would have been useful? Against The Thing, The Hulk, and Strong Guy! Yet he doesn't shoot a single one of them.
  13. So to prove that Wayne Manor isn't hardened you show a still from one of the animated movies? Seems legit! During the events of Cataclysm and No Man's Land, when an earthquake hit Gotham, it basically destroyed the mansion and uncovered part of the batcave. To combat this, Bruce Wayne rebuilt the manor and reinforced it so that future acts of devastation would not potentially reveal the Batcave's existence. It is a hardened structure that would put it well outside of the Angelwing's ability to damage.
  14. Did you forget how the Psychoscope functions? It looks for energy inside something and tracks it like that. Poltergeists, much like the Angelwing, have energy running through them which allows the Psychoscope to track it. With the Mimic Detection Gen 2 modification to the Psychoscope it can even detect the energy in mimics while they are mimicking objects. It should be known that while Mimicking objects, there is no way outside of a Psychoscope to tell the difference. So, you'd have to show that the invisibility used by the Angelwing renders it less detectable than a Mimic. Just to head off any other ridiculousness, the Psychoscope works on machines like Turrets or Operators just as well as it does people or Typhon.
  15. The TransStar Uniform is a fully functional Space Suit which means it has its own oxygen supply and rated against the Vacuum for a pressure seal. Gas would have ZERO effect on Morgan. The suit actually can detect whether breathable air is available and will activate itself without Morgan doing anything. Gas is a non-starter here.
  16. Marc knows nothing about Morgan, he won't know to fire his darts in slow succession so that each impacts the Backlash shield at different times. He won't know how many times the shield can be hit. He won't know to switch to Explosives afterwards either. He has never fought someone with a charge-based shield like Morgan. Moon Knight is a real character with his own personality and reason, he is not you so his knowledge and strategy are something he would have to have done before. This is another advantage of choosing highly versatile characters like Morgan, you get a wider range of strategies you can employ.
  17. Also, EMP Charges have always been an option but until you brought in a summon, I had no need to deploy them. At the very least, they allowed in the Tourney unlike the Angelwing. Morgan has a whole host of available gear which is what grants him such versatility.

"Conclusion"

  1. My equipment violates none of the rules as Morgan was chosen to fit within nearly any ruleset. The versatility she brings allows me to fit her almost anywhere. You have no real counter against my equipment which is why you want to rules lawyer it away. I could have chosen to go that route too but I have no problem with you breaking the rules in desperation to beat me. You already admitted that Moon Knight broke the speed rules and nerfed him which is against the rules. On that alone, you should be disqualified but I am not going to call for your be disqualified because I can still beat you.
  2. She who controls the stealth, controls the battle. Thanks for ceding that to me.
  3. I have never said that she would win Hand to Hand which is why I avoided that entirely. She is used to avoid hand to hand fights because every combatant she faces is stronger and faster than her.
  4. Mimic has always been the primary strategy, it is one of her strongest advantages here.
  5. If I put all my weapons on the table, it would break the table. Morgan is incredibly versatile. Morgan always has access to EMP Charges, they are standard gear. That you did not do your research is one you. There are only 12 full moons a year which means you have a 3% chance of it being a full moon. I don't think anyone is going to back you based on a 3% chance of superstrength. I have a 10% chance to critically wound you with my Shotgun but you don't see me relying on that here.
  6. Too many people, like yourself, rely far too heavily on scans without any thought towards strategy or versatility. The fact that you have conceded this fact shows that you do not deserve to win here.
  7. All of your stuff can be countered, even the illegal stuff. The Angelwing and ESPECIALLY the gas are easy for Morgan to Counter.

Conclusion

Moon Knight only really excels in a straight up fight where he can see what is coming. Outside of those circumstances, he has very little useful ability. Versatility is power in street level tourneys not strength or skill. My character is 10 times more versatile than yours which gives me counters to everything you can throw at her which gives me the win here.

Unless you have any real points to add, I am fine with heading to voting.

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#14 Posted by DedmanWalkin (4192 posts) - - Show Bio

@beatboks1: Another post up, let me know how I am doing.

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#15 Edited by Nervedamage (837 posts) - - Show Bio

@DedmanWalkin:If you do not respect Khonshu you will fall! First, let me take out the ridiculous points.

