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#1 Posted by Jacthripper (14983 posts) - - Show Bio

Welcome to the Match!

Feelin' Lucky? Step into the ring! Fight for glory, honor, and whatever else you feel like! The concept for this tournament is simple. You begin with one character. Every time you win around, you add one man to your team until the end of the tournament. In the first round you would have one character, in the second round you would have two, in the third round you would have three, and in the final round you would have four.

For any further clarifications for the rules, here is the original thread.

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@anthp2000- Master Splinter

vs

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@deathhero61- Sagara Sanosuke

Fight takes place in this abandoned jungle temple

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#2 Posted by ANTHP2000 (27896 posts) - - Show Bio

@deathhero61: well looks like I'm gonna rep Splinter against you after all ha!

P.s. this looks handpicked.

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#3 Posted by DeathHero61 (18832 posts) - - Show Bio

Nooooooooo i literally got the worst matchup.

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#4 Posted by Jacthripper (14983 posts) - - Show Bio
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#5 Posted by ANTHP2000 (27896 posts) - - Show Bio

@deathhero61: I'm still gathering feats throughout the series, so if you could open first it'd be great.

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#6 Posted by Jacthripper (14983 posts) - - Show Bio
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#7 Posted by ANTHP2000 (27896 posts) - - Show Bio

I'll get it up ASAP.

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#8 Posted by DeathHero61 (18832 posts) - - Show Bio

@anthp2000: i didn't get the tag. I'll have a post up soon.

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#9 Edited by DeathHero61 (18832 posts) - - Show Bio

@anthp2000:

Sagara Sanosuke, Fight Merchant

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Bio

Background: At the age of 9 he joined the Sekihō Army, he then witnessed as his leader and comrades were executed by their own allies. Sanosuke spent then next 10 years after the Revolution as a "fight merchant" under the name Zanza, while still harboring anger towards the Ishin-Shishi that framed and murdered his comrades as well as the government that they created. After battling Kenshin, the most famous member of the Ishin-Shishi, his anger was subsided and became one of his best friends.

Strength/Durability

This section won't be organized in any particular manner, its been awhile since I read Kenshin so I'm simply digging up whatever feats I happen to remember or find.

In a verse filled with sword fighters and martial artists, Sanosuke is the most offensive fighter, to the point of constant critique, sometimes being a musclehead, which makes sense, his strength and durability is his pride. For example, the first thing he does is take a Suntetsu to the face, which is a 6-inch metal rod to the face. He shrugs it off, on top of the fact that the guy who stabs him hits him in the face with it so hard he broke his own arm with how durable Sano is.

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Then casually one shots him with a finger flick.

His raw physical strength should be on par with Hamato's. His go to weapon used to be his Zanbato, a heavy weapon used for cutting down horses and their riders in one blow. Basically a large lump of metal. He was able to spin it around rapidly to add force to his attacks.

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Nowadays he's a barehanded fighter ever since Kenshin cut his sword in half. And his strength really shows. For example he grabbed a statue by its base lifted it up attempted to use it as a weapon and smashed it.

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Took an Iron Ball to the face, and practically ignored it. Aiming for the handcuffs on his opponent the entire time and even boasted about how he could break the iron cuff on his leg as well.

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Caught a giant Iron Ball casually

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And a sweet feat of his, although its not necessarily his best feat, is taking a flurry of blows from Kenshin.

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And although it briefly takes him out, he immediately gets back up and continues the fight for one last round.

Kenshin's strength levels are pretty solid, and honestly, has enough strength to be an absolute equal with Master Splinter if not beyond him.

I would scan bomb his feats, but I'm simply going to post my favorite and what I feel is a heavily underlooked feat for a street level character.

Slices a lampost and launches it at a mansion all in one swift motion.

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He slashed the support of the iron pole, then essentially balanced it on his sword then threw it like a fastball.(The man up on the balcony couldn't even react to what happen. That's how fast it was.)

Sano took a large flurry of blows, then got back up as I shown and right after, and took a full power blow to the skull from Kenshin.

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Anime Version:

https://gfycat.com/unequaleddopeyemu

And he still had the resolve to keep fighting after that.

I feel like I laid a good groundwork for his durability and endurance, and a small sample of his strength. Now I will talk about his main technique in unarmed combat. The Futae No Kiwami. Its a technique made to increase the force of one's strikes drastically, and bring out the full potential of one's strikes by essentially punching more than once all at once. For example, his first real showing with this technique is completely shattering a boulder to rubble.

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He also used a weaker version of the technique to "one shot" a large man while he was hiding behind a boulder. Meaning the shockwave of the punches knocked him out despite using the boulder as a shield essentially.

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Despite Splinter's durability, this technique should allow him to deal out the damage necessary to put him down for good.

Speed/Reflexes

I could probably scale Sano to Kenshin somehow, but he has feats of his own and other characters he can reasonably scale to. Sano despite his straightforward and muscle head approach, he's actually deceptively fast.

Reacts to canon fire, even going as far as to swing his heavy sword to deflect it. Mind you, the projectile was moving fast enough that when Sano deflected it, one of the bystanders couldn't even track the projectile's trajectory or position afterwards.

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Deceptively agile, being able to use wooden planks as footholds on water, then reacted to gatling gun bullets after they were fired and defended against them by creating a shockwave strong enough to make a strong jet of water that could stop the momentum of the bullets coming towards him. This is a solid reaction time feat and it doubles as a strength feat.

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This should be good for now.

Initial Thoughts

To keep it simple, I believe Sanosuke has enough brute force to take down Hamato, and honestly I cannot see him putting him down. His skill in hand to hand does worry me, but I feel Sanosuke has been in enough fights to keep up and I'll elaborate on that after your opener.

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#10 Posted by DeathHero61 (18832 posts) - - Show Bio

@jacthripper: Fighters are at their strongest and healthiest right?

