Lucifer Morningstar Vs Reinhard Heydrich

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EzraArcher

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Lucifer Morningstar

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Reinhard Heydrich

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Rules

  • Composite versions
  • No holding back
  • Win by Death/KO

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drudged

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Reinhard might win this handily. Composite Reinhard has too much broken feats (such as his Spear of Destiny, transcending "The Throne", dimensionless and cannot be killed even if he is blinked out of existence as he can regenerate from nothingness, something Lucy cannot do wherein he cannot create anything from nothing and needs Michael to do that), and basically comparable to Nyarlathotep in power level and Nyarlathotep beats Lucifer. (Apologies for the abc logic at that point)

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EzraArcher

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@drudged said:

Reinhard might win this handily. Composite Reinhard has too much broken feats (such as his Spear of Destiny, transcending "The Throne", dimensionless and cannot be killed even if he is blinked out of existence as he can regenerate from nothingness, something Lucy cannot do wherein he cannot create anything from nothing and needs Michael to do that), and basically comparable to Nyarlathotep in power level and Nyarlathotep beats Lucifer. (Apologies for the abc logic at that point)

Yeah I was discussing this with a friend of mine and he suggested I add Michael as well. If more people think so Ill add him. I know Composite Lucifer has some pretty insane feats, like tanking Michael's creation explosion which, correct me if I'm wrong nobody in Dies Irae has shown to do

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rhistr

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#4  Edited By rhistr

What are Reinhard's best attacking feats? If he can come back from complete nonexistence, it sounds like Lucifer's only shot is to stalemate, if he even can . . . regen from nothing is a pretty insane hack after all lol

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savythegawd

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Reinhard wins this one as soon as he throws his spear

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EzraArcher

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@savythegawd:

Can't Lucy tank it? His spear is very NLF if im wrong

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savythegawd

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#9  Edited By savythegawd

@ezraarcher: Well as soon as he throws it it ignores the concept of distance so its hitting and mixed with the ability to erase somethings entire existence even its history its over as soon as he throws the spear and its not a NLF you just have to be omnipresent as he is nigh omnipresent himself

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drudged

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#10  Edited By drudged

@ezraarcher: The thing is, the spear can kill anyone, even those without the concept of death, and anything that gets struck by his spear becomes part of Reinhard's legion which will allow him to possess their memories and powers. Some of those who have fallen victim to that said spear are already dimensionless beings, with powers who could be comparable to Lucy himself.

Honestly, I'm not sure how Michael could help. If you want to beat Reinhard, you'll pretty much have to be Elder God Demonbane level (basically High outer God level), and the equivalent of that (although not exactly) is Hajun himself, and Hajun at an extremely weakened state would still stomp someone like Lucifer and Michael. Of course, if we were to say Michael and Lucifer would face against Reinhard, I don't really see how their combat feats could overpower Reinhard's broken hax and feats.

(The more I look at it, this probably looks like a stomp, to be quite honest)

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Galactic_1000

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Is Reinhard nerfed in Dies irae anime?

i

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CaoCao

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#12  Edited By CaoCao

Gosh, this match is a though one. Going at first with Reinhard.

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ovy7

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#13  Edited By ovy7

Is Reinhard nerfed in Dies irae anime?

i

The route the anime adapts isn't where Reinhard is at his most powerful, but he's still multiversal at the end of that route. The anime just didn't get to that point yet (Reinhard wasn't even permanently summoned on Earth yet).

About this fight, Reinhard should take it. He's easily multiversal, insane hax (the Spear is a one-shot conceptual weapon), has a legion of billions of soul where each is as strong as him (because of his Law), etc.

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Sungsam

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#14  Edited By Sungsam

Barely little input from the Lucifer side, this thread is monopolized. I feel compelled to make an argument so that this thread will actually become a discussion.

I'm gonna have to give it to Lucifer.

The source of Hadou Gods power "Taikyoku" is LEAGUES unimpressive compared to Michael and Lucifer's source or origin of power who is the Presence/Primal Monitor/Great Evil Beast/The Source, a Scholastic Omnipotent being with multiple Nigh Scholastic Omnipotent avatars that created dimensions, qualities and concepts on a larger scale than anything in Shinzaverse. Who used Michael and Lucifer as his tools for Creation.

And Given that DC's Cosmology is so much more impressive, larger, and cosmologically complex and higher dimensionally powerful and truly infinite compared to Dies Irae, and Michael and Lucifer's hand in its shaping, creation and transformation in that cosmology with Metaverses and Infinite Higher Spatial Dimensional Cosmologies, then the following applies:

You say Reinhard is Multiversal? Well, Lucifer through composite DC/Vertigo scaling, has feats WAY above Multiversal, DC's Universe has Metaverses (collections of infinite multiverses, wherein each universe constantly per moment multiplies into infinite universes then infinite multiverses to no end) and , and Lucifer is thereby Metaversal and confirms DC's proper usage of an exaggerated Infinite Higher Spatial Dimensional Cosmology on top of innumerable layers of existence which adds more Metaverses into the mix.

That is, in fact, a feat that no Hadou God comes even close to, unless you use outerverse unquantifiable "dimensionless outerverse" claims that allows you to make massive leaps in logic and skip multiversity feats type of non sense of course. Much of the arguments from Reinhard side is mostly NLF upon NLF upon NLF upon NLF. Just NLFs over and over and abusing the "Beyond Concept" arguments again. And the whole "dimensionless >>> dimensioned" non sense again.

Nextly, Lucifer is way feared by the Endless, that includes Death of the Endless, Dream of the Endless who contains all of Creation inside his Book, and also includes Dream of the Endless who has countless aspects of himself, including an Eldritch Aspect of Dream, who are all Infinite Layered Multiversal or Higher Spatial Dimensional in power given their role and aspects. Following includes Father Time and Mother Night and etc. and etc. who existed before Creation, and they all dwarf all Hadou Gods by comparison of their duties as abstracts over DC's massive cosmology.

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deactivated-5b4535a30d95d

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@sungsam: this thread is point-less honestly, once there is a composition there is no fun in knowing how canonically character A would combat character B, as for the thread, composed lucifer stomps reinhard, he went out to the outside void and virtually became omnipotent where he met other omnipotent forces throughout the metaverse/omniverse,

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Galan_Destroyer

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Reinhard wins this one as soon as he throws his spear

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Sungsam

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#17  Edited By Sungsam

@galan_destroyer said:
@savythegawd said:

Reinhard wins this one as soon as he throws his spear

Lucifer's power and being surpasses the scale of any Hadou God combined. The spear is not hurting Lucifer unless it has feats of ever hurt something as powerful a Metaversal++++ entity that Lucifer is.

You can send ten billion or even infinite Reinhards at Lucifer, he's just going to warp them away and an NLF spear is not going to warp him out. Hadou Gods are at best Multiversal+ Potent Reality Warpers, a power level that all of the Endless, Mother Night, Father Time, are leagues above and all fear Lucifer who is qualifies more for being "Outerversal" and "Transcending Infinite Dimensions" than any Hadou God is.

And recovering from being erased out of existence DEPENDS on how powerful the being that erased you was.

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B3rnkastel

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Lucifer is strong as shit yeah,but Tristan's acasual spear is pretty bullshit,and Lucy has no answer for it. Mercurius probably wins this one too if he were swapped with Reinhardt.

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Sungsam

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#20  Edited By Sungsam

@b3rnkastel said:

Lucifer is strong as shit yeah,but Tristan's acasual spear is pretty bullshit,and Lucy has no answer for it. Mercurius probably wins this one too if he were swapped with Reinhardt.

Lucifer has no answer to acasual powers? Why not? Lucifer is pretty familiar with acausality and causality manipulation in effect, he did shape, manipulate and constructively programmed the forces that construct time, space, dimensions, abstracts and causality on a ridiculously mass scales of forces far beyond anything the Throne or Taikyoku has in cosmic patanature feats. He is far beyond the powers and feared by Infinite Dimensional Metaversal Transcending and Abstract Embodying Nigh-Omnilock beings who are all metaphysical, acasual beings of which he arguably and theoretically is involved with shaping them. Lucifer sees Infinity, Time and Space as meaningless. He is very acasual, He did exist outside a void multiple times, where time, space and causality and form cannot exist and he can survive without causality forces and can run independent of concepts and constructs external to him, he is very much a Nigh-Omnilock in embodiment and several characters far below him can also be independent of time and space and causality. Thinking the spear can hurt Lucifer is a little stretchy because everything Reinhard's spear has erased and harmed are far below the strongest tier of power that is fodder to Lucifer who are also Acausal. In fact, there are many dimensioned characters who are considered multiversal causality manipulators, Acausality is nothing, it's just a sub-power of reality manipulation wherein its worth is measured by its scale, amplification and effect output between two reality warpers.

