Lucifer Morningstar Vs Beyonder

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DamnINeedABreak

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Poll: Lucifer Morningstar Vs Beyonder (117 votes)

Lucifer Morningstar 70%
Beyonder 30%

The Morningstar Vs The Omnipotent One

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Y3kthunder

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#351  Edited By Y3kthunder

@_logos_: what are you talking bout lucifer has held 1/4 of his verse in his hands beyonder hasn't ever done that. Lucifer tanked the demiguric 3 times without flinching thats his verse blowing up in his face. Beyonder came close but no cigar. Lucifer is simply smarter than beyonder. Lucifer can most as close to instantaneous as possible an moved across 3 creations in a span of a few pages does beyonder even have a speed feat? Lucifer blew up the mansions of silence with his presence thats like blowing up the dark multiverse by being there beyonder has only partially destroyed his so what feats you talking bout cuz cause you have that backwards

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Direflash

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@yasindermann: Yeah so it is just buzzwords. So there is no infinite reality warping and infinite imagination, because that would make them the absolute of everything. Beyonder was above every character in marvel in every level, he destroyed the all multiverse of marvel and recreated it with single snap of fingers, but still he was infinite in nothing.

Just saying, don't bring stupid buzzwords in these battles meaning anything.

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etriel

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#353  Edited By etriel

@direflash said:

@yasindermann: Yeah so it is just buzzwords. So there is no infinite reality warping and infinite imagination, because that would make them the absolute of everything. Beyonder was above every character in marvel in every level, he destroyed the all multiverse of marvel and recreated it with single snap of fingers, but still he was infinite in nothing.

Just saying, don't bring stupid buzzwords in these battles meaning anything.

Beyonder never destroyed Marvel's Multiverse, he only shook it and destroyed the planets and galaxies inside it, but he never destroyed the construct outright. Don't make up lies.

Furthermore, Marvel's Multiverse during secret wars is just Baseline Infinity, no different from an Infinite Sized Universe.

Mxyzptlk's reality warping is only some level of conceptual reality warping, but it's superior to physics warping of Beyonder and he is more hax in comparison.

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_Logos_

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@y3kthunder: Those feats, all of those you mentioned you made assumptions about. There is nothing proving the Demiurge is the equivalent amount of power as the entire multiverse, Lucifer's speed feats are irrelevant especially if you look at his reaction and moments where he engages in actual combat, and your third mentioned feat you attached another assumption you can not prove. Lucifer's intellect only comes down to his knowledge of things, when it comes to his actual cunning he's pretty average. He's good at scheming, but he's been also vulnerable to other entities' plans like the Basanos who outsmarted him and pretty much got him killed.

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Yasindermann

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#355  Edited By Yasindermann

@direflash said:

@yasindermann: Yeah so it is just buzzwords. So there is no infinite reality warping and infinite imagination, because that would make them the absolute of everything. Beyonder was above every character in marvel in every level, he destroyed the all multiverse of marvel and recreated it with single snap of fingers, but still he was infinite in nothing.

Just saying, don't bring stupid buzzwords in these battles meaning anything.

Like I said, infinite is something relative in fiction, meaning if someone gives an fictional status of an ''infinite multiversal destroyer'' (Baseline multiverse), it just reffers to an infinite multiverse, but this doesn't apply to truly omnipotent entities, who exist beyond all kind of infinities, a.k.a truly infinity beyond all relative infinities. Same with ''infinite imagination''. So ''infinite'' doesn't have to reffer to some kind of totality. It's just the fact that ''Mxy's infinite imagination'' reaches higher levels than Beyonder's powers. I don't support MichaelJulius terminology on things, but I'm trying to argue from his perspective now.

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etriel

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#356  Edited By etriel

@_logos_ said:

Looking back Lucifer feats pale in comparison to Beyonders. I mean at least Beyonder actually does something on a multiversal scale

Beyonder shook a Multiverse that is infinite in size,

Lucifer manipulated and shaped a Universe, that is also infinite in size. That same Universe contained dimensional constructs like Heaven and Hell, which each also contained Infinite Universes.

That Beyonder's Cosmology has more emphasis on division, means absolutely nothing. His best feat was shaking an Infinite Multiverse and erasing the galaxies in them, but nothing beyond that.

But if it came to who has better feats, Beyonder has Lucifer beat.

No he doesn't. Lucifer tanked Michael's blast which has the same attack potency of unleashing an Infinite construct, while Beyonder tanked a blast that was equal to a finite level construct. The latter was also renewing same Infinite Universe or Multiverse moment to moment.

Also, Lucifer destroyed the Mansions of Silence, which contained Infinite Sized Universes, equal to his Father's Creation which is also infinite.

That anyone thinks Beyonder has better feats than Lucifer is erroneous, Lucifer has superior versions of all of Beyonder's feats and this is a fact.