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#11 Posted by ANTHP2000 (27896 posts) - - Show Bio
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#12 Posted by Jacthripper (14983 posts) - - Show Bio
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#13 Posted by DeathHero61 (18832 posts) - - Show Bio

@jacthripper: I'm asking because the technique i mentioned in my opener screwed up Sanosuke's hand because he abused it. So is it safe to assume his hands are in working stable conditions?

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#14 Posted by Jacthripper (14983 posts) - - Show Bio

@jacthripper: I'm asking because the technique i mentioned in my opener screwed up Sanosuke's hand because he abused it. So is it safe to assume his hands are in working stable conditions?

Correct

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#15 Posted by DeathHero61 (18832 posts) - - Show Bio

@anthp2000: you literally have a post on our last CAV.

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#16 Edited by ANTHP2000 (27896 posts) - - Show Bio

@deathhero61: That post isn't nearly organised or as good the representation I'm planning to give in this tournament. No worries I'll post today anyways, I just prioritized the Avatar tourney cause Geekryan had trouble with the contestants.

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#17 Posted by ANTHP2000 (27896 posts) - - Show Bio

@deathhero61: post will be up in a few hours, I'm just finishing off the gifs to put in, but it's all ready besides that.

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#18 Posted by DeathHero61 (18832 posts) - - Show Bio

@anthp2000: Ah alright if you are taking time to add an extra pizzazz do your thing.

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#19 Edited by ANTHP2000 (27896 posts) - - Show Bio

@jacthripper

I'll try to keep this as short and on-point as possible. When the cheese-phone rings, Sensei will be there!

Hamato Yoshi, A.K.A. Master Splinter

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Biography

Hamato Yoshi was born in 1962 in Japan, as part of a peacekeeping ninja clan known as the Hamato Clan. Before he could take his rightful place as Leader of the Clan, he was relentlessly trained in the art of Ninjutsu and grew to be rivalled only by one man, his own adoptive brother, Oroku Saki, part of the Foot Clan. The two clans had always been opposing to one another, as were the brothers. Yoshi had fell in love with a woman, Tang Shen, with whom they attempted to start a family, even bearing a daughter, Miwa. One day, Saki came and asked for a fight that would end their rivalry, decide the outcome of the centuries-old clash between the Hamatos and the Foot. Tang Shen intervened however, and Saki inadvertently took her out. The building was set on fire, Tang Shen was gone and Saki stole Miwa from Yoshi. Desperate to start a new life, Yoshi moved to New York and bought 4 young turtles to keep him company. On his way home, he encountered a strange "man". Yoshi decided to follow him and encountered the Kraang for the first time. While he was fending them off, Yoshi was exposed to a dose of mutagen, an ooze-like formula that infected the DNA of organic bodies and turned them into something else. Yoshi had just touched a rat, and therefore turned into a giant rat with human attributes himself, whereas his 4 turtles acquired human traits. Yoshi adopted the name "Splinter" and raised the 4 turtles as his sons, training them in the art of Ninjutsu and up until his recent death, sharing his wisdom with them.

Equipment

  • Specialised Cane: Splinter carries a cane as his primary weapon of choice, he uses it as a multifunctional staff
    • Katana Sword: when opened, the staff reveals a hidden Katana blade, a more directly lethal weapon in the hands of a master like Splinter; he can effortlessly disarm other skilled swordsmen in one swift move
    • Wire Function: the cane also has a long wire concealed that Splinter can use to trip up, redirect and restrain opponents even larger than himself, like he did to the Triceratons, extraterrestrial beings that his Turtle sons were incapable of taking down, by precisely turning their own weapons against them in a group of simultaneous three and knocking them out
  • Knives: Splinter carries multiple hidden knives with him, which he could use both as ranged and close combat weapons to catch opponents off-guard
  • Throwing Stars: Splinter also carried a large number of chinese throwing stars with him, aiding him in range, they can be used for accurate direct shots or even impossible ricochet ones, always with pinpoint accuracy
  • Blinding Powder: Splinter carried hidden amounts of blinding powder up his sleeves, which he can use to throw off opponents for a noteworthy amount of time, giving him the opportunity to take them down easier
  • Ninja Smoke Bombs: Splinter also carried one of Donatello's first inventions for the field, smoke bombs designed by nothing but special chemical mixtures inside eggshells that explode and create a diversion, giving Splinter more effective ways to utilise stealth

Raw Strength & Damage Soak

Upon mutation, Splinter's physicality was enhansed, so besides his off-the-charts training on pain tolerance and physical strength, he has even more going for him. He might not look particularly muscular, but he's large enough and a very solid physical specimen.

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S1: I, Monster, S2: Invasion II
  • Scan 1: Splinter effortlessly overpowers all 4 of his sons with one swift move, I can elaborate later on the Turtles' strength, but each of them is clearly blatantly superhuman, even if they're not on the level of your character.
  • Scan 2: In one mighty push, Splinter breaks out of a barrage of logs lying on top of him, sending them flying and eve causing a small shockwave in the process. I will say that this was likely a momentary rush of andrenaline, but it's worth mentioning regardless, due to the impressiveness of the feat.
S2: Invasion I
S2: Invasion I

Splinter can outright wrestle with multitonners. Kraang Supreme had infiltrated the Lair during the Invasion of the Kraang, and Splinter was forced to fight him alone. Kraang Supreme can completely effortlessly lift something as heavy as a pinball machine with 1 arm and throw it yards away, and Splinter took him on and held his own in a raw strength contest for quite a while.

S1: I, Monster
S1: I, Monster

Naturally, his striking ouput is even more immpressive, launching the turtles away with incredible ease; what's important to note here is that those aren't soft hits to throw an opponent out of balance or any mighty strikes that required build-up: they're Splinter's casual and average punches and kicks, this is the damage those deal.

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This is Splinter's most clear-cut demonstration of damage soak. First his leg is stomped to the ground by the Super Shredder, an incredibly powerful multitonner who put all his weight into this, and then he falls a thousand feet long fall;

"That drop is at least a thousand feet down, even he couldn't survive a fall like that."