Reinhard's spear is powerful given the NLFs applied to it.To prove that this spear can affect or erase Lucifer you need to show up with feats that depict the spear affecting a High Level Nigh Omnipotent Warper like Lucifer who can shape and distort a cosmology that so ridiculously dwarfs the entire feat output of Shinzaverse (of which none exists), when put side by side, DC looks like Suggsverse by comparison of feat output. Lucifer is Outerversal inside an Infinite Dimensional Metaversal+ Complex setting while Reinhard is Outerversal given a seemingly basic Multiversal setting, and Lucifer's power was granted or sourced from by DC's Supreme Being (Presence/PM) who is partly a superior version of Taikyoku (Primal Monitor), none of the Hadou Gods are even close to this scale and potency of power.

What's going to happen in the fight, is that Reinhard throws the spear and Lucifer no sells the Spear of NLFs and literally will warps away the NLF Taikyoku as null and the Hadou Gods are massively incapacitated. Multi-Metaversal+Infinite Angel >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Multiversal+ God as well as the Source of their Power, it is simple as that. Reinhard has no answer against Lucifer whose Feat Output is massively larger than Shinzaverse's entire Feat Output.

In addition, Lucifer just uses his infinite transcending will power and mind blink Reinhard out of existence before Reinhard even gets the chance to throw his spear just like what Lucifer did to the Silk Man and just erased him and didn't care beyond it.. BTW, Reinhard is not going to be able to recover his existence from an existence killer warping attack from Lucifer's Will that is a literal copy of Presence's High Level Nigh Omnipotent Manipulation, and is scaled equal to Michael's power that is described as an Ocean with no Shore (infinite) and as a spark that expands forever beyond it, including that Lucifer sees Infinity as meaningless. The Amp/Scale of Lucifer's power is by feats far beyond anything any Hadou God has encountered. To argue against this, would be a massive allusion that could lead to a concept NLF claim.

Look let me get this straight, Hadou Gods are extremely powerful, but they are not even close to the Endless by feats who embody the DC Omniverse and are also described as being acasual beings at Eldritch levels (Dream has an Eldritch aspect of his being who is outside of Time, Space, Dimensions and that includes Causality) who all fear Michael and Lucifer as being far more powerful than them.

I have a very hard time believing so, that the Hadou Gods are stomping Lucifer. Look, thinking Lucifer being beaten is one thing, but Hadou Gods are not stomping anything on mass of a scale that Lucifer is.

The only thing killing Lucifer head on in DC besides the Presence is the Writer, Great Evil Beast, Primal Monitor (Grant Morrison already stated that PM and Presence/God are the same) and with some luck, Michael Demiurgos. You literally need Beyonder, Meng Hao (ISSTH), Extended Author Wanked Lovecraft, Umineko level characters to kill Lucifer in a head on warping bloodlusted battle without bringing up Omnipotents to match or destroy him, of which, through Cosmology Power Output Tiering, none exist in Dies Irae.

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savythegawd

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@sungsam: the hadou gods are all above the throne which is a hyperdimensional object. Even a being with 1 taikyuko is above it and reinhard destroyed it in one of his fights. Taikyoku is responsible for all of existence including hyperdimensional space. Rein has 90 taikyoku. A being with 1 is baseline outerversal and if you have 10 more than someone else it is an infinite difference in power. Nothing supports lucifer being higher than baseline outerversal. Also reinhard's lance is more than enough to one shot lucifer as it ignores the concept of distance, erases someone's history on an outerversal scale, and will always land. These are from Reinhard having the abilities of wolgang, göetz, and Eleonore. It should also be mentioned that both have irrelevant speed as thry are beyond the concept of dimensions but with Wolfgang's abilities he is always faster than his opponent unless they are omnipresent to the highest extent which lucifer can't be as he would only have 1 taikyuko. For example an outerversal being with higher than 1 taikyuko would be someone like nyalarthotep who is so far beyond so many concepts that it is beyond the concept of change itself. And is infinitely above other outerversal beings.

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Sungsam

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#22  Edited By Sungsam

@savythegawd said:

@sungsam: the hadou gods are all above the throne which is a hyperdimensional object. Even a being with 1 taikyuko is above it and reinhard destroyed it in one of his fights. Taikyoku is responsible for all of existence including hyperdimensional space. Rein has 90 taikyoku. A being with 1 is baseline outerversal and if you have 10 more than someone else it is an infinite difference in power. Nothing supports lucifer being higher than baseline outerversal. Also reinhard's lance is more than enough to one shot lucifer as it ignores the concept of distance, erases someone's history on an outerversal scale, and will always land. These are from Reinhard having the abilities of wolgang, göetz, and Eleonore. It should also be mentioned that both have irrelevant speed as thry are beyond the concept of dimensions but with Wolfgang's abilities he is always faster than his opponent unless they are omnipresent to the highest extent which lucifer can't be as he would only have 1 taikyuko.

the hadou gods are all above the throne which is a hyperdimensional object. Even a being with 1 taikyuko is above it and reinhard destroyed it in one of his fights.

How Outerversal characters in DC and Dies Irae work are very different. The standards of power of certain infinities are different.

Hadou Gods being above the throne? A Hyperdimensional construct? Hyperdimensional construct can mean any level of dimension above 3D-4D (that is the definition, look it up) And in DC, being above a hyper-dimensional object is a low key, low brow feat. Hyperdimensional only means any dimension that is higher than we can naturally observe in our Universe. So with that alone, all that tells me is that Hadou Gods are Hyperversal through dimension tiering non sense. But Dies Irae has no Metaversal structures so this isn't even likely. They're just basic Multiversal Nigh-Omnilocks at best, when translated to DC, that's low tier.

You know being above a Higher Dimensional construct is nigh-useless as a feat considering you don't even know how big its dimensional space is compared to an Infinite Dimensional Multiverse, let alone 1 Metaverse from DC, or even the entirety of the Sphere of the Gods let alone the Monitors, that Lucifer is responsible for creating its structures far beyond the feats of both the Taikyoku and the Throne and is above all those structures as meaningless to him.

Even WF Mxy who is a 5D Imp destroyed infinite higher spatial dimensions in it with little effort and can just recreate them again like it was nothing. And he's not even Outerversal. That is a meta destructive feat far beyond any Hadou Gods feat and how many Dimensions their Taikyoku has shown feats to affect. Can you imagine Outerversal characters from DC compared to Hadou Gods?

Pertain me to sources that indicate infinite higher spatial or metaversal cosmology of feats among any of the Hadou Gods until further notice. Which is pointless, because there are only 24 Dimensions there, and no Hadou Gods have any Megaversal feats to even dream of contending with DC's average joe shmoe abstracts.

Nothing supports lucifer being higher than baseline outerversal.

Lucifer transcends Dream (who has an Outerversal Eldritch aspect), Death, Destiny, Mother Night, Prayala (an aspect of her destroyed infinite higher spatial dimensions), Metaverses, Monitors, Prayala, Mandrakk, Thought Robot Superman and so many other characters that are at the power of, or above Infinite Dimensional Multiverses and Metaverses and have Omnilock feats (some of them). I'm pretty sure Lucifer has got this thing down. Not only that, all those guys have far superior feats to any Hadou God.

Lucifer sees the concept of Infinity, Time and Space as meaningless, so not only is he above Baseline DC Outerversal, he sees all values of above time and space that includes infinite degrees as meaningless.

Send infinite Hadou Gods against the likes of the Endless, they're going to be foddered really really badly. They're not going to be affected by a Taikyoku force that has weaker cosmic creation feats compared to the Endless.

As for Hadou Gods.