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Direflash

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@etriel: How did I lie? Never said he destroyed all the constitution of every reality, maybe check your reading. He still destroyed far greater number of realities in one-two pannels with no sweat than Mxyzptlk ever did and restored them even more easier.

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Y3kthunder

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@_logos_: no there not the demiguric was stated to be the presences power aka the dude who's been credited for the creation of the multiverse for I dunno how long it recreated everything in existence an was stated multiple time to be able to destroy the multiverse.

You realize half the series lucifer was weakened in some way? An yeah he absorbed 20 billion years of knowledge on thw multiverse in a blink of an eye not only that he knows secrets of creation that none knew. An his hole new series its hinted that he knew what was gonna happen the whole time.

Again not much of an assumption when the mansions of silence were stated to hold infinite mirriors that contained countless failed universes an creations. An he outsmarted the basanos not the other way rpund though I'll give you that they almost killed him twice but what do you expect there Destinys equal the guy who holds all existence in his hand. An fyi lucifer is free will the whole story was about him overcoming preordan destiny which he did

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etriel

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@etriel: How did I lie? Never said he destroyed all the constitution of every reality, maybe check your reading. He still destroyed far greater number of realities in one-two pannels with no sweat than Mxyzptlk ever did and restored them even more easier.

Mxyzptlk erased an infinite number of timelines, and perceives said timelines as literal fiction in comparison to him.

Beyonder never did anything like that.

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MichaelJulius

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#360  Edited By MichaelJulius

Copy and pastes of comics statement bubbles, not even my opinion. Having infinite reality warping power or the power of literal infinite imagination doesn't make you Omnipotent. These two powers aren't even enough to get Mxyzptlk into the Monitor Sphere.

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@direflash said:

@michaeljulius:

infinite reality warping? Infinite imagination? seems like some buzzwords for something that is not there in any reality of these comics. None of these characters have inifinite anything because they are not omnipotent.

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MichaelJulius

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@michaeljulius: ok guess its time I started on that is there a specific reading order an could you plox pm the interview statements etc it'll take a while to comb through it all but I'll do it

Final Crisis is huge. You have to start there. Issue 1-7.

From there, grab The Multiversity, the Guidebook and Issues 1-2 (3 issues in total)

After that ends Final Crisis and you get into other writers territory. To be relevant to current events, you'll need to read Dark Knight Metal, The Unexpected and also the entire JLA 2018-now. These aren't as important. You can totally avoid reading these and it won't really affect anything, because they are different canon from Morrison Final Crisis Cosmology.

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Y3kthunder

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@etriel: yes but it was also said to have infinite timelines an at the end of lucifers first series he discribed creation as everything layer on top of itself endlessly through infinite repetitions

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Direflash

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@etriel: Lots of realitywarpers have erased timelines, its really easy when you can manipulate time, but you really think it means something to abstract beings with this level who interact time and space with multiversal scale where your mainpulating time means nothing. You really think erasing timelines harms or bothers like Living Tribunal in one bit? Who was kneeling when Beyonder walkin in to the hall. We are talking about raw power here.

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etriel

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#364  Edited By etriel

@direflash said:

@etriel: Lots of realitywarpers have erased timelines, its really easy when you can manipulate time, but you really think it means something to abstract beings with this level who interact time and space with multiversal scale where your mainpulating time means nothing..

Reality Warping is a power is a vague bullsh*t power to be honest. Things from Molecule and Atom Manipulation has been called reality warping, how? By that logic, breaking a glass is reality warping because you "changed" something that is real?

The word is a buzzword that Marvel fanboys like to overuse without discussing the nature of one's powers. Pardon the language.

Marvel Abstracts are made up of timelines. Decent Multiversal Destructors can get rid of them. Lmfao

You really think erasing timelines harms or bothers like Living Tribunal in one bit?

Yeah. Why not? What proof do you have against it?

Living Tribunal's body is a Multiverse, made up of Timelines. If you erase Timelines, you erase Living Tribunal since Timelines is his entire body/totality. Seems straightforward to me.

Therefore Mxy stomps LT. Who erased Timelines.

It's like saying a Planet Buster cannot destroy a Sentient Planet, because it has a "mind".

2 beats 1 and 1 beats 0. Simple, you make it as if it's so hard to think about.

Who was kneeling when Beyonder walkin in to the hall. We are talking about raw power here

The Marvel Abstracts were featless fodders by the time, before Beyonder was retconned. You cannot scale Pre-Retcon Beyonder to versions of the Marvel Abstracts that stomped Beyonder when he was retconned.

The difference between Beyonder and Lucifer is that Lucifer's Creation Lore is still somewhat relevant to current DC. Beyonder isn't.

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Direflash

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@etriel:

You really think erasing timelines harms or bothers like Living Tribunal in one bit?

Yeah. Why not? What proof do you have against it?

because erasing timelines does not erase Living Tribunal, it does not erase the beings like that you idiot. It might change and erase the miniscule beings and things, but you really think it erases the most powerful beings aswell. Well it does not. They are fluid in time and space. You really tough every reality warper killed all the universes big shots every time they changed or erased timelines?

