Lucifer Morningstar vs Hajun

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Gate_Guardian

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bloodlusted

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Divyansh13

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Done for 1 sexdecillion times

Lucifer wins

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deactivated-60f5dd54ab72e

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Even the weakest character in Hajun’s verse solos DC. They are high outer to boundless. While Lucifer is baseline outer

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Autopsywhip

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@mercren: The hell are you talking about?

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deactivated-60f5dd54ab72e

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@autopsywhip:

Dies Irae is a infinite-D cosmology. The taikyou grants them transcendence level and they can all be boundless. Lucifer has no way to destroy the taikyou.

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Autopsywhip

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@mercren: Can I have some scans? I don’t know the shinza cosmology all that well, but I don’t remember ever hearing all of them being boundless

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jwillis12

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I don’t know if Hajun is boundless, but I do know he killed Reinhard effortlessly. Reinhard, in turn, has destroyed a portion of the multiverse, one shots the concept of darkness represented by the entity methuselah, and has billions of souls (souls = power, basically characters with 100k souls can tank mountain-level attacks or deal out such attacks…so let’s say he has 1 billion souls, he is 10,000x more durable/stronger). If Lucifer can or has destroyed a being with similar power, I would be severely impressed. Not to mention the other gods that Hajun wiped out.

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Autopsywhip

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@jwillis12: If Hajun only scales off Reinhard, and his best feat is destroying a portion of the multiverse, then this should be a stomp in Lucifer’s direction I think

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jwillis12

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@autopsywhip: Hajun has other substantial feats, but someone with more knowledge of Dies Irae can provide support better than I (Mercurius was another extremely powerful god that was defeated, that I recall). I only know of Reinhard b/c he was one of my favorite characters, so I was surprised when he got so easily beaten. You may be right, as I don’t know full extent of Hajun or Lucifer’s power/feats.

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MonsterEnergyDr

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Lucifer blinks the verse tbh

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Acularis

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Hajun 1 shots.

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hayayubasa

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hajun would eat lucifer for a snack, he blinks dc asides from the presence

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Laufnyr

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#13  Edited By Laufnyr

Lucifer

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fih8909

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Lucifer stomps.

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Earendill

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#16  Edited By Earendill

It has been discussed many before. Lucy stomps!

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DamienWayne1

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#17  Edited By DamienWayne1

Lucifer win

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destinyman75

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When will people learn Anime verses are so much weaker then comics?? DC or marvel?? Its not that hard really. Magna doubly so.

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brogokudestroys

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When will people learn Anime verses are so much weaker then comics?? DC or marvel?? Its not that hard really. Magna doubly so.

Ok, this comment really just turns my gears. No. Many actually agree anime verses can be very much superior to comics, especially with hax.

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thopples

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#21  Edited By thopples

Lucifer stomps the verse.

If we use GEB, he gives Hajun the "Little Thing" treatment and engulfs him in extinguishing darkness.

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sultanhanhuma

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#22  Edited By sultanhanhuma

Lucifer Morningstar destroys all anime and manga, huge mismatch

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SkyAmbassador

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Hajun slaps infinite Lucifer Morningstars.

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destinyman75

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@sultanhanhuma: What A silly and self Defeating thing to stay. Comparing verses Is an obvious thing to do that's why many do it. You think Gun Fu Panda verse Is on Par with marvel or DC also??? Its a fair Question given your comment! It matters a great Deal.

You also claim Sales And popularity matters in this regard?? Your words not mine. If that's the case Then Batman Solos Any Magna ever created. (Which btw Internet sales help Magna a huge amount here FWI). If comics Had that before you wouldn't be saying that. Fallacy left and right there with that Logic.

Then you say Magna>> comics which two you haven't been relavant since the 80's, really? Go around the world See If common people even Know Who Magna characters are. Magna is big but not all over and only four the youngest Gen. Also Magna wouldn't exist without comics that paved the way for them. Also Do you know in the bix office if anything From Magna has touched the MCU or DECU in sales if you want to go that route?? Nope..

You also Showed your Obvious Biased in favor Of Magna, which Makes your Opinion Diluted to begin with. Many Magna people also are famous for Being over the top so grain of salt.

And In case you didn't notice this its COMIC VINE not Magna Vine. Just FWI.

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destinyman75

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@sultanhanhuma: What A silly and self Defeating thing to stay. Comparing verses Is an obvious thing to do that's why many do it. You think Gun Fu Panda verse Is on Par with marvel or DC also??? Its a fair Question given your comment! It matters a great Deal.

You also claim Sales And popularity matters in this regard?? Your words not mine. If that's the case Then Batman Solos Any Magna ever created. (Which btw Internet sales help Magna a huge amount here FWI). If comics Had that before you wouldn't be saying that. Fallacy left and right there with that Logic.

Then you say Magna is better then comics which you say haven't been relavant since the 80's, really? Go around the world See If common people even Know Who Magna characters are. Magna is big but not all over and only four the youngest Gen. Also Magna wouldn't exist without comics that paved the way for them. Also Do you know in the box office if anything From Magna has touched the MCU or DECU in sales if you want to go that route?? Nope..

You also Showed your Obvious Biased in favor Of Magna, which Makes your Opinion Diluted to begin with. Many Magna people also are famous for Being over the top so grain of salt.

And In case you didn't notice this its COMIC VINE not Magna Vine. Just FWI.

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brogokudestroys

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@sultanhanhuma: What A silly and self Defeating thing to stay. Comparing verses Is an obvious thing to do that's why many do it. You think Gun Fu Panda verse Is on Par with marvel or DC also??? Its a fair Question given your comment! It matters a great Deal.

You also claim Sales And popularity matters in this regard?? Your words not mine. If that's the case Then Batman Solos Any Magna ever created. (Which btw Internet sales help Magna a huge amount here FWI). If comics Had that before you wouldn't be saying that. Fallacy left and right there with that Logic.

Then you say Magna is better then comics which you say haven't been relavant since the 80's, really? Go around the world See If common people even Know Who Magna characters are. Magna is big but not all over and only four the youngest Gen. Also Magna wouldn't exist without comics that paved the way for them. Also Do you know in the box office if anything From Magna has touched the MCU or DECU in sales if you want to go that route?? Nope..

You also Showed your Obvious Biased in favor Of Magna, which Makes your Opinion Diluted to begin with. Many Magna people also are famous for Being over the top so grain of salt.

And In case you didn't notice this its COMIC VINE not Magna Vine. Just FWI.

while you have a point in him bringing up nonsense, both manga and comics have countries and cities that will recognize specifc characters or comics. Goku and Batman are known to everybody, literally everybody. Also bringing up movies is a low blow considering like all live action anime movies are worse than anything the dceu could ever produce or even batman and robin.

this box office stuff has really no relevancy, and anime n mangas I see as more popular nowadays than comic chars, also manga and anime has stuff called Hentai! Not kid friendly..

Genuine question though, do you really think Pr Beyonder a man who's best statement is being claimed infinite-D can beat a being like Hajun who has this claim PLUS conceptual stuff PLUS a transcendence nlf and more? The only way lucifer wins here is superior feats potentially.