Hadou Gods are only Outerversal in a finite 24 Dimensional setting that randomly jumps anywhere between being Multiversal to Universal. So Lucifer is Outerversal on a MUCH grander scale while Hadou Gods are only conveniently Outerversal in an inferior scale.

When Hadou Gods are put in DC/Vertigo, they look like Low Hyperversal characters at best by feats. By comparison. Outerversal is relative. If you put any of the Hadou Gods in DC, they'll be bound by the Primal Monitor's more massive, complex rules of metaphysics far beyond the scope of the Taikyoku's feats since Hadou Gods have never experienced transcending or destroying Infinite Levelled Metaversal structures like Lucifer can.

Hadou Gods only transcend dimensions in a cosmology that is FAR inferior and much easier to transcend when compared to DC's unimaginable metaphysial cosmic forces. Outerversal ultimately just dumbs down to being an Omnilock in the end and its not even truly a destructive feat.

Heck, some VSBW people even questioned if Hadou Gods should even BE Outerversal because their cosmology that they are above is INFINITELY SMALL compared to other verses with high level powers, but the mod's excuse is that they skip dimensional tiering for TOAA (even though Marvel has infinite dimensional megaverses as well) and rate him as 1A.

So be careful with the word "Outerversal" you and I, have severely different applications to the meaning of that word. In my book, you can only be a TRUE Outerversal if your cosmology has infinite dimensional metaverses+ and you transcend it, which DC is jam-packed with loads of characters like that.

NONE of the Hadou Gods have even anything close to Metaversal feats. Dies Irae has no cosmology like DC that Hadou Gods can scale from to even match even 1 Multiverse in a Metaverse..... DIes Irae/KKK has around what? 24 higher spatial dimensions with a basic multiverse. There is no "True" Outerversal among Hadou Gods compared to DC Abstracts, to imply that they would just transcend all dimensional forces far superior to their feat output and are different to their own dimensions in other fictions where reality and metaphysical forces are seen differently and are much bigger on mass scales is a massive NLF and highly presumptive.

The Outerversal FEAT SKIPPING is the only thing keeping the Hadou Gods float around in discussions and battles that are WAY beyond their weight class. Hadou Gods SEEM Outerversal, but only in their setting. You have to consider how big, powerful and etc. are the cosmic metaphysical dimensional forces they're above are, that they created and compare it to what Lucifer is above.

Lucifer is much more powerful than several Outerversal/Hyperversal characters in a setting with Infinite H.S. Dimensional Space with Metaverses that constantly multiply and create multiverses every constant forever. That's a feat that no Hadou God can even dream of. You might argue that Hadou Gods are walking Universes or whatever, send

A being with 1 is baseline outerversal and if you have 10 more than someone else it is an infinite difference in power.

Rein has 90 taikyoku. A being with 1 is baseline outerversal and if you have 10 more than someone else it is an infinite difference in power.

Taikyoku is responsible for all of existence including hyperdimensional space.

lucifer can't be as he would only have 1 taikyuko.

Don't try to insult and skewer Lucifer under inferior concepts like "Taikyoko" from a relatively weak compared verse like where Hadou Gods come from. Get all the Transfinite Taikyoku you can, send billions of Reinhards, Lucifer will just thought wipe them out like nothing.

No, Lucifer has no Taikyoku value. He has something even more powerful than any level of Infinite Taikyoku Power.

Taikyoku's biggest feat in creation is creating a 24 Dimensional hyperspace which isn't even a Megaverse in any shape or form considering that Dies Irae's cosmology jumps from just Multiversal to Universal at best. Thinking it can just replicate any scale that we've seen in DC demands feats, evidence and no NLF presumptions or allusions.

Lucifer is more powerful than anything the Taikyoku as a concept has done.

Primal Monitor/Presence/GEB is the origin for all INFINITE H.S. Dimensional and Metaversal cosmic feats in DC as well and is the origin for SEVERAL Infinite Dimension Transcending characters (Prayala, Mother Night, Dream, Death, Morpheus, etc. etc.), in fact is basically a superior version of Taikyoku in every way that is a sentient all encompassing force and Lucifer's Will is equal to the aspect of that Near Omnipotent power in Will Type Reality Manipulation and is above the concept of infinity itself altogether.

Meanwhile Taikyoku Values are defined by infinities of power while Lucifer is above that.

Infinity is just a number as good as zero when the quality of that infinity is not take into account. How infinite levels of power between fictions are defined quite differently. In Dies Irae, the infinite power of a Hadou God is at best Hyperversal when compared to DC. And In DC, the feats of their infinite power is far beyond that.

Infinite Power in DC is far superior to what Transfinite Power is in Dies Irae when it comes to feats and scale.

What a Hadou God has no feats of doing with their so called "Infinite Outerversal" power such as destroying above Megaversal structures, a 5D Imp can do.

For example an outerversal being with higher than 1 taikyuko would be someone like nyalarthotep who is so far beyond so many concepts that it is beyond the concept of change itself. And is infinitely above other outerversal beings.

Being TRULY beyond concepts is something only Omnipotents are capable of being. Reinhard is stated to be beyond the concept of death, but he got killed by Hajun. It is all refuted. They're all just flowery metaphors. To think being above concepts is just an autowin would be a massive NLF allusion.

Consider that Lucifer is also above many abstract concept hyperversal/outerversal Gods as well whose feats outclass anything seen from Dies Irae.

And Nyarlathotep's power depends on the source you use. In the classical Lovecraft, Nyarlathotep is not even that impressive and his power is mostly hyped from dimensional tiering non sense.

Hell, by the time Lovecraft died, Hilbert Dimensions were barely even a thing in fiction. It was Beyonder who actually utilized, pioneered and conceptualized infintie dimensional feats first among others in fiction.

Also reinhard's lance is more than enough to one shot lucifer as it ignores the concept of distance, erases someone's history on an outerversal scale, and will always land. These are from Reinhard having the abilities of wolgang, göetz, and Eleonore.

You know, you keep mentioning the spear, unaware that Lucifer is capable of erasing and affecting things from massive distances with his thoughts, and has shown to affect beings from other Universes while being in a different Universe simultaneously.

Lucifer has the same as Reinhard, but better, a more powerful scale, and more unsuspecting. Reinhard won't even know how he was erased as Lucifer doesn't need to throw any "meta spear" to erase you, he just thinks you out.

Lucifer will mind-wipe Reinhard out of existence to the point that Reinhard can't even return before he even manages do to try and throw his spear and can just do it effortlessly given the Presence's Manipulation FAR surpasses anything the Taikyoku has done and created.

Of which, the Spear is a hax that Lucifer is more than capable of no-selling consider the Spear has no feats of killing ANYTHING as powerful as Lucifer and Lucifer is much more powerful than several nothingness abstracts with infinite dimensional feats and scales such as Prayala and Mother Night. You are trenching into massive NLF territory here.

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B3rnkastel

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#23  Edited By B3rnkastel

@sungsam: I'll be honest with you man,a lot of this is VSBW word-soup garbage. While meta-versal is a term I'm willing to debate around, "outer-versal" absolutely doesn't fit,and is essentially garbage. You can't even wank Demonbane to such idiotic levels.

As for your actual points,I don't see why you had to dub the spear as as NLF(despite there being no in-universe limitations to it,or hell, ANY limitations at all listed to it,making your limiting of it out of place),then proceed to overhype Lucifer and give an unrealistic battle run-down.

I've read through what I could involving Luci through the years. From respect threads(here's one btw:https://www.reddit.com/r/respectthreads/comments/35ulkx/respect_lucifer_morningstar_dcvertigo/),to the comics he's appeared(notably Sandman,which I've gone through several times),and numerous debates about him across various websites. There is absolutely nothing to my knowledge that even suggestz he's taking an acasual,concept-destroying,existence erasing weapon. He's never been exposed to any of this,and if you believe he can,then the burden of proof is on you,my friend. Too much of your argument relies on how high he ranks in DC,his infinity transcending(Rein does it too:http://imgur.com/ShMqKYt),and implied power(which doesn't even stand as an argument).

I'm also not sure where you're getting these statements and figures as to DC's size and what it's comprised of. It's called New *52* for a reason.

