Mr. Morrison has said that The Overvoid is God more than a few times, which is the page of the comic. The Flaw is DC Comics. Likewise, The Presence himself states he is a creation of the Dreams of others, which is paralleled in the bio for Earth 33.
Lucifer stands no chance against The Cosmic Armor, because the army that beat him when he was at his most powerful point, is the same army that couldn't dent Rox Ogama. Nobody in the world knows more about the Pax Dei than Grant Morrison. He created the Pax Dei.
@sleepygypsy: Then doesn't that mean humans on Earth Prime > the Overvoid? See the whole Grant Morrison idea is nice but makes zero sense. He makes the Overvoid "God" but gives it none of the attributes of a god. It just seems like a dumb clueless piece of paper. This is why omnipotent beings shouldn't be in these kinds of fictions, they retcon things consistently then defy the very definition then leave the readers scratching their heads wondering " What the hell was that?"
@raven_godking: see both things he said are wrong the author never stated the earth 33 humans dreamt up the presence him incerting that is strictly his opinion an isn't backed up by anything an he still ignores the only reason the host won the war with lucifer is because the presence backed them up. Many tines throughout his series he proved his superiority over them
You are citing this is a problem because you are adhering to what we know of religious views here on Earth. You are assuming incorrectly that Overvoid is required to be just like The Presence.
No, it doesn't. It is the sentient comic book page that authors used to write the fiction of The Presence on top of it and inside of. Monitor Mind doesn't have to reflect the traits of Yahwe at all. You can write a story on a piece of paper about the story of an Omnipotent God. When the napkin you just doodled that character on gains sentience, your narrative version of the Omnipotent God means "nothing" (another word for Nil) when the napkin decides to erase what you drew because you didn't ask it for permission.
@sleepygypsy: Then doesn't that mean humans on Earth Prime > the Overvoid? See the whole Grant Morrison idea is nice but makes zero sense. He makes the Overvoid "God" but gives it none of the attributes of a god. It just seems like a dumb clueless piece of paper. This is why omnipotent beings shouldn't be in these kinds of fictions, they retcon things consistently then defy the very definition then leave the readers scratching their heads wondering " What the hell was that?"
Nix Uotan is the entity that created DC Comics. Not the multiverse or Creation. But, the literal fictive publication canons of DC itself. How does Lucifer win against the entity who can one-shot the being who created the entire fictive publication of DC Comics? The Pax Dei could not touch Rox Ogama, who at the time had no powers, yet was still able to no-sell the team that who had one individual who almost defeated Lucifer by himself.
The Cosmic Armor, Mandrakk and Monitor's are beings that reside beyond Comic Book Limbo. Lucifer cannot ever visit retcon itself where Merryman is. That place is Meta. It is where Lucifer gets stuck in forever when Grant or Gaiman retcon him and write new versions of him into canon.
Tell you what when monitors get actual feats bring them back they have almost none. Nix didn't create dc comics in context to what you said grant says he dreamt dc up as in reference to the multiverse cool dream can do that bruh. The pax beat lucifer because it was planned for lucifer to lose when lucifer brought Michael to his gate to detonate his brother the host were scared an said if they don't do as he says michaels power will be unleashed an theyre will be nothing left lucifer has beat Gabriel when both were powerless. An even beat amenidal the other angels were gonna rule lucifer a cheater an kill him but he got his powers back an then they knew they couldnt touch him. Lucifer went to the silver city multiple times an the host didnt bother trying to toss him out btw using Gabriel is a horrid example as he is supposed to be apart of the bothers. You show a scan where it looks like only 1 angel attacks roxs if youd even call it that an claim rox no selled the whole army lol this is a no go gg. Also you claim there being 2 limbo dispite there only being one referenced on the map an its a fact he went past that gg
Lucifer was defeated by just Gabriel alone and his entire army was obliterated by the Pax Dei. Read issue 75 of Lucifer.
This entire army couldn't put a dent in Rox Ogama. This is the best feat anyone can ask for. The idea that Lucifer can defeat the person who dreams DC Comics is quite laughable.
Lol Gabriel is supposted to be same level as his to brothers thanks to that retcon states it literally in the same issue like a. Few pages before. An yes it was a retcon in case people were wondering originally throughout the series it was just Lucy an Mikey who created the multiverse but in issue 75 Carey decided to incert Gabriel as a third brother that the presence created alongside lucifer an Michael his role was to imprint planets. next that fight was inconclusive. Next again Gabriel was backed in that fight. an in the Constantine movie when he wasn't lucifer wrecked him an in his 2016 he beat Gabriel who was asked by the presence to eliminate him Gabriel was give equipment to specifically kill lucifer
an he failed against a powerless lucifer lol. An again lol it looks like only 1 regular angel attacked rox that says jack.
Here is Cosmic Armor poking his finger into the same Retcon you are speaking of. Show us Lucifer leaving DC Comics and peering back into the place his own author sends his retcon. The argument that Lucifer reigns above DC and Vertigo Comics Limbo is absurd and silly.
He already did leave creation limbo is at the edge bruh showed him leaving creation tons of times an yea originally it was lucifer an Michael who where said to have created the multiverse in that story carey incerted Gabriel as a third brother only in that issue an in lucifers newest series its hinted that he had no brother to help him do what he did.
DC Creation exists below Limbo. "Manifest DC ends at Limbo". You truly believe that the Creation of The Presence extends all the way past DC Meta-retcon? You don't seem to understand the difference between "those who created the Multiverse of DC in the narrative"
and
"those who created the fiction of DC.
Can you do me a favor and re-type out the last small few sentences in this article? I need to confirm you are able to read and also actually interested in reading evidence against you. It seems you don't care for facts in the slightest or what these interviews say. Just type out the very last few lines in this snapshot for me. Not a big request.
It says right here, someone drew the fiction of DC on Monitor Mind without its permission and the pages got upset by it. Do you really think Lucifer > the page? Where is your evidence that Lucifer > the person who dreams DC fiction up and who draws DC fiction on Monitor Mind?
He already did leave creation limbo is at the edge bruh showed him leaving creation tons of times an yea originally it was lucifer an Michael who where said to have created the multiverse in that story carey incerted Gabriel as a third brother only in that issue an in lucifers newest series its hinted that he had no brother to help him do what he did.
Limbo was stated to be the last outpost of existence last outpost of the multiverse. Destiny garden is the highest point he holds the multiverse lucifer when an left all of this. Already posted that. Perpetua can manipulate the overvoid an so far from issue 39 of JL she doesn't em seem to be more powerful than the quintessence. An in some instances lucifer has manipulated the void aka overvoid. An cool in nixs story he dreamt up the multiverse. Which we would only know because of a statement dream has created a copy of the multiverse an shaped it but is less than Lucy gg
Limbo was stated to be the last outpost of existence last outpost of the multiverse.
Incorrect. It clearly states they left the Multiverse entirely.
Destiny garden is the highest point he holds the multiverse
Incorrect. The Pax Dei Angels fly out of the Silver City and bypass Destiny's Garden and arrive in The Dreaming in Sandman: Season of Mist. You cannot adhere to Vertigo Cosmology and then fully ignore this here.
lucifer when an left all of this.
No, he didn't. The Pax Dei state The Presence resides in the Silver City and Lucifer never breached the Source Wall in Sandman: Lucifer. He has not met the Source, doesn't know what the Source is.
Already posted that. Perpetua can manipulate the overvoid an so far from issue 39 of JL she doesn't em seem to be more powerful than the quintessence.
The DC writers and Nix Uotan manipulate the Overvoid, why is this an amazing feat for you? The authors drew on Overvoid without its permission. Many Creators exist that use its platform to generate their own Creations. This is a non-issue and not relevant at all. These creations were not approved of by Overvoid. What happened to DC's Flaw when Overvoid noticed someone drew on it without permission?
Again, I asked you to type out the last bit here. Why are you refusing to do so? Is it because it shuts down your entire argument if you acknowledge what this text says? I think so.
An in some instances lucifer has manipulated the void aka overvoid.
The Overvoid doesn't exist in Vertigo. The Void you speak of is the Void of The Presence, where he laid his Creation and Lucifers inside of. You mistake this as Monitor Mind when Monitor Mind didn't know why someone drew DC fiction on it. Your argument is factually incorrect here.
An cool in nixs story he dreamt up the multiverse.
Incorrect. He dreams up DC Comics. Not the Orrery. He dreams the fiction. You are altering facts to suit your agenda.
Which we would only know because of a statement dream has created a copy of the multiverse an shaped it but is less than Lucy gg
GG, Dream created the Orrery over again and Nix created Dream of the Endless, Lucifer and The Presence when he dreamed up DC Comics.
Despite you posting scans that say its apart of existence an the map says its the last reach of dc.
Where in that image do the angels by pass Destinys garden. It says the silver city isn't heaven which was changed an it was not created with the order of things correct it wasn't still apart of presences creation. An Destiny still has angels written in his book including Michael an such.
Yes the presence does live in the silver city you are aware he existed before it right an he created it after the brothers yes?. Last part is only your opinion.
Nix manipulating the void isn't very impressive though at least not to me lots of characters have that same claim, an why would I need to in that same scan grant calls the page the void.
Im not talking of vertigos void I'm talking about ground zero cosmology wise thats what Lucy called it aka the void aka the overvoid.
No im not twisting anything grant says in your scan he dreamt dc comics an in reference to the map of the MULTIVERSE he dreamt up the multiverse in his story. Not the company.
Proof that dream only did the orrey seems kinda weird for a dude who reshaped Destinys book aka the multiverse
@y3kthunder You said Limbo and Nil are part of the Multiverse. Here are Monitors saying otherwise and that it's not.
Here is the comic saying that Creation is composed of this Orrery that Darkseid broke and Monitors exist beyond it, unaffected by it.
You've not been accurate at all with your responses. The Multiverse and Creation are part of The Flaw. Nix Uotan dreams this Flaw into existence. You are saying Lucifer can beat the person who dreamed him and The Presence into being.
ChaseKilleen and Alkalimetal both insist the Source is heaven for New Gods. So here is Nix Uotan remaking the New Gods and letting them guide their new 5th World. You say Nix Uotan yanked them out of the Source? That means you have agreed Nix Uotan has more power than The Source. Which he does, by the way.
You've both unknowingly agreed that Monitors are stronger than Lucifer by saying what you have said today.
According to the new JL nil is apart of the universal structure just on a much higher plane so yea it is that aside. Youve posted the scan limbo still exists its the last outpost Destinys realm is the highest point in existence its further than limbo. He holds all of existence. Thats what I'm saying.
Yes exactly monitors just live on higher plane of the structure so no they wouldn't be affected by it. Would a man in space be affect by a bomb going of on the earth?
Yes in his story he dreamt the multiverse.no no where does it state he dreamt the presence or lucifer it dreamt up dc aka the multiverse.
According to the new JL nil is apart of the universal structure just on a much higher plane so yea it is that aside.
Ok, so you are selecting other canons? You don't select other canons in Pre-Retcon Beyonder threads, do you? When the battle is Pre-Retcon Beyonder vs someone else, you don't rush in and say "Beyonder in this new version did this, so that means Pre-Retcon beyonder can't win!" This is a nosensical argument and you are scared to talk about the specific events shown in Final Crisis.
Nobody goes into Silver Age threads for a Superman vs thread and then says "But Golden age or N52 Superman did this or couldn't do this! So that means Silver Age Superman can't!!!"
That is your argument and its irrelevant.
Youve posted the scan limbo still exists its the last outpost Destinys realm is the highest point in existence its further than limbo. He holds all of existence. Thats what I'm saying.
Incorrect. The Author of the Cosmic Map himself said Destiny of the Endless is not depicted on the map. You know this already and refuse to accept any factual data that undoes your entire argument. You present your own "facts" in place of them.
Not even stated once or twice
But Three times. He reiterated that is NOT Destiny of the Endless THREE TIMES. You say otherwise. Your argument is invalid.
Yes exactly monitors just live on higher plane of the structure so no they wouldn't be affected by it. Would a man in space be affect by a bomb going of on the earth?
They are outside of Comic Book retcon. They are not part of the Multiverse. You said they were. I provided you scans of them saying they are not part of Creation or the Multiverse of the Orrrey and now you are trying to change the subject and refuse to acknowledge your error. The DC Orrery is the entire DC Fiction. Dreamed by a Monitor.
The Multiverse and Creation inside that Orrery is made by the Presence, Lucifer, and Michael. All of which are dreams of Nix Uotan. Confirmed in Final Crisis: The Essential Edition.
Yes in his story he dreamt the multiverse.no no where does it state he dreamt the presence or lucifer it dreamt up dc aka the multiverse.
DC Comics was dreamed into existence by a Monitor. The Endless and Silver City are all listed below Nil. Comic Book retcon exists above The Presence. Show me where Lucifer talks about DC Comics, holds DC Comics and can alter the canon of DC Comics as Monitors did.
What does that have to do with the nil being on a much higher plane than the rest of the multiverse its not like im saying the properties are changed or hell even the placement. Just that it got confirmed to be apart of the structure.
Again in overture its stated his realm is the loom aka highest point in which existence is woven stated multiple times he holds all existence. In overture he is shown beyond the multiverse an apart of it what that author said is correct he is still there metaphorically mean his reach is still that far.
No what I said is theyre apart of the structure on a higher plane. Seperate from the orrey get it right.
You don't understand what the void is do you? Its infinite blank canvas all things are created an float on or in it. Nil is no different it is just higher than the rest of things nix dreamt up dc comics as in the multiverse per the map not the company. Plenty of people have this claim.
What does that have to do with the nil being on a much higher plane than the rest of the multiverse its not like im saying the properties are changed or hell even the placement. Just that it got confirmed to be apart of the structure.
Nil is outside the comic book and past the author's retcon. What are you talking about?
Again in overture its stated his realm is the loom aka highest point in which existence is woven stated multiple times he holds all existence. In overture he is shown beyond the multiverse an apart of it what that author said is correct he is still there metaphorically mean his reach is still that far.
The author said three times it's not Destiny of the Endless.
No what I said is theyre apart of the structure on a higher plane. Seperate from the orrey get it right.
Nil isn't in the comic narrative. Yahwe is.
You don't understand what the void is do you? Its infinite blank canvas all things are created an float on or in it.
Only Yahwe's creations float in it. Yahwe didn't create Nil or the Overvoid. Yahwe's void isn't the comic page. Do you think it is?
Nil is no different it is just higher than the rest of things
Correct. It is the highest place there is, past the source wall, in the Overvoid space. What is the Overvoid again? If you would just copy over that small amount of text...
nix dreamt up dc comics as in the multiverse per the map not the company. Plenty of people have this claim.
It clearly says DC Comics both in that statement and that Limbo is the end of DC Comics on the Map. Monitors clearly say the Multiverse of the Flaw and its Creation is where Darkseid ended up falling through. You are altering the facts to suit your preference.
An what you trying to say superbly can beat them?
Are you not aware that Superboy Prime is from Earth 33, the place where the authors in the narrative are from and that Monitors are still above that point? Are you saying Lucifer is outside of the comic book? Where is your proof?
Lucifer doesn't even know he is a fiction. Prove to me he has feats of talking about DC Canon, holding his own comic book and knowing about the same type of hierarchy that Superboy Prime does. Provide comparable statements from Lucifer that compare to someone from Earth - 33
Even the guidebook says Earth - 33 is the focal point for the entire Orrery and that the dreams of this Earth make realities in the Orrery.
Lucifer doesnt know he is fiction despite his father saying that he was shaped by external forces that lucifer knows what they're. that Carey told us were us an it couldn't be from the multiverse as he predates those humans an predates dream
We are Earth 33 in this story. Not only did the guidebook say it, but the author also said it and the comics have said it too recently with reference to the Prime universe, the center as Mar Novu called it.
Overvoid is the comic page. Lucifer is the printed text on the page and so is the Presence. Both are dreamed into being by Nix Uotan. Your argument is concluded.
Lucifer doesnt know he is fiction despite his father saying that he was shaped by external forces that lucifer knows what they're. that Carey told us were us an it couldn't be from the multiverse as he predates those humans an predates dream
You dont get what im saying Carey didn't say the earth 33 humans dreamt them he said we make our own gods nowhere does he mention earth 33 you'll need to prove that he was talking about earth 33
You'll need to prove Lucifer can wrap around and contain entire fictions of DC Comics and the other canons of Vertigo.
What happens when the page gets pissed off that someone drew on it but has one week prep time to come up with a way to defeat the text printed on itself? Lucifer and his entire canon cease to be, that's what happens. You've been dodging this for 3 days with me. How does the ink beat the page? How does your text box beat this website if it were sentient and pissed off at you for writing on it?
You dont get what im saying Carey didn't say the earth 33 humans dreamt them he said we make our own gods nowhere does he mention earth 33 you'll need to prove that he was talking about earth 33
@sleepygypsy: It has nothing to do with religious views. In any story were the supposed "supreme god" of said world they are supposed to have all 3 of the big O's look at Marvel TOAA etc etc
No. A God does not have to automatically have knowledge of everything if it opts not to. You are assuming it does. If you type a short paragraph about an Omnipotent Omniscient God right here in this text box, what does your text narrative version of that character do when Comic Vine notices you posted it and is very upset with you not asking for permission to type that on its text box?
Your Big O's character means nothing to the medium it is printed and typed into. Not one thing. The layer of Meta over Omnipotence shuts down the Omnipotence. Omnipotence is not an automatic win over any Meta above it.
@sleepygypsy: It has nothing to do with religious views. In any story were the supposed "supreme god" of said world they are supposed to have all 3 of the big O's look at Marvel TOAA etc etc
@sleepygypsy: I said supreme god, look at Odin both norse and marvel he doesn't know everything. Meta does not shut down omnipotence. Meta is a bunch of what if's and questions, omnipotence takes those questions and balls it up and throws it out the window. It has no rules to follow cause it makes the rules.
If I wrote a narrative like the text box would do nothing but follow what I wrote whether or not it was upset, since it is part of that universe and it only exists cause it is allowed to so it has to follow the rules that is set
Meta is when you type in this text box and create a fictional narrative of an Omnipotent God having infinite understanding and powers. Then, the CV forum mod comes in and deletes your comment.
That is literally what Superman Beyond is about. The Omnipotent character of The Presence was overruled by the comic book page he is written on. Meta 100% undoes Omnipotent narratives. Your definition of what Meta is here, is not correct in the context of what Final Crisis's end was about.
@sleepygypsy: I said supreme god, look at Odin both norse and marvel he doesn't know everything. Meta does not shut down omnipotence. Meta is a bunch of what if's and questions, omnipotence takes those questions and balls it up and throws it out the window. It has no rules to follow cause it makes the rules
@sleepygypsy: That is the mods not the text box, meaning the text box is powerless this proves the Presence is greater. If I were to go into DC right now make a story where the Overvoid is shown to powerless it is powerless by the rules it must follow unless another writer comes and undoes what I wrote. If the Overvoid is a powerful as you make it out to be why not destroy the DC universe? Simple it can't unless the writer allows it to.
Overvoid contains our "real world" in this narrative. It contains the writer and author of DC. If you were to dive into to comic, just like Nix Uotan did in The Multiversity, directly diving into the fiction of DC comics from outside of it, then you would be in the realm of fictive publications that Nix Uotan created.
Uotan created the Omnipotent God you are speaking of. He made this fiction. Nil Monitors are stronger than Uotan. CAS and Mandrakk oneshot the council that oneshotted Nix.
Your "going into DC" reference is out of context. As per this narrative, the Overvoid contains fictions. All of them.
@sleepygypsy: That is the mods not the text box, meaning the text box is powerless this proves the Presence is greater. If I were to go into DC right now make a story where the Overvoid is shown to powerless it is powerless by the rules it must follow unless another writer comes and undoes what I wrote.
Scan provided that says the Presence is not God, Ovevoid is = Ignored fully by many, the reverse is stated by users in that Lucifer is stronger because he is second to God.