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Stezzy

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“Erasing timelines will erase LT”

Now I’ve officially heard it all. I guess Mikaboshi killed LT off panel according to Etrain. Like I’ve said before, just ignore this clown. He literally has no idea what he’s talking about. The fact that multi Eternity has displayed universes being born and destroyed when Dormammu dived into him and LT was in no way affected proves Eblain wrong. He knows nothing about Marvel’s cosmology yet talks out his ass nonstop. I’m not even convinced he reads Marvel comics.

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MichaelJulius

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The complete erasure of Marvel's Multiverse won't affect The Tribunal.

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Rijehu

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Lucifer shreds him via feats, statements, scaling, or hype.

Beings who cower at Lucifer would shred him via feats, statements, scaling, or hype.

Beings below those beings (Mxy) would still shred him.

This has been done several times. People get pissed at you for using the same logic in favor of Lucifer that they used to support Beyonder for the last decade.

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OnlyOneEmpereor

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Lucifer claps and solos the verse

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TheAnimal666

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@michaeljulius:

infinite reality warping? Infinite imagination? seems like some buzzwords for something that is not there in any reality of these comics. None of these characters have inifinite anything because they are not omnipotent.

He is bullshitting. There is nothing to support the notion that CaS can beat Marvel's abstract or anything.

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etriel

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#371  Edited By etriel

@direflash said:

@etriel:

You really think erasing timelines harms or bothers like Living Tribunal in one bit?

Yeah. Why not? What proof do you have against it?

because erasing timelines does not erase Living Tribunal, it does not erase the beings like that you idiot. It might change and erase the miniscule beings and things, but you really think it erases the most powerful beings aswell. Well it does not. They are fluid in time and space. You really tough every reality warper killed all the universes big shots every time they changed or erased timelines?

Because your arguments are based on your opinion with no factual data.

Ultimate Ultimates proved that Living Tribunal is powerless if Infinite Timelines do not properly reform as in the previous hierarchy, that's why he was killed by Chaos and Order whom he was supposed to be infinitely superior to.

Secret Wars literally tells us that the Marvel Multiverse (infinity timelines) is Living Tribunal's entire body.

Mxy can just change the laws or even destroy Marvel's Infinite Timelines, and LT's power stops working already, it happened before in Marvel's history, it can happen again. Why not? This is not Opinion based, this is what happened on panel-based.

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Stezzy

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@rijehu: lets see those feats then.

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Rijehu

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#373  Edited By Rijehu

@stezzy: Google Search Engine. Or CV Archives. They are everywhere. There are literally a plethora of Lucifer respect threads, CaVs, and comic sites that you can google to find what Lucifer has done just as you did for Beyonder. Put the same effort into your searches as you do for the other guy. I have faith in you.

But if not, what feats would you like to see?

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destinyman75

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After all the same argument about Lucifer he still looses or hasn't shown anything that suggest he wins or can do anything different then beyonder..

Beyonder until an actual thing happens

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Stezzy

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@rijehu: I’m just asking for feats that would suggest Lucifer can kill Beyonder because I haven’t seen anything in his respect threads that goes beyond destroying space time which will do literally nothing against Beyonder or even LT.

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Rijehu

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#376  Edited By Rijehu

@stezzy: Interesting. So are you asking if Lucifer can kill beings who transcend Space and Time?

Lucifer possessed by Fenris has already slain Michael...and has defeated him in combat in the 2016 run.

Lucifer weakened, with a limited amount of power, one shotted that same Fenris who had previously destroyed to the throne of the Presence in the silver city.

Lucifer wipes the Silk Man (an eldritch being from a completely separate creation that the Presence) out of existence with a thought in Nirvana. Silk Man himself is a traveler and inhabitant of he void and has leached off the existence of other universes floating there. He is not confined to neither space nor time of any creation.

To assert that Lucifer’s destruction capabilities are limited to space time (or beings within space time) wouldn’t make sense as he can kill beings who themselves are supersede the concepts. Which is why beings like Dream (both Morpheus and Daniel) are afraid of him.

Also, Lucifer’s manipulation goes well beyond Space-Time with him being able to manipulate the void itself and even warping platonic realms beyond the actual Multiverse.

But since you mentioned it, is there anything that Beyonder can do to Lucifer?

And just to be clear, are you arguing that Lucifer can’t harm LT?

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etriel

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#377  Edited By etriel

Beyonder was literally almost killed by a power equal to a Multiverse, he is cosmic fodder.

Marvel debaters are all about "Statements for me but not for thee" arguments. They ain't all that what they say.

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Rijehu

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#378  Edited By Rijehu

@etriel: To be fair, I think the logic being used here is that “Lucifer has never actually destroyed anyone or anything beyond Space-Time and since said beings transcend Space-Time, there is nothin that says Lucifer can harm them”.