No Caption Provided

Beaten, but... I'm not out

He fired 3 "simple explosives" at FREAKING VICTOR FREAKING VON FREAKING DOOM and you think that means he has enough to sustain fire enough to get through Backlash? That is a ridiculous conclusion. First, Morgan is better than Moon Knight but he is not the same threat level as FREAKING VICTOR FREAKING VON FREAKING DOOM. Doom is leagues above everyone in this tournament, bringing up a scan with him in it is a bad idea.

But you asked me to post a scan of him firing multiple explosive darts, Doom has nothing to do with this. I wasn't proving anything but him being able to fire multiple explosives darts, seriously what is the point of this tangent?

Second, he doesn't appear to launch any more after his attack fails completely. If he had more, he would have continued firing because his research team said they'd work. Third, he has Prep which means he knew he was going to encounter FREAKING VICTOR FREAKING VON FREAKING DOOM. Here he has no prep. Fourth, you know when spamming explosives would have been useful? Against The Thing, The Hulk, and Strong Guy! Yet he doesn't shoot a single one of them.

That's because Doom Barrier proved to be...did you even read the scan? Oh! and about that against Hulk, Strong Guy and The Thing is because he wasn't focusing on them? Also, he was using his other equipment like his adamantium staff in which he doesn't have anymore, which has an electric charge?

Marc knows nothing about Morgan, he won't know to fire his darts in slow succession so that each impacts the Backlash shield at different times. He won't know how many times the shield can be hit. He won't know to switch to Explosives afterwards either. He has never fought someone with a charge-based shield like Morgan. Moon Knight is a real character with his own personality and reason, he is not you so his knowledge and strategy are something he would have to have done before. This is another advantage of choosing highly versatile characters like Morgan, you get a wider range of strategies you can employ.

No, you don't, because this isn't via game logic or gameplay, but overall game and what she can do in terms of game story and plotwise alongside, also only Jacktheripper can be the judge of rather this will be game logic or not. Marc can also rely on his bow and arrow, and not only his darts he's fully equipped and three shots will be enough to break the shield. He also has explosives arrows and if you want a scan of this, well here you go:

Him blowing up a water tower
Him blowing up a water tower

Your proof of his strength is him falling from on high and landing on a jeep? You realize that is durability feat NOT a strength feat. Anyone with the right equipment could pull that off. You need to be more discerning in your choice of scan.

He wasn't falling. He was gliding, something much more different and it was slowly, then he crushes the jeep, I'm pretty sure this suits the strength/endurance/durability department I set up. Nothing wrong with the scan I picked, but you're not posting any proof of Morgan opening up doors something much more simple or something along the lines.

You still have not shown ANY gear in Moon Knight's arsenal that would allow him to create traps much less enough of a trap to elude someone who has to be worried about ALL objects around her. Morgan can't not assume that every object is a trap because where she comes from, every object is a trap.

Since you wanted it so badly:

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2

Save your breath, I know. It was in his base but he has access to explosives which tells you something about this fight.

Only Combat Focus III potentially violates the rules, Combat Focus II does not. This is the advantage of using an RPG character, I can canonically control aspects of her that you have no control over. In fact, if Marc is faster than Peak Human then he is in fact illegal as Nerfing is not allowed.

This was a dumb counter-argument, he was equal to the Punisher without his powers but more agile. Yours is just dumb broken and you're nerfing and buffing her isn't allowed either. You have no say in this because you're saying essentially she has more than 2 amps you can control whether she has them or not which isn't allowed, this is the problem with game logic, you're basically making people trying to figure what the hell their dealing with and how to assess the situation, it's not witty at all, choose a build and be done with it. Only his reaction is held to questioning, but not his combat speed

Aside from that, this was already ceded in favor of Marc so I'll give you that.

There are limits for this tourney, Morgan with Mobility and Combat Focus Neuromods puts her at the limits. You cannot be faster than the limits so this is a moot point.

This is the problem. Are there any other Neuromods you are using? Anything else? You have a total of 100 neuromods, right? any other specs? I am merely annoyed by this, to say the least. Maybe I'm wrong, maybe you're right when it comes to RPG, but you don't have a maximum supply of specs to put in so make it count.

Anti-Metal doesn't work like that, if your truncheon was made of Anti-metal then none of your gear would be anything more than goo as it basically renders metals inert.

Did you misread? It admits an anti-metal frequency it's not made of anti-metal. and it's a frequency it admits. And somehow his gear still works can't say the same for yours.