Donatello (S4E21: Darkest Plight)

And underway, it's important to note that he is been pressed and forced inside the surface of the large stone pillars by the Super Shredder as well as slammed several times, head on, onto steel bars. He still survives this fall and is capable of recovering within hours from all his injuries and escape.

On a different note, he's also demonstrated decent piercing resistence and/or pain tolerance against penetrating weapons. When Karai slashed him on the shoulder with her sword, he was barely stunned for a moment. Karai can also cut clean through the Kraang's metalic android bodies with no effort whatsoever using similar attempts to this.

Martial Arts

Splinter is undoubetly the single best fighter in this era of the TMNT, he's consistently proven capable of teambusting entire groups of master martial artists and has outmatched gradnmasters on a consistent basis. He has mastered virtually every weapon in existence, has accomplished supernatural feats through sheer knowledge and even though he prefers the style of Ninjutsu over anything, he's explicitly knowledgable in about anything combat-related known to man.

S2: The Good, the Bad and Casey Jones
S2: The Good, the Bad and Casey Jones

Splinter can effortlessly take down groups of trained warriors, even superhuman at that. When several Footbots attacked the sewers, Splinter defended it alongside April and his sons, taking out hordes of ninja. The Footbots are advanced androids developed by the Kraang to replace the traditional soldiers of the Foot Clan to be stronger, faster and much more skilled operatives. They can bust through concrete without a scratch, carry all kinds of bladed weapons and can copy every single technique they've seen in combat, even on the spot (think like a lowkey Taskmaster) and use them against their opponents;

"My Footbots know every move, every skill, every attack. You spend years learning a fighting style, and my robots learn it in seconds from you."

Karai (S2E03: Follow The Leader)

Splinter taking them down so effortlessly is a true testament to his ability. He has also taught the turtles literally "everything they know" - besides one of the Shredder's techniques taught to Micky by an undercover goon - and usually spars with them to take note of their improvement. They never really reached a level where they could actually compete with their master, with the possible exception of Leonardo growing significantly as a fighter by the end of the series. Splinter has been seen taking them out incredibly casually on more than occasion.

S1: I, Monster
S1: I, Monster
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S1: I, Monster

He's getting ready to fight them all with his eyes closed, sense each of them coming and take them out one by one;

  • Scan 1: Mickey charges from behind with a full forward double kick, Splinter senses him, and moving at least twice as fast as his son, he grabs him and takes him down. Raphael and Donatello throw themselves at him from 2 opposite directions, Spinter evades both of them.
  • Scan 2: He senses Leo performing a double kick from behind, dodges it, trips up Donnie and throws off Raph and then sends them both flying and spinning away.

Individually, the turtles are quite impressive [Leonardo can match Karai, a girl who was presumably around the age of 10 when she cleared a room of 15 fully grown warriors quite easily, and evenly exchange blows with her while identifying and listing the techniques they're using], [Donatello is a good enough fighter to circumvent telepathy in the form of precognition from a metahuman 1-2-3], [Michelangelo's raw acrobatic ability, precision and use of monmentum makes him very formidable] and Raph is canonically the best fighter on the team besides Leonardo. On top of that their teamwork is top notch, and for this particular match, they came up with a very specific gameplan on how to land a hit on Splinter (which Leo did at the end). Splinter still pretty much blitzed them with his eyes closed for the most part, and used their own attacks against them like they were nothing.

S2: Of Rats and Men
S2: Of Rats and Men

Splinter has taken on the Rat King, a metahuman who has proven more personal an enemy than anyone besides the Shredder himself to Yoshi. The Rat King initially had full control over Splinter's mind, with his ability to talk to and hypnotise rats, but Splinter managed to overcome this through his willpower and mental strength and kept doing so when he came face to face with him. The Rat King still managed to dance around Splinter for a while and outreact him due to his precognitive abilities. Quickly however, Splinter focused and managed to overcome both the Rat King's attempts to gain control of his mind as well as his precognition through sheer speed and instinct. He knocked out his partner Rat, "Aristotle" and stole the blindfold that aided his abilities, without the Rat King even realising what happened.

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S1: It Came from the Depths, S3: The Creeping Doom

His opponent here is basically a big, giant, per your own word "musclehead", esspecially compared to someone like Splinter. I feel like Splinter's fights with incredibly physically imposing beasts should be noted, as he can consistently make short work of them.

  • Scan 1 & 2: Splinter fends off Leatherhead right after he teambusted the turtles through sheer physicality; he is incredibly strong and durable and his savagery as a bloodlusted mutated aligator is immense, he's also twice Splinter's size. Yoshi uses his own monmentum against him and sends him flying, then dances around him all the while performing advanced small joint manipulation to ragdoll him and put him in a sumbissive position, forcing him to flee.
  • Scan 3: Splinter swiftly takes down the Creep, one of the more dangerous opponents the turtles have gone up against in straight up combat. In the very same day, the Creep proved far too powerful - moments before Splinter attacked it, it swiftly outdrew Leonardo, then overpowered him and choked him out. Later on, he literally no sold everything Raph could throw in his way, punches, kicks and armed Sai attempts. He doesn't even flinch, he barely moves, and it's worth noting that Raph tired out before being able to deal actual damage.

Splinter uses a very specific technique when it comes to knocking his opponents out cold and deailng massive amounts of output with very subtle movements. He's used it twice, against his most personal of opponents.

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S1: I, Monster, S2: Invasion II
  • Scan 1: Splinter takes down the Rat King, using nothing but 2 fingertips to send him flying at extreme speeds crushing on a wall and landing so hard on the ground that it causes a small crater. Take note of the shockwave this attack cause in condact with his body.
  • Scan 2: He does the same thing as above to the Shredder, but this time, he had absolutely no real build-up besides a brief moment of taking stance to aim for Saki's chest and achieve the same effects. Keep in mind that Shredder had just used blinding powder bomb and smashed it on Spinter's face to mess him up.

This technique can be used to further icnrease the chances of putting down Sagara.