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destinyman75

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@brogokudestroys: Rhe Beyonder is way Beyond Infinite D. Don't know where You are Getting that from? Beyonder was TOAA...He has the power of the Authors themselves. He literally writes his own story.. Stan Lee-

In Fact he gets so bored he tries To expierment and see what happens. Molecule Man Even with Beyonder power Stated he was a mere Fly to Beyonder..Beyonder never really loses He sees what would happen to learn. Hes like a child with a Chemistry set With Unlimited power. So yes I have yet to see why He would be in any danger here from those. He would lose only If He wanted too Just to see what would happen

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brogokudestroys

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@brogokudestroys: Rhe Beyonder is way Beyond Infinite D. Don't know where You are Getting that from? Beyonder was TOAA...He has the power of the Authors themselves. He literally writes his own story.. Stan Lee-

In Fact he gets so bored he tries To expierment and see what happens. Molecule Man Even with Beyonder power Stated he was a mere Fly to Beyonder..Beyonder never really loses He sees what would happen to learn. Hes like a child with a Chemistry set With Unlimited power. So yes I have yet to see why He would be in any danger here from those. He would lose only If He wanted too Just to see what would happen

He is not above, that doesn't have any scans to prove this.. And plus, being above still makes you infinite dimensiona????????? Beyonder and Toaa claims... MY GOD TOAA ISNT EVEN OMNIPOTENT ANYMORE. PR beyonder also has no omnipotent statements, mans is just some normal multiversal. ...You know it was stated Lucifer is above the comicbooks right? You know mxy controlled the comics or sum once right? You know Deadpool had power of his story once right? You know Larfleeze can choose to be in stories right? Pr beyonder hasn't even gotten statements of this, he is a basic multiversal with wank. Stan lee also said Galactus was the strongest villain once, held up well I imagine.

Molecule man Pr was also a normal multiversal. What do you mean "any danger" do you actually think what you said matters? If there is an "above infinite-d" and Beyonder with no statements is omnipotent, then Hajun is above omnipotence lol. Most of dies irae is children with unlimited power messing with eachother and fighting. You just nlf'd the hell out of Beyonder. Nice!

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brogokudestroys

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@destinyman75 said:

@brogokudestroys: Rhe Beyonder is way Beyond Infinite D. Don't know where You are Getting that from? Beyonder was TOAA...He has the power of the Authors themselves. He literally writes his own story.. Stan Lee-

In Fact he gets so bored he tries To expierment and see what happens. Molecule Man Even with Beyonder power Stated he was a mere Fly to Beyonder..Beyonder never really loses He sees what would happen to learn. Hes like a child with a Chemistry set With Unlimited power. So yes I have yet to see why He would be in any danger here from those. He would lose only If He wanted too Just to see what would happen

He is not above, that doesn't have any scans to prove this.. And plus, being above still makes you infinite dimensiona????????? Beyonder and Toaa claims... MY GOD TOAA ISNT EVEN OMNIPOTENT ANYMORE. PR beyonder also has no omnipotent statements, mans is just some normal multiversal. ...You know it was stated Lucifer is above the comicbooks right? You know mxy controlled the comics or sum once right? You know Deadpool had power of his story once right? You know Larfleeze can choose to be in stories right? Pr beyonder hasn't even gotten statements of this, he is a basic multiversal with wank. Stan lee also said Galactus was the strongest villain once, held up well I imagine.

Molecule man Pr was also a normal multiversal. What do you mean "any danger" do you actually think what you said matters? If there is an "above infinite-d" and Beyonder with no statements is omnipotent, then Hajun is above omnipotence lol. Most of dies irae is children with unlimited power messing with eachother and fighting. You just nlf'd the hell out of Beyonder. Nice!

Current marvel also messed up this acclaimed omnipotent and made him quite universal actually. Maybe current marvel solos fiction because this nlf PR Beyonder thing is apparently above the very concept of concepts and just imagines everything and marvel is beyond imagining or whatever.

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SeventhMoon

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Lucifer is capable of a manipulating all of Michael's essence when he was momentarily killed, shaping it into a new multiverse. This same power within Michael was going to destroy all of Yahweh's multiverse, which would include The Endless, who embody a multitude of concepts like death, despair, destiny (history), etc. This means even the very concept of destiny (history of existence) and death are just some of the many things he can manipulate. And we know how powerful Destiny is, since the Basanos are made to mimic him and they can bring any potential possibility to the present to screw their opponent, like bringing one of the many possibilities where they die to the present and killing them instantly. Yet despite this, their manipulation of future events to find a possibility where he is subdued in any capacity failed to effect him. They are far inferior to Lucifer and required an elaborate plan to subdue him temporarily. And even when he was defeated by his own power backfiring on him, he didn't die, stating that Death had no claim over him.

What can Hajun do to a guy who has resisted the manipulation of infinite possibilities being brought to the present to kill or subdue him in some way, has power over the Endless and what they represent, is unable to be claimed by the embodiment of death itself, is the will of the omnipotent Presence and shaped Michael's essence into his own multiverse, which represents the power of the Presence, etc? And this is just the beginning. Lucifer should have all of the powers of the Endless since shaping creation created them as a bi-product and he is entirely above them. He even burned Destiny's pages. What's stopping him from instantly willing Hajun out of existence, manipulating possibilities to where Hajun dies or is subdued and brings them to the present, instantly defeating him, etc? Even infinity is just an extension of his will, which is the will of the Presence. Anything Hajun throws at Lucifer he should be able to manipulate the very essence of and turn it against him. Lucifer has very few restrictions that keep him from being completely omnipotent and those few restrictions aren't enough for Hajun to capitalize on, not even close.

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brogokudestroys

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Lucifer is capable of a manipulating all of Michael's essence when he was momentarily killed, shaping it into a new multiverse. This same power within Michael was going to destroy all of Yahweh's multiverse, which would include The Endless, who embody a multitude of concepts like death, despair, destiny (history), etc. This means even the very concept of destiny (history of existence) and death are just some of the many things he can manipulate. And we know how powerful Destiny is, since the Basanos are made to mimic him and they can bring any potential possibility to the present to screw their opponent, like bringing one of the many possibilities where they die to the present and killing them instantly. Yet despite this, their manipulation of future events to find a possibility where he is subdued in any capacity failed to effect him. They are far inferior to Lucifer and required an elaborate plan to subdue him temporarily. And even when he was defeated by his own power backfiring on him, he didn't die, stating that Death had no claim over him.

What can Hajun do to a guy who has resisted the manipulation of infinite possibilities being brought to the present to kill or subdue him in some way, has power over the Endless and what they represent, is unable to be claimed by the embodiment of death itself, is the will of the omnipotent Presence and shaped Michael's essence into his own multiverse, which represents the power of the Presence, etc? And this is just the beginning. Lucifer should have all of the powers of the Endless since shaping creation created them as a bi-product and he is entirely above them. He even burned Destiny's pages. What's stopping him from instantly willing Hajun out of existence, manipulating possibilities to where Hajun dies or is subdued and brings them to the present, instantly defeating him, etc? Even infinity is just an extension of his will, which is the will of the Presence. Anything Hajun throws at Lucifer he should be able to manipulate the very essence of and turn it against him. Lucifer has very few restrictions that keep him from being completely omnipotent and those few restrictions aren't enough for Hajun to capitalize on, not even close.

Yes, and dies irae has these similar things. they are all fodder to hajun. There are no possibility in dies irae where Hajun can lose. Death is fodder in dies irae. Infinite possibilities is fodder in dies irae. And Hajun isn't the only one to be above these infinite possibility attempts, so could Reinhardt. Infinity is an extension nlf? No, Lucifer cannoy manipulate hajun in any way. Lucifer would be above very few concepts. Lucifer isn't even above nonexistence and the concept of nonextisence is fodder in dies irae, lucifer is an extension of geb. Hajun has little to no restrictions either, Lucifer has few heavy ones. Yes, even if Lucifer has no restrictions, Hajun still either blinks or wins.

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destinyman75

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#33  Edited By destinyman75

@brogokudestroys: Power of the authors is as high as it gets. And yes there are plenty of statements But Im at work so will have to wait

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brogokudestroys

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@brogokudestroys: Power of the authors is as high as it gets. And yes there are plenty of statements But Im at work so will have to wait

It’s actually low and gives implications to wank. Something you are doing.