EDIT: This might cause me the tournament because I think I might get the two Truncheon mixed up by accident. @jacthripper

So to prove that Wayne Manor isn't hardened you show a still from one of the animated movies? Seems legit! During the events of Cataclysm and No Man's Land, when an earthquake hit Gotham, it basically destroyed the mansion and uncovered part of the batcave. To combat this, Bruce Wayne rebuilt the manor and reinforced it so that future acts of devastation would not potentially reveal the Batcave's existence. It is a hardened structure that would put it well outside of the Angelwing's ability to damage.

We don't know if this is when or after the upgrade, from what I can tell this looks like the pre-upgraded Manor, feel free to expand.

The Recycler Charge is not an instakill move. By default, it has a trigger time which means it is not instant. It is easy enough to avoid that in the game, I generally deploy 3 of them at a time against Phantoms. Their movement is erratic and they more often then not dodge them. In fact, I generally recycled them so I could craft more useful things like Neuromods and Shotgun ammo. My strategy is what makes them a nightmare for you.

Doesn't matter, the weapon itself bypass all durability and all hardness, it's not allowed regardless if it can be avoided or not. You can really make do, without the charge honestly. and once again Angelwing was never a summon, it's a floatation device he can ride on and robs you of your equipment before you could think of using the emp charge, you'd be too distracted on Marc and won't see it coming. You don't have a counter to this if this turns into a fight. Your charges get shot down before they could even reach the angelwing. If it could take away weapons from multiple police at bare minimum trained officers and thugs, it can sure as hell do the same to you with or without the emp. Again not a summon, drones are allowed. but even without it, his truncheon can have an anti-metal frequency that disables all of your equipment.

I'm not conceding from this tourney but from posting scans. and posting proof, it may sound sketchy but bear with me, we are not allowed to scan bomb, I'm on constraints when you ask me to prove my claims, that is why.

  1. My equipment violates none of the rules as Morgan was chosen to fit within nearly any ruleset. The versatility she brings allows me to fit her almost anywhere. You have no real counter against my equipment which is why you want to rules lawyer it away. I could have chosen to go that route too but I have no problem with you breaking the rules in desperation to beat me. You already admitted that Moon Knight broke the speed rules and nerfed him which is against the rules. On that alone, you should be disqualified but I am not going to call for your be disqualified because I can still beat you.

When have I said this? Please quote me on my post above I said that they would both be equal by capped by default because Morgan clearly violates the speed department nothing about Marc being above peak human.

Also, the rules also say nobody is above peak human in terms of speed, so with that said, both Marc and Morgan are going to be capped by default

Also, I can be spiteful and say Combat Focus in itself manipulate time by slowing it down. Which violates the rules too, Disqualifying you. But again, I don't mind it, just the third one. And I do enjoy doing this, to be honest no ill intent towards you, I hope you know that.

Conclusion

  1. You didn't add anything new to this but repeating what you said about the recycle charge and try to accuse me of saying Marc is above peak human.
  2. Stealth is morgan's advantage clearly. Never said she didn't.
  3. I'm not respecting her until you respect Khonshu.
  4. She got him beat in "versatility " But none of that will matter if it gets hit with a powerful frequency that disables their equipment, not an emp but a literally anti-metal frequency.
  5. I know these things tend to get personal nothing personal right? We're cool right? Shake on it?

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#17 Posted by DedmanWalkin (4192 posts) - - Show Bio

@nervedamage:

Beaten, and out!

I asked specifically for a scan of him SPAMMING explosives which means firing 10 or more explosives in a small time frame. Your best was 3 which does not qualify as spamming. Without spamming, you will not be able to kill Morgan with only 3 explosive darts.Unless you have scans of using more than a couple at a time, that is all he has.

Gliding is, to steal a phrase from Toy Story, Gliding is falling with style. When he let go of his glider cloak and brought his legs forward he ceased gliding and started falling. Durability does not equal strength and that is a durability feat. ANYONE could perform that feat with his equipment falling from the same height. Strength/Endurance/Durability are not interchangeable. Here is the description for Leverage III from the game. I looked for along time to find a good video showing this in action but since you can bypass most doors easier with hacking, it isn't used very often.

Lift anything that isn't bolted to the floor and throw objects even further. Your brute strength can be applied to force open an unpowered door.

