Lucifer (Supernatural) vs Morgoth (Lotr)

@stonerthps: lol some of the gods in supernatural can get killed by having pine branches stabbed into them. They are nowhere on Odin's league

@stonerthps: lol some of the gods in supernatural can get killed by having pine branches stabbed into them. They are nowhere on Odin's league

I'll go with Morgoth.

@TheWitchingHour said:

@LordOfAllHumans said:

@TheWitchingHour said:

I think it's important to note that not only did Lucifer destroy Castiel's vessel with snap of his fingers, he also destroyed Castiel's essence. Without any sort of Angelic blade that's an extremely high feat. Also to say that Lucy is less powerful than Michael is erroneous. They are supposed to be equals. Michael just won the last fight. The only two beings who are legitimately more powerful than him are God and Death (Death being debatable).

That being said I agree that Morgoth would win this fight. I think that just due to the nature of television vs. books Morgoth's feats are more significant and epic in scale. And even though Morgoth can't kill Lucifer he can incapacitate him temporarily. That's enough to give him the win in my book.

What's more important is that Castiel had lost his grace and he was nearly human as it was shown in the alternate future that he would eventually become fully human after being cut off from Heaven. Lucifer only really killed a normal guy when he snapped Castiel into oblivion. This feat was not high end and was less impressive than killing the Pagans.

If Lucifer had killed a normal guy he would have killed Jimmy Novak right? Castiel's essence and his grace were still inside the vessel Jimmy Novak but being permanently cut off from Heaven affected his powers and almost negated them. Essentially he was an Angel who couldn't fight back. That would have been the case if he was connected to Heaven as well because at that point Lucifer was completely out of Castiel's league. To my knowledge Anna is the only angel on the show who has actually lost her grace. Lucifer still obliterated the essence of an Angel without an angelic blade, death's scythe, holy weapons (which also couldn't kill the essence of an angel) or the Colt. That's a pretty impressive feat.

He did kill Jimmy because Jimmy is the vessel, but Castiel at that time was powerless and just a mind that was in Jimmy as he told Jimmy that if he took Castiel back in he would forever be Castiel. In Two Minutes to Midnight Cas says he is without any power and needs pain medication and food and money and is bothered by a bug bite, he was basically human (just like we saw him in the future) which would mean he lost his grace at some point after banishing the other angels with the seal on his chest. If bug bites bother him and he is feeling pain and hunger then he was essentially human and as I said killing him at that point was no big deal as all Lucifer did was kill an ordinary guy.

Hmm, should be a pretty good fight, but I can still see Lucifer winning, as I doubt Morgoth could put him down for good. It wouldn't be as simply as Lucifer clicking his fingers and it being over.

Quick question, can either of them die permanetly? because i hear people left and right saying they both can come back or reconstuct their body's after its destroyed, if thats the case then its a stalemate, then i go look at the character who can bring down the other faster and more eddicient and by looks of things i think its this Morgoth guy, he seems to have more destuctive powers than Lucifer.

@niBBit said:

Quick question, can either of them die permanetly? because i hear people left and right saying they both can come back or reconstuct their body's after its destroyed, if thats the case then its a stalemate, then i go look at the character who can bring down the other faster and more eddicient and by looks of things i think its this Morgoth guy, he seems to have more destuctive powers than Lucifer.

Angels (Archangels included) can be killed permanently, by blades and anything equal or greater to them in power. Cas didn't need a blade to kill an Archangel and apparently Death was only going to need his had to kill Cas the mutant Angel.

@LordOfAllHumans Archangels can blow up Castiel even when he is a normal angel... Its not the first time when Castiel got blown up. If Lucifer snaps his fingers Castiel goes boom, human or angel. Can you tell me where in the show was it showed that Angels die permanently? Death stated that souls can't be destryoed, humans when they die they go to Heaven or Hell, monsters go to Purgatory. How do you know we have no place where angels go when they die? The show never addresed this. Now Cas did not need anything to kill and Archangel as he was something like God at that point.

@niBBit said:

Quick question, can either of them die permanetly? because i hear people left and right saying they both can come back or reconstuct their body's after its destroyed, if thats the case then its a stalemate, then i go look at the character who can bring down the other faster and more eddicient and by looks of things i think its this Morgoth guy, he seems to have more destuctive powers than Lucifer.

Morgoth has been defeated before, thrown through the Door of Night and cast into the Void, but it is said that he will rise again to fight and destroy in the final battle after learning how to break the Door of Night. This final battle is also known as Dagor Dagorath.