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SeventhMoon

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#35  Edited By SeventhMoon

@brogokudestroys: Give me scans. If you want some for my claims, I will also give some.

There are no possibility in dies irae where Hajun can lose.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but did he not lose under specific circumstances? That counts.

Death is fodder in dies irae.

That's a vague claim, especially since they can die to my knowledge.

Infinite possibilities is fodder in dies irae.

Show me that they can manipulate them in the same way the Basanos or Destiny does.

Infinity is an extension nlf?

Oh great, an unofficial fallacy that is misused constantly.

No, Lucifer cannoy manipulate hajun in any way.

Provide evidence as to why he cannot.

Lucifer would be above very few concepts

He is the will of the Presence and unbound to almost every law of his creation to the point even The Endless have no hold over him.

Lucifer isn't even above nonexistence and the concept of nonextisence is fodder in dies irae

Now we're using illogical arguments? Oh wait, you're that guy who wanked TES to be above all possibilities and impossibilities. Thought your name was familiar. Yeah, this isn't an argument. Being above non-existence doesn't mean jack shit. You're above nothing? Great feat man. What the hell is this supposed to even mean and how is it combat-applicable?

lucifer is an extension of geb. Hajun has little to no restrictions either

Proof of Hajun having little to no restrictions? Like I said, I'll start sending scans if you want some too.

Lucifer has few heavy ones. Yes, even if Lucifer has no restrictions, Hajun still either blinks or wins.

No restrictions at all is omnipotence, so you're basically saying Hajun is above omnipotence. You've shattered your credibility even further.

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brogokudestroys

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@brogokudestroys: Give me scans. If you want some, I will also give some.

There are no possibility in dies irae where Hajun can lose.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but did he not lose under specific circumstances? That counts.

Death is fodder in dies irae.

That's a vague claim, especially since they can die to my knowledge.

Infinite possibilities is fodder in dies irae.

Show me that they can manipulate them in the same way the Basanos or Destiny does.

Infinity is an extension nlf?

Oh great, an unofficial fallacy that is misused constantly.

No, Lucifer cannoy manipulate hajun in any way.

Provide evidence as to why he cannot.

Lucifer would be above very few concepts

He is the will of the Presence and unbound to almost every law of his creation to the point even The Endless have no hold over him.

Lucifer isn't even above nonexistence and the concept of nonextisence is fodder in dies irae

Now we're using illogical arguments? Oh wait, you're that guy who wanked TES to be above all possibilities and impossibilities. Thought your name was familiar. Yeah, this isn't an argument. Being above non-existence doesn't mean jack shit. You're above nothing? Great feat man. What the hell is this supposed to even mean and how is it combat-applicable?

lucifer is an extension of geb. Hajun has little to no restrictions either

Proof of Hajun having little to no restrictions? Like I said, I'll start sending scans if you want some too.

Lucifer has few heavy ones. Yes, even if Lucifer has no restrictions, Hajun still either blinks or wins.

No restrictions at all is omnipotence, so you're basically saying Hajun is above omnipotence. You've shattered your credibility even further.

Hajun has not lost once in Dies Irae that erased him. No, they can be ERASED. So can Lucifer lol. I forgot the guy who was the concept pf dearh, but he is fodder in dies irae yet still soloing endless. The Basanos themselves did not manipulate at all, they had outright help from the inzamis or whatever they were called (been so long since I read up that comic and that word always is the one I forget) Also destiny has no control over his book, just has it and it contains everything. There is a statement somebody once sent me on your scan, you could find it in the if masada is above all possibility n impossibility or wait for me to be on later.

Lucifer is not above multiple concepts and Lucifer cannot become infinitely more powerful like 3812 and Hajun. It isn’t illogical, you brang concepts like the endless up, YOU BROUGHT THE ILLOGICAL ARGUMENTS. But it’s not wanked lool. The non-existence I refer to is a concept, like death something YOU BEEN WANKING PREVIOUSLY HYPOCRITE. Are concepts supposed to be non-applicable to you now. Wow your own logic destroyed.

Hajun outright becomes infinitely more powerful overtime. I never said was, I said using your idiotic logic, he would be.

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brogokudestroys

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@seventhmoon said:

@brogokudestroys: Give me scans. If you want some, I will also give some.

There are no possibility in dies irae where Hajun can lose.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but did he not lose under specific circumstances? That counts.

Death is fodder in dies irae.

That's a vague claim, especially since they can die to my knowledge.

Infinite possibilities is fodder in dies irae.

Show me that they can manipulate them in the same way the Basanos or Destiny does.

Infinity is an extension nlf?

Oh great, an unofficial fallacy that is misused constantly.

No, Lucifer cannoy manipulate hajun in any way.

Provide evidence as to why he cannot.

Lucifer would be above very few concepts

He is the will of the Presence and unbound to almost every law of his creation to the point even The Endless have no hold over him.

Lucifer isn't even above nonexistence and the concept of nonextisence is fodder in dies irae

Now we're using illogical arguments? Oh wait, you're that guy who wanked TES to be above all possibilities and impossibilities. Thought your name was familiar. Yeah, this isn't an argument. Being above non-existence doesn't mean jack shit. You're above nothing? Great feat man. What the hell is this supposed to even mean and how is it combat-applicable?

lucifer is an extension of geb. Hajun has little to no restrictions either

Proof of Hajun having little to no restrictions? Like I said, I'll start sending scans if you want some too.

Lucifer has few heavy ones. Yes, even if Lucifer has no restrictions, Hajun still either blinks or wins.

No restrictions at all is omnipotence, so you're basically saying Hajun is above omnipotence. You've shattered your credibility even further.

Hajun has not lost once in Dies Irae that erased him. No, they can be ERASED. So can Lucifer lol. I forgot the guy who was the concept pf dearh, but he is fodder in dies irae yet still soloing endless. The Basanos themselves did not manipulate at all, they had outright help from the inzamis or whatever they were called (been so long since I read up that comic and that word always is the one I forget) Also destiny has no control over his book, just has it and it contains everything. There is a statement somebody once sent me on your scan, you could find it in the if masada is above all possibility n impossibility or wait for me to be on later.

Lucifer is not above multiple concepts and Lucifer cannot become infinitely more powerful like 3812 and Hajun. It isn’t illogical, you brang concepts like the endless up, YOU BROUGHT THE ILLOGICAL ARGUMENTS. But it’s not wanked lool. The non-existence I refer to is a concept, like death something YOU BEEN WANKING PREVIOUSLY HYPOCRITE. Are concepts supposed to be non-applicable to you now. Wow your own logic destroyed.

Hajun outright becomes infinitely more powerful overtime. I never said was, I said using your idiotic logic, he would be.

Actually, if you can find the scan saying Dies Irae isn’t infinite, I’ll concede right then and there. Because I have no way to prove it cannot be used.

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SeventhMoon

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#38  Edited By SeventhMoon

@brogokudestroys: A lot of what you said was a garbled mess that is barely comprehensible.

Hajun has not lost once in Dies Irae that erased him.

That's not what I've heard.

No, they can be ERASED.

So they can die.

So can Lucifer lol.

You know when his power consumed him that he didn't actually die, right? He was just incapacitated and couldn't do anything further without Elaine because his power repeatedly kept backfiring on him.

The Basanos themselves did not manipulate at all, they had outright help from the inzamis or whatever they were called (been so long since I read up that comic and that word always is the one I forget)

The Basanos can manipulate possibilities in the way I said. What you are talking about is them needing help from Izanami to defeat Lucifer in an unconventional way.

No Caption Provided

Also destiny has no control over his book, just has it and it contains everything.

Because his freedom is restricted. It isn't due to inability since the Basanos are copying him, but the difference is that they have the freedom to manipulate the possibilities.