Neuromods are a product, invented by Morgan Yu no less, that is being sold to other people. The descriptions being used to sell them are the ones like above. It isn't game logic, it how Neuromods work. If they didn't work as advertised, people could sue. Being able to apply neuromods strategically is what separates Yu from the Typhon. All cutscenes in game are done in engine which means whatever your character can do in the game, outside of obvious glitching and various gameplay conciets, is possible in the cutscenes.

Where was this bow in all the previous scans? That thing has no hinges so it is not collapsible so he would have to be carrying it on his person. In ALL of your previous scans he is not carrying and it is not listed as standard in any place I can find. Also, he has no quiver here so the 3 on the bow and the 1 explosive arrow is all he has. Standard Equipment is all about what your character carries on them at all times. For me, that can be anything in the game, for you that is only things he carries on him at all times.

At no point have I brought up game logic, I have only used the descriptions of objects in game which are again sales tools for them that TransStar uses to sell them. Blatantly False Advertising would be woefully stupid for a tech company like TransStar. If we were using game Logic then you'd be extra screwed because then I could pause the game and use my near unlimited supply of health packs and suit repair kits to basically become invulnerable. In addition, aim assist would allow me to hit you far more easily. Luckily, this isn't the game.

When Moon Knight fought Doctor Doom, he fired 3 darts, saw they did nothing and did not fire again. What reason does Moon Knight have to suspect that my shield can only take 3 darts? Has he ever come across someone with charge-based shielding? Unlikely, so once his darts failed he would have to assume that ranged attacks were useless. If the damage coming at me is likely too much, I can always activate Mimic and dodge the arrows or darts or what have you. Fact is, Moon Knight has never faced someone like Morgan. A shapeshifter with a shield, armor, and more gadgets than Batman.

So you are conceding the trap argument! Awesome, no more traps for Morgan to deal with because you by default carry no traps.

The advantage to using an RPG character is that I can build her however I need for any battle. She is not a static character like Moon Knight. I can pick and choose which neuromods I have and which I do not. I was not going to bring every Neuromod and chipset up in my first post because that would make my post ridiculously long and would in effect be scan-bombing. Instead, I will bring them up when necessary. This is also a multi-round tournament, I don't want to play all my cards unless I need to do so. It is not meant to be witty, it is strategic. The build for this round, since I am limited to only 2 Typhon Powers, is actually really cheap as the Human mods are stupid cheap. On my No Needles run through the game, one in which I use no Neurmods, I still collected well above 100 or so through exploration alone. In my Human-Only run, wherein I only used Human Neuromods I was able to unlock the entire Human Tree with at least 20-30 mods left over which would be more than enough to unlock the Mimic and Backlash Powers. The great part about neuromods is that there is no real limit in game on how many you can get since you craft them easily as again, they are a consumer item.

Again, I chose a character that would be versatile so that I could build her to the battle at hand. You could have done the same thing but you chose not to do so. As I said, Versatility is power in street level tourneys and Morgan is far more versatile than Moon Knight could ever hope to be. Next round I may not be using Mimic and Backlash. Moon Knight should not have been your first round pick, he is 2nd or 3rd round at best like he is in Marvel.

You need to provide the scan for your truncheon because you call it Anti-Metal yet it does not function like anti-metal. Inconsistent information requires scans. Either way, my EMP Shielding will likely protect against it.

The first mansion was built more like a mansion, the second mansion was built more like a castle, what does the picture above look like? The clearly visible turret in the middle means it is more like a castle which puts this battle in the hardened mansion not the standard mansion.

If I GLOO'd you to the ground, removed your mask, and shot you point blank in the head with my Shotgun would that count as an Insta-kill move? Because humans are actually easier to GLOO than Typhon because they are made of exotic matter. I could GLOO you with probably 2 Shots from behind and render you frozen. Remember, that 100% stealth advantage means I can get my shots off from point-blank range without you even know what is happening until you are frozen. No? Why not, my GLOO also ignores strength, endurance, and durability? Is GLOO also an Insta-Kill move? Again, by themselves none of these things violate any rules. This strategy only works because I combined many elements together and used them against someone with ZERO means of countering them. Against someone like Daredevil or someone stronger than me or someone with significant mass or any number of things that Moon Knight does not have, this strategy would be useless. You chose a character with a very limited amount of versatility which has rendered you unable to counter this very easily countered move. I could make do without the Recycler Charge but it is a guaranteed victory here so why change? Your challenge has not been substantiated and Jacthripper has played Prey so he was aware of them when approving.