@VercingetorixTheGreat said:

@stonerthps: You can't compare the Valar to the puny gods Lucifer has killed

In supernatural verse the Valar could probably be compared to
Seraphim angels, they are very powerful but still below archangels.

@hermankeson said:

@VercingetorixTheGreat said:

@stonerthps: You can't compare the Valar to the puny gods Lucifer has killed

In supernatural verse the Valar could probably be compared to
Seraphim angels, they are very powerful but still below archangels.

Do you know who the Valar are??? Valar can create constellations, they created the sun, etc............ And you say archangels are more powerful.. You know what.. I pitty you. STOP TALKING ABOUT SOMETHING YOU DON'T KNOW ABOUT.

@kingkronos said:

@hermankeson said:

@VercingetorixTheGreat said:

@stonerthps: You can't compare the Valar to the puny gods Lucifer has killed

In supernatural verse the Valar could probably be compared to
Seraphim angels, they are very powerful but still below archangels.

Do you know who the Valar are??? Valar can create constellations, they created the sun, etc............ And you say archangels are more powerful.. You know what.. I pitty you. STOP TALKING ABOUT SOMETHING YOU DON'T KNOW ABOUT.

No need to lament him, just correct him. The Valar aren't gods.

@exhyni9 said:

@kingkronos: No lol its stated that the son will dethrone him no mention of wen or were so for all we know this is all part of the prophesy -.- ofcourse people dont believe in this religion anymore so there arent going to be any more addtions but he didnt change anything for all we know

And all your post were responded by the other people that were in the thread -.- though just for the fun of it

Lucifer body can be reformed infinitely so no matter how much his vessels body is destroyed he will always regenerate it back or just get another one -.-

As by the text in your prophecy once morgoth is killed by the sword then he will gone for good

Again unless you have something else to add Lucifer wins the thread -.-

I won't go again into that Zeus story, because you won't listen. He changed his fate NO ONE EVER DETHRONED HIM. He was the leader of the fates. He could change anyones fate he prefered to write the fate of kings', while the sisters of fate handled the rest. END OF DISCUSSION

Lucifer can die permenantely by the archangel blade. For all we know is that morgoth will be imprisoned forever since no one can be truly killed in LOTR myth.

@kingkronos said:

@hermankeson said:

@VercingetorixTheGreat said:

@stonerthps: You can't compare the Valar to the puny gods Lucifer has killed

In supernatural verse the Valar could probably be compared to
Seraphim angels, they are very powerful but still below archangels.

Do you know who the Valar are??? Valar can create constellations, they created the sun, etc............ And you say archangels are more powerful.. You know what.. I pitty you. STOP TALKING ABOUT SOMETHING YOU DON'T KNOW ABOUT.

Creating suns is nothing compared to what Arch Angels can do.. They can create universes.

@hermankeson said:

@kingkronos said:

@hermankeson said:

@VercingetorixTheGreat said:

@stonerthps: You can't compare the Valar to the puny gods Lucifer has killed

In supernatural verse the Valar could probably be compared to
Seraphim angels, they are very powerful but still below archangels.

Do you know who the Valar are??? Valar can create constellations, they created the sun, etc............ And you say archangels are more powerful.. You know what.. I pitty you. STOP TALKING ABOUT SOMETHING YOU DON'T KNOW ABOUT.

Creating suns is nothing compared to what Arch Angels can do.. They can create universes.

Gabriel didn't create a universe, he created a dimension. There is no proof that it was a universe.

@kingkronos: People need to understand in LOTR that other worlds don't matter like when people put Morgoth against someone who has taken over galaxies it really doesn't matter because Earth is the only IMPORTANT planet in the LOTR universe and the only one with life so conquering it would be like conquering the whole universe (which Morgoth has come close to conquering all of earth). I don't watch supernatural but I have seen clips and these so called Gods could get wooped by an elf.

Even Illuvatar couldn't kill Morgoth, only chain him.
 
His best weapon is his ability to trick people. He made Eru, Illuvatar, and all the other Valar, bar one (I forget who), believe he had changed. Twice. And then made an even eviller move. He killed the freaking Trees of the Valar. And the Lamps. And started a War with the Valar. 
His strongholds like Utumno were so well-hidden, the Valar couldn't find them.
 
Add that to his armies of Balrogs, Goblins, Dragons, etc. and his weaponry, like the Grond, I think Melkor is in with a shout here.

Why do people always pretend that the Ainur and Maiar are gods? They are not gods. There is only ONE god in the LoTR books.

That said I have no idea who would win this. Don't know much about Lucifer.