Scan provided to show that Mandrakk is the Overvoid = Ignored fully by many.
Scan provided that says Nix Uotan is Grant Morrisons Avatar = Ignored fully by many
Scan provided that says Nix Uotan not only dreams DC fiction into being, but also that he is beyond all of the Gods of DC = Ignored fully and taken in reverse, in that the DC Gods are surely beyond him
This is the level of response here, it isn't based on taking a moment to read the data. It is entirely based on favoritism, bias, preference and subjective opinion. This isn't a debate, this is a collection of comments about who likes which character more.
@sleepygypsy: Key phrase "Probably did" Morrison didn't say "Yea he did" and plus he said comic not all DC comics, going back to your Earth 33 moment if all of the comics come from there that means we are more powerful than Overvoid and it bends to our will so if we say the Presence is above all and nothing comes close to him then for DCU that is law unless it is changed by someone else. Just because the Overvoid is the canvas does not mean it is the most powerful if there's nothing to show for it
He literally dove into DC Comics from his bedroom in The Multiversity.
Ultra Comics is us, by the way. The entire collective minds of Readers. Nil Monitors shut him down. Mandrakk and CAS oneshot Nil Monitors. Overvoid is Mandrakk. As per this narrative, what you are saying is not factually correct.
You are correct here though, The Presence is the strongest "IN DC". Your issue there? Monitors are from outside of the DC fiction and wrote the DC fiction.
Overvoid is the sentient canvass, you are acting like it just non-sentience.
I can't keep posting the same scans over and over only to have this many users fully ignore and interpret in their own subjective way. Its totally fine if you want to interpret this in your own way. I am not debating subjective opinion. I am debating what the author stated clear as a bell. Your statements here, Raven, are the polar opposite of what the author explains in these snaps of his interviews. The literal opposite.
This will be my last response here, we can debate in PM's if you wish, but I've posted these scans more than once here and to have this many users flat out insist they say the opposite of what they do, is something I have no interest in publically debating further.
@sleepygypsy: Key phrase "Probably did" Morrison didn't say "Yea he did" and plus he said comic not all DC comics, going back to your Earth 33 moment if all of the comics come from there that means we are more powerful than Overvoid and it bends to our will so if we say the Presence is above all and nothing comes close to him then for DCU that is law unless it is changed by someone else. Just because the Overvoid is the canvas does not mean it is the most powerful if there's nothing to show for it
@sleepygypsy: So tell me if the Monitors are not part of DC where else have they been seen? Marvel? Dragon Ball? Spawn? God of War? And if Earth 33 is our earth and it is part of the Overvoid, then by GM's on rules we are greater than OV since we wrote on that said canvas.
I am acting like it is sentient and it still has rules to follow. This whole argument just proves how dumb the idea of the comic is. And its not just this the same goes for Thanos Infinity Ending same thing there. When you start going from fiction to meta stuff it just makes no sense. Look at the Beyonders they are outside of the Marvel universe but still apart of it. That is written in a way that makes you understand them and the Marvel Universe as a whole
@sleepygypsy: So tell me if the Monitors are not part of DC where else have they been seen? Marvel? Dragon Ball? Spawn? God of War? And if Earth 33 is our earth and it is part of the Overvoid, then by GM's on rules we are greater than OV since we wrote on that said canvas.
Are you baiting me? I just gave you a scan from the author himself that said they are in Image comics too, that's Spawn. Marvel was cited too.
@sleepygypsy: I dont see anything about them being an Image Marvel. And I am reading the scans, it looks to me you are using your the one using your own interruptions. And just because Morrison says they are means nothing the Monitors must physically appear in those companies' stories or at least be mentioned.
@sleepygypsy: I dont see anything about them being an Image Marvel. And I am reading the scans, it looks to me you are using your the one using your own interruptions. And just because Morrison says they are means nothing the Monitors must physically appear in those companies' stories or at least be mentioned.
@sleepygypsy: Again if no appearance or mention his point is meaningless. Jason Aaron could say earth 2 is somehow connected to Asgard but if DC doesn't verify it doesn't matter
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