No Caption Provided

Lucifer is immune to (or should I say can negate) the manipulation of future possibilities being brought to the present to subdue him.

No Caption Provided

There is a statement somebody once sent me on your scan, you could find it in the if masada is above all possibility n impossibility or wait for me to be on later.

You cannot be above all possibilities and exist. Even Lucifer can't. He's just immune to the manipulation of possibilities screwing him by negating it. Impossibilities are just that: impossibilities. They cannot exist. And if you are arguing that they do, then the franchise in question falls into Trivialism, and you seriously don't want that.

Lucifer is not above multiple concepts

The Endless.

and Lucifer cannot become infinitely more powerful like 3812

Your misuse of higher infinities is of no concern of mine even if we take it at face value. Lucifer is the direct extension and function of an omnipotent. His power is as high as you can get. The only thing of importance is his power SET. What he is capable of preforming with his reality warping and what restrictions he has.

And take that 3812 wank somewhere else. He's not even in the thread.

It isn’t illogical, you brang concepts like the endless up, YOU BROUGHT THE ILLOGICAL ARGUMENTS.

How is bringing up The Endless illogical?

But it’s not wanked lool. The non-existence I refer to is a concept

This is extremely vague and needs explanation. How does this even work? How does this benefit him in a fight? Existing is already being above non-existence.

like death something YOU BEEN WANKING PREVIOUSLY HYPOCRITE.

How am I wanking?

Are concepts supposed to be non-applicable to you now. Wow your own logic destroyed.

It's relative to the concept in question. Being unable to die by being beyond the concept of death is not the same as stupid shit like claiming a character is beyond all possibilities and impossibilities, or above non-existence. What does that even mean? How is that combat-applicable? Being beyond the concept of death is self-explanatory. Death cannot claim him. What does Hajun being above non-existence mean in a combat situation and when comparing his reality warping power set and resistances to the opposing character?

Hajun outright becomes infinitely more powerful overtime.

That doesn't even make sense, but it's irrelevant to Lucifer. He's weaker and you have provided no evidence that he possesses the capabilities to match Lucifer's reality warping power set and resistances, which matters much more than power.

I never said was, I said using your idiotic logic, he would be.

My logic clearly went over your head if you think that's how my logic can be used.

Actually, if you can find the scan saying Dies Irae isn’t infinite, I’ll concede right then and there. Because I have no way to prove it cannot be used.

I never said it was or wasn't infinite. I asked for evidence that they can manipulate infinite possibilities in the same way the Basanos can. And can they resist it?

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brogokudestroys

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@brogokudestroys: A lot of what you said was a garbled mess that isn't comprehensible.

The Basanos themselves did not manipulate at all, they had outright help from the inzamis or whatever they were called (been so long since I read up that comic and that word always is the one I forget)

The Basanos can manipulate possibilities in the way I said. What you are talking about is them needing help from Izanami to defeat Lucifer in an unconventional way.

No Caption Provided

Also destiny has no control over his book, just has it and it contains everything.

Because his freedom is restricted. It isn't due to inability since the Basanos are copying him, but the difference is that they have the freedom to manipulate the possibilities.

No Caption Provided

Lucifer is immune to the manipulation of future possibilities being brought to the present to subdue him.

No Caption Provided

There is a statement somebody once sent me on your scan, you could find it in the if masada is above all possibility n impossibility or wait for me to be on later.

You cannot be above all possibilities and exist. Even Lucifer can't. He's just immune to the manipulation of possibilities screwing him and negates it. Impossibilities are just that: impossibilities. They cannot exist. And if you are arguing that they do, then the franchise in question falls into Trivialism, and you seriously don't want that.

Lucifer is not above multiple concepts

The Endless.

and Lucifer cannot become infinitely more powerful like 3812

Your misuse of higher infinities is of no concern of mine even if we take it at face value. Lucifer is the direct extension and function of an omnipotent. His power is as high as you can get. The only thing of importance is his power SET. What he is capable of preforming with his reality warping and what restrictions he has.

And take that 3812 wank somewhere else. He's not even in the thread.

It isn’t illogical, you brang concepts like the endless up, YOU BROUGHT THE ILLOGICAL ARGUMENTS.

How is bringing up The Endless illogical?

But it’s not wanked lool. The non-existence I refer to is a concept

This is extremely vague and needs explanation. How does this even work? How does this benefit him in a fight? Existing is already being above non-existence.

like death something YOU BEEN WANKING PREVIOUSLY HYPOCRITE.

How am I wanking?

Are concepts supposed to be non-applicable to you now. Wow your own logic destroyed.

It's relative to the concept in question. Being unable to die by being beyond the concept of death is not the same as stupid shit like claiming a character is beyond all possibilities and impossibilities, or above non-existence. What does that even mean? How is that combat-applicable? Being beyond the concept of death is self-explanatory. Death cannot claim him. What does Hajun being above non-existence mean in a combat situation and when comparing the reality warping power sets and resistances of the opposing characters?

Hajun outright becomes infinitely more powerful overtime.

That doesn't even make sense, but it's irrelevant to Lucifer. He's weaker and you have provided no evidence that he possesses the capabilities to match Lucifer's reality warping power set and resistances, which matters much more than power.

I never said was, I said using your idiotic logic, he would be.

My logic clearly went over your head if you think that's how my logic can be used.

Actually, if you can find the scan saying Dies Irae isn’t infinite, I’ll concede right then and there. Because I have no way to prove it cannot be used.

I never said it was or wasn't infinite. I asked for evidence that they can manipulate infinite possibilities in the same way the Basanos can. And can they resist it?

Lol. I simply just don’t show the key point I am making.

Yes, I actually think that the Basanos are a free range Destiny of the endless. They seeked a needed possibility to almost defeat Lucifer is all I meant.

He still almost died though. And his form seems pretty physical considering it goes in flames if he is angry enough.

Oh the omnipotence support nlf, nice. I did not try to mean that, I meant the transcending infinitely to become more powerful. Something you should of gotten from that. Fair point there.

I brought 3812 up as he also is an infinite transcending guy, cosmology can also matter here. Some people can also see the lucifer being used as universal, reminder.

I said this cause you brought up concepts and the endless are such. Nonexistence in dc n vertigo is portrayed as the second most powerful or equal to the acclaimed “omnipotent” Presence. Or it is referred to as Darkness.

Ignore the wank part, we can see on this if others decide to read both parts.

You brought two random things up here, Hajun cannot die. Many beings below Hanun cannot die, be erased however yes. Also you are trying to shift to this even though I never said they were above all impossibility. You brought the infinite possibility up so I mentioned that thread so you can find that scan somebody posted since I am too lazy to. Above non-existence or darkness, I say this because DC continuously shows that darkness and nonexistence are equal, interp to think light is above, but dc and vertigo show them as equal. nonexistence and darkness are two concepts that Hajun infinitely transcends. Yes being the concept of death is very self explanitory, reasoning why beings like Reinhardt make it look like a joke. I mean like, Hajun hax should be battle applicable already. And the lesser feats too.

reminder that above all impossibility and possibility increases the verses cosmology higher than what many use.

It’s an nlf. An nlf 3812 also has. You have proved nothing yourself though? You sorta are doing what I am doing right now lol. Yes and also most of Dies Irae reality warping solos.

If you can think for yourself, do it now.

Yes, lesser beings are stated to resist infinite possibilities already.

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sultanhanhuma

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#40  Edited By sultanhanhuma

Lucifer destroys them easily, according to Dream of the Endless from Sandman he said the only more powerful being is the Creator himself (Presence) so there is no way hajun can do anything

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sultanhanhuma

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#41  Edited By sultanhanhuma

The Sandman tv show alone has been the most streamed show of all time and made more revenue than the entire history of anime and manga, and Lucifer is an antagonist there, he even fought Dream, Lucifer destroys shinzabanshoverse effortlesly

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brogokudestroys

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#42  Edited By brogokudestroys

You cannot be above all possibilities and exist. Even Lucifer can't. He's just immune to the manipulation of possibilities screwing him by negating it. Impossibilities are just that: impossibilities. They cannot exist. And if you are arguing that they do, then the franchise in question falls into Trivialism, and you seriously don't want that.”

Elder Scrolls does extended modal realism quite well, elder scrolls best fits all such stuff. And @seventhmoon you brought up the insults on me. Hajun and Lucifer have nothing to do with all possibility, to be above infinite however allows for a being ti be near omnipotent Hajun is more omnipotent than lucifer, and if Naraka is omnpipotent in dies irae, then it further just proves my points. I could also debunk omnipotent presence.

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SeventhMoon

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#43  Edited By SeventhMoon

@brogokudestroys: Yes, I actually think that the Basanos are a free range Destiny of the endless. They seeked a needed possibility to almost defeat Lucifer is all I meant.

That wasn't their possibility manipulation if memory serves, otherwise they could've immediately of brought it to the present without all of that prep. Fact is Lucifer can negate their manipulation of possibilities and they need prep with outside help to temporarily subdue him.

He still almost died though.

He didn't almost die if he is entirely beyond being claimed by Death. He was just subdued and couldn't take further action because his powers were backfiring on him, which is why he needed Elaine.

And his form seems pretty physical considering it goes in flames if he is angry enough.

Just because something looks physical doesn't always mean it is. His flames burned pages of Destiny's book.

Oh the omnipotence support nlf, nice.

Oh the fake fallacy invented and used by a bunch of nobodies, nice.

I brought 3812 up as he also is an infinite transcending guy, cosmology can also matter here.

Cosmology does not matter in the conventional sense you're thinking of. Ignoring the fact that others have brought up how you can't have infinite sized spaces being dwarfed by spaces infinitely bigger, there is absolutely no reason that this would be more relevant than reality warping power sets even if cosmology worked like that. The only relevance cosmology brings is to how it can relate to someone's power set. Clearly someone effecting a purely metaphysical cosmology is superior in reality warping deepness than someone who can only effect a physical cosmology. The size however does not matter.

Some people can also see the lucifer being used as universal, reminder.

That's ignoring all context and is blatantly wrong.

I said this cause you brought up concepts and the endless are such. Nonexistence in dc n vertigo is portrayed as the second most powerful or equal to the acclaimed “omnipotent” Presence. Or it is referred to as Darkness.

What? That's funny. Where in Vertigo is this mentioned? You talking about GEB? Non-existence cannot be more powerful than anything because it's non-existence. Anything claiming to be non-existence but exist goes against the notion of it not existing. Do you mean GEB? Please tell me you have better than that. That's not going too go well.

Ignore the wank part, we can see on this if others decide to read both parts.

Seems like you're committing a common belief fallacy.

You brought two random things up here, Hajun cannot die.

Provide evidence.

Many beings below Hanun cannot die

Provide evidence.

be erased however yes.

So they can die.

Also you are trying to shift to this even though I never said they were above all impossibility.

Looks like you did, but your grammar is hard to understand at times.

Above non-existence or darkness, I say this because DC continuously shows that darkness and nonexistence are equal, interp to think light is above, but dc and vertigo show them as equal.

Provide evidence, because I have a feeling what you're going to send is something you've horribly misinterpreted.

nonexistence and darkness are two concepts that Hajun infinitely transcends.

Provide evidence and context.

Yes being the concept of death is very self explanitory, reasoning why beings like Reinhardt make it look like a joke.

Provide evidence. Seriously, how hard is it to provide evidence? Here, look at me provide evidence for Death being unable to claim Lucifer.

No Caption Provided

See? Very simple. I understand not posting scans upon scans for every little argument you make in an initial comment, but when someone ask for scans, find them and send them. I will do the same if you request any.

I mean like, Hajun hax should be battle applicable already.

What hax?

And the lesser feats too.

What feats?

reminder that above all impossibility and possibility increases the verses cosmology higher than what many use.

No, a franchise claiming to contain all possibilities and impossibilities devolves into Trivialism, which claims that everything is true. That means if we take illogical claims at face value, the franchise in question stomps and gets stomped by all of fiction, since all impossibilities include the verse getting shit on by an ant. It means nothing beyond the franchise being unusable in a debate because it will always stomp and get stomped by the opposition because it inherently makes no sense and contains all impossibilities.

A cosmology that only contains all possibilities without the impossibilities crap is absolute infinity and very dangerous on the other hand due to the very nature of what all possibilities would entail.

It’s an nlf.

Fake unofficial term made by nobodies. You using it holds no more weight than me claiming you're using the nouenoiupwqngopuiq fallacy.

An nlf 3812 also has.

Again, take your 3812 wank somewhere else. He's not in this thread and he's not doing shit to Lucifer.

You have proved nothing yourself though? You sorta are doing what I am doing right now lol.

I'm trying to have a logical discussion. You're practicing your stand-up comedy routine. We are not the same. Check the example below.

Yes and also most of Dies Irae reality warping solos.

Solos what? Lucifer? Provide evidence.

If you can think for yourself, do it now.

Guy who is misusing set theory in the way almost everyone else does due to VS Wiki and is using popular fake terms made by others like NLF is asking me to think for myself. Take your own advice.

Yes, lesser beings are stated to resist infinite possibilities already.

Give me some goddamn evidence.

Elder Scrolls does extended modal realism quite well, elder scrolls best fits all such stuff.

Can you keep things contained to a single post? Extended Modal Realism falls flat in any debate for the reasons I already mentioned. And if you're arguing Shinzaverse may have such a thing, which you did seem to imply, that's not good for it at all.

And @seventhmoon you brought up the insults on me.

What do you mean? I didn't name call you if that's what you mean.

Hajun and Lucifer have nothing to do with all possibility, to be above infinite however allows for a being ti be near omnipotent Hajun is more omnipotent than lucifer,

"More omnipotent." No. All of this is incomprehensible babble that makes no sense and isn't coherent in the slightest.

I could also debunk omnipotent presence.

Oh yes. Yes. I've been waiting for this. I've been waiting for this the WHOLE time. Do it.

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thopples

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#44  Edited By thopples
@brogokudestroys said:

Elder Scrolls does extended modal realism quite well, elder scrolls best fits all such stuff. And @seventhmoon you brought up the insults on me. Hajun and Lucifer have nothing to do with all possibility, to be above infinite however allows for a being ti be near omnipotent Hajun is more omnipotent than lucifer, and if Naraka is omnpipotent in dies irae, then it further just proves my points. I could also debunk omnipotent presence.

The Presence's Omnipotence only gets wobbly (but not impossible) when Composite DC and this literally can change next month or the next, but in the Matteis canon and the Vertigo canon, and assuming a Composite pre-Monitor DC Cosmology, he is certainly Omnipotent.

Virtually all the anti-feats of the Presence can be eradicated away when we consider he almost destroyed all 3 Creations where it is revealed that any limitation of the Presence was a withholding limitation, nothing more, nothing less.

And since the Vertigo Presence is a Superior Hadou God with no anti-feats of being less real to the top-layer or being bound by the concept of raw power, and his Infinite power is unlimited, any God that scales power from the Presence like Lucifer easily murderstomps Shinzaverse by just appearing, just like how Lucifer destroyed the Mansions of SIlence Multiverses.

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mandabub

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Masadaverse will be erased from history.

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brogokudestroys

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@thopples said:
@brogokudestroys said:

Elder Scrolls does extended modal realism quite well, elder scrolls best fits all such stuff. And @seventhmoon you brought up the insults on me. Hajun and Lucifer have nothing to do with all possibility, to be above infinite however allows for a being ti be near omnipotent Hajun is more omnipotent than lucifer, and if Naraka is omnpipotent in dies irae, then it further just proves my points. I could also debunk omnipotent presence.

The Presence's Omnipotence only gets wobbly (but not impossible) when Composite DC and this literally can change next month or the next, but in the Matteis canon and the Vertigo canon, and assuming a Composite pre-Monitor DC Cosmology, he is certainly Omnipotent.

Virtually all the anti-feats of the Presence can be eradicated away when we consider he almost destroyed all 3 Creations where it is revealed that any limitation of the Presence was a withholding limitation, nothing more, nothing less.

And since the Vertigo Presence is a Superior Hadou God with no anti-feats of being less real to the top-layer or being bound by the concept of raw power, and his Infinite power is unlimited, any God that scales power from the Presence like Lucifer easily murderstomps Shinzaverse by just appearing, just like how Lucifer destroyed the Mansions of SIlence Multiverses.

My personal opinion is that he isn't, it's getting harder and harder to support him with recent dc. I understand how easy it can change, but the fact that it can be retconned over and over is the reason I disagree. Comp DC if it includes Vertigo is such a mess to scale.. I think if vertigo is separate presence can be omnipotent.

I go over the fact Presence has no actual anti feats and all those are forms, the only question I have is if darkness came before light and if they are equal or not. The main points I bring up for questioning.

Hadou Gods should not be bound to the concept of power at all? If Naraka is omnipotent, then hajun and luci stalemate. If presence is not omnipotent, I side with Hajun completely. Infinite power can mean so much in this instance.

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brogokudestroys

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@brogokudestroys: Yes, I actually think that the Basanos are a free range Destiny of the endless. They seeked a needed possibility to almost defeat Lucifer is all I meant.

That wasn't their possibility manipulation if memory serves, otherwise they could've immediately of brought it to the present without all of that prep. Fact is Lucifer can negate their manipulation of possibilities and they need prep with outside help to temporarily subdue him.

He still almost died though.

He didn't almost die if he is entirely beyond being claimed by Death. He was just subdued and couldn't take further action because his powers were backfiring on him, which is why he needed Elaine.

And his form seems pretty physical considering it goes in flames if he is angry enough.

Just because something looks physical doesn't always mean it is. His flames burned pages of Destiny's book.

Oh the omnipotence support nlf, nice.

Oh the fake fallacy invented and used by a bunch of nobodies, nice.

I brought 3812 up as he also is an infinite transcending guy, cosmology can also matter here.

Cosmology does not matter in the conventional sense you're thinking of. Ignoring the fact that others have brought up how you can't have infinite sized spaces being dwarfed by spaces infinitely bigger, there is absolutely no reason that this would be more relevant than reality warping power sets even if cosmology worked like that. The only relevance cosmology brings is to how it can relate to someone's power set. Clearly someone effecting a purely metaphysical cosmology is superior in reality warping deepness than someone who can only effect a physical cosmology. The size however does not matter.

Some people can also see the lucifer being used as universal, reminder.

That's ignoring all context and is blatantly wrong.

I said this cause you brought up concepts and the endless are such. Nonexistence in dc n vertigo is portrayed as the second most powerful or equal to the acclaimed “omnipotent” Presence. Or it is referred to as Darkness.

What? That's funny. Where in Vertigo is this mentioned? You talking about GEB? Non-existence cannot be more powerful than anything because it's non-existence. Anything claiming to be non-existence but exist goes against the notion of it not existing. Do you mean GEB? Please tell me you have better than that. That's not going too go well.

Ignore the wank part, we can see on this if others decide to read both parts.

Seems like you're committing a common belief fallacy.

You brought two random things up here, Hajun cannot die.

Provide evidence.

Many beings below Hanun cannot die

Provide evidence.

be erased however yes.

So they can die.

Also you are trying to shift to this even though I never said they were above all impossibility.

Looks like you did, but your grammar is hard to understand at times.

Above non-existence or darkness, I say this because DC continuously shows that darkness and nonexistence are equal, interp to think light is above, but dc and vertigo show them as equal.

Provide evidence, because I have a feeling what you're going to send is something you've horribly misinterpreted.

nonexistence and darkness are two concepts that Hajun infinitely transcends.

Provide evidence and context.

Yes being the concept of death is very self explanitory, reasoning why beings like Reinhardt make it look like a joke.

Provide evidence. Seriously, how hard is it to provide evidence? Here, look at me provide evidence for Death being unable to claim Lucifer.

No Caption Provided

See? Very simple. I understand not posting scans upon scans for every little argument you make in an initial comment, but when someone ask for scans, find them and send them. I will do the same if you request any.

I mean like, Hajun hax should be battle applicable already.

What hax?

And the lesser feats too.

What feats?

reminder that above all impossibility and possibility increases the verses cosmology higher than what many use.

No, a franchise claiming to contain all possibilities and impossibilities devolves into Trivialism, which claims that everything is true. That means if we take illogical claims at face value, the franchise in question stomps and gets stomped by all of fiction, since all impossibilities include the verse getting shit on by an ant. It means nothing beyond the franchise being unusable in a debate because it will always stomp and get stomped by the opposition because it inherently makes no sense and contains all impossibilities.

A cosmology that only contains all possibilities without the impossibilities crap is absolute infinity and very dangerous on the other hand due to the very nature of what all possibilities would entail.

It’s an nlf.

Fake unofficial term made by nobodies. You using it holds no more weight than me claiming you're using the nouenoiupwqngopuiq fallacy.

An nlf 3812 also has.

Again, take your 3812 wank somewhere else. He's not in this thread and he's not doing shit to Lucifer.

You have proved nothing yourself though? You sorta are doing what I am doing right now lol.

I'm trying to have a logical discussion. You're practicing your stand-up comedy routine. We are not the same. Check the example below.

Yes and also most of Dies Irae reality warping solos.

Solos what? Lucifer? Provide evidence.

If you can think for yourself, do it now.

Guy who is misusing set theory in the way almost everyone else does due to VS Wiki and is using popular fake terms made by others like NLF is asking me to think for myself. Take your own advice.

Yes, lesser beings are stated to resist infinite possibilities already.

Give me some goddamn evidence.

Elder Scrolls does extended modal realism quite well, elder scrolls best fits all such stuff.

Can you keep things contained to a single post? Extended Modal Realism falls flat in any debate for the reasons I already mentioned. And if you're arguing Shinzaverse may have such a thing, which you did seem to imply, that's not good for it at all.

And @seventhmoon you brought up the insults on me.

What do you mean? I didn't name call you if that's what you mean.

Hajun and Lucifer have nothing to do with all possibility, to be above infinite however allows for a being ti be near omnipotent Hajun is more omnipotent than lucifer,

"More omnipotent." No. All of this is incomprehensible babble that makes no sense and isn't coherent in the slightest.

I could also debunk omnipotent presence.

Oh yes. Yes. I've been waiting for this. I've been waiting for this the WHOLE time. Do it.

Lucifer can change fate, I can agree here.

Dying isn't the word, he was heavily weakened and beaten. The fact he needed Elaine shows how he is not very "all powerful"

You say a fake fallacy, and saying nobody doesn't use it which is hilarious. That is normally made fun of because of how dumb it is.

being erased and killed are different, lucifer can be erased two and your whole argument is very flawed with the fact Lucifer also says death will eventually claim him. Kinda hilarious how much a clown you are.

It is not fully ignoring context, considering the comics themselves say universes. The only reason people say higher is the author clarified they see it as the same.

I am mentioning both dc and vertigo, and dc has shown great darkness is meant to be non-existence, your very notion on this shows how ignorant you truly are. You are better than this!