There is 1 thing you people don't understand. You don't need to kill Morgoth to win. Its irrelevant if he can die or not if he can be incapacitated, KO'ed or BFR'ed. Not stating that Lucifer can do it but if he can die or not is not really relevant as we have more then 1 way to win. Morgoth can't destroy 1 human soul(from Supernatural) but that does not mean a human would win...

@xan84 said:

@LordOfAllHumans Archangels can blow up Castiel even when he is a normal angel... Its not the first time when Castiel got blown up. If Lucifer snaps his fingers Castiel goes boom, human or angel. Can you tell me where in the show was it showed that Angels die permanently? Death stated that souls can't be destryoed, humans when they die they go to Heaven or Hell, monsters go to Purgatory. How do you know we have no place where angels go when they die? The show never addresed this. Now Cas did not need anything to kill and Archangel as he was something like God at that point.

You don't know the circumstances of Raph killing Cas to assume that Lucifer can just snap his fingers to kill other angels. especially when it took Michael more than a simple snap of the fingers to kill Anna. Even so Cas was human so your argument isn't really relevant to my point. I'm not here to prove that Archangels can't kill regular angels, only here to prove that Lucifer killing a human Cas is not a high end feat just because Cas use to be an angel

It shows it when they die and are never mentioned again, and that God has to bring them back, because according to Cas nothing else was powerful enough to resurrect him. The burden of proof is on you, the show kills them and they are gone unless God intervenes, it's speculation that they would go to an afterlife when have no souls, which is the only known way to be transported into an afterlife upon death, so unless next season shows dead angel graces in Purgatory they are all dead forever. When Dean and Sam separated their souls from their bodies they became ghosts, when Anna separated her grace it made a tree, the grace is the closest thing an angel has to a soul and a when not bonded to an angel did not move on to afterlife for angels, it stayed put until it was collected by another angel, and Anna didn't kill herself, so that is what we know only about the living grace of a fallen angel and not what happens to angels that are killed. The fact that the grace is called pure creation and God is the creator one can speculate that upon death that energy is just returned to God and an angel will only come back if he lets the energy go again.

Angels don't have souls which was also stated in the show, monsters and humans have souls so they go to the afterlife, demons are souls so they may too or they go where any ghost that is burnt goes. But so far you don't see any of them after final death either.

Since we are quoting Death, Cas was nothing like God in the eyes of the one being that knows God, the archangels have only been known to have seen God and speak to him some time at the beginning of time, Death seems to know him as a peer so I'll believe him when he says that "I know God and you are no God" he was just a mutant angel, powerful but nothing like God at all.

@VercingetorixTheGreat said:

@kingkronos: People need to understand in LOTR that other worlds don't matter like when people put Morgoth against someone who has taken over galaxies it really doesn't matter because Earth is the only IMPORTANT planet in the LOTR universe and the only one with life so conquering it would be like conquering the whole universe (which Morgoth has come close to conquering all of earth). I don't watch supernatural but I have seen clips and these so called Gods could get wooped by an elf.

I absolutely agree with you. I mean I know that Varda can create entire constellations, but she couldn't repair earth (Arda) after morgoth. That should show the importance of arda. Only Aule the 4th most powerful Valar was able to rebiult it. And even when he did Arda was changed into Marred Arda, because it could never be repaired as before. Same like in greek myth I might add, I always compare these two since they are very similar, And even Tolkien himself said that he picked many of his ideas from greek mythology. And there earth is Gaia who was the one who created the universe... Imagine destroying Gaia in myth.. It would be literally impossible. Right?

Ok here's my take on luci. He may not have a feat such a eating the sun and moon but if he is a better reality warped the Gabriel then I could prolly safely assume he used his reality warping feats to turn the gods into mortals and then killed and to me that is better then eating a ball of plasma and gas

@Trance241: What is so impressive about Gabriel's reality warping? Sauron was stated to be able to bend the very substance of the world by mere effort of his will. And he is nothing compared to Morgoth.

l only meant that lucifers was greater to the point that he was either A able to turn the pagan gods he fought into mere mortals which is why he did not need their specific kryptonite to kill them or B he warped his own essence into their kryptonite to kill then.

The pagan gods were very weak, you can't possibly consider that killing them in something impressive.

Well for supernatural the gods are powerful to were only a specific item can kill them and lucifer was able to warp reality enough to were he didn't need their weakness. That would be like someone killing superman without magic or kryptonite granted I'm not trying to say lucifer from spn could do that only in both verses they ( the pagans and superman) have weakness that have to be used to kill them and being able to do so without said weakness is what makes the feat impressive and making the pagan gods mortal or warping himself to by pass their Achilles heel means it would not be beyond his powers to turn this opponent into a mortal

Doesn't Lucifer control reality, warping and magic? I believe so, I don't see how Morgoth could beat him.

@kingkronos:

So you pretty much created another thread just to tell everybody that thinks Lucifer would win that they are wrong, and everybody that thinks Morgoth will win that they are right?

Thanks for reading,

Floopay

@Trance241 said:

Well for supernatural the gods are powerful to were only a specific item can kill them and lucifer was able to warp reality enough to were he didn't need their weakness. That would be like someone killing superman without magic or kryptonite granted I'm not trying to say lucifer from spn could do that only in both verses they ( the pagans and superman) have weakness that have to be used to kill them and being able to do so without said weakness is what makes the feat impressive and making the pagan gods mortal or warping himself to by pass their Achilles heel means it would not be beyond his powers to turn this opponent into a mortal

You say that Lucifer reality warped them, right? But do you have concrete proof of this? It's perfectly seen that the pagans were very weak. Dean and Sam were able to kill them.

@Floopay said:

@kingkronos:

So you pretty much created another thread just to tell everybody that thinks Lucifer would win that they are wrong, and everybody that thinks Morgoth will win that they are right?

Thanks for reading,

Floopay

I wouldn't bother. KingKronos has a hugely inflated idea of what the LoTR characters are capable of.

Really, Morgoth lacks feats and would get owned. I don't know why you (KingKronos) are making these threads about him....

These threads are getting old ....

@Baldy said:

@Floopay said:

@kingkronos:

So you pretty much created another thread just to tell everybody that thinks Lucifer would win that they are wrong, and everybody that thinks Morgoth will win that they are right?

Thanks for reading,

Floopay

I wouldn't bother. KingKronos has a hugely inflated idea of what the LoTR characters are capable of.

Why don't you mind your own business? You apparently have a hatred for Lotr characters. Now I don't know why, and I don't care. So stop accusing me of something I don't. Go express your awkward hatred somewhere else. Unlike you, I admit when the Lotr characters are hyped by a person, so don't barge in here just to to tell someone accusing me of something I didn't do, behind my back.

.....This is a bait thread for differing opinions

....and Lucy wins. But Morgoth gives him a good challenge.

Well I can't post a picture or link from my phone but in the episodes that Sam and dean did kill other pagan gods they had to use a spefic item but lucifer did not need to use the item the other gods were weak to so then how would one explain it on how he was able to erase or override their weakness again even if he did not warp them to kill them without their weakness in the spn verse would be like some one killing superman with a fist in his chest I'm the dc multiverse

@Baldy said:

@Floopay said:

@kingkronos:

So you pretty much created another thread just to tell everybody that thinks Lucifer would win that they are wrong, and everybody that thinks Morgoth will win that they are right?

Thanks for reading,

Floopay

I wouldn't bother. KingKronos has a hugely inflated idea of what the LoTR characters are capable of.

Seconded

@Trance241 said:

Well I can't post a picture or link from my phone but in the episodes that Sam and dean did kill other pagan gods they had to use a spefic item but lucifer did not need to use the item the other gods were weak to so then how would one explain it on how he was able to erase or override their weakness again even if he did not warp them to kill them without their weakness in the spn verse would be like some one killing superman with a fist in his chest I'm the dc multiverse

Thats like saying Superman can only die from Kryptonite but if Lobo tears his head off without Kryptonite Lobo is a reality warper.

Morgoth can matter manipulate. He has made entire mountain ranges rise by thinking it. Morgoth far outclasses Lucifer in strength too. Has Lucifer ever gone h2h with someone?

That why I said even if lucifer did not use reality warping to kill them, to have the power/strength to bypass the weakness of gods and kill them when most other could heal nearly instantly from damage other then their weakness was why I say it is just as impressive in the spn verse as it would for lobo to rip off supermans head in dc

@kingkronos said:

@Baldy said:

@Floopay said:

@kingkronos:

So you pretty much created another thread just to tell everybody that thinks Lucifer would win that they are wrong, and everybody that thinks Morgoth will win that they are right?

Thanks for reading,

Floopay

I wouldn't bother. KingKronos has a hugely inflated idea of what the LoTR characters are capable of.

Why don't you mind your own business? You apparently have a hatred for Lotr characters. Now I don't know why, and I don't care. So stop accusing me of something I don't. Go express your awkward hatred somewhere else. Unlike you, I admit when the Lotr characters are hyped by a person, so don't barge in here just to to tell someone accusing me of something I didn't do, behind my back.