Show me literally anything that could support Lucifer taking this,ane I'll concede that point. Your only legitimate point is that Lucifer could just wipe Reind away like he did here:http://i.imgur.com/zAbp77M.jpg,but I'm not even sure if that'd put him down. Plus,Reinds spear has already tagged him,because it's uh, *acasual*.

What does Lucifer being able to affect people from other universes away even matter here? He's never *actually done* anything insane with it,and his best use of it was giving someone a heart attack: http://i.imgur.com/8wYdOua.jpg .

And for the love of God,don't keep up the "muh Lucifers Will" wank.

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Sungsam

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#24  Edited By Sungsam

@b3rnkastel said:

@sungsam: I'll be honest with you man,a lot of this is VSBW word-soup garbage. While meta-versal is a term I'm willing to debate around, "outer-versal" absolutely doesn't fit,and is essentially garbage. You can't even wank Demonbane to such idiotic levels.

Okay, hold it, you and I actually freaking agree.

Demonbane IS wanked to such idiotic levels, sometimes even Suggsverse Omnipotent 1 Shotting non sense.

Let's take a time to bond over this simple consensus since we're going to be head-butting each other for the rest of this reply.

As for your actual points,I don't see why you had to dub the spear as as NLF(despite there being no in-universe limitations to it,or hell, ANY limitations at all listed to it,making your limiting of it out of place),then proceed to overhype Lucifer and give an unrealistic battle run-down.

That's why I said allusion to NLF. Not exactly NLF, but the Metahaxes from Dies Irae get stretched out to having potencies and amplifications as being implied to affecting things like Beyonder and Meng Hao level character that its's ridiculous when all logical measures, Hajun would get absolutely crushed by something like Beyonder because no Hadou God has the feats to affect anything at this level.

Things like "beyond the concept" of this that, this that, are all stretchy at best. A lot of the times, these are merely metaphors, it doesn't mean totally unbound by said concept totally.

Unrealism is a word that you might want to keep away from when we're arguing about characters at this level.

then proceed to overhype Lucifer

I AM OVERHYPING LUCIFER. The difference between you and me is that I am aware I am highballing Lucifer to certain degree, but I don't really care if Lucifer loses to Reinhard, I use Lucifer as a measuring stick against Reinhard and see why and how you think Hadou Gods are as powerful as you say they are because I'm interested in Hadou Gods for research since I'm a writer on Deviantart.

I don't want to be convinced by you about what you think Hadou Gods. I don't even care about convincing you to agree with me! I merely want to force you to express why you think they're that powerful, I want to know how your standards and opinions work.

and give an unrealistic battle run-down.

Well, nothing is realistic arguing about characters at this level.

We've kept on talking about Reinhard's spear, Reinhard's spear, giving total neglect to what the power of the Morningstar can do. Infinite Will Power to manipulate entire Creations outside of Creations.

Why does your side think that Lucifer is just going to let Reinhard throw his spear before Lucifer blinks him out of existence? I really do not understand you.

We've been talking about the powers of Rein and Lucy so much, that we are neglecting how the fight is going to become. I'm the one pursuing such a question an answer, you only speak of the spear over and over again.

There is absolutely nothing to my knowledge that even suggestz he's taking an acasual,concept-destroying,existence erasing weapon. He's never been exposed to any of this,and if you believe he can,then the burden of proof is on you,my friend. Too much of your argument relies on how high he ranks in DC,his infinity transcending(Rein does it too:http://imgur.com/ShMqKYt),and implied power(which doesn't even stand as an argument).

There is nothing to my knowledge to suggest that Reinhard can recover from a Will Attack from Lucifer's Morningstar power either, which is literally empowered by Presence's Near Omnpotent power, which by the way, has bigger feats than the Taikyoku's creation and transcension.

Acausal, Concept, Existence distorting forces are just sub-powers of Reality Warping within the world of Metaphysics and you use extra words attached to it to make Reinhard look more intimidating and impressive than he really is.

These are all feats replica-table by low level reality warpers and there are different scales and potencies that vary depending on the character you think of. Even WF Mxy can do it.

Also, Infinity when given no description, is nothing more than a number. What is the quality of an infinite power? Such a definition varies depending on verse. In Marvel, just being Universe tier is considered "Transinfinite" power but we both know that Infinite power should surpass Universe tier.

See? Infinity must mean context as to the mass of damage a character can inflict on metaphysical forces beyond comprehension such as Metaverses.

All Hadou Gods by versal tiering are Multiversal+ and if by highballing are Megaversal potent reality warpers, by dimension tiering output, they can affect 24 dimensions, but nothing beyond that.

No matter how you see it, Lucifer has an edge.

I'm also not sure where you're getting these statements and figures as to DC's size and what it's comprised of. It's called New *52* for a reason.

DC's size changes and retcons, to the point the entire thing is a damn mess and that nearly nothing is really canon if we used conventional standards of canonicity. In reality, all of the views on DC is equally as valid, it only depends on how much wanking and lowballing suits your stomach.

Example, there are four different characters in DC/Vertigo that are basically the same fucking thing. (Primal Monitor, Pralaya, GEB, Mother Night) all Outer Void characters and no author has ever elaborated the relationship between these characters, what they're the same? They're this or what? Approaching DC relies heavily on implications and theories.

That's just an example. If not, no abstract character from DC should ever be used in other VS Debates, but we do it anyway! So that's what's what.

Most people typically use DC's composite historical cosmology (which has been explained to be re-canonized before I read somewhere) when arguing with it. Which is what I'm doing.

Anyway.

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Turns out, the 52 Universes are merely the LOCAL DC Multiverse group and are the 52 KNOWN Worlds, there are several other and probably infinite number of DC Multiverses below the bleed and the monitors, sphere of the gods, etc. etc.

There are also several, probably infinite Multiverses within DC's Cosmology now again, using terminologies from the latest map.

Final Crisis Secret Files reveals that the Bleed Barrier consists of Multiverses:

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And DC DOES have infinite layered higher spatial dimensional levels of existence which is within Dream's Book implying Multi-Megaversal constructs. You know, within Yahweh's Creation that Lucifer took part in shaping, and something the Shinzaverse's cosmology nor its Gods or output feats have anything close to that are beyond imagination.

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Some of these, the Elseworlds non-canon stories (which has WF Mxy erasing INFINITE universes and timelines) are implied to even come from a Multiverse unseen from the Multiverse DC Map due to Kingdom Come appearing in a Canon issue.

Monitors are story generators and can write any story they wish and follow a metafictional aspect, they are below Destiny of the Endless who fears Lucifer. There is nothing to suggest that Reinhard is anywhere near that level but just infinity infinity.

Lucifer has infinities that we know how powerful they are. Reinhard's infinities are unknown since that power is only testable at a basic level multiverse.

Here's the scan about how big DC's Metaverses are.

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This scan describes universes and timelines, spawning INFINITE Universes from every constant.

A Metaverse is composed of Infinite Multiverses with Infinite Universes that create Infinite new Universes for each with Shadow Realities already, of infinityXinfinity.

A 6D Megaverse will literally transform into a 7D Megaverse, and so on and so forth, including its parent structures and descendant structures, basically a Metaverse can be described as an Infinite Dimensional Multiverse that can create Near-Infinite Dimensional Multiverses.

Imagine my shock that all this stuff is still within the bleed, below the Monitors, below the Sphere of the Gods, below Dream's book and Dream fears Lucifer and recognizes and respects the Presence. There is nothing to suggest that any Hadou God is at this level.

I'll provide more other scans in my next post about DC's increasingly growing cosmology and the numbers of meta entities there. For now, a few scans indicative of DC's Infinite Multiversal and Dimensional cosmology.

Show me literally anything that could support Lucifer taking this,ane I'll concede that point. Your only legitimate point is that Lucifer could just wipe Reind away like he did here:http://i.imgur.com/zAbp77M.jpg,but I'm not even sure if that'd put him down. Plus,Reinds spear has already tagged him,because it's uh, *acasual*.

Reinhard is never going to recover from an existence erasure from Lucifer, period, not in anyway, nay, niet, no. He has no feats of tanking or recovering existence destruction from something Lucifer's level that manipulates forces beyond understanding.

To deny the Morningstar power cannot affect Reinhard because of the Taikyoku protecting him is the same as saying the Presence, GEB, Primal Monitor and etc. cannot affect him.

Also, Lucifer's power isn't really his power, it's actually the Presence, Lucifer is merely a vessel to a sub-power of Presence's Scholastic Omnipotence which is the power to Manipulate. And Presence's aconceptual power has reached scales FAR beyond Reinhard's source and origin of power.

Let's even pretend that Presence is not a co-aspect of the same being with GEB, Primal Monitor, the Source, etc. who are all ridiculously top tier gods in DC whose powers also supercede anything from Dies Irae.

I'm not even using "Omnipotent" claims and arguments against you either regarding Presence's power, I'm using SCHOLASTIC (Nigh) attached to it. Let's pretend that's the case for YOUR benefit, see?

Do not call me wanking, if anything, I'm already lowballing here for you in a way. It's kind of crazy I'm accused of the one wanking here.

Lucifer doesn't even need to tag. His powers attack like an Omnipresent force already, which you know, is the ultimate tagging attack. He just thinks you out.

What does Lucifer being able to affect people from other universes away even matter here? He's never *actually done* anything insane with it,and his best use of it was giving someone a heart attack: http://i.imgur.com/8wYdOua.jpg .

That's Lucifer's Will power reaching into other Creations (Multiverses) and it proves his range can omnipresently bypass voids and dimensional barriers.

So It shows that his Will Power can reach other Creations throughout the Void.

I don't understand what's so difficult to believe about Lucy's power being Omnipresent. His entire Creation with Michael is considered a Multiverse in on itself, the size of Presence's Creation.

And for the love of God,don't keep up the "muh Lucifers Will" wank.

Woah woah... these are just fictional characters okay? We don't even own these imaginary things.

Let's avoid pulling wank accusations until we're done here because I only interest myself in conversations with a good vibe.

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B3rnkastel

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#25  Edited By B3rnkastel

<p><span data-message-user="reply"><a href="/profile/sungsam/" rel="" data-embed-type="mention" data-ref-id="" data-user-slug="sungsam" data-mce-search-selected-title="" data-message="reply">@sungsam </a></span>: I apologize for the wank accusations and do actually agree with you on some points,such as Reind not being able to tank/recover from being wiped out of existence from Lucifer.

Thank you for the scan of Batmite talking about the Multiverse and the other one confirming there being infinite dimensions,I was actually looking for those lol.</p><p>

And I'm not upset or heated in any way here lol,just wanted to throw out my opinion regarding this thread(which I'll admit came out as a bit snarky). These are indeed just fictional characters.

All in all,I think I'll change this to being a 50/50 fight,and possibly 60/40 leaning towards Lucifer. I'm not a fan of some of your terminology used,but your arguments that compared the size and complexity of the two verses,thus proving Lucifer's true standing,have convinced me that he's stronger than I initially let on.

You don't have to fill me in on DC top-tiers too, especially regarding beings like the Primal Monitor(I'd consider myself probably his biggest defender/debater that I've seen take his side among various sites actually).</p><p>

I guess this is a concession of sorts.</p>

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Lordflawlez

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Lucifer erases him out of existence

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Mitear

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Fist point: "Metaverse" is only a fancy/cringe term that only designates something "bigger" than infinite multiverse, when in reality a "metaverse" is nothing but a simple infinite multiverse.

You know the Hilbert's Hotel? This "paradox" show that Infnity × Infinity = The same infinity. In other word, a infinite multiverse × Infinity = The same infinite multiverse. When you reach infinity, the only way to grew bigger is adding dimensions (In fact, a higher dimensions is "infinitely" bigger than a lower dimension).

Even if we consider a multiverse like a five dimensional structure (A multiverse contain a infinite number of universes/Four dimensional structures), then a "metaverse" shouldn't be bigger than a six dimensional structure because contain a infinite number of multiverse. But based in what you wrote, the DC "multiverse" should have infinite dimensions.

Second Point: The Throne encompasses not only a infinite multiverse, but also infinite dimensions:

「すなわち、すでに神座にある己を知覚したからこそ、そこに至った。それまで単一時間、単一宇宙のみで構成されていた座の機構を、破壊し書き換えたのが彼である」

“In a word, he who was already in the Divine Throne perceives himself that way that he arrived to there. The mechanism of the Throne that encompassed single time and single universe until now, it was he who destroyed and rewrote it.”

「現在過去未来の内包、多元的並行宇宙の同時掌握。それを成したこの男は、過去三代を上回る最大の支配領域を獲得した中興の祖と断言できる」

“The inclusion of the past, present and future and the simultaneous seizure of multitudes of parallel universes. This man who achieved it, can only be affirmed as progenitor of resurrection who acquired the largest dominant territory that exceeds the three previous generations.”

「簡潔に述べるならば、三代目の座にとってこの男は、別の時間軸と宇宙から飛来してきた怪物に他ならない」

“Simply put, for the Third Throne, this man was none other than a monster that hailed from another time axis and another universe.”

「原因と結果を入れ替えたことによって発生した彼の宇宙は、歴代で類を見ないほど摩訶不思議なものと化す」

“The creation of his universe by the replacement of cause and result, becomes the greatest mystery among all successive Thrones.”

「神座となった彼が、原因不明の既知感に苛まれながら放浪すること幾星霜……その果てに出会った女へ抱いた激烈なまでの恋情」

“He, who became the Shinza, turned into a wanderer for many months and years while he was tormented by the Déjà Vu feeling of the unknown origin… The fierce love he embraces toward the woman he met at the end of that journey.”

「我はこの女の手によって生を終えたい。その刹那に、至上至高の未知をくれ」

“I want her to end my life. In that moment, give me the most supreme of all unknown.”

「男の渇望はその一点。しかもそれが発動したのは、神座にあって己が自滅因子に討滅された瞬間である」

“His earnest craving is that of single point. Moreover, for that to active is the moment he himself in the Shinza was destroyed by the Self-Destruction Factor.”

「意味が分からない。理屈が通らない。神となった彼が、死の間際に神となって流れ出すなど、誰が見ても筋道として破綻している」

“That meaning is incomprehensible. That reason is unacceptable. He, who is a God, ascending to a God as he emanates on the verge of his death, logic like that should have failed already as far as anyone can see.”

「しかし、彼はそれを可能にする者なのだ。多元時間、多元宇宙、あらゆる領域に手を伸ばしてその不条理を成立させる」

“Yet, he was someone who can make such thing possible. As the one who extends his grasp on multitime, multiverse and all territories/domains, he can establish such absurdity.”

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But but the throne also transcends the entire multiverse and the dimensions, to the point that the concepts of time and space themselves are completely inapplicable for it.

Third Point: And the feat of 24 dimensions was made by Yakou Madara (One of he principal characters of Kajiro Kamui Kagura/KKK/Kajiri), who at that point in the story was still human; not Taikyoku/Taiji involucred. Even his opponent, Tenma Ootake, laughed about it and destroy de th 24th dimensional barrier with a single punch, without Taikyoku.

Fourth Point: The power of the gods, Taikyoku/Taiji, is basically the origin of everything in Shinza Bansho, of every single concept and law, of any type of information and existence, of every sigle space-time structure of any complexity, of the very own duality. Basically, the Taikyoku is a "passive" version of the "Dunamis Demiurgos" of Michael, since the Taikyoku of a god (Well, technically the gods are Taikyoku) is maniested in the form of their laws.

Currently, we have the Taikyoku "value" (A form of knowing the strenght of the law of a god), being the value of Reinhard 90 in his peak. It should be noted that the difference between values are immesurable, even with only one of difference, as seen with Shiori Kujou, who has the ability to invoke infinite copies of herself and merge them into a single attack; her Taikyoku is 60 in every moment.

And yes, outsiede of Shinza, the Taikyoku only serves as Power scaling between gods: The Throne --Immesurable--> God with only 1 Taikyoku --Immesurable---> God with 2 Taikyoku, and so on. Even the Gudou gods witn only 60 of Taikyoku were able to damage the mandala/word of Hajun (Wich is as big as Mercurius's world), and they are almos completly stomped by the "shadow" of Nerose/Third Heaven, wich one is completly stomped by the true Nerose (80 Taikyoku), whos was stomped/one-shotted by, literally, the weakest attack of Mercurius, which es equal to Reinhard.