It's not a fallacy, you the one making up fallacies lol and just keep spewing everything is a fallacy.

What I mean by "omnipotence support" btw is the fact people keep saying character a or b has a omnipotent power source, that is not how multiversal power scaling should fucking work because retards like you abuse the shit out of that and make's it impossible to have much argument if that's all you can say.

Fair point, I don't care to try in these threads.

What do you mean provide evidence? Do you mean send a scan of a man being darkness and nothing, death itself and then have it shown he's weak?

This one scan ;lol;, Lucifer also says he will eventually be taken by death. And my above? Death has claim on him, yes. But she is not more powerful. If you want the scan I can eventually find it.

Yes, so elder scrolls solos fiction upon trivialism. It getting stomped is still a stomp in it's favor. And with all possibilities comes stuff like Mathiverse.

an NLF is used by literally everybody, it means NO LIMITS FALLACY BECAUSE YOU ARE USING MORE THAN WHAT IS NEEDED. I am not wanking 3812, considering I do think Lucifer can beat 3812 in certain circumstances. Much like how Lucifer can beat Hajun in certain circumstances.

I straight up said Shinza doesn't have it? I can find the possibility stuff, I just need to find the rest. I only have 1 rn.

If you are the type of guy to say a char is nigh omnipotent, than more omnipotent is the same prattle and babble a little boy yourself would use.

Where should I start? With dc saying great darkness came before the light of the hand? The stalemate between presence and geb? Lucifer basically being equal to Presence? Elaine gaining powers of this acclaimed omnipotent when that is not how that works? The statement he is nigh omnipotent in a guidebook? The statements lucifer says where he is not omniscient more than he says he is? What will it be, spin your luck cuck.

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SeventhMoon

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#48  Edited By SeventhMoon

@brogokudestroys: Dying isn't the word, he was heavily weakened and beaten. The fact he needed Elaine shows how he is not very "all powerful"

He lost because he was hindered and compromised because his wings were sabotaged while he didn't have them. But you're right, he's not "all-powerful" because that means omnipotence.

You say a fake fallacy, and saying nobody doesn't use it which is hilarious. That is normally made fun of because of how dumb it is.

Can you not read? I said it is used by a bunch of nobodies, not that it is used by nobody.

being erased and killed are different,

No they aren't without additional context. They are both cause one to die under most circumstances. Erasure is just a more haxy metaphysical way.

lucifer can be erased two

But not entirely, consider he states Death has no claim on him. I'm sure someone out there could have the needed power set to erase him (and obviously an omnipotent can), but when at his peak, he can't fully die truly unless someone put those restrictions on him. Can Hajun do that? Not from what I've heard. And since he can't, assuming he could even erase Lucifer's main body, he would reform or "reinstate" himself as he puts it.

and your whole argument is very flawed with the fact Lucifer also says death will eventually claim him.

When? You do know he predated The Endless, right? The only way he could fall under their laws is if he is if he is depowered.

Kinda hilarious how much a clown you are.

Extended Modal Realism guy calling me a clown. Ironic.

It is not fully ignoring context, considering the comics themselves say universes. The only reason people say higher is the author clarified they see it as the same.

So when a fiction refers to something as a world, does it always mean it's just a planet? No. You'd have to ignore context.

I am mentioning both dc and vertigo, and dc has shown great darkness is meant to be non-existence, your very notion on this shows how ignorant you truly are. You are better than this!

Only care about Vertigo since the rest of DC can't keep itself even somewhat consistent. But even then, Thopples has mentioned counterarguments for the Presence not being omnipotent even in composite. And it doesn't matter if GEB is stated to be non-existent. Him existing is an anti-feat to that claim. It's just spooky metaphysical word salad.

It's not a fallacy, you the one making up fallacies lol and just keep spewing everything is a fallacy.

Except the fallacy I mentioned you committing is a real official logical fallacy.

What I mean by "omnipotence support" btw is the fact people keep saying character a or b has a omnipotent power source, that is not how multiversal power scaling should work because smart people like you abuse the shit out of that and make's it impossible to have much argument if that's all you can say.

It's ok buddy, let it all out.

Anyways, you're basically complaining with no reasoning behind your complaints. How SHOULD multiversal scaling work then? Extended Modal Realism? Bullshit cosmology tiering? Get real dude. People like you probably don't like the idea of omnipotent beings because that leaves no room to wank your preferred franchise higher than the opposition.

What do you mean provide evidence? Do you mean send a scan of a man being darkness and nothing, death itself and then have it shown he's weak?

Can't understand what you're trying to say here. I'm asking for evidence of the direct shit I quoted from you.

This one scan ;lol;, Lucifer also says he will eventually be taken by death. And my above? Death has claim on him, yes. But she is not more powerful. If you want the scan I can eventually find it.

Then get it and make sure to not purposely leave out context. How can Death have a claim on him if he predates her?

Yes, so elder scrolls solos fiction upon trivialism. It getting stomped is still a stomp in it's favor.

It getting stomped is it getting stomped. I'm just showing you why arguing for Extended Modal Realism isn't helping shit and not going to help Shinzaverse if you go down that route.

an NLF is used by literally everybody,

It is used by a bunch of nobodies debating fictional characters. This isn't an official fallacy and it's used incorrectly 90% of the time anyways.

it means NO LIMITS FALLACY BECAUSE YOU ARE USING MORE THAN WHAT IS NEEDED.

That's not even what it means.

I straight up said Shinza doesn't have it? I can find the possibility stuff, I just need to find the rest. I only have 1 rn.

Except it looked like you did when you first brought it up. But your grammar falls apart sometimes and it's hard to comprehend it, so Idk. Just show me that they can manipulate possibilities like the Basanos.

If you are the type of guy to say a char is nigh omnipotent, than more omnipotent is the same prattle and babble a little boy yourself would use.

This just goes to show you're incapable of grasping anything. Someone who is nigh-omnipotent can do almost anything, but have some restrictions, while an omnipotent has none. Above omnipotence is saying someone can do anything with no restrictions and more. Those are two entirely different things, with the latter making no sense.

Where should I start? With dc saying great darkness came before the light of the hand?

Which isn't the true Presence.

The stalemate between presence and geb?

There's different aspects of the Presence. His truest form created everything, including Lucifer.

Lucifer basically being equal to Presence?

Except he isn't.

Elaine gaining powers of this acclaimed omnipotent when that is not how that works?

Except that this falls under CD and Contingent Omnipotence. Both of which are different philosophical ideas on omnipotence that still fit the original definition of the word. It is fine for an omnipotent to willingly give away his power to another.

The statement he is nigh omnipotent in a guidebook?

That's been argued to be referring to an aspect of the Presence after the creation of existence, not the one who created it. Not to mention Lucifer also contradicts this. And it could easily be argued that this is referring to the Presence after he gave Elaine his powers. And I really only follow Vertigo as its own canon. Composite DC is a mess that can't even stay consistent to itself.

The statements lucifer says where he is not omniscient more than he says he is?

You don't have to be omniscient to be omnipotent. This is a common misunderstanding. You can technically do anything possible without knowing how to do it. You could say "Well why doesn't the omnipotent just give himself omniscience?" Well he'd have to know how to. Not to mention that in a setting where time works off potential future possibilities and not Eternalism, omniscience can't even see the one true future course because there is none.

I expected more from you on this last bit honestly. Thought you'd make some long detailed argument.

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brogokudestroys

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@brogokudestroys: Dying isn't the word, he was heavily weakened and beaten. The fact he needed Elaine shows how he is not very "all powerful"

He lost because he was hindered and compromised because his wings were sabotaged while he didn't have them. But you're right, he'd not "all-powerful" because that means omnipotence.

You say a fake fallacy, and saying nobody doesn't use it which is hilarious. That is normally made fun of because of how dumb it is.