Unless you have it on your back at the beginning of the round, it is a summon. If it can take actions that you yourself are not directly taking, it is a summon. If you have to tell it to do something, it is a summon. If you have to summon it to location, it is a summon. There is no definition of the Angelwing that does not make it a summon? Would you likewise allow Batman to summon his Batmobile, or Batwing, or BatMech in a battle? The only away around this rule would be if you were on it at the beginning of the battle like one of the Goblins. If you are not, then you can't use it here. A drone is generally always a summon.

Once the Angelwing comes into view, it is deemed electronic and the first thing that Morgan will do is use his preferred means of dealing with opposing machinery. Morgan had to deal with multiple Military Operators coming at him from multiple vectors while also fighting a Nightmare, a giant typhon with ridiculous strength and capable of firing homing projectiles that target the energy in your brain. I don't think engaging a human and his robot bird is going to be a problem. Morgan has been in situations like that before so when your Angelwing somehow finds its way into the mansion, it will be knocked out of commission. But let's say it doesn't. How is Marc going to both contend with Morgan and destroy my EMP Charges? How are you shooting them down? Once the darts enter the magnetic field they will sucked up to. You'd have to fire at the exact right trajectory that takes into account the pull of the magnetic field. I don't think Moon Knight is that good of a shot.

Morgan is also alot stronger than your average cop. How strong a pull does it the Angelwing have? Did it also pull the cops into the air because their belts contain extra clips and handcuffs and a variety of things that would be magnetic that would be attracted as well. A cop maybe weighs 250lbs which puts that as its max pull weight. Most cops are maybe able to lift 1.5 times their body weight so maybe 375 lbs which is likely close to the maximum force it could deploy as it was a device designed to counter armed humans not superhuman monsters like Morgan. Morgan has already been shown to be able to bypass electromagnetically sealed doors so she should be able to counter the electromagnetic pull of the Angelwing with little issue. Again, she is 5 times as strong as a cop. Show me this tactic working on a stronger foe.

I was around in the time before you could just rip a respect thread and post someone else's hard work, when scans where hard to come by. This made debates more about wit and strategy which you are sorely lacking here.

Combat Focus looks like Manipulating Time because there is no way to allow a typical human player to experience the enhanced speed and reaction time it allows. The only way to visually mimic this is through slowing down the GAME not slowing down time. All your own gear and cooldowns do not accelerate when using Combat Focus which if it was time manipulation would be the case.

You stated that Moon Knight and Morgan would be equally capped which means you think both are above the limits. I can actually control my caps with neuromod manipulation, you can't. I don't have to nerf at all because Morgan is a character that can be built in a variety of ways in the game. Moon Knight has to be nerfed if he breaches the limits. Again, the versatility that Morgan provides gives her a clear advantage that Moon Knight does not have available.

Conclusion

  • My post was a rebuttal, it was designed to counter your misinformation with my information. I don't need to present new information just clarify existing information
  • Stealth is everything here, you trying to act like it isn't is your downfall. Conceding Stealth is conceding the match.
  • Moon Knight is what, a 5th string Avenger. No one respects Khonshu.
  • Your explanation of this device is unclear, post a scan or better context because it seems contradictory in function. You also need to show it working through EMP resistance.
  • I'm not in anyway emotional, I am okay with you as a person but your debate seems to hinge not on countering my character but trying to rules lawyer away aspects of mine. I did not engage in any of that until you did. I did my homework on your character, I knew everything you could throw at me that was within the rules before you deployed it which is why I knew your explosives use was minimal like most street levelers.

Now if you don't have anything more to add like your bow and arrow, I am fine with heading to voting.

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#19 Edited by Nervedamage (837 posts) - - Show Bio

@DedmanWalkin: Let's just go voting, I've just lost all my progress again and I don't feel like wasting my time doing this. But my post goes along the lines of countering your first claim on how she's going to take him down long story short that won't work. Screw it: I post some of my last counter claims We're voting now.

You stated that Moon Knight and Morgan would be equally capped which means you think both are above the limits. I can actually control my caps with neuromod manipulation, you can't. I don't have to nerf at all because Morgan is a character that can be built in a variety of ways in the game. Moon Knight has to be nerfed if he breaches the limits. Again, the versatility that Morgan provides gives her a clear advantage that Moon Knight does not have available.