The Mandala/World of Hajun:

The great Mandala behind that spreads out, it became the Manji of Alaiyeshi/Eight Consciousness that shines like a halo, this fellow is what we are told to be the one who seizes all parallel universes that exist infinitely.

Such what it is, this is definitely the Shinza…….As the being of the top, there is nothing strange for one to be awe in front of him. To the same way of a giant tree and a high peak, such an effect was accompanied by having an overwhelmingly enormous mass

He is gloomy, words dripped like monologue and thrown to talk about everything. Whenever and each time each sound was sung, stars will disappeared from the Mandala in the back.

Light gets darkened. The territory of the darkness expanded. Just by a few words now, how many unknowable number of universes had been crushed?

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*****************

Well, I guess that was everything. I think this battle will finish in a "loop", neither Rein nor Luci will be able to defeat the other.

And the quotes, I really don't know who translated them, I found them in a battle that included Mercurius.

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Sungsam

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#28  Edited By Sungsam

@mitear:

That's because DC DOES have infinite higher spatial dimensions, as iterated in many scans over and over again. A Metaverse is in itself, by its very nature, infinite dimensional. It's had infinite dimensions long before a vast majority of VNs even existed and the Metaverse is just a rewording of the whole thing. The Local Multiverse Group within the Bleed has 52 anchor worlds that constantly, for every tiny event from atoms to galaxies to skyscrapers, constantly (if not every infinitesimal of time) multiply infinite universes into infinite multiverses every constant, and DC authors also confirmed for infinite higher spatial dimensions again. In fact, each of the 52 Universes are individually infinite dimensional in theory, and we're not even talking about the unseen multiverses like the Elseworld's Multiverses that were just remade into canon, or the 52 Dark Multiverse in Dark Knights Metal.

Yes, I know about the Taikyoku, it is the origin for everything and etc. and etc. it is above the throne, beyond concepts, etc. sure, maybe just because the dimensions in DI are finite, that should not nullify Reinhard's possible capability to destroy any dimension he wants, even if it is infinite higher spatial.

Maybe Reinhard CAN destroy infinite dimensions if you put him in DC. Because it is above the concept of dimensions right? Maybe Reinhard is infinity above Outerversal tiering non sense over Lucifer. So it should not matter if the dimensions in DI are finite, right? Reinhard should overcome any higher spatial dimension even if it is feasibly beyond what is seriously provable in DI right? HOWEVER, this is again, theoretical. A theory. AND, however. This is just as theoretical as assuming True Omnipotence can exist in fiction and just saying it wins no matter what even though it has no feats of even being Multiversal. Like saying Outerversal no matter what. It's also a massive theory. It's statement based, and we expand its definition to what it else it can do.

You see, if I say Character X is a God who created 1 Universe in his setting only, and he is beyond the concept of a Universe inside a setting with 1 Universe only, nobody will think that guy is Multiversal. People will ask for feats. People say he is just Universe tier. How can he be Multiverse tier if there's only 1 Universe in his setting? You cannot prove it.

So why is it that when Dimensions are into account, nobody cares what size it is and all that matters is that you're beyond dimensions in your setting, it would apply to settings where dimensions are bigger? We know that even concepts in fiction won't work the same way, being above death in verse X won't mean beyond death in verse Y. We know that Death of the Endless is likely more powerful than Mistress Death, they're not the same, they're both concepts, but 1 concept is more powerful than an equivalent in another setting. We cannot always put cross equivocations.

Kratos is above destiny in his verse, he'll still get his ass kicked by many Destiny characters and bind him to fate. That's why Cosmology Tiering exists.

Standards to question that would normally apply to other constructs in settings is not applied when we're comparing dimensional transcension. That seems too arbitrary to me.

Actually, I don't know who will win between Lucifer and Reinhard. This entire thread where I was arguing is merely me testing the person I was arguing with. Lucifer will win based on some perspectives if you favor Cosmology tiering, Reinhard wins based on Outerverse tiering, they stalemate according to you and the last guy I argued with. I research Multiversal characters for research because I'm working on said characters myself.

Depends on what you think, these characters don't exist anyway, they're just figments of our imagination, and either of them get stomped by Suggsverse Gods that are badly written fanfic characters.

I benefit because some of my characters are influenced by a mix of many characters from Comics and Manga. And I just dance, tralalalala

Regards!

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Mitear

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@sungsam:

Regardless of what you have said is real/irony/sarcasm/metaphor/Godknowswhatelse, I agree with the last thing you wrote: In this type of battles it is almost impossible to determine who wins; or "ends" inconclusive, or you go to the character that you like the most.

So this thread can no longer offer more I guess.

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Sungsam

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#30  Edited By Sungsam

@mitear: said

But but the throne also transcends the entire multiverse and the dimensions, to the point that the concepts of time and space themselves are completely inapplicable for it.

Third Point: And the feat of 24 dimensions was made by Yakou Madara (One of he principal characters of Kajiro Kamui Kagura/KKK/Kajiri), who at that point in the story was still human; not Taikyoku/Taiji involucred. Even his opponent, Tenma Ootake, laughed about it and destroy de th 24th dimensional barrier with a single punch, without Taikyoku.

Fourth Point: The power of the gods, Taikyoku/Taiji, is basically the origin of everything in Shinza Bansho, of every single concept and law, of any type of information and existence, of every sigle space-time structure of any complexity, of the very own duality. Basically, the Taikyoku is a "passive" version of the "Dunamis Demiurgos" of Michael, since the Taikyoku of a god (Well, technically the gods are Taikyoku) is maniested in the form of their laws.

Throne transcends an infinite Multiverse, its complexity is unknown, it transcends higher spatial dimensions, its complexity is also unknown. What does transcending even mean for you anyway? Indifference or indifference and superiority. Throne could be infinite dimensional, I could be wrong, HEY, I could be wrong, but it's not stated.

As for transcending, be careful with that word. in Dr. Who, 2D beings can kill 3D Humans but cannot be harmed by Humans. This dimensiony stuff makes no sense in fiction. Transcending dimensions, whether altogether or at some level, really doesn't mean much in fiction. Even less than Omnipotence..

In regards to your third point. Did you know, in fiction, you can have higher spatial dimension constructs that are not even necessarily referring to Multi-Multiverses? Dimensions are pointless when there is very little light in regards to a Multi-Multiversal setting. When writers use dimensions, they don't really know what it is or even comprehend what that implies to an infinite multiverse that should expand over and over. Even DC doesn't, their definition is half to mostly off from what I've read. In fact, 5D Imps are capable of destroying things beyond the 5th dimension at times. Nothing makes sense with dimensions. The 5th dimension in verse X might be greater than 5th dimension in verse Y.

Certainly, I agree. Yes, it is the seed of all creation and beyond it. That is what the Taikyoku is. Unfortunately, Taikyoku are not the origin for dimensions, laws, existence and concepts in other verses and other beings from other verses are not subject to its rules, and the same goes for the power of the Presence, both the Dunamis and the Morningstar power. They adhere by totally different systems and omnipotence power logic. It's anyone's guess what happens.

Maybe Lucifer loses and Presence's power has no effect on Taikyoku creations and emanations because its different and it is more powerful, maybe the Taikyoku gets absorbed into the Primal Monitor and all Hadou Gods are subject to the will of the Presence, who knows what'll happen? There needs to be some CRAZY ass crossover stuff to clarify. Or maybe TR Superman steps in and NLFs against the Hadou Gods because his story is more popular and all that CA Superman wank non sense. Who knows.

It's like that time when I argued that Reinhard can probably kill Azathoth because Reinhard exists outside of Azathoth's dream and Reinhard's existence is not subject to any of Azathoth's influence and because Reinhard is not Azathoth's dream, Reinhard can just destroy Azathoth, doesn't matter how Omnipotent Azathoth is really, if you really think about it. IDK.

There is no way to properly equalize verses when we speak of characters at this level. There are many models and ways to look at it, yet all cannot be true at the same time, only one of it can.