Can you not read? I said it is used by a bunch of nobodies, not that it is used by nobody.

being erased and killed are different,

No they aren't without additional context. They are both cause one to die under most circumstances. Erasure is just a more haxy metaphysical way.

lucifer can be erased two

But not entirely, consider he states Death has no claim on him. I'm sure someone out there could have the needed power set to erase him (and obviously an omnipotent can), but when at his peak, he can't fully die truly unless someone put those restrictions on him. Can Hajun do that? Not from what I've heard. And since he can't, assuming he could even erase Lucifer's main body, he would reform or "reinstate" himself as he puts it.

and your whole argument is very flawed with the fact Lucifer also says death will eventually claim him.

When? You do know he predated The Endless, right? The only way he could fall under their laws is if he is if he is depowered.

Kinda hilarious how much a clown you are.

Extended Modal Realism guy calling me a clown. Ironic.

It is not fully ignoring context, considering the comics themselves say universes. The only reason people say higher is the author clarified they see it as the same.

So when a fiction refers to something as a world, does it always mean it's just a planet? No. You'd have to ignore context.

I am mentioning both dc and vertigo, and dc has shown great darkness is meant to be non-existence, your very notion on this shows how ignorant you truly are. You are better than this!

Only care about Vertigo since the rest of DC can't keep itself even somewhat consistent. But even then, Thopples has mentioned counterarguments for the Presence not being omnipotent even in composite. And it doesn't matter if GEB is stated to be non-existent. Him existing is an anti-feat to that claim. It's just spooky metaphysical word salad.

It's not a fallacy, you the one making up fallacies lol and just keep spewing everything is a fallacy.

Except the fallacy I mentioned you committing is a real official logical fallacy.

What I mean by "omnipotence support" btw is the fact people keep saying character a or b has a omnipotent power source, that is not how multiversal power scaling should work because smart people like you abuse the shit out of that and make's it impossible to have much argument if that's all you can say.

It's ok buddy, let it all out.

Anyways, you're basically complaining with no reasoning behind your complaints. How SHOULD multiversal scaling work then? Extended Modal Realism? Bullshit cosmology tiering? Get real dude. People like you probably don't like the idea of omnipotent beings because that leaves no room to wank your preferred franchise higher than the opposition.

What do you mean provide evidence? Do you mean send a scan of a man being darkness and nothing, death itself and then have it shown he's weak?

Can't understand what you're trying to say here. I'm asking for evidence of the direct shit I quoted from you.

This one scan ;lol;, Lucifer also says he will eventually be taken by death. And my above? Death has claim on him, yes. But she is not more powerful. If you want the scan I can eventually find it.

Then get it and make sure to not purposely leave out context. How can Death have a claim on him if he predates her?

Yes, so elder scrolls solos fiction upon trivialism. It getting stomped is still a stomp in it's favor.

It getting stomped is it getting stomped. I'm just showing you why arguing for Extended Modal Realism isn't helping shit and not going to help Shinzaverse if you go down that route.

an NLF is used by literally everybody,

It is used by a bunch of nobodies debating fictional characters. This isn't an official fallacy and it's used incorrectly 90% of the time anyways.

it means NO LIMITS FALLACY BECAUSE YOU ARE USING MORE THAN WHAT IS NEEDED.

That's not even what it means.

I straight up said Shinza doesn't have it? I can find the possibility stuff, I just need to find the rest. I only have 1 rn.

Except it looked like you did when you first brought it up. But your grammar falls apart sometimes and it's hard to comprehend it, so Idk. Just show me that they can manipulate possibilities like the Basanos.

If you are the type of guy to say a char is nigh omnipotent, than more omnipotent is the same prattle and babble a little boy yourself would use.

This just goes to show you're incapable of grasping anything. Someone who is nigh-omnipotent can do almost anything, but have some restrictions, while an omnipotent has none. Above omnipotence is saying someone can do anything with no restrictions and more. Those are two entirely different things, with the latter making no sense.

Where should I start? With dc saying great darkness came before the light of the hand?

Which isn't the Presence.

The stalemate between presence and geb?

There's different aspects of the Presence. His truest form created everything, including Lucifer.

Lucifer basically being equal to Presence?

Except he isn't.

Elaine gaining powers of this acclaimed omnipotent when that is not how that works?

Except that this falls under CD and Contingent Omnipotence. Both of which are different philosophical ideas on omnipotence that still fit the original definition of the word. It is fine for an omnipotent to willingly give away his power to another.

The statement he is nigh omnipotent in a guidebook?

That's been argued to be referring to an aspect of the Presence after the creation of existence, not the one who created it. Not to mention Lucifer also contradicts this. And I really only follow Vertigo as its own canon. Composite DC is a mess that can't even stay consistent to itself.

The statements lucifer says where he is not omniscient more than he says he is?

You don't have to be omniscient to be omnipotent. This is a common misunderstanding. You can technically do anything possible without knowing how to do it. You could say "Well why doesn't the omnipotent just give himself omniscience?" Well he'd have to know how to. Not to mention that in a setting where time works off potential future possibilities and not Eternalism, omniscience can't even see the one true future course because there is none.

I expected more from you on this last bit honestly. Thought you'd make some long detailed argument.

But, how is it used by nobodies? Basically all use it. Are you salty others have used it before?

Yes, which I would say Lucifer means by death claims all.

But that’s the thing, death herself has no claim. But death itself does. If we need images, ok. I will use on for now

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/900820789157318656/960354558020837396/IMG_1348.jpg

If it does not show the image, click on it. Idk how to send photos to the right argument I make. reason I barely send scans.

So your own bias showing. Nice about this “Irony”.

I also said Geb is darkness, not just nonexistence concept stuff.

How.. you are bringing omnipotent power sources, a real, actual fallacy..

But. I agree with omnipotent beings existing lol, you are insulting me over nothing here.. I scale verses not much anymore, just the ones I see as top like 3. The rest can be seen as whatever to me.

If I can get the scans and copy and paste them, I will be able go eventually. Sorry about all that.

Ok, he doesn’t predate death itself and his willpower isn not above hers.

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/900820789157318656/960356564567461918/IMG_1349.jpg

Sorry about next I post, it got cut for some reason

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/900820789157318656/960356810643103784/IMG_1350.jpg

no it used quite correctly a lot, and yes it does mean No limits fallacy… are you trolling me.. please stop trolling.

Before I send all those scans, I used discord to have them translated, but if you have a phone that can copy the Japanese texts to see for yourself, then tell me and I can send them.

ok the I said this argument is because I have dealt with people saying this and that is nigh omnipotent therefore it solos this and that. Just got to me and I have not debated in a sweet while.

Presence was outright stated the light and even disappeared when lucifer wanted to be erased, which also. Did happen.

I can actually agree to this for Vertigo, but if recent comes to shove for even vertigo, that may be false.

I disagree to this. I know it can still fall under actual omnipotence in a way, but that being just becomes another being of everything, the form it once had means nothing. It is quite illogical in that remark.

Lucifer himself has said Presence isn’t omnipotent or omniscient, which means not omnipotent.

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/900820789157318656/960359302122582026/IMG_1352.png

That doesn’t make sense then. If you are the creator of everything and still don’t know what you created, then you should not be an outright omnipotent. That sounds so silly.

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thenamelessone

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@destinyman75:

You also Showed your Obvious Biased in favor Of Magna, which Makes your Opinion Diluted to begin with. Many Magna people also are famous for Being over the top so grain of salt.

and you are obviously biased for comics so your opinion is diluted too right? Man , you can't even say manga and just say Magna

And In case you didn't notice this its COMIC VINE not Magna Vine. Just FWI.

such a point has been irrelevant for years lmao , manga is a well debated part of Comicvine.