Lucifer Morningstar Vs Beyonder

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DamnINeedABreak

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Poll: Lucifer Morningstar Vs Beyonder (119 votes)

Lucifer Morningstar 71%
Beyonder 29%

The Morningstar Vs The Omnipotent One

 • 
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COOLGUY18

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@takenstew22: At least they have arguments lmao, not like beyonder thots here that only create alts because they have no other arguments than "BEyoNdeR Is OmniPOTent ,oUtErvErsal CelesTial BEinG Who Is UnstopabLE NO ONE CAN BEAT HIM EVEN The One AboVE AlL" bullshit.

Also: I'm not joining the argument here lol, as debates like this always ends up the same way as bleach vs naruto threads lol.

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etriel

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#302  Edited By etriel

Marvel vs DC threads end in the same way. all the time. we only participate in this because Marvel debaters operate in repetitive propaganda the same way the Monitor Wankers do it.

where you continue to wank that physics destruction can actually affect beings that operate on levels deeper than your precious physics-warpers on a consistent basis.

repeat the lie, people will believe in it.

the Marvel boi group therapy session club point out my obvious alts and not point out my arguments. which is not a real debate.

all I said, is that Beyonder's multiversal feats are just the first level of infinity by terms of range, and not that good in quality either.

and everyone is using the SJW tactic of burying everything I say with "HE GOT AN ALT" i mean actually address the argument. otherwise it only appears that everyone is attacking me, not attacking the argument.

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MatvelBo77

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@etriel: So you really think Lucifer can solo marvel ?

Just asking btw

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etriel

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#304  Edited By etriel

@matvelbo77 said:

@etriel: So you really think Lucifer can solo marvel ?

Just asking btw

Depends on how you interpret Lucifer's feats and how you interpret Marvel's Cosmology. I believe that was my consistent teaching in the past.

We are going by current or latest Cosmology of the selected characters in question on this thread. And Lucifer stomps Marvel's current hierarchy.

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eri123

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#305 eri123  Online

Lucifer.

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Stezzy

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#306  Edited By Stezzy

@etriel: I’ve already addressed every retarded argument you’ve made and you’re going to continue ignoring the fact that Beyonder can kill conceptual entities(the concept of death itself) and ramble on about how he only operates on a physical level when this isn’t even true. None of Marvel’s top tiers are limited to a physical level, they need to make M bodies just to interact with anything on a physical level. I mentioned your alt once and you’re crying as if I’ve made it the highlight of my arguments. I don’t care about you and your alts. Please elaborate on this high level that Lucifer seems to operate on and how it’s any different from Beyonder. Stop padding out your essays with “Marvel fanboys this and that” because I don’t give that much of a shit about any fictional verse but you seem to get completely ass blasted when someone doesn’t want to join your DC hive mind. I roast Marvel and DC all the times but keep calling me a whatever fanboy, I don’t care. I just don’t think Lucifer is as strong as you make him out to be because he barely does shit.

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etriel

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#307  Edited By etriel
@stezzy said:

@etriel: I’ve already addressed every retarded argument you’ve made and you’re going to continue ignoring the fact that Beyonder can kill conceptual entities(the concept of death itself)

He killed the concept of death because death let him. And Lady Death is not even an Absolute Concept of Death. she is hardly impressive and she never operates within realms that are beyond all degrees of Physics-Time either.

The means of how Beyonder erased the concept of death are not even combat applicable.

i have no idea why this is not ringing in your brain.

and ramble on about how he only operates on a physical level when this isn’t even true.

We are talking about physics. like Time, Causality, Particles, Molecules, Mathematics. this is all Beyonder has demonstrated.

None of Marvel’s top tiers are limited to a physical level, they need to make M bodies just to interact with anything on a physical level.

Marvel's Top Tiers are most consistently functions inside a Multiverse of Physics-Space-Time. as outlined by Ultimate Ultimates. What you speak of is Higher-Dimensional physiology.

Infinity and Eternity are both embodiments of Space-Time, you know, physics, science definition. They cannot transcend themselves (lol).

Being beyond physical form does not mean you are beyond Physics-SpaceTime while Lucifer existed when those things didn't even exist yet.

I don't know why you are wanking Space-Time/Physics power to destroy something that existed before Space-Time/Physics was even a thing?

I think you are confusing physics with physical.

@stezzy:

I just don’t think Lucifer is as strong as you make him out to be because he barely does shit.

Like I care if you do not think Lucifer is as strong as I make him out to be? you are a Marvel fan. you are entitled to your opinion. Your opinion is forever backing Marvel.

But I also don't think Beyonder is as strong as you lot make him out to be either. and I am setting out to prove this BEYONDER STOMPS EVERYONE IN FICTION lie that your kind has perpetuated for at least a decade.

I am neither DC nor Marvel fan, these two comics produce garbage retcon stories whilst you are bound by the DC vs Marvel dichotomy. Do not compare me to you.

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Stezzy

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@etriel:

He killed the concept of death because death let him. And Lady Death is not even an Absolute Concept of Death. she is hardly impressive. this isnt even combat applicable.

Beyonder was already too powerful for the entirety of the Marvel verse. You act as if Death had a choice and could have resisted if she wanted. It was already established that Beyonder was millions of times more powerful than the collective abstracts and her submitting to Beyonder’s will doesn‘t even change the fact that he can kill the concept of death. I don’t even know why you brought this up. Was this suppose to be an attempt at downplaying? What does her being impressive have to do with anything? This feat is to highlight that Beyonder operates on a conceptual level too. Show me DC’s death doing anything impressive if that’s how you want to play. I love how you Lucifer supporters always bring up him being superior to death but when it’s pointed out that so is Beyonder, now all of a sudden it’s not a combat applicable feat.

We are talking about physics. like Time, Causality, Particles, Molecules, Mathematics. this is all Beyonder has demonstrated.

I like how you acknowledge his conceptual feat in your first paragraph and then pretend that it doesn’t exist in the next paragraph. Your commitment to playing ignorant is almost commendable.

Marvel's Top Tiers are functions inside a Multiverse of Physics-Space-Time. as outlined by Ultimate Ultimates. What you speak of is Higher-Dimensional physiology.

Except Oblivion isn‘t who was less than an ant compared to Beyonder. It’s funny how you tried to argue in another post that later stories couldn’t effect earlier stories if a statement wasn’t made during that time but now you flip the script when it’s convenient for your argument.

Infinity and Eternity are both embodiments of Space-Time, you know, physics, science definition. They cannot transcend themselves (lol).

and Living Tribunal transcended them all at the time who was also massively dwarfed in power by Beyonder so moot point.

Being beyond physical form does not mean you are beyond PhysicsSpaceTime while Lucifer existