Lucifer Morningstar/Michael Demiurgos/Gabriel Hornblower Vs Beyonder/Molecule Man/The Living Tribunal

@brucerogers: Anyways, since you are basically the most unbiased comic debator I know (probably equal to Deagonx), could I have your list on the cosmic hierarchy for both sides with some equaling? Such as:

1) Source = TOAA

2) Lucifer/Michael = Pre-retcon Beyonder

etc

That probably isn't your list but just an example for the format I would like, thanks!

@anaverageguy123: Thanks! Yeah, I'd put TOAA and Presence as the supreme beings of their respective verses and so they should be peers based on that.

I put PR Beyonder above Lucifer or Michael (individually) but that's me. I mean honestly, debating infinite multiversal level abstracts is pretty wonky and unreliable. It's not like debating Batman vs Captain America. Or even Superman vs Thor. They have upper limits to their might while these guys are virtually limitless, if you catch my drift.

@brucerogers: I see, that's an interesting take. Do you put the Brother's individually above LT/Pre-retcon MM or nah?

@anaverageguy123: Above LT, I can see a case being made. MM, I dunno.

My infinity is bigger than yours.

The disrespect The Living Tribunal gets shows that there is a hatred of Marvel among comic book readers. What other reason could there be? Outside of The One Above All, he is the most powerful non temporary character in all of Marvel. The #1. You don't get to be the most powerful character in entire verse and not be a powerhouse.

For all of you people who say Michael and Lucifer are more powerful, show me one feat or statement that Michael or Lucifer has done that is larger than destroying the entire DC multiverse. Because when it said that Michael could destroy "creation", there is no proof that it meant anything other than the regular DC Multiverse. Meanwhile we have feats of The Living Tribunal's, that when you scale them (to how big said feat would be in a barrage of attacks using 100% of the Tribunal's power) it scales to destroying the Marvel Multiverse, limbo, dimensions, heaven and hell. The only thing that a full power Tribunal couldn't destroy is The Beyond Verse and that is because it is beyond anything in basic marvel, which explains why he lost to the Beyonders, not because he is this Living Jobber you DC fanboys like to call him.

I've never heard of a character that powerful met with this much scrutiny.

@mejames255: It pains me but the Living Tribunal gets disrespected by the writers first of all because they transformed him into the Living Fodderbunal. People then started taking him unseriously.

Also I believe that it is fair to claim that the Living Tribunal was massively weakened when he fought the Beyonders, not to mention they merely killed the M-Body. Under Hickman the Living Tribunal was directly established to be the embodiment of the Marvel multiverse but Hickman's multiverse merely consisted of alternate realities (no higher dimensions etc as far as I'm aware) and due to incursions, the number of universes in the multiverse was merely a few hundred thousand instead of an infinite number, hence the Living Tribunal was not at full power.

People call him the living jobber because that's what the writers have turned him into, not because everyone that supports team 1 is a dc fanboy.

thats was the living tribunal in a later issue its stated by Infinity and Eternity when Adam Warlock took his place about TLT inferior power to threats like the Beyonders. Protege isn't a thing and HOTU was non canon so only the Beyonders for now and Regulator Thanos didn't exist back then and the story is also non canon.

@authentical: Thank you using my post ❤

@alonis3612: Lucifer isn't above concept of space-time??

He shaped the entire concept of the entire reality LMFAO including platonic concept... Archetypal concepts are templates for every concept of reality...

the original pattern or model from which all things of the same kind are copied or on which they are based; a model or first form; prototype.

Threads like this makes me miss @rolldestroyer

There is way worse on the vine

@theanimal666 said:

I know, but @rolldestroyer sure did have great knowledge on cosmic beings.

It's really embarrassing how pathetic the writers have made Living Tribunal to be.

@jwwprod: IKR. He gets disrespected whenever they want to hype up their new big bad villain.

@chasekilleen:

Lucifer isn't above concept of space-time??

He shaped the entire concept of the entire reality LMFAO including platonic concept... Archetypal concepts are templates for every concept of reality...

He shaped the entire concept of reality? LMFAO since when creating and shaping a dimensional construct makes a character above the concept of space-time? Lucifer never created platonic concepts.

I'm actually surprised they didn't have Chaos King beat him as well at this point.

