Lucifer Morningstar Vs Beyonder

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DamnINeedABreak

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Poll: Lucifer Morningstar Vs Beyonder (119 votes)

Lucifer Morningstar 71%
Beyonder 29%

The Morningstar Vs The Omnipotent One

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OnlyOneEmpereor

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Lucifer stomps.

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etriel

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#403  Edited By etriel

Lucifer wields a chunk of the Presence's power, a being who dreams Universes and Multiverses into existence. Lucifer perceives any concept of infinity and mathematics time space as an inferior concept to himself.

Lucifer is effectively immune to all of Beyonder's moves. Including his Shakeyversal and "remove 99% of my power to erase a concept" power.

Lucifer stomps.

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Yasindermann

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@etriel said:

Shakeyversal

Is that a new tier you gave to Beyonder? LOL.

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etriel

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@etriel said:

Shakeyversal

Is that a new tier you gave to Beyonder? LOL.

Beyonder's power is to move a Multiverse up and down and shake it. Like how one shakes a bag of Fries with Cheese Powder.

Marvel fans hate my "fancy" words so I instead made words DESIGNED to describe a Multiversal feat from Marvel as literal as possible so that nobody can claim I am bullshitting.

I didn't lie. Beyonder's best feat IS Shakeyversal.

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Yasindermann

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@etriel said:
@yasindermann said:
@etriel said:

Shakeyversal

Is that a new tier you gave to Beyonder? LOL.

Beyonder's power is to move a Multiverse up and down and shake it. Like how one shakes a bag of Fries with Cheese Powder.

Marvel fans hate my "fancy" words so I instead made words DESIGNED to describe a Multiversal feat from Marvel as literal as possible so that nobody can claim I am bullshitting.

I didn't lie. Beyonder's best feat IS Shakeyversal.

Just found the name funny. That's all. But yeah, it's his best feat.

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MichaelJulius

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#407  Edited By MichaelJulius
No Caption Provided

The Beyonder objectively lacks the feats to compare.

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ProfessorRespect

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Beyonder wins tbh

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Iflated3go

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TheAnimal666

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#410  Edited By TheAnimal666

Mike Carey is saying that Lucifer created one single reality for people not understanding what it means.

A Reality is the collection of an Earth-like universe and all other realms associated with that universe. For example, in general, there is one Negative Zone, one Asgard, and one Dark Dimension associated with each Earth universe. The collection of all associated realms is a Reality. Further changes to the history of a realm will alter its reality. In most cases, this actually involves overlapping or merging one reality with another. See below for further discussion on altered realities.

Lucifer created a single reality, he cannot compare with Beyonder.

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MichaelJulius

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#411  Edited By MichaelJulius

1. Lucifer:

Can make a Multiverse including "all the trimmings and extra dimensions involved" - ✓

Multiverse shaping all on his own, a feat comparable to The Presence - ✓

Pre-dates all physics and reality - ✓

Has powers that override infinite Imagination - ✓

Is one of the most cunning and witty fictional characters in existence who can convince other deities to commit suicide- ✓

Neigh Omniscient - ✓

Withstood a Multiversal level attack - ✓

Can erase concepts from existence with ease - ✓

2. The Beyonder

Can make a Multiverse including "all the trimmings and extra dimensions involved" - X

Multiverse shaping all on his own, a feat comparable to The Presence - X

Pre-dates all physics and reality - X

Has powers that override infinite Imagination - X

Is one of the most cunning and witty fictional characters in existence who can convince other deities to commit suicide- X

Neigh Omniscient - X

Withstood a Multiversal level attack - ✓ (Maybe)

Can erase concepts from existence with ease - X

"BEYONDER > LUCIFER!" - TheAnimal666

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Stezzy

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@etriel said:
@yasindermann said:
@etriel said:

Shakeyversal

Is that a new tier you gave to Beyonder? LOL.

Beyonder's power is to move a Multiverse up and down and shake it. Like how one shakes a bag of Fries with Cheese Powder.

Marvel fans hate my "fancy" words so I instead made words DESIGNED to describe a Multiversal feat from Marvel as literal as possible so that nobody can claim I am bullshitting.

I didn't lie. Beyonder's best feat IS Shakeyversal.

>Beyonder can only shake a multiverse

He literally destroys alternative universes just by existing during his debut lol. Show me Lucifer doing anything even remotely impressive.

No Caption Provided

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Y3kthunder

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@stezzy: https://i.imgur.com/DfR59jN.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/GS0HhI4.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/8NyxyGs.jpg

there you go easily countered

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CaoCao

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Stezzy

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@y3kthunder: You want to give me the context here? The scans don't even make sense in the order you posted them

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Y3kthunder

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@stezzy: basically Elaine lucifers niece soul got stolen lucifer hired people to go get her from the mansions of silence which hold infinite mirriors each mirror held countless failed creations an universes. Once lucifer was done with business else where he went to the mansions which were not built to support his presence so they got erased

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Stezzy

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#417  Edited By Stezzy

@y3kthunder: He says the structures of the universes were fragile which would explain why they're referred to as "rejected universes" so they aren't even actual universes and can't be scaled to them. The same exact thing would have happened if Beyonder went there too.

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Y3kthunder

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#418  Edited By Y3kthunder

@stezzy: they were universes though just cause there rejected or failed doesnt mean much the dark multiverse holds failed universes to its explicitly stated so. They were fragile to him. Honestly know way of knowing how they would've acted if beyonder was there thats your opinion not saying your wrong but its a more impressive feat than shaking a multiverse

Again lucifer explicitly states they were not built to support his presence which is why they got erased or why he called them fragile. The mansions had a god of there own. So there isn't a way to tell what other kind of beings it could or couldnt hold I mean heck lokis cousin was with them an it didnt blow up he's a god

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TheAnimal666

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@michaeljulius: Errf your answer is full of made-up stuff like usual.

I'm debating the characters, not your fancannon.

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MichaelJulius

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#420  Edited By MichaelJulius

People skim scans and dont read them, so I'll manually type this out so others can see there is not a single word of Multiversal destruction here:

"In a galaxy so distance that its light will not read the milky way ujntil long after planet earth has been reduced to cosmic ash, the one from Beyond stands...and ponders the fate of this many layered universe. Should he wipe it clean? Erase it, and leave it as barren and lifeless as the one in which he once dwelled? Or, continue his seemingly futile question to find peace with the realm of existence? Suns Implode! Worlds Colide, parallel dimensions collapse upon themselves. And yet, this is only the beginning."

Not a single line anywhere here that says he can warp, generate, remake and undo the entire Infinite Multiverse. They are only here to censor the text and scans and actually think you are dumb enough to look at the pretty colors and get confused enough to not read the text.

No Caption Provided

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Money_Brings_Happiness

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Beyonder is a beast and can solo like 94 percent of fiction but Lucifer is just better Beyonder is multiversal and can affect things on that scale its just that when it comes down to feats lucifer has him beat. Beyonder was able to completely shake the multiverse and he was able to destroy an army of celestials and erase a concept from existence. But lucifer was able to create a multiverse and he has shown that he can create and erase concepts also. While I don't think Lucifer can just blink Beyonder from existence as even after Beyonder erased Death it he was still stated to be powerful enough to erase all the other multiversal beings and concepts even afterwards which shows he can erase concepts pretty easily and he could tank multiversal attacks Lucifer does win the fight comfortably. Creating a Multiverse especially one as large as DC is just to much for Beyonder to overcome.

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MichaelJulius

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The Beyonder never erased the concept of Death. He erased the Embodiment of Death and it took almost all of his power to do so. It locked out the afterlife realms and granted some resemblance of Immortality to everyone. Everyone still knew and understood what Death was as a concept. The living embodiment of it was destroyed.

This isn't like The Beyonder erased the literal idea of Death. He erased the physical manifestation of it and it almost wiped out his entire power to do so.

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TheAnimal666

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#423  Edited By TheAnimal666

Lucifer created one single reality with Michael's power...

There is nothing he can do against Beyonder...

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MichaelJulius

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In DC Comics, each individual in Heaven has his own equivalent Multiverse as part of their personal afterlife. Lucifer made not only the base applications for his own creation, but he also destroyed untold numbers of mirror realities and also made sure to create the same infinite set of Multiverses inside of his own creation.

Not one reality. A lot.

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Yasindermann

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#425  Edited By Yasindermann

@michaeljulius said:

In DC Comics, each individual in Heaven has his own equivalent Multiverse as part of their personal afterlife. Lucifer made not only the base applications for his own creation, but he also destroyed untold numbers of mirror realities and also made sure to create the same infinite set of Multiverses inside of his own creation.

Not one reality. A lot.

This is something we both can totally agree on. Lucifer is multiversal. No argument can be made against it.

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TheAnimal666

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#426  Edited By TheAnimal666
Lucifer created one single reality with Michael's power...
Lucifer created one single reality with Michael's power...

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Y3kthunder

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@theanimal666: https://i.imgur.com/B8OibR0.jpg that the fact that its stated multiple times that vertigo has infinite timelines mean infinite universes sxan above proves a megaverse https://i.imgur.com/KqcfBli.jpg proves that he crossed multiple multiverses hell its would have to be a multiverse to contain all bad souls. Dreaming would have to be for all that can dream has its own seperate universe in the dreaming near identical to the main. The mansions of silence held infinite rejected creations an universes the presence has been credited for making the dc multiverse since the 40s an its revealed that lucifer was his tool as well as Michael. Death stated there was more than one universe you know I could go on but I think you get the point yes?

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Y3kthunder

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@theanimal666: hell someone with a shadow copy of notes from destinies book could affect infinite universes an lucifer scales far above that calling lucifer universe is a massive low ball the demiguric was what spawned the multiverse an thats what he used to create his multiverse soooo.

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TheAnimal666

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#429  Edited By TheAnimal666

@y3kthunder: Mike Carey explicitly described the term as the equivalent for "reality".

There is no ambiguities about it.

Definition of one single reality:

A Reality is the collection of an Earth-like universe and all other realms associated with that universe. For example, in general, there is one Negative Zone, one Asgard, and one Dark Dimension associated with each Earth universe. The collection of all associated realms is a Reality. Further changes to the history of a realm will alter its reality. In most cases, this actually involves overlapping or merging one reality with another. See below for further discussion on altered realities.

Mike Carey's description:

No Caption Provided
No Caption Provided
No Caption Provided

That's not debatable at that point.
The other guys are using their headcannon again.

The writer's words are clear, he is talking a single reality as like in Marvel Comics, a single reality is composed of many realms and dimensions.

For Mike Carey:

One Universe = One Reality.

Lucifer is nothing to Beyonder, he cannot even create a single reality without Michael's power. Beyonder wins.

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MichaelJulius

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#430  Edited By MichaelJulius

How does anyone take Animal666 seriously when Carey says right in that scan he made a "MULTIVERSE". We've hit a point where some users are so biased, so scared of their favorite characters not being seen as the strongest, that they will just post scans and hope to Overvoid that nobody reads the text.

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Y3kthunder

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@theanimal666: except the dcu have been explicitly stated as a multiverse many times over Carey stated you could use the terms interchangeably aka meaning his statement being beyond infinite as correct an the fact that in story the state of infinite timelines etc its a multiverse many of these characters like the endless hace multiversal feats an he scales above them

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TheAnimal666

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@y3kthunder: @michaeljulius:

The author explicitly said that he doesn't see "multiverse" as "multiple universes".

That's in the scans.

That's in the comics.

That's not debatable.

Now I have better things to do than discussing the author whom was crystal clear so good night.

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TheAnimal666

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ShadowRazer24

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lol.

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deactivated-5dbdb3c31507c

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Lucifer Morningstar.

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MichaelJulius

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So much evidence in favor of Lucifer easily winning this. The strongest will power and mind in DC, who makes other deities murder themselves just by speaking to them vs the most inept and boastful cosmic tier entity.

Seems unfair to me.

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etriel

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So much evidence in favor of Lucifer easily winning this. The strongest will power and mind in DC, who makes other deities murder themselves just by speaking to them vs the most inept and boastful cosmic tier entity.

Seems unfair to me.

Lucifer Morningstar.

lol.

@michaeljulius said:

In DC Comics, each individual in Heaven has his own equivalent Multiverse as part of their personal afterlife. Lucifer made not only the base applications for his own creation, but he also destroyed untold numbers of mirror realities and also made sure to create the same infinite set of Multiverses inside of his own creation.

Not one reality. A lot.

This is something we both can totally agree on. Lucifer is multiversal. No argument can be made against it.

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Y3kthunder

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#438  Edited By Y3kthunder

@theanimal666: look dc is a multiverse this should not be debated the presence has been credited for making it for almost 80 years now Carey gave us how he did it which was through Michael an lucifer. So is sandman a multiverse yes now why is that death itself says so. Dream says so. an in one of his stories he sends a guy through all Americas through all infinite worlds. The basanos look through timelines an make certain things happen from them this is something Destiny can do this. also this means its a multiverse period. Tim hunter created what a 1000 alt realities an he isn't nowhere near dream level nevertheless lucifer. Posted the scan where lucifer discribes creation as everything layered on top of one another through infinite repetitions. So yes its a multiverse this cannot be debated so who made it? Lucifer an Michael stated 5 times melos said it first then death then the presence twice an finally lucifer in his current series so yes its a multiverse

How was it made through the demiguric then shaped by lucifer so if a FP demiguric made the presences creation logically a FP demiguric would made lucifers the same size

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TheAnimal666

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@y3kthunder: The author of the book explained it was a single reality.
That's not debatable.

If you feel like you have to discuss the author then go speak with the author.

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Y3kthunder

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@theanimal666: the author explicitly in the story itself puts it as a multiverse do you know what makes a multiverse a multiverse? Timelines dude it has infinite the sandman universe is a multiverse dc is a multiverse the demiguric created both dc an lucifers creation ergo its a multiverse no way around it when the comics themselves state what theyre but perhaps I'll try to contact him.

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Rijehu

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@michaeljulius: Not to mention that Animal666 is A) completely overlooking the fact that Lucifer clarified that he created a multiverse in Nirvana. B)Completely overlooking the fact that the Sandman series (Lucifer’s origins) takes place in THE multiverse and attests to infinities upon infinities of creations and timelines in the DREAMING alone, let alone the DC cosmos. C) Ignoring the fact that several

Vertigo comics after the Carey Lucifer series have attested to DC being not only a multiverse, but multiple multiverses in creation. Even the most recent Sandman comics confirm this and they refer directly to the original Sandman comics INCLUDING Lucifer’s experience with him. Desperation.

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TheAnimal666

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@y3kthunder: He explicitly is talking about a single reality.

Did you read my post at all ?

There is no ambiguities.

It's a single reality.

@y3kthunder: Mike Carey explicitly described the term as the equivalent for "reality".

There is no ambiguities about it.

Definition of one single reality:

A Reality is the collection of an Earth-like universe and all other realms associated with that universe. For example, in general, there is one Negative Zone, one Asgard, and one Dark Dimension associated with each Earth universe. The collection of all associated realms is a Reality. Further changes to the history of a realm will alter its reality. In most cases, this actually involves overlapping or merging one reality with another. See below for further discussion on altered realities.

Mike Carey's description:

No Caption Provided
No Caption Provided
No Caption Provided

That's not debatable at that point.
The other guys are using their headcannon again.