Of course I couldn't write down a post for Master Splinter without bringing up one of his many fights against Oroku Saki, A.K.A. the Shredder, one of the few people who can stand their ground against Splinter 1 on 1 and not get dropped in seconds. I feel like their fight in New York, their last fight before the Shredder's mutation, is the most relevant here, as it highlights Splinter's potential output.

S4: Earth's Last Stand
S4: Earth's Last Stand

Initially, they're trading and parrying attacks evenly for quite a while, with neither gaining the upper hand, Splinter with his Sword/Cane and Shredder with his signature blades. That is until Splinter decided to attempt a full forward kick on the Shredder, who grabs him and overpowers him, throwing him in a nearby wall. Splinter quickly recovers from it, and even disarmed, manages to hit Saki on a pressure point on the arm.

At this point I'd like to note that the Shredder has taken on the Turtles and the Mighty Mutanimals all at once and practically stomped them [1], [2], [3] - this is such an incredible demonstration of skill that it requires quite the analysis, but for now I'll just say that everyone Shredder is fighting there is either a very dangerous superhuman, a master martial artist, a metahuman with unique and versatile abilities or all of it combined, and yet he doesn't get touched a single time besides a ranged attack from a telepath which he shruggs off in a moment. This is who Splinter has always been more skilled than.

S4: Earth's Last Stand
S4: Earth's Last Stand

He then lands a handful of nerve strikes to paralyse the Shredder, something that might very well work to bypass your character's durability, and sends him flying and landing on his knees with one mighty double palm strike. He walks towards him and finishes him off with a hgihily precise strike on the chest - do note that this put the Shredder in a comma. I mean, this literally wrecked his entire body and made him unable to stand or walk for months, dude required Baxter Stockman to offer constant life-support just to keep him alive, and he only recovered when he was mutated to become the beast known as the Super Shredder. Something that can potentially kill the Shredder might very well be enough to put down Sagara.

Keep in mind that the Shredder is durable enough to tank been rammed by Letherhead who had just busted his way through a concrete wall, then get repeatedly crunched by him and thrown away like a ragdoll. He's up seconds later showing that he can fight something as large, savage and strong as a massive, giant, mutated aligator, wrestle with him, throw him off through sheer skill and then brutally kick him several feet away to finish him off. Legitimately, the Shredder should be on a similar weight class to your character, and Splinter was capable of straight up murdering him unarmed.

Speed

Splinter's sensory was enhansed to even greater levels after his mutation, he gained the speed of a literal rat, impressive awareness, unrivalled sense of smell, hearing and sight, all to aid his reaction speeds and incredible movement and combat speed to an incredible extent.

Splinter can clearly react to high speed projectiles with little to no effort.

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S1: Turtle Temper, S1: Baxter's Gambit
  • Scan 1: in training with his sons, he caught an arrow shot by Donatello towards Raph between his fingertips and didn't even flinch.
  • Scan 2: while helping April O'Neil figure out the right weapon of choice for her, they used many different weapons. The razor she was practicing with got out of control, she threw it spinning in the air and it was coming right back at her, Splinter caught it between his fingertips saving her life. Note the precision here, he grabbed a very specific part of the spinning blade.

Of course the most important aspect in this battle is combat speed, and Splinter has that is spades. He's consistently capable of outright speedblitzing his turtle sons.

S1: I, Monster
S1: I, Monster

The turtles are quite damn fast, besides being effortless arrow timers, they can time spammed missiles and even bullets. This is one of the few instances on the show where the timing of the bullet is cut-clear, as we explicitly hear the shot been made before Mickey dodges. Tiger Claw's ice and heat guns are indeed just reinforced firearms that seemingly shoot moderatly high caliber bullets, as shown when Alopex, an incredibly fast speedster assassin percieved them in slow mo.

Splinter has duplicated the above feat with several opponents equal to or more capable than the Turtles to prove consistency, but I won't get into it now.

Counters

For example, the first thing he does is take a Suntetsu to the face, which is a 6-inch metal rod to the face. He shrugs it off, on top of the fact that the guy who stabs him hits him in the face with it so hard he broke his own arm with how durable Sano is.

Then casually one shots him with a finger flick.

The impressive part about it seems to be the fact that the guy broke his arm trying to hurt Sano, but I'd wager this can at least be replicated by the likes of Letherhead and the Creep, beings Splinter can definitely put down, eventually. These guys literally bust through concrete just to do it, which speaking of, is something even Foortbots can do - and Footbots have been slaughtered, manhandled and fodderised by people much weaker physically than Leatherhead himself. Their skin and muscle mass is definitely several times more durable than concrete.

The striking part is definitely something Splinter himself can do, if nothing else, due to technique.

Nowadays he's a barehanded fighter ever since Kenshin cut his sword in half. And his strength really shows. For example he grabbed a statue by its base lifted it up attempted to use it as a weapon and smashed it.

Not that it will get to a strength contest, but even if it does, Kraang Supreme should be able to easily replicate this, and Splinter is capable of taking him on in a brute strength contest quite impressively.

And a sweet feat of his, although its not necessarily his best feat, is taking a flurry of blows from Kenshin.

I'm not sure if Splinter would be able to replicate this swords feat, but I will say that Leonardo has cut through steel repeatedly (not as impressively as Kenshin does here), and Splinter is clearly on a whole different weight class than him and the people he scales to, such as Karai and Tiger Claw.

Despite Splinter's durability, this technique should allow him to deal out the damage necessary to put him down for good.

Legitimately, Sano would have to land a huge, huge load of hits to put down Splinter. The guy fell down over a thousand feet, while he was been forced onto concrete and wrestled down by a multitonner in the Super Shredder - the SS is way past Sano's weight class too, he stopped the Shellracer dead on its tracks, overpowered its monmentum at full speeds and lifted it and threw it up in the air like a ragdoll - and constantly had his face knocked on hard steel afterwards.

I could probably scale Sano to Kenshin somehow, but he has feats of his own and other characters he can reasonably scale to. Sano despite his straightforward and muscle head approach, he's actually deceptively fast.