While that is false, that argument stems from the fact Lucifer doesn’t just Willy Nilly hop in and destroy concepts and conceptual beings with a wave of his finger. We know he can (and has done so on panel) but it’s not in his nature or the narrative of him to do so to the extent of it being as emphasized as beings like Beyonder for example.

That’s why I say it’s hype. When you see Morpheus being terrified of Lucifer, and you know who Morpheus is and what he can do on panel. You understand just how “beyond” Lucifer’s power is. It also doesn’t help that he’s more of a manipulator than a destroyer. Since in battles we often take destroying feats over anything else. Lucifer’s raw power narrative wise exceeds most, but it’s not flamboyant so it gets overlooked.

You have a being stated to billions of times stronger than a multiverse, capable of shaking the multiverse, and capable of wiping out abstracts of said multiverse and because of statements and hyperbole, with a bit of feats to point towards evidence, so it sticks. It’s brute force based.

But when you look at Lucifer being a sharper of two multiverses, being more powerful than the anthropomorphic conceptual laws of creation, creating stars that themselves can destroy the multiverse and even trap an Endless temporarily, being capable of warping every dimension and realm of two multiverses separated by the void, and destroying a dimension which holds infinite possible versions of the DC multiverse including realms and dimensions, it doesn't get utilized because he never spammed such power to destroy everything and everyone.

But we know that beings below him can and have destroyed he multiverse and beings within it casually. For instance, Mxy has better feats than Beyonder, especially seeing as to how WF is canon. Yet Mxy is outright inferior to beings who are inferior to Lucifer, but because Mxy has never outright been stated to kill beings beyond space and time, That will get overlooked in battles because it doesn’t support the opposition in gaging power levels and effectiveness. I’m not saying it’s right, but it makes sense.

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Yasindermann

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@rijehu: You don't need ''BIGGER EXPLOSION'' feats, when you're being is independent of physics, and thus independent of molecular manipulation. Something marvel fanboys cannot comprohend. It's intlectually just dumb.

''BIG BOOM'' simply cannot affect Lucifer.

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MichaelJulius

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#380  Edited By MichaelJulius

Lucifer pre-dates Creation in DC. All of the powers that The Beyonder showcased are based on criteria that were generated and mirrored by Michael...and shaped by Lucifer.

The Beyonder originally being Infinite Dimensional means diddly in this argument. It implies he is still bound by Physics and based on physics in his more unlimited form. In this debate, The Beyonder infinite dimensional characteristic can't be obtained outside of his Beyond realm.

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Mr. Myxzptlk is enough to wipe him out of existence and tell him so what big guy, I am Infinite Dimensional + 1. You dont need to listen to me on this, listen to Brainiac, the most intelligent being in all of DC who isn't a God.

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In his unbound form, he is still subject to physics and directly stated to be based on dimensional tiering. This means anyone who has total control or override of dimensions of a physical timespace, like Monitors or Imps, Angels and similar beyond Multiversal level entities, remove that infinite dimensionality with a mere thought.

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etriel

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#381  Edited By etriel

@rijehu: Indeed,

Lucifer and Michael both wield the Presence's power who has been equated to by several characters in DC's history to be the Source. Since the Source is the creator of the Source-Raptor who stomped Perpetua, and all the Infinite Creations in the Void (which Elaine moved up and down by flapping her wings).

And Perpetua's essence is that of the 6th Dimension, the Highest Realm in the Multiverse before the Void that is conceptually transcendent to the Sphere of the Gods which was stated by Rama Kushna and Sena to be Infinite Dimensional. Oh, and Lucifer is beyond the Speed Force Wall (Lucifer is beyond physical motion conceptually).

I can't possibly come up with some non sense argument to argue that Lucifer and Michael are only Universe level and would be affected by someone who nearly died by a Multiversal attack. They appear to be very deep up there Cosmologically.

The Angel Brothers both wield an aspect of the Presence's power (basically Ain Soph) anyway, the Infinity that perceives the concept that contains all levels of Infinity as Tzimtzum (infinitesimal). The Cosmology doesn't matter.

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Co-Boss

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@etriel: when was the beyonder almost killed by the power of a multiverse, I hear that a bunch and Ive been curious when it happened because he has tanked stuff that would be near that before so it’s just weird.

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etriel

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@co-boss said:

@etriel: when was the beyonder almost killed by the power of a multiverse, I hear that a bunch and Ive been curious when it happened because he has tanked stuff that would be near that before so it’s just weird.

When Puma manifested all the energy of a Multiverse to kill Beyonder. The attack would have killed Beyonder (even Beyonder said so), had Puma properly focused.

Beyonder tanked a Multi-Universal attack, but he cannot tank a complete Multiversal attack.

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MichaelJulius

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The Source is NOT the Presence at all, it was only ever referenced in a single comic story to have something to do with the Presence, and that was from the story arc where Kronus attacked Pantheons. Even then, it doesnt make sense how Kronus got a hold of The Sources GODWAVE and then tried to kill The Pax Dei with it, only to realize it wasnt very effective.

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Scott Snyder and Tynnion state clearly their entire cosmology is another Hypertime Lane, another canon, so introduction old canons to try to justify this one, is invalid. This is no longer up for discussion when the Author answers the question for you directly. Users try to link the biblical Presence and his Multiverse canon, with other canons because they absolutely HATE the idea that The Presence is not the Alpha. He is another Creator, just like Perpetua and Praylaya. The Religious debate on this doesnt belong here. Get rid of it.

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Heroes broke the Source Wall, entered it and went past it only to find Barbatos and Monitors behind it in Dark Knight Metal. This question is 100% answered already.

https://www.cbr.com/dc-source-wall-break-explained/

https://www.dccomics.com/blog/2018/04/13/first-look-what-lies-beyond-the-source-wall-in-no-justice-1

No more debate on The Presence behind the Source Wall. This was confirmed repeatedly that it leads to Monitors. Enough already. No interpretations here. Literal fact.

Here, in older canons, we have The Spectre who breeches the Source Wall and is in unfamiliar territory. He has no idea what The Source is. This is the same Spectre who talks to and can interact with The Presence in Heaven. But, when he goes past the Source Wall, he has no idea who that is.

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This is whatever The Source is, telling The Spectre what its like to be his God. This entity, and The Presence, are not the same beings. Spectre knows The Presence. He did not know The Source.

Who is Beyond The Source Wall in Morrison Continuity? Limbo, Mandrakk and Nil Monitors.

Whats Behind the Source Wall in Scott Synder Continuity? Monitors.

Whats Behind The Source Wall in the new JLA 2018 series? More Monitors like Perpetua. Her Judges are more of her brotherin .

Dream of the Endless, a Creation of THE PRESENCE, cannot set food in Monitor territory.

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Listen to facts, objective data and scans. Not user opinion completely devoid of a shred of evidence.

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Rijehu

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@michaeljulius: Michael, we get it bro. Monitors reign supreme. Angels and The Presence and other entities in DC are infinities upon infinities of infinite infinities below them and there’s no amount of debating or interpretations or context or comics that can change that. Monitors are real life meta beings and everyone else is fictional even the omnipotent Presence who is still just a character to them and the whole Vertigo DC canon is just an atom to the Monitors and always and forever will be throughout all canons in every fiction ever. We get it. You explain it beautifully. But what does that have to do with this battle?

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MichaelJulius

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#386  Edited By MichaelJulius

The last few responses were centered around The Source Wall and what is behind it, as well as if the Source is the Presence. I detail all of that and you ask me what this has to do with the debate? The answer: everything, because that was literally the most recent discussion here on this very page.

@rijehu said:

@michaeljulius: Michael, we get it bro. Monitors reign supreme. Angels and The Presence and other entities in DC are infinities upon infinities of infinite infinities below them and there’s no amount of debating or interpretations or context or comics that can change that. Monitors are real life meta beings and everyone else is fictional even the omnipotent Presence who is still just a character to them and the whole Vertigo DC canon is just an atom to the Monitors and always and forever will be throughout all canons in every fiction ever. We get it. You explain it beautifully. But what does that have to do with this battle?

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Rijehu

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@michaeljulius: I never mentioned anything about Monitors or Perpetua lol. The topic is whether or no Lucifer decimates Beyonder and he does. I’m lost as to how we got from that to Monitors and the Presence. Even if both the Presence and Angels are nothing compared to Monitors, they would still clean house here.

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MichaelJulius

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Did you read Etriels giant wall of text about The Source and The Presence? I was answering for him and giving you the proper information because Etriel failed to so do.

Post 381. Etriel speaking directly to you.

@rijehu said:

@michaeljulius: I never mentioned anything about Monitors or Perpetua lol. The topic is whether or no Lucifer decimates Beyonder and he does. I’m lost as to how we got from that to Monitors and the Presence. Even if both the Presence and Angels are nothing compared to Monitors, they would still clean house here.

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Rijehu

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@michaeljulius: Oh! I did see that but again, that holds no relevance to the battle here. That’s what I was confused about. Rather or not The Presence is the source doesn’t change anything about this fight. But if you just wanted to correct him then I understand. What I’m saying is, Lucifer is superior to Beyonder either way.

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MichaelJulius

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@rijehu: No worries, I'm on board with Lucifer on the top of this battle.

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etriel

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#391  Edited By etriel

@rijehu said:

@michaeljulius: Oh! I did see that but again, that holds no relevance to the battle here. That’s what I was confused about. Rather or not The Presence is the source doesn’t change anything about this fight. But if you just wanted to correct him then I understand. What I’m saying is, Lucifer is superior to Beyonder either way.

That Michael replies to me is not "correcting" its only his fanatical self-feeding ego sessions to convince himself to deny the reality. There are already at least three (with an additional few more) storylines from different writers linking the Presence to the Source in the back past meanwhile Michael uses singular outlier cosmology info. already retconned by 2019 cosmologies, from single stories in absurd interpretations.

Even JLA 2019 when the Spectre called the Source Wall and its Multiverse as "Creation" which means from the Presence in the language of DC Angels meaning Perpetua and all of those Multiversals are just indirect creations from the Presence some how. And even Morrison said that the Presence is everywhere and nowhere, an attribute similar to the Source.

It's just that this is another one of Michael's cognitive dissonance where he uses scans that does not have any factor to do with the subject as "debunking".

The same as when he keeps thinking that Nabu = Destiny of the Endless. Because of his absurd interpretation from 1 scan from 1 never referenced again story that does not make any sense that even his followers are reluctant to defend.

He even thinks that DC will put out a story finally outlining Monitor Superiority in the future, which is insane because the Source Wall that is bar the Overvoid is the Presence's "Creation". That the Spectre even dimensionally perceives the Destruction of the Source Wall way beyond Limbo already proves all the non sense he is saying that SoG entities can never go beyond Limbo is bullcrap. Unless he is willing to argue that the Overvoid is part of Limbo.

He has already argued that the Nil Monitors are above the Source, and using his own logic, the former should be above the latter but nooooooooo.

He was even caught in the other thread thinking that Beatrice's Cat Box is a Baseline Multiverse (LMFAO).

My way in dealing with Michael is to wait for DC to put out more info that debunks him. It's already happening now, he even took back what he said about Hypertime. Lmfao. it's just that the man is crazy. Then he will disappear, alongside the other Monitor Wankers. I would ignore him.

It simply is not a war he can win in the long run.

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MichaelJulius

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#392  Edited By MichaelJulius

No, Etriel. It is your inability to accept the Abrahamic deities of real world religions aren't the alphas of the fiction. That is all this anti-Nil Monitor business is about. You yourself cite the Kabbalah a lot here, the ain soph talk pretty much ousts you as such. You just can't handle the fact that The Presence is just a narrative made of ink on the comic book page. That harms your religious beliefs severely and you bring them into fictional debates about comic book creationism.

Also, Nobody is going to listen to you further when there is an author statement disproving you on this.

-----------> You just don't want anyone to know what this interview says. Simple as that. <------------

Author calls Over Void the comic page itself, you say otherwise and think it is The Presence

(Just ignore that The Presence knows how the Multiverse got there and Over Void does not)

The Author says there are concepts above The Endless and that Endless are avatars of them, you say otherwise. The author fixes a sketch problem the illustrator made.

(Just ignore that Heaven is also cited up there in the Over Void too right next to Destiny, but that its all clearly just because he doesn't have the room on the page to write it and denotes lines to where Heaven is supposed to be on the map below. Try not to look too closely at Destinys sketch is also inside of the Sphere of Gods where it is supposed to be, but because he drew it too large, it expanded into the Over Monitor area and clearly, the illustrated didn't know what he was supposed to do there. Ignore that fully because it makes you feel better.)

Ignore the author writing an entire series called The Multiversity which corrects this and replaces Destiny with his favorite character Dr. Fate. Fate...being the higher form of Destiny he spoke of in his interview. No need for facts, it seems . Just doesn't make any sense you keep calling this Nabu. Nabu's higher form is Fate. Literal Fate. The ultimate concept of Fate > Destiny of the Endless.

Author tells you in video form Monitors are beyond The Presence

Ignore Hypertime and what it means, the shifting canons of DC, you say otherwise and that your Presence canon supersedes all other canons...why? Because you say so. No other reason. No evidence required.

Ignore fully that The Source Wall breaking lead to more Monitors in The Dark Knight Metal and currently in JLA 2018+ They went through it and ended up in Monitor territory.

Who are the Source Judges? More beings like Perpetua, her "brotherin". More Monitors are the Source Wall Judges.

That's a lot of information to flat out censor. It gets hard to keep track with all the scans and information you keep censoring from others. So, please let me know if I missed something.

@etriel said:

Not really, there are already at least three storylines linking the Presence to the Source, it's just that this is another one of Michael's cognitive dissonance.

That Michael replies to me is not "correcting" its only his fanatical self-feeding ego sessions to convince himself to deny the reality.

The same as when he keeps thinking that Nabu = Destiny of the Endless.

He even thinks that DC will put out a story finally outlining Monitor Superiority in the future (which is insane).

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etriel

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#393  Edited By etriel
@michaeljulius said:

No, Etriel. It is your inability to accept the Abrahamic deities of real world religions aren't the alphas of the fiction. That is all this anti-Nil Monitor business is about. You yourself cite the Kabbalah a lot here, the ain soph talk pretty much ousts you as such. You just can't handle the fact that The Presence is just a narrative made of ink on the comic book page. That harms your religious beliefs severely and you bring them into fictional debates about comic book creationism.

I'm not even a believer of any Organized Religion. What a staunch accusation that fails hard. Literally several Atheistic DC fans agree that Presence is above the Monitors, this has nothing to do with that.

And even if I was a Christian. The Presence is an entity who is so laughably different from the Hebrew God, it's not even funny. Where in the Bible does it say God used Michael and Lucifer to make Creation? Or that Michael has an aspect of himself as a Pagan God? Or that God planned Lucifer's fall from the start? Ooh, or the part where the Presence assigns the Endless to many roles in the Universe?

I'd say that you probably even wank the Presence more than I do, the only issue is a hierarchy, but your methods of arguments for backing the Presence and fodder angels in the Silver City cuz "divinity" is so wonky cringe when Silver City angels can sometimes get wrestled by Superman.

In fact, the Silver City were literally scared to shit when a bunch of Pagan Gods and even dead human souls from different religions (some of them are getting weaker due to lack of believers) was about to attack the Silver City to the point they had to beg Lucifer to stop the attack.

-----------> You just don't want anyone to know what this interview says. Simple as that. <------------

What do you mean? This is common knowledge that even Spacebattles and VSBattles knows, forums that most Monitor Wankers are chicken shit to post on. Including you.

Neil Gaiman thinks Death should be more Primal and not a locality, he thinks his Death of the Endless should be Primal/Ultimate Death and told DC off to not pull that crap again without his permission.

THIS proves that DC writers are not all this Morrison sucking dweebs like you like to say they are.

Author calls Over Void the comic page itself, you say otherwise and think it is The Presence

What does that have to do with the Presence's association with the Source who you don't even think is Meta?

That one writer thinks that the Overvoid is the Comic Page itself is completely irrelevant. Even more irrelevant, now that even a book that Morrison backs already places something above the Overvoid or the Nil already as fictional stories which is why the Overvoid doesn't know where the DC Multiverse came from.

LMfao.

No Caption Provided

(Just ignore that Heaven is also cited up there in the Over Void too right next to Destiny, but that its all clearly just because he doesn't have the room on the page to write it and denotes lines to where Heaven is supposed to be on the map below. Try not to look too closely at Destinys sketch is also inside of the Sphere of Gods where it is supposed to be, but because he drew it too large, it expanded into the Over Monitor area and clearly, the illustrated didn't know what he was supposed to do there. Ignore that fully because it makes you feel better.)

You are making up shit theories with no scans whatsoever here. And more irrelevance.

The JLA 2019 (you know, UPDATED cosmology, not outdated WOG from 10-15 years ago) proved that the Angels, Spectre and many entities in the SoG can perceive the Ultimate Source Wall's destruction, with the Overvoid beyond that, that the Void the Angels perceive is indeed the same as the Overvoid. This debunked you. You literally have zero counter-argument against this.

Ignore fully that The Source Wall breaking lead to more Monitors in The Dark Knight Metal and currently in JLA 2018+ They went through it and ended up in Monitor territory.

Most Nil Monitors are dead you silly goose. The Brothers Three (who are not the same as the Nil) merely reincarnate in the 6th Dimension every after death and are around and involved now because Perpetua was released from the Source Wall. LMFAO

What's your point?

Ignore the author writing an entire series called The Multiversity which corrects this and replaces Destiny with his favorite character Dr. Fate. Fate...being the higher form of Destiny he spoke of in his interview. No need for facts, it seems . Just doesn't make any sense you keep calling this Nabu. Nabu's higher form is Fate. Literal Fate. The ultimate concept of Fate > Destiny of the Endless.

There is no correction. Only your cognitive dissonance of posting scans that don't say what you say.

It's like when you posted that one scan a year ago that had nothing to do with what you were saying.

That's a lot of information to flat out censor. It gets hard to keep track with all the scans and information you keep censoring from others. So, please let me know if I missed something.

You claim I am censoring when you are literally failing hard right now to explain how the Angels and SoG entities can conceptually even perceive the same Overvoid that Perpetua perceives after the Source Wall's destruction and attribute that SW's destruction event as "Creation" level, meaning Angels attribute the Ultimate Source Wall's destruction as on the level of Presence's Creation level of crisis.

So this idea that the SoG entities can never go beyond Limbo is a stupid absurd lie you created.

When a year ago, you literally argued that something like this was IMPOSSIBLE and yet it happened!?!?!?!?!?!?!

When your ENTIRE argument was that the Void that SoG entities perceive was never the Overvoid, and that the Source Wall they know is just a Universe level Source Wall.

DC already proved you wrong about how Hypertime works. Your precious OUTDATED/RETCONNED author statements mean little.

You've been proven wrong before, it can happen again. You're no God of DC interpretation, and you never were.