So basically what does it have to do with Marc being above peak human, since I've never stated he was, I only stated Morgan was and she will be capped, Marc is peak human by default via feats displayed he will be at the cap as well is what I meant, he is in no way slowing his perception of time and drastically increasing his speed which is shown here:

and no matter how much you want to defend it, Recycle charge still breaks the rules.

Combat Focus looks like Manipulating Time because there is no way to allow a typical human player to experience the enhanced speed and reaction time it allows. The only way to visually mimic this is through slowing down the GAME not slowing down time. All your own gear and cooldowns do not accelerate when using Combat Focus which if it was time manipulation would be the case.

So you're aware of this?:

No Caption Provided
No Caption Provided

And no, I made a mistake and a huge one with the truncheon that I can admit, it does not have a EMP or any anti-metal truncheon, that goes to his old one which he doesn't use anymore which is the adamantium one, My memory fool'd and have not research that bit for clarity which was why I called out for jack.

Let's move on and vote now.

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#20 Posted by DedmanWalkin (4192 posts) - - Show Bio

@jacthripper: @nervedamage: @DedmanWalkin:

Before we go to voting, I want to reiterate that descriptions are advertising tools and as such are meant to be used to sell Neuromods to people who do not have them. There is no way to explain the effects of Combat Focus to a person without it in anyway that will make sense to them without suggesting that time is sped up. You remember when Cap was able to dodge bullets after they were fired and described that he was able to "see faster?" This is the same thing.

You can open up voting, Jac.

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#23 Edited by Nervedamage (837 posts) - - Show Bio

I'll lean to Morgan, stealth in this situation is tough one for him but if they would interact with the environment he might detect them in time. There's also other hax morgan also have in their arsenal after much research on the character. They'll also be able to manipulate gravity and whatnot with the Energy neuromods and can mind jack Marc via telepath.

Edit: just found out telepathy isn't allowed either and Backlash also violates this rule too for not being weakened by explosives during the first hit.

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#24 Posted by TourneyMaster (1730 posts) - - Show Bio

I vote for Neverdamage. It he was slightly out debated by Deadmen, but not once has Deadmen showed a video or scan or any proof to his claims. It was all words. Its like entering a court case and talking it all out with no evidence presented. Never showed evidence to claims. He wins by default for me. I never heard of this Morgan and not sure if Dead is talking out how butt or not. Proof needs to be seen to claims.

Also on side note Anti Metal does not turn your gear to crap with presence. Look at Vibranium Mesh Black Panther who has Anti Metal claws.

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#25 Posted by DedmanWalkin (4192 posts) - - Show Bio

@tourneymaster: I don't generally take issue with votes but I don't follow the logic here. You say I outdebated him yet he wins because he has more pretty pictures? It is the job of the debater to counter claims not the job of the voter. I could say that Morgan was God Herself and you would have to accept that until the other debater countered the claim. To take this back to the "court case" example you provided, if the defense does not object to the inclusion of a bullshit claim then that claim gets to stand. Prosecutors makes claims all the time that get people convicted despite having no real evidence. There are thousands of people in jail falsely because their crap Lawyer did not object to claims made by prosecutors. OJ Simpson killed 2 people and got away with it while presenting no real evidence in their defense. Evidence is nice to have in court but it is by no means a requirement. A lawyer can make any claims they want but it is up to opposing council to counter those claims not the jury. If one debater weaves the other debaters claims into their rebuttal then that claim stands on its own.

Just so you are aware, I did provide direct quotes from the game as well as video of mimicry in action. I find it highly disingenuous to state that I provided absolutely no evidence when evidence was in the very first post.

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#26 Edited by TourneyMaster (1730 posts) - - Show Bio

@DedmanWalkin: yes, you posted some quotes of how something is describe to work, and a single video on one power/ability. You did provide something. But it never showed me or prove anything. Outside gameplay mechanics for the game footage.

I been on this site and known at one time the guy who started the scan bomb to win debates. I feel your post was a lot of thoughtful arguments, but nothing shown. You told and not show. That is just one of my pet peeves in debates. I want to see this power work for my own eyes. I want to see it in action and draw my own conclusions. I got none of this here. Thats all. I bothers me and I voted as such.

If OP wants to not count my vote, thats fine. I will not vote for anyone who does not show me anything. We have scans, gifs, and video links. I like to see those tools use more than being told what something is and have to use my imagination to decide a debate on facts mixed with clever opinion on why someone wins.