The writer's words are clear, he is talking a single reality as like in Marvel Comics, a single reality is composed of many realms and dimensions.

For Mike Carey:

One Universe = One Reality.

Lucifer is nothing to Beyonder, he cannot even create a single reality without Michael's power. Beyonder wins.

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Red_Leader

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Beyonder has actual feats, Lucifer has statements.

Beyonder > Lucifer.

Oh boy, the ability to be compared to the goddamned presence is just a "statement with no meaning"

Beyonder is fodder to Lucifer

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Iflated3go

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#444  Edited By Iflated3go

@red_leader: Yes, yes it is.

My pet goldfish compares to the Presence.

Look it's that easy.

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etriel

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#445  Edited By etriel

Marvel's Multiverse during the run of Pre-Retcon Secret Wars had no evidence that each Universe was infinite in size.

This means that all of Beyonder's feats are equal to Infinite Universe level. Since Infinite Finite Universes = 1 Infinite Universe. And since Heaven and Hell contain Infinite Universes as of more recent DC Cosmology.

This is 2019.

Regardless of what anyone says, Lucifer's Creation Lore (who is still relevant this year) will always scale to DC's Multiverse so using outdated statements by M. Carey during a time of outdated DC Cosmology is completely irrelevant due to updated size retcons of DC Cosmology. And so long as the Endless are above the 5-Dimensional Orrery, and that Lucifer had a hand in shaping those realms, you have no argument that Lucifer is only Universe level.

I have no idea what with all this desperate lowballing is. You don't even need to be really Multiversal to beat Beyonder.

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Y3kthunder

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@theanimal666: but the comics themselves contradict that having timelines is explicitly what makes a multiverse anywho ive messaged mr carey hopefully he responds dunno if he will though

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Y3kthunder

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etriel

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#448  Edited By etriel

@y3kthunder said:

@theanimal666: but the comics themselves contradict that having timelines is explicitly what makes a multiverse anywho ive messaged mr carey hopefully he responds dunno if he will though

Carey stated that a Universe he thinks of carries all trimmings.

Since Universes in DC create new Timelines, this means that Lucifer created a Universe that makes new Timelines. Since the physics for this falls under the "All-Trimmings".

So their repeated spamming of that WoG is self-defeating since it will carry on to new DC Cosmology. So I'm not sure what his point is. Marvel fans are failing so badly they need to call the mods for their fee fees.

I guess the whole TOAA getting stomped by reality warping only as deep as Sub-Atoms was too triggering for them.

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Y3kthunder

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@etriel: lol I agree it explicitly states in the comic that it has infinite timelines that makes it a multiverse regardless of what anyone says not to mention the other evidence posted to support it that got ignored that is sad

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etriel

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#450  Edited By etriel

@y3kthunder said:

@etriel: lol I agree it explicitly states in the comic that it has infinite timelines that makes it a multiverse regardless of what anyone says not to mention the other evidence posted to support it that got ignored that is sad

Daniel Hall/Dream of the Endless whose own realm is part of the Sphere of the Gods, and that the Dreaming contains Infintie Universes Vortex that contains Infinite Universes. He is canonically weaker than Lucifer bit Lucifer is still Universe level.

Lucifer accessed the Void, which exists beyond Infinite Universes and Lucifer manipulates creations there, but Lucy is still Universe level.

The Spectre literally confirmed that "Creation" (That Lucifer is involved in) includes Higher Dimensions that contains Multiverses in JLA 2018+, but Lucifer is still Universe level.

Gods in the Sphere of the Gods are easily Multiversal such as Rama Kushna and Hindu Gods perceive Lucifer as more powerful than them, but Lucifer is still Universe level.

The Silver City contains Infinite Universes and MIchael and Lucifer created that realm. But Lucifer is still Universe level.

And they grasp straws desperately using outdated WOG??????? Crazy. The evidence for Lucifer's Multiversal power is endless and continues to grow.