This is something I'd like to focus on. The turtles are every bit as fast as Sano, and Splinter has consistently proven capable of practically blitzing them in combat, moving around without them even realising, dodging them out effortlessly and hitting them around before they can react. The same applies to the entire roster of opponents Splinter has outright blitzed as well, like the Shredder's highest ranking goons, but I haven't brought those fights up.

To keep it simple, I believe Sanosuke has enough brute force to take down Hamato, and honestly I cannot see him putting him down. His skill in hand to hand does worry me, but I feel Sanosuke has been in enough fights to keep up and I'll elaborate on that after your opener.

Given the tremendous gap in sheer speed and combat skill, I feel like Splinter could easily pull off his best moves against Sano, meaning he can either put him down through blunt force (eventually), or, well if that goes to hell somehow, Splinter can use pressure points to incapacitate him. If that for some reason goes to hell too, he has a wide array of weapons he can use to bring him down, maybe restrain him and target vital/exposed parts of the body like the eyes using a bladed weapons, his swords, knives or throwing stars. I'll wait for your next post, but I'll be seriously impressed if your character proves fast enough to keep up, or skilled enough to prevent Splinter's attempts or touch him at all.

Initial Thoughts

You haven't shown everything, but for now, I think this fight will be decided rather quickly. While your character is very imposing physically, it's nothing new to Hamato, and he has several different ways to put him down, whereas, from what you've presented so far, tagging Splinter or even avoid getting outright blitzed will be an impossible issue. I haven't gotten into Splinter's most imprpessive showings of skill and the more dangerous opponents he's taken down, nor have I brought up the rest of his skillset besides direct martial arts and physical stats yet, if needed I will, but right now I'll stand by this being a plausible sweep.

@deathhero61 you're up my man!

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#20 Posted by ANTHP2000 (27896 posts) - - Show Bio
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#21 Posted by DeathHero61 (18832 posts) - - Show Bio

@anthp2000: Jesus that was amazing, you should enter with splinter more often. I will have a post sometime tomorrow or next week.

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#22 Posted by ANTHP2000 (27896 posts) - - Show Bio

@deathhero61: Like I said I'm really willing to represent the crap outta this universe here.

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#23 Posted by Jacthripper (14983 posts) - - Show Bio
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#24 Posted by ANTHP2000 (27896 posts) - - Show Bio
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#25 Posted by ourmanuel (11964 posts) - - Show Bio

TAEP

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#26 Edited by DeathHero61 (18832 posts) - - Show Bio

@anthp2000: my post will be up this week for sure. Just finished an important math test

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#27 Edited by Helloman (30115 posts) - - Show Bio

This is weird.

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#28 Posted by ANTHP2000 (27896 posts) - - Show Bio
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#29 Posted by DeathHero61 (18832 posts) - - Show Bio
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#30 Posted by DeathHero61 (18832 posts) - - Show Bio

@anthp2000:

Round 2

No Caption Provided

Strength/Durability

Splinter can outright wrestle with multitonners. Kraang Supreme had infiltrated the Lair during the Invasion of the Kraang, and Splinter was forced to fight him alone. Kraang Supreme can completely effortlessly lift something as heavy as a pinball machine with 1 arm and throw it yards away, and Splinter took him on and held his own in a raw strength contest for quite a while.

Pinball machines are about 300 pounds, maybe a little more, I've seen peak humans who have done better, and look at the gif you posted?

No Caption Provided

That's a few feet at most, superhumans in live action TV shows do stuff like that all the time and that is generally less impressive than what I showed for Kenshin. Heck your average peak human like Batman or Daredevil could do the same thing

Naturally, his striking ouput is even more immpressive, launching the turtles away with incredible ease; what's important to note here is that those aren't soft hits to throw an opponent out of balance or any mighty strikes that required build-up: they're Splinter's casual and average punches and kicks, this is the damage those deal.

Pretty typical stuff, not as impressive as what I shown for Kenshin, or Sanosuke, Sanosuke can deal with that level of striking power as I shown for Kenshin.

Sanosuke tanked a headbutt that not only left a decently sized crack on the wall, the person who gave him the headbutt even stated it would break a human skull.

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He then proceeds to survive several of those same headbutts, then one shots the guy.

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As soon as the fight is over he immediately KOs but regains consciousness not long after.

Sanosuke while severely injured and barely able to stand, took a punch from Shisio Makoto that smacked him into a concrete wall. Admittedly he was KO'd, but he regained consciousness a couple of minutes later.

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BTW I just want to clarify in case there was a misunderstanding, Kenshin has a reversed blade, in his fight against Sano, he used primarily blunt force. Sanosuke does have other piercing resistance feats though.

On a different note, he's also demonstrated decent piercing resistence and/or pain tolerance against penetrating weapons. When Karai slashed him on the shoulder with her sword, he was barely stunned for a moment. Karai can also cut clean through the Kraang's metalic android bodies with no effort whatsoever using similar attempts to this.

Sanosuke has feats on par with this if not way better considering how fragile the Kraang's metal bodies seem to be. Saito Hajime, with his Gatosu technique stabbed and smashed Sano through a wooden wall, but the blade broke in his body.

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It wasn't his standard sword, it was admittedly a sword for self-defense so his power was likely dramatically reduced, especially since it broke. However the technique is meant for pure force, and stabbing power, it would generally rip opponents apart.

Anime Version:

https://youtu.be/Qvo7SBCIB8o?t=157(around 2:40)

Saito has done even better with his actual katana, smashing through large double wooden doors, and ripping up the concrete floor as he moves with speed and force

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Anime Version:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rJDo5f-Im8k

Skill

Sanosuke is a fight merchant for a reason, he is fairly good at close quarters combat despite his one dimensional nature, and very adaptive. Obviously, Sanosuke doesn't compare to Splinter in this category, and I won't even argue he can match with him in terms of raw skill, I just want to make note of his battle sense and intuition.

For example, read and predicted that because of the technique Anji taught him(Futae No Kiwami) and the way he applies it, that he was simply a wall of muscle that can be outpaced and use his speed to his advantage. Anji however had a counterattack prepared to stop his technique.