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#27 Posted by DedmanWalkin (4192 posts) - - Show Bio

@tourneymaster:

Scan bombing is just a form of Gish Gallop and a sign of a weak debater. This is why Scan-Bombing was specifically prohibited in this tourney. Relying on scans to make your argument, is a crutch relied upon by too many. By voting for those who rely upon this crutch, you weaken them as debaters. You are giving a him a vote not because he did a good job but because he had more pictures. Anyone can make a respect thread, it takes alot more to debate.

Regardless of what evidence I presented it was still the responsibility of my opponent to call out my claims. If he does not call them out, he is conceding that they are true even if they are not. If he is conceding that they are true then you have to, as an impartial observer, also concede that they are true otherwise you are voting based on biases and not the actual debate. You don't get to draw conclusions, only the debaters get to draw conclusions, you are simply judging things based upon the arguments presented.

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#28 Edited by TourneyMaster (1730 posts) - - Show Bio

@DedmanWalkin:

Scan bombing is just a form of Gish Gallop and a sign of a weak debater. This is why Scan-Bombing was specifically prohibited in this tourney.

Agree, its why I dont do it anymore and dislike it now. But man, several years back it was all the rage.

Relying on scans to make your argument, is a crutch relied upon by too many.

Relying on scans alone? Yes. Relying on scans to support your arguments and words? A must need in debates.

By voting for those who rely upon this crutch, you weaken them as debaters. You are giving a him a vote not because he did a good job but because he had more pictures. Anyone can make a respect thread, it takes alot more to debate.

Wrong. he had very few pictures, but use them when showing proof of his claims and support his argument. Thats why he has my vote.

Regardless of what evidence I presented it was still the responsibility of my opponent to call out my claims. If he does not call them out, he is conceding that they are true even if they are not.

Fair point, but as a reader I was bored and felt the need to question your claims. I dont vote for a President or Senator becuase he out debated the other. I vote on the proof of their claims and track records. Same for when I vote for anything.

If he is conceding that they are true then you have to, as an impartial observer, also concede that they are true otherwise you are voting based on biases and not the actual debate.

Im not impartial, I vote base on what I think makes for a good debate and argument. I dont trust what your saying. that simple. I feel you were lazy too not proving it to me. That too. Thus my vote.

You don't get to draw conclusions, only the debaters get to draw conclusions, you are simply judging things based upon the arguments presented.

Wrong. As a voter I am playing Jury. I dont believe your case due to main reasons of wanting to see proof of claims. You can tell me all day unicorns are real and shit rainbows, Im not going to buy it just because your opponent took your words at face value, all the while doing the right thing in showing proof of his own claims. Thats like you arguing Spider man beating Fire Lord is legit and your opponent who does not now anything about the characters just accepts what you say is true. I know better. That matters. You dont need to sell bullshit to him, you need to sell ME the VOTER the bullshit. You failed at that.

You at all dont get to say shit about how I vote. I been voted against because of my damn grammar. So you dont lecture shit on me unable to vote against you for what I see as shitty debating. Its my vote. Whether Op counts it or not is the tourneys issue. My stance does not change. Dont be lazy next time, show some damn vids, gifs, scans every now and then.

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#29 Posted by Jacthripper (14983 posts) - - Show Bio

Bump for votes!

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#30 Posted by geekryan (4797 posts) - - Show Bio

I'm voting for @nervedamage.

I felt as though they presented their character better, and provided more solid proof in the form of feats & scans. I was quite convinced that Moon Knight held practically every physical advantage. Nerve also had better arguments and counters in my opinion.

I would like to say that both debaters seemed to playing in a grey area that could questionably put their characters above the limits, or break the rules, on several counts. The Recycler Charge, despite being on a timer and having a limited AoE, is still an insta-kill move once it goes off. Additionally, all the in-game enhancements that Dedman brought up weren't backed up with any videos or proof of what they really do.

Nonetheless, good job to the both of you!

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#31 Posted by AValiantImge (368 posts) - - Show Bio

I vote @nervedamage .

Throughout the debate I didn't see anything that could take out Moon Knight other than recycle charge. Weapons like the Gloo Gun and Q beam weren't expanded upon, it was unknown whether these weapons shoot projectiles at or even below bullet speeds, nor were there any marksman ship feats presented for Morgan Yu and because of that I don't see her tagging Marc. The main strategy was the "hug" but from the evidence presented I don't see Yu successfully doing so to someone whose much more skilled and has much better striking strength.