Do you think DC won't put out more stuff that makes your fanwank irrelevant? No, and even you wouldn't bet YOUR life on it.

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johnsmjs36

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@etriel: What changes of Nabu is he talking about? Destiny is still at the top in official map.

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etriel

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#395  Edited By etriel

@johnsmjs36 said:

@etriel: What changes of Nabu is he talking about? Destiny is still at the top in official map.

Yeah, it's still in DC's official website.

Morrison still tells us that is Destiny of the Endless according to his script,

No Caption Provided

and he continued drawing the figure on the Overvoid as looking 100% like Destiny of the Endless and never bothered going to DC's Website that he still has influence on to change it.

What changes?

Only changes I see is that the Overvoid is not an all-encompassing Void in DC anymore, it's been retconned even by Morrison this 2018+.

Michael was right.

Overvoid is NOT the Void beyond all Voids. It's just another Void like Mother Night or Pralaya.

That's why the Overvoid had no idea where the DC Multiverse came from because entities beyond its own non-existence drew it.

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johnsmjs36

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@etriel: Also the whole consuming of Dreaming is more complicated than it seems. Dream in his opening sequence says that the events of the Dark Knight Metals are already written in the library. Lucien Library is pretty unique in that every story ever dreamt or nightmare are recorded. When the story is written in the real world or the events told the books start to burn. Now World Forger used to hammer hope and dreams into existence but Barbatos was hammering the nightmares and the stories from Lucien Library. This is why the books started to burn. This is no indication of the World Forge being greater than Dreaming. It was just a property of the Library. One would have to read the whole story to know the whole context behind the two pages that were floating in here. This situation is similar to Itachi vs Obito. Itachi fans took a single page out of entire chapter in which Obito says that if Itachi had known his secret he would have died. Now it looks straightforward and that Itachi>Obito. But the context behind that statement was that Itachi had planted a failsafe which activated when Obito arrived and would have died had Itachi known his ability to be intangible. This is the same situation.

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etriel

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#397  Edited By etriel

@johnsmjs36: The Endless operate on so many rules, bound to them by Glory that any feat relating to them must be treated very carefully.

An example is how Cain's absence nearly destroyed the Dreaming. But he is not more powerful than Dream.

Morpheus also was not able to stop the Dreaming's destruction by the Kindly Ones despite him being more primal them due to the Multiversal-Laws set on Morpheus as an aspect of Dream.

Dr. Destiny was also able to destroy the Dreaming using Materioptikon.

And Barbatos nearly destroying the Dreaming VIA side-effect doesn't really mean anything. And it had nothing to do with attack potency whatsoever. But complex rules.

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johnsmjs36

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@etriel: Also Nix Uotan and his Ultra Comics feat that he likes to show atound is not impressive at all when you know the entire context behind it.Universe 33 or previously known as Prime Earth is Superboy Primes world. This was a supposed representation of real world where DC Comics publishes the stories and Ultra Comics is part of it. It i a world parallel to others. The world is like the forge or the Dreaming, dreams, ideas, etc make up the comics. UltraComics was made real by same thing. Going inside the comic is similar to travelling between worlds and every time a reader reads the comic the people inside it have to relieve the same moment again and again. Their entire existence depends upon the readers. This is a feat of Universe 33 rather than the monitor.

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MichaelJulius

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#400  Edited By MichaelJulius

"This is a feat of Universe 33 and not a Monitor."

I guess Nil Monitors don't classify as Monitors. And no, not Destiny up there in Morrison's cosmology. Sorry to burst your bubble, he got booted out and replaced with the concept of Fate. Not Nabu. Fate.

Nil Monitors looked into the future of DC Comics and saw the biggest future threat to DC Comics: The Empty Hand. To protect the heroes, they leeched into the "real world" and took Grant Morrisons Guidebook from him. In 2014, The Multiversity shows all of this and the DC Multiversity Guidebook was intentionally held off from actual release until after The Multiversity came out, because in the story of The Multiversity, Nil Monitors gave the yet to be written DC Guidebook to DC Comics characters.

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3

That DC Multiversity Guidebook, written by Grant Morrison, came out after the comic scans above. You can buy that, its part of the Multiversity story. They also took Flashpoint and many other DC Comics and gave it to Red Racer, who read all of them and became an expert on his own fictions comics.

No Caption Provided

Doesn't it seem absolutely nuts that anyone can say someone like Tribunal, Beyonder, or even Galactus could even remotely touch a Nil Monitor? CaS and Mandrakk were infinitely more powerful than all the Nil Monitors combined.

Flooding the community with misinformation to make sure it gets buried in a thread that users will skim over, just doesn't work these days. Wont be much longer before this entire way of debating and the anti-Final Crisis crew are completely empty on memberships. We saw a massive culture shift in the past few months on all debates of Final Crisis and those who cannot accept the objective hierarchy, will do whatever they have to in attempt to censor, skew, warp and flood threads with as much nonsense as possible to counter it.