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@sungsam:

that's why the Taikyoku is only ocuped for PS outside of the Shinza verse. The mechanics of the Taikyoku are commonly ingnored (Someone being unnable to damage a god because he doesn't have Taikyoku and that sort of things), except the point of "trascendence" (For me means "superiority"); the typical stuff about this type of character.

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TonyStark6999

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Lucifer spites

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Helloman

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Reinhard wins.

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Syntix

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lucifer easy.

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johnsmjs36

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While people say that Lucifer created the dc multiverse the size of the multiverse itself has been questioned. If I remember correctly in the series only two universes were ever seen which was later merged with another and Elaine became its new god. But in the same series we are told that it was a million universes. So it matters to which universe we take into consideration. The million universe in Lucifer, 52 mainstream universes or composite infine multiverse. The setting of Dies Irae makes it hard to really guage their power. The hadou gods themselves are a multiverse. Their powers are such that their law or better told their multiverse continuously expands and recreate the entirety of the reality no matter the dimensions or size. It doesn't matter if it is a singualr universe or infinite multiverse. Afterall, till satanael the hadou ruled only one universe but since mercurius they rule infinite multiverses. So if Reinhard comes to dc multiverse or void his law would take control of everything until The Presence himself intervenes. So i believe Reinhard takes this.

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TheOneAboveLife

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While people say that Lucifer created the dc multiverse

He co-created it.

lucifer stomps.

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Sungsam

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#37  Edited By Sungsam

@johnsmjs36 said:

While people say that Lucifer created the dc multiverse the size of the multiverse itself has been questioned. If I remember correctly in the series only two universes were ever seen which was later merged with another and Elaine became its new god. But in the same series we are told that it was a million universes. So it matters to which universe we take into consideration. The million universe in Lucifer, 52 mainstream universes or composite infine multiverse. The setting of Dies Irae makes it hard to really guage their power. The hadou gods themselves are a multiverse. Their powers are such that their law or better told their multiverse continuously expands and recreate the entirety of the reality no matter the dimensions or size. It doesn't matter if it is a singualr universe or infinite multiverse. Afterall, till satanael the hadou ruled only one universe but since mercurius they rule infinite multiverses. So if Reinhard comes to dc multiverse or void his law would take control of everything until The Presence himself intervenes. So i believe Reinhard takes this.

The size of DC's Multiverse changes depending on who you ask. There is 1 to 2 scans (from two different writers) saying it is Infinite Dimensional while the Metaverse scan by Dan Didio (who is DC's Vice President) that there are Infinite Higher Levels of Existence. And another that implies that there are Infinite Generations of Multiverses created for the instants between moments inside the Physical Multiverse alone. Which is still Infinite Higher Dimensional equivalent.

So in the physical Multiverse of DC alone, each single universe expands into infinite universes every instant and goes the same for every other.

Also, the Sphere of the Gods has Heaven and Hell that has a Universe for every soul that comes from the Physical Multiverse. Imagine how larger it even is, for every soul in each of these expanding universes.

All of that however, is contained within Limbo, which is contained in the Monitor Sphere, which is all contained inside Destiny of the Endless's book, who Lucifer is more powerful than.

So anything you say of Hadou Gods expanding inside themselves as Multiverses (at an unknown rate) is already true for Lucifer's side at greater levels when I was arguing here at the time.

The Hadou Gods themselves are embodiment of Baseline Multiverses. Each of Infinite Universes. This is very baseline to me, but I tend to say they may be several tiers of Megaversal in potency. Unless they have feats of manipulating extremely large Cosmologies that expand extremely massively on all ends like DC with multiple sources at a time. I really don't see them able to control the entirety of DC's massive Multiverse.

Let alone the Dark Multiverse which is implied to be infinitely larger than the normal Source Wall Multiverse. Unless they have feats of doing such a thing.

You say the size doesn't matter? Well to us, it does. That's the problem. It matters, it does not, yadayadayada, it's kind of an endless boring subject when I argue with Outerversalists.

Lucifer on the other hand is a little iffy. I don't share exactly the same view of Lucifer as I used to before. I was the one who posted the scan on how many Universes. But note that scan did not say it was just a Million Universes. Because that same series is a sequel to a comic that said that DC's Main Yahweh Multiverse had infinite universes.

Because DC writers are not really consistent in the number of universes there are. Or how many Higher Megaverses or Higher Dimensions there are. However, the number of times DC's Multiverse was stated to be Infinite Dimensional outnumbers the number of times it was said to be 10 Dimensional or 26 Dimensional for example.

If you really want a a more interesting debate, with an interesting nitch my friend! It would be best if you allowed the opponents to use the maximum number. Nonetheless, the number of dimensions of DC which dictate a finite number don't really say the number is limited to that. But we have to take Matteis's stuff over other writer's into account.

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johnsmjs36

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@sungsam: I am new in this type of thing and what I don't understand is how a battle between beings like Reinhard and Lucifer can conclude? After all they are at the very least multiversal and their full power depends upon the interpretation. I mean the way taikyoku works is that it warps reality no matter the structure or size. The size and structure hardly matters because the taikyoku is gained after comprehension of one's law meaning understanding of oneself at least in my point of view. The term multiverse itself is hard to comprehend afterall everything that exists lies in the ever expanding universe. What separates a universe with a multiverse for no boundary can limit the ever expansion of cosmos. Shinza Bansho is more philosophical in nature and its power depends upon the universe. The multiverse of Mercurius was frequently expanding after every resets and Marie's law was increasing Mercurius multiverse with every increasing no of souls due to reincarnation.

Lucifer's power works in the same ways as Hadou Gods as he too can warp the reality as he wills no matter the size. Afterall, he made it and he was given the will of god. But the hadaou gods are reality themselves. What they believe in is reality. They create the worlds themselves without any help which is something Lucifer lacks. Even among hadou comes the power of taikyoku value. Each higher value trancending the lower one by an infinite number. Each god Omnipotent and omnipresent in their own law only surpassed by a higher god. Lucifer himself can be deplwered and is bound by fate. He transcends the one ones he created but cannot reach higher being played like a puppet. In the beginning of dies irae Mercurius was The Presence. The one who made Reinhard. The entire multiverse his plaything until Reinhard reached his level cutting the strings of fate in his own word 'the feeling of deja vu'. I am not highly knowledgeable about both the series. I am more of an anime and manga boy. Just started this year. And I am soaking as much as I can. I have read 2015 Lucifer and from there I know that Lucifer csn be beaten even by those weaker than him.

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Sungsam

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#39  Edited By Sungsam

@johnsmjs36: I'll reply to you in better detail tomorrow rather, as to the issues of DC's Cosmology and why debates in regards to Lucifer should be banned, because it is really difficult to really pinpoint how strong Lucifer is with all the funny writing. It's really complicated. Is that okay?

I'll say for now that Lucifer 2015 isn't really canon since the 2018 Lucifer literally ignores its events. Anywho, Lucifer is weak when without his wings.

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lucifer

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etriel

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#42  Edited By etriel

@sungsam:

actually as i just discovered. even the original sandman comics also implied that there were infinite dimensions.

No Caption Provided

the presence and lucifer were outside of time and space. and looking down at creation from their perspective in the void.

to their perspective. there are infinite layers and axis (which is a synonym to geometric dimensions and coordinates like the coordinates in a quantum multiverse) is full of infinite repetition.

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#43  Edited By Sungsam

@etriel said:

@sungsam:

actually as i just discovered. even the original sandman comics also implied that there were infinite dimensions.

No Caption Provided

the presence and lucifer were outside of time and space. and looking down at creation from their perspective in the void.

to their perspective. there are infinite layers and axis (which is a synonym to geometric dimensions and coordinates like the coordinates in a quantum multiverse) is full of infinite repetition.

Yeah, that scan is hard for me to understand. All things are endlessly layered, perception twists those layered things around its own AXIS (which means geometric dimension) crippled by infinite repetition. Since they are describing the perception of Time and Space where no Time is (they are way about in the Void). And the Endless Layered thing, like Infinite Dimensions.

It seems to me as such, best the events of Space and Time there are layered infinitely into many layers like Infinite Dimensions. It's very in line with how the Endless are stated to embody Wave Functions which are constructs of an expanding Quantum Multiverse as well (seeing as how Dream pervades a Quantum Multiverse) seems to coincide with this.