@alonis3612:

Literally says that Lucifer made his creation that rivals Presence.

He created life and death:

The Platonic concept of Dream, where he is the embodiment of the concept of Dream says that Lucifer is far stronger than himself.

Dream literally said that he was afraid of Lucifer:

https://imgur.com/hzDeeSR

Lucifer is greater than the embodiment concept of Death itself and also she cannot claim him:

https://imgur.com/DXEcW2X

https://imgur.com/5EImJKb

Lucifer being unaffected by death and even infinite death:

https://imgur.com/SfbxUmv

https://imgur.com/1TNAV3s

https://imgur.com/ENFErBl

Literally says here that time and space are the extensions of the mind, the Will.

https://imgur.com/fxITXjd

and Lucifer is stated to be the Will of God.

@bdelloidgrain2@y3kthunder@anaverageguy123:

@chasekilleen: None of that proves platonic concepts and the Endless are not platonic either. Also, being platonic doesn't always make you "powerful".

Team 1.

Literally says that The Endless are the embodiment of their natural forces.

The Endless spend most of their time fulfilling their functions as embodiment of natural forces. For example, Death leads the souls of the dead away from the realm of the living, while Dream oversees the realm of dreams and imagination ("The Dreaming") and regulates dreams and inspiration.

Death of the Endless came into existence shortly after the first lifeforms appeared in the universe. She will function as the embodiment of death until the very last living thing died.

Dream of the Endless is the lord of all that is not real: dreams and stories.

Destiny is the personification of destiny and the oldest of the Endless. He carried the Book of Souls chained to his right wrist, which contained all past, present, and future events.

That's what platonic concepts are, they are the embodiment/personification concept where the latter of all concepts all follow The Endless as their template.

Platonic concepts are suppose to be the quintessence of everything in their lineage. For example, the platonic concept of a bird is not just a bird, but the very universal concept shared between all birds: the very essence of “bird-ness”. Without that “bird-ness” said birds wouldn’t be birds as it’s what makes birds well birds. Due to being these eternal essence of things, they are sort of the template for all birds while containing the qualities of each and every bird. Anything loosely a bird is bounded by its platonic concept.

@nicolascagegod: @alonis3612: You can call him a jobber, fine. But for someone to use him being a jobber as an excuse to downplay him (like what they do on this forum) is wrong. Despite his jobbing, he has feats that imply that he is beyond multiversal.

And about his jobbing, he lost to people who could bust a multiverse by simply blinking (characters who are on the level of The Beyonder). That's why he jobs, because the people he has gone up against are some of the strongest characters in all of fiction.

@mejames255: But he is a jobber. And Multiverse busting isn't really impressive in Fiction.

Yes he has. He and Michael created all of DC, including the Endless.

This

ur right, no one should downplay the Living Tribunal, but logically his the lowest one here.

Living Tribunal is all scaling

Living Tribunal > Lucifer. Lucifer got nothing on Tribunal. But Tribunal got scaling behind him that is too much for Lucy.

@alonis3612 said:

Living Tribunal > Lucifer. Lucifer got nothing on Tribunal. But Tribunal got scaling behind him that is too much for Lucy.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yFxGJ65_QnY

Not the best but gives u an idea. Lucifer is more powerful no argument here most people agree with that anyways.

Either one of the brothers soloes

any of the team 1 solos

Ik i made this thread, but T1

É incrível o que este fórum está acontecendo sem os melhores debatedores, o Living Tribunal era anteriormente aceito quase oficialmente como mais poderoso (ou igual) para os irmãos e agora eles o tratam como forragem ...

Pre-beyonder provavelmente irmãos de um tiro

você percebe que nunca realmente leu nada sobre o Beyonder desde o momento em que dizem que ele foi derrotado pela coisa ou seus derivados ... por favor ....

lucifer michael is all universal

fan opinions dont matter, debunked ages ago

beyonder oneshots

Molecule man- nigh omnipotent

Beyonder- Omnipotent and Omniscient

Tribunal- Omnipresent 16th Dimensional Is head over all abstracts

@cupofreality1:

Team 2 does win but no one is soloing.

Lucifer blinks

Anyone from team 2 solos assuming that Beyonder and Molecule Man are meant to be Pre-Retcon for this fight

Beyonder and MM solo.