First off, I addressed you directly, there was no going behind your back. Second, what have I said in either thread that would conclude that I have any distaste for LotR characters? Don't get me wrong, I'm not the biggest fan, but then again I'm not the biggest Supernatural fan either. Though I have read quite a bit of JRR and watched up to season 6 of Supernatural. Realistically the most either has for feats is what they were said to have done, or were "destined" to do. There was a dramatic lack of feats on both ends of them actually doing things, so there's really no way to tell where hyperbole ends and ability begins. The most we can conclude is that Lucifer is stronger than Gabriel, and is equal to or not as strong as Michael, who has no feats.

@ShootingNova said:

Really, Morgoth lacks feats and would get owned. I don't know why you (KingKronos) are making these threads about him....

Lucifer is as featless as Morgoth. In fact, I dunno why either get put in threads.

Thanks for reading,

Floopay

Lucifer snaps his finger and everything that will be left of Morgoth will be smudge on the ground.

@Floopay: I wasn't addressing you, that was for @Baldy:

Lucifer is magically far too powerful for Morgoth. Hes like the most Powerful being in the Marvel Universe.

@Agent29 said:

Lucifer is magically far too powerful for Morgoth. Hes like the most Powerful being in the Marvel Universe.

This is Supernatural Lucifer. If this was DC Lucifer, then Morgoth would be going down hard. But it's not.

Marvel Lucifer has no feats as far as I know, and Morgoth would stomp through Image Lucifer like it's nobodies business...

Thanks for reading,

Floopay

@Floopay:

I thought both dc and marvel lucifers controll reality, warping and magic.

if thats the case morgoths going down, but again different versions have different powers and abilities so im probably confused with a different lucifer.

either way lucifer is satan and the only one who can kill or depower him is GOD

@Agent29: Dc Lucifer would solo SN verse. He literally held the Dc multiverse in his hands. And tanked multiversal attacks, destroyed dimension with a breathe, etc......

Lucifer in SN controls reality on a city/continent level or maybe even planetary level scale. Dc's Lucifer controls reality on a multiversal scale.

@kingkronos said:

@Agent29: Dc Lucifer would solo SN verse. He literally held the Dc multiverse in his hands. And tanked multiversal attacks, destroyed dimension with a breathe, etc......

Lucifer in SN controls reality on a city/continent level or maybe even planetary level scale. Dc's Lucifer controls reality on a multiversal scale.

Perfect example why i think Lucifer wins this battle. I can't even think of anyone besides God who could give him the go.

@Agent29 said:

@kingkronos said:

@Agent29: Dc Lucifer would solo SN verse. He literally held the Dc multiverse in his hands. And tanked multiversal attacks, destroyed dimension with a breathe, etc......

Lucifer in SN controls reality on a city/continent level or maybe even planetary level scale. Dc's Lucifer controls reality on a multiversal scale.

Perfect example why i think Lucifer wins this battle. I can't even think of anyone besides God who could give him the go.

What?? I tell you about Dc's marvel, and you answer me with this answer? If anything. Morgoth was stated to be only below Eru (God).

@kingkronos said:

@Agent29 said:

@kingkronos said:

@Agent29: Dc Lucifer would solo SN verse. He literally held the Dc multiverse in his hands. And tanked multiversal attacks, destroyed dimension with a breathe, etc......

Lucifer in SN controls reality on a city/continent level or maybe even planetary level scale. Dc's Lucifer controls reality on a multiversal scale.

Perfect example why i think Lucifer wins this battle. I can't even think of anyone besides God who could give him the go.

What?? I tell you about Dc's marvel, and you answer me with this answer? If anything. Morgoth was stated to be only below Eru (God).

Lucifer was God's right hand angel until he rebeled against God of course and got kicked out of heaven by Archangel Michael. That was only because GOD gave Michael the power to do that.

@Agent29 said:

@kingkronos said:

@Agent29 said:

@kingkronos said:

@Agent29: Dc Lucifer would solo SN verse. He literally held the Dc multiverse in his hands. And tanked multiversal attacks, destroyed dimension with a breathe, etc......

Lucifer in SN controls reality on a city/continent level or maybe even planetary level scale. Dc's Lucifer controls reality on a multiversal scale.

Perfect example why i think Lucifer wins this battle. I can't even think of anyone besides God who could give him the go.

What?? I tell you about Dc's marvel, and you answer me with this answer? If anything. Morgoth was stated to be only below Eru (God).

Lucifer was God's right hand angel until he rebeled against God of course and got kicked out of heaven by Archangel Michael. That was only because GOD gave Michael the power to do that.

Doesn't matter if he was his right or left hand. We go by what they did.

I almost forgot supernatural lucifer also survived a point blank head shot from the supernatural version of the saint of killers gun which could kill anything until lucifer said it couldn't kill what was it 5 things and he being one