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Sanosuke after watching him once, performed the same exact counterattack to stop the force of his attack, then in that interval managed to tag him and temporarily KO Anji.

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In his first fight against Inui Banshin, he got completely outplayed and caught off guard by his fighting style. His gauntlet being a solid guard, and his mobility and unique hand to hand skills

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After fighting him for a second time, he was fighting him evenly, he dodged a lot more of his attacks, and clashed with him evenly.

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Notice in the first two scans how he smoothly dodges his punch and counterattacks, earlier on in their rematch, he was getting tagged by his moves way more consistently and couldn't dodge or block a single blow.

One of what I think is one of his better feats is when he beat down 200 men, many of them were armed with swords, clubs, knives, scythes and the like, and I highly doubt this feat is merely a brute force feat, he would have had to take them all on directly, trying to take the least amount of blows as possible. And he even states that he was holding back so he didn't accidentally kill them with the force of his blows. Mindless brute or not, that's pretty impressive for someone who's only been in street fights, he's like Casey Jones except that he actually has experience. This is a combination, of stamina, strength, speed and skill.

Sanosuke's skill isn't really notable compared to Splinter, but I'd compare him to the turtles and casey jones, at least in terms of battle sense, which combined with his durability, should be effective enough to help secure a win.

Speed

The turtles are quite damn fast, besides being effortless arrow timers, they can time spammed missiles and even bullets. This is one of the few instances on the show where the timing of the bullet is cut-clear, as we explicitly hear the shot been made before Mickey dodges. Tiger Claw's ice and heat guns are indeed just reinforced firearms that seemingly shoot moderatly high caliber bullets, as shown when Alopex, an incredibly fast speedster assassin percieved them in slow mo.

The turtles feats aren't as impressive. Reacting to gatling gun fire is a better reaction time feat than what essentially amounts to pistol fire. In addition, Sanosuke scales to two characters who have feats that are better than the turtles. Saito, and Banshin(the martial artist I showed above) I'll start with Saito, Saito's Gatotsu technique was stated to be faster than rifle bullets, which are generally faster than handgun rounds.

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Sanosuke in his rematch against Saito, managed to catch his Gatotsu before it fully connected,(either that or in the same interval as it did connect he immediately aimed to break his arm before Saito can pull his arm back, but considering the panel flow, and the artist' art style, the former seems more likely) although it was a barehanded version, it shouldn't be much slower than his blade.(also another feat of Sanosuke's ability to adapt is that before he was unable to defend against a gatotsu technique from Saito, but here he did)

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Banshin, the guy with the gauntlets was deflecting gunfire.

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I think Sanosuke is in Splinter's ballpark, and is faster than his students.

Other Counters

The impressive part about it seems to be the fact that the guy broke his arm trying to hurt Sano, but I'd wager this can at least be replicated by the likes of Letherhead and the Creep, beings Splinter can definitely put down, eventually.

These guys literally bust through concrete just to do it, which speaking of, is something even Foortbots can do - and Footbots have been slaughtered, manhandled and fodderised by people much weaker physically than Leatherhead himself. Their skin and muscle mass is definitely several times more durable than concrete.

He mostly puts them down via pressure point combat and using their own strength against them, you showed us much. The feat is impressive because the weapon doesn't lack an edge, yet he remained completely unphased by the strike.

Do you mind citing the episodes for those feats or simply posting them?

Not that it will get to a strength contest, but even if it does, Kraang Supreme should be able to easily replicate this, and Splinter is capable of taking him on in a brute strength contest quite impressively.

Throwing a pinball machine isn't that impressive.

I'm not sure if Splinter would be able to replicate this swords feat, but I will say that Leonardo has cut through steel repeatedly (not as impressively as Kenshin does here), and Splinter is clearly on a whole different weight class than him and the people he scales to, such as Karai and Tiger Claw.

My apologies, I forgot to mention that Kenshin's sword is a Sakabato, a blade that is reversed, so this feat is a blunt force feat in terms of durability, however, what I posted above should be sufficient enough for now.

Legitimately, Sano would have to land a huge, huge load of hits to put down Splinter. The guy fell down over a thousand feet, while he was been forced onto concrete and wrestled down by a multitonner in the Super Shredder - the SS is way past Sano's weight class too, he stopped the Shellracer dead on its tracks, overpowered its monmentum at full speeds and lifted it and threw it up in the air like a ragdoll - and constantly had his face knocked on hard steel afterwards.

I'm not sure that's enough, Sanosuke's Futae No Kiwami can destroy steel gauntlets that are bulletproof and the arms of the one it was protecting.

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Destroying steel with physical force should be more than enough to deal damage, honestly his regular blows won't cut it, but blows via this technique should given its nature. Shredder in this instant was overpowering him, its not like he was being forcefully crushed or choked or something, and he clearly didn't tank his blows earlier in the fight if stepping on his foot was enough to make him scream in pain. In their midair battle, the most impressive thing about this feat is the fact that survived the fall that he did, but that ended up knocking him out anyway, so we cannot properly quantify what it takes to do damage to him since the one thing he survived took him out for hours. I can give various examples of people at their max potential of durability in fiction, but what knocks them out consistently. What your brain can handle leading to unconsciousness is different from what your body can handle.

This is something I'd like to focus on. The turtles are every bit as fast as Sano, and Splinter has consistently proven capable of practically blitzing them in combat, moving around without them even realising, dodging them out effortlessly and hitting them around before they can react. The same applies to the entire roster of opponents Splinter has outright blitzed as well, like the Shredder's highest ranking goons, but I haven't brought those fights up.

Based off what you specifically shown, Sano is actually a good deal faster and should be in Splinter's ballpark.

Given the tremendous gap in sheer speed and combat skill, I feel like Splinter could easily pull off his best moves against Sano, meaning he can either put him down through blunt force (eventually), or, well if that goes to hell somehow, Splinter can use pressure points to incapacitate him. If that for some reason goes to hell too, he has a wide array of weapons he can use to bring him down, maybe restrain him and target vital/exposed parts of the body like the eyes using a bladed weapons, his swords, knives or throwing stars. I'll wait for your next post, but I'll be seriously impressed if your character proves fast enough to keep up, or skilled enough to prevent Splinter's attempts or touch him at all.

Given Sano's ability to adapt to disadvantages, and the feats that he does have in speed, he shouldn't get blitzed by Splinter, and blunt force shouldn't be enough at all given his track record, pressure points shouldn't even be effective at all now that you mention it.

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And like I said, bladed weaponry, isn't too effective, shuriken at best would cause superficial cuts, and scans showing Splinter has ever resorted to bladed weaponry in a non-bloodlusted situation? Let alone any of his other gear? The sword would seem to be the most effective weapon he has to actually hurt Sano and if he goes for a stab he might break his sword. Splinter doesn't seem to use his sword often in character anyway.

To summarize

Sanosuke should be durable enough to take any blunt force blow from Splinter, pressure points shouldn't be too effective, and the longer the battle goes on the more Sanosuke will be given a chance to push his limits and possibly read some of Splinter's moves maybe enough to find decent enough openings to land damage dealing blows that even Splinter cannot ignore.

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#31 Posted by ANTHP2000 (27896 posts) - - Show Bio
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#32 Posted by Jacthripper (14983 posts) - - Show Bio
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#35 Edited by ANTHP2000 (27896 posts) - - Show Bio

I'm working on this one rn. I hope it's not too late?

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#36 Posted by ANTHP2000 (27896 posts) - - Show Bio

Master Splinter: Rebuttals

No Caption Provided

I want to say once more that Splinter's lifting strength and durability will hardly be much of a factor here based on my strategy - it's more about speed, skill and output. I just felt the need to cover these as Splinter's showings are quite impressive and he will not get manhandled here or even close to it.

Pinball machines are about 300 pounds, maybe a little more,

Well damn you got me there. I still find it impressive that he just grabbed it with 1 arm and threw it several yards away like that. We haven't seen Kraang Prime's limit so keep in mind that's just a hint of what he can do. Splinter's faced stronger opponents very efficiently in the past anyway, something I'll elaborate on below.

Sanosuke tanked a headbutt that not only left a decently sized crack on the wall, the person who gave him the headbutt even stated it would break a human skull.

He then proceeds to survive several of those same headbutts, then one shots the guy. As soon as the fight is over he immediately KOs but regains consciousness not long after.

He looks stunned and floored by the first one, and the fact that he got KO'd basically shows his limit. I do think Splinter remaining coscious during that fall is more impressive given he was been damaged physically by the Super Shredder while falling.

Sanosuke has feats on par with this if not way better considering how fragile the Kraang's metal bodies seem to be. Saito Hajime, with his Gatosu technique stabbed and smashed Sano through a wooden wall, but the blade broke in his body.

I won't disagree with you that he has feats just as good as this, but I'll note that the Kraang's bodies are only fragile because the characters make it look that way. When the turtles fought the Kraang in S1E1, "Rise of The Turtles", the Kraang took all their blades and their weapons like nothing.

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It wasn't until a little bit later when they adapted and trained well enough to fodderise them. So the Kraang's bodies, being advanced alien metal and all, definitely have a solid degree of piercing resistence.

One of what I think is one of his better feats is when he beat down 200 men, many of them were armed with swords, clubs, knives, scythes and the like, and I highly doubt this feat is merely a brute force feat, he would have had to take them all on directly, trying to take the least amount of blows as possible. And he even states that he was holding back so he didn't accidentally kill them with the force of his blows. Mindless brute or not, that's pretty impressive for someone who's only been in street fights, he's like Casey Jones except that he actually has experience. This is a combination, of stamina, strength, speed and skill.

Casey Jones is a horrible walking PIS machine who fights ninjas and aliens with a hockey stick and no training Yes, while that's imrpessive I think it's worth noting that they clearly couldn't do much to hurt him, so even though it's solid, his stats advantage is large part he cleared this. Not like when Splinter or the turtles go untouched by large groups of well trained individuals. I mean, Karai easily took out a room of grown, trained ninja 3 times her size unarmed before Shredder even considered her good enough to give her a weapon. It's only a decent hint of where an adult grandmaster like Splinter stands.

The turtles feats aren't as impressive. Reacting to gatling gun fire is a better reaction time feat than what essentially amounts to pistol fire. In addition, Sanosuke scales to two characters who have feats that are better than the turtles. Saito, and Banshin(the martial artist I showed above) I'll start with Saito, Saito's Gatotsu technique was stated to be faster than rifle bullets, which are generally faster than handgun rounds.

Sanosuke in his rematch against Saito, managed to catch his Gatotsu before it fully connected,(either that or in the same interval as it did connect he immediately aimed to break his arm before Saito can pull his arm back, but considering the panel flow, and the artist' art style, the former seems more likely) although it was a barehanded version, it shouldn't be much slower than his blade.(also another feat of Sanosuke's ability to adapt is that before he was unable to defend against a gatotsu technique from Saito, but here he did)

I think this should be enough to say he's got better reactions than the turtles (not like we've seen the turtles against assault riffles but yes, that's a better feat than timing pistol bullets), but I'm still not convinced this is enough to keep up with Splinter, who basically operates on an entirely different level of speed. He can blitz people who can time these pistol bullets.

S1: I, Monster
S1: I, Monster

I mean just look at that. It's 4 people fast enough to react to bullets simultaneously - and they cannot react to Splinter just moving out of the way. In fact they're sitting there for over a second trying to process what the hell happened, how their target just disappeared in thin air. Yes, Sanosuke can react to faster bullets (admittedly I'm not an expert on firearms and bullets, so correct me if I'm wrong), but what's there to say he can actually apply this level of speed in combat so efficiently that actual bullet timers cannot even percieve him? In groups? I said that I'll prove this level of speed is consistent with opponents other than the turtles too:

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Here, Splinter is facing Dogpound and Fishface, 2 of Shredder's top men. First off, keep in mind that Fishface has always been portrayed as faster than the turtles, even after their first unholy blitz stomp fight, he kept deomnstrating a speed and mobility edge on them, that's pretty much his whole thing. And then there's Dogpound, a beast with enhansed sensory (he could smell the turtles spying on them from several streets away). But through a combination of stealth and speed, Splinter utterly humiliates them both at the same time. He appears in a teleport-like way behind them, he outmaneuvers them incredibly effortlessly, he again moves faster than they can react and they're so slow in comparison that their attacks land on each other. They then run desperately away.

Additionally, this showing for Mickey isn't the only bullet timing instance in the series, or even the best one.

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This is Shinigami, Karai's old friend from Japan and an elite assassin who's basically on Leonardo's rank as a ninja, good but nowhere near Splinter - she also times Tiger Claw's enhanced fire, but she does so from a decent distance away, intercepting the shot and getting Karai out of the way. The same standard applies here, the shot was made after Shinigami intercepted.

Point being, Splinter can easily dance around people who time bullets.

He mostly puts them down via pressure point combat and using their own strength against them, you showed us much. The feat is impressive because the weapon doesn't lack an edge, yet he remained completely unphased by the strike.

I want to focus on that one. You showed a solid example of your character resisting a nerve strikes-like technique, but is his opponent established besides his fight with Sanosuke? Splinter didn't use this technique in regular beings at all. The Creep literally did not budge after Raphael furiously punched and stabbed him repeatedly with his Sai. It literally did not move. And the turtles, let alone the physically strongest one, Raph, are clearly very superhuman. They make multistory leaps without trying and Raph in particular has always been able to take on opponents tougher than his brothers could physically. Here he fights off Slash and wrestles with him quite impressive for a while, even going through brick walls with him in the process. And Slash with Leatherhead's help could match the Super Shredder's strength (who only overwhelmed them through his enormous skill advantage), the same guy that picked up a truck and threw it away like a toy.

This might look like extensive scaling but just think about the fact that Raph can content with multitonners physically and he could not even faze the Creep, which Splinter was effectively putting down using pressure points.

Do you mind citing the episodes for those feats or simply posting them?

Which feat are you referring to here? I did show Letherhead ramming through a concrete wall to fight the Shredder and the Foot-Bots busting through a wall, without really trying. And as I showed, Splinter can effortlessly put down Foot-Bots.

Destroying steel with physical force should be more than enough to deal damage, honestly his regular blows won't cut it, but blows via this technique should given its nature. Shredder in this instant was overpowering him, its not like he was being forcefully crushed or choked or something, and he clearly didn't tank his blows earlier in the fight if stepping on his foot was enough to make him scream in pain. In their midair battle, the most impressive thing about this feat is the fact that survived the fall that he did, but that ended up knocking him out anyway, so we cannot properly quantify what it takes to do damage to him since the one thing he survived took him out for hours. I can give various examples of people at their max potential of durability in fiction, but what knocks them out consistently. What your brain can handle leading to unconsciousness is different from what your body can handle.

I get what you mean here. I agree that it does not take the output of a thousand foot tall, half a dozen of steel bar slams, concrete surfing and a multitonner to put down Splinter; the point is, he can physically handle a lot of punishment and power through. As long as we agree that Sanosuke won't have an easy time putting down Splinter, I've made my point.

And like I said, bladed weaponry, isn't too effective, shuriken at best would cause superficial cuts, and scans showing Splinter has ever resorted to bladed weaponry in a non-bloodlusted situation? Let alone any of his other gear? The sword would seem to be the most effective weapon he has to actually hurt Sano and if he goes for a stab he might break his sword. Splinter doesn't seem to use his sword often in character anyway.

You're right, Splinter prefers hand to hand when he knows he can win. If it's a life or death situation and he has to put someone down, he'll use it. He actually made extensive use of his weapons against the Super Shredder in their final fight, as well as against the Triceratons. My point is, Splinter will go for his usual IC tactics here: pressure points, stealth, speed and hand to hand. But if this all fails to put him down, he's going to resort to his other, more lethal options, like he's done in the past. He's a trained killer afterall. As for the piercing resistence, like I said, if it all goes to hell, he can target weaker spots, and honestly, even more regular sword slashes would work - just look at this here:

S4: Requiem
S4: Requiem

I've already mentioned how Karai can effortlessly cut clean through beings with piercing resistence in the Kraang. When she tried to stab the Super Shredder through the heart to kill him though, her sword shattered in conduct. His heart is also the weakest spot on his body as per her own word after fighting him, and this still did nothing but break her own weapon like you've shown for Sanosuke and some of his opponents.

S4: Requiem
S4: Requiem

Pretty much Splinter's entire fight with the Super Shredder is very impressive, esspecially considering he was fatigued throughout the entire episode until this final battle, but I want to take note of this moment where managed to cut off the Super Shredder's blades, the sources of his mutagen. Again, when Karai tried to hit a weaker spot than this, her sword shattered, and the blades themselves can easily tear apart large pieces of concrete. But Splinter, through his skill and strength, managed to pull this stuff off. I feel as though this should suffice to say that if Hamato does resort to his bladed weapons, he can take down Sanosuke based on what you've shown.

Conclusion

What you've shown for Sanosuke in this post was definitely impressive, but I still think he's not well equipped to deal with Splinter. He can certainly dance around him, he can apply nerve strikes to - at the very least - weaken him, if he can't take him down unarmed he will certainly go for other options. He's got other weapons to mess him up too, wether or not he'll resort to using blinding powder or fiber wire like he's done against other very physically imposing opponents (instead of relying solely on his fists) is another story, but I don't think he will need to regardless. Even in the worst case scenario where Splinter will get tagged (I honestly do not see this happening once), he can certainly take it.

@deathhero61@jacthripper it's up!

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#37 Posted by ANTHP2000 (27896 posts) - - Show Bio

bump for voters

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#38 Posted by ANTHP2000 (27896 posts) - - Show Bio
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