We'll have to form more discussions on DA again over this. But I don't use this scan due to the other contradicting descriptions of how many universes there are in Sandman.

(Also, as we both kind of agree on. M. Carey's Lucifer is barely even pseudo-canonical these days.)

But I do not agree with you that we can use that scan to prove that DC is currently Infinite Dimensional though, because of the pseudo-canonicity.

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Voice_of_Death

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Morningstar.

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johnsmjs36

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@sungsam: I think characters such as the Hadou Gods and Lucifer should not be used. Their powers are hard to guauge. Terms like megaverse and such are thrown around surimg debates.

If we look at hadou gods ability to warp reality and Lucifer's ability to warp reality. They both in the end are similar. So it becomes hard to guage their relative powers until their full scope is determined.

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Sungsam

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#46  Edited By Sungsam

@johnsmjs36 said:

@sungsam: I think characters such as the Hadou Gods and Lucifer should not be used. Their powers are hard to guauge. Terms like megaverse and such are thrown around surimg debates.

If we look at hadou gods ability to warp reality and Lucifer's ability to warp reality. They both in the end are similar. So it becomes hard to guage their relative powers until their full scope is determined.

Lucifer can warp 4 higher layers of Metaphysical Outerversal Timeless Spaceless dimensions that are each infinitely greater than the level below it. This is the Source Wall, Monitor Sphere (Platonic), Limbo (Timeless) and Sphere of the Gods (Archetypal and contains 1-A realms like the Dreaming and etc.)

So even with Outerverse wank, Lucifer is InfinityXInfinityXInfinity above the Sphere of the Gods and baseline Outerversal. Which is then above the DC Metaverse that has Outerversal Black Holes in each of these Infinite Metaversal and Outeversal Universes. And Lucifer would autoshit on Reinhard even with the Outerverse wank. And is more than enough to stomp even Hajun and the Throne.

Gets even worse with Composite DC Cosmology which is really deep into the Outerversal tier. Which makes the Sphere of the Gods that are 1-A, look like Infinite Layers of 1-A with Sena's statements on the layer taken into account. Above the 1-A duplicating infinitely and instantly expanding Metaverse with Outerversal Black Holes.

Consider that the difference between each Taikyoku level is only Immeasurable based on what I heard of from @etriel.

I have considered my assessment. No matter tiering system we use, Reinhard has 0 of nothing on Lucifer. All that Hax with no limits means nothing if Reinhard is a 0/non-existing thing to Lucifer containable within the also NLFable Complex DC Cosmology inside the Books of Dream and Limbo containing all imagination bar Omnipotence of Japanese Humans who can create a VN similar to Dies Irae.

Lucifer has tanked Concept an Infinite-Deaths Hax empowered by same leveled Outerversal beings like Destiny of the Endless. Please know that Lucifer's power is empowered by a being who transcends several Outerversal Voids and is in fact, aiding Lucifer with half of his power sets.

So if we can have Outerversal Highball, I can play the game and more.

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#47  Edited By TheRemorseless

@sungsam: The whole thing depends both the tiering system and interpretations of their feats.

Going by the outerversal "wank" you are speaking of, it's actually quite the opposite, Lucy warping 4 higher layers of "Metaphysical Outerversal Timeless Spaceless dimensions" is treated as merely 4 degrees of infinity above baseline or what VSBW call "4 transcendences above baseline". On the contrary, the difference between one Taikyoku is "immeasurable", that is true, but in the context that it's so great that "a set of infinity" will not cut it as a god with lower taikyoku will be treated as a completely irrelevant existence, the difference of Taikyoku can also be treated as "higher layers of existence", and Reinhard can warp 90 of them.

Reinhard would stomp Lucifer so hard it's not even funny if you use "Outahverse" tiering system.

As for the thread, I'm fairly neutral. It's either a stomp for Reinhard or Lucy. Though, I want to clarify a few things here. Even if you were to use Cardinality/Cosmology tiering, saying that Reinhard is merely a multiversal being is a downplay. In an era that the Third Heaven (Nerose Satanel) ruled, there was only a universe. Mercurius, after reaching the Throne, destroyed said universe and created completely new cosmology consisting multiverses from the past, present, and future, might aswell say that it's an infinite multiverse, ON A WHIM. It has also been stated that the heat from the body of a Hadou god is enough to destroy all the exist in Shinzaverse. The whole Shinzaverse will always be just as big and complex as the Throne God so desire. If they want it to be Infinite Multiverse, then it will be infinite multiverse. If they want it to be a single universe, then it will be a single universe.

All these arguments aside, I completely agree with you on the stupidity of the term Outerversal. Just wanted to point some stuffs out.

Also, this is my first reply ever. No hate here.

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Sungsam

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#48  Edited By Sungsam

@theremorseless said:

The whole thing depends both the tiering system and interpretations of their feats.

Indeed was my position here months ago, thank you for seeing my perspective on this!

@theremorseless said:

@sungsam:

Going by the outerversal "wank" you are speaking of, it's actually quite the opposite, Lucy warping 4 higher layers of "Metaphysical Outerversal Timeless Spaceless dimensions" is treated as merely 4 degrees of infinity above baseline or what VSBW call "4 transcendences above baseline". On the contrary, the difference between one Taikyoku is "immeasurable", that is true, but in the context that it's so great that "a set of infinity" will not cut it as a god with lower taikyoku will be treated as a completely irrelevant existence, the difference of Taikyoku can also be treated as "higher layers of existence", and Reinhard can warp 90 of them.

Reinhard would stomp Lucifer so hard it's not even funny if you use "Outahverse" tiering system.

Well, as I once argued before, those Metaphysical Layers become infinitely layered once you take into the account of Sena and Rama Kushna who are deities from the Sphere of the Gods saying there are Infinite Dimensions of their realm. Logically it must end at Limbo, those infinite layers do, because Limbo are for characters who are long forgotten DC characters. At the very least the Source Wall.

Immeasurable is in fact, relative to the person measuring it. As such, it most of the time really just means a big number. But I see your point.

So while Reinhard can warp 90 of them, Lucifer can warp Infinity of them.

As for the thread, I'm fairly neutral. It's either a stomp for Reinhard or Lucy. Though, I want to clarify a few things here. Even if you were to use Cardinality/Cosmology tiering, saying that Reinhard is merely a multiversal being is a downplay. In an era that the Third Heaven (Nerose Satanel) ruled, there was only a universe. Mercurius, after reaching the Throne, destroyed said universe and created completely new cosmology consisting multiverses from the past, present, and future, might aswell say that it's an infinite multiverse, ON A WHIM. It has also been stated that the heat from the body of a Hadou god is enough to destroy all the exist in Shinzaverse. The whole Shinzaverse will always be just as big and complex as the Throne God so desire. If they want it to be Infinite Multiverse, then it will be infinite multiverse. If they want it to be a single universe, then it will be a single universe.

All these arguments aside, I completely agree with you on the stupidity of the term Outerversal. Just wanted to point some stuffs out.

Also, this is my first reply ever. No hate here.

My apologies! And thank you for your first reply!

My opinion on the Hadou Gods has changed. And thou my friend, will notice that I have had multiple different viewpoints on the characters as my different posts here are separated by several months.

Please forgive me for my ignorance here.

That said, I don't think Hadou Gods are baseline Multiversal at all these days. Consider if we use the String Theory application to their verse.

But thank you for understanding my problems with the Outerverse tier. And being one of the few able to calculate between different tiering systems.

I invite you to our Multiversity Debater thread, if you interest within our views!

https://comicvine.gamespot.com/forums/off-topic-5/the-multiversity-debater-bloc-2002070/#js-message-24

Also no hate here friend! Thank you for opinion.

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#49  Edited By GrandTOAA

What exactly is METAVERSE, OUTERVERSE and HYPERVERSE? Mehn, these kinda battles confuses me with all these infinite dimensional multiverses, beyond the concept of concept, and 100 - D characters

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What exactly is METAVERSE, OUTERVERSE and HYPERVERSE? Mehn, these kinda battles confuses me with all these infinite dimensional multiverses, beyond the concept of concept, and 100 - D characters

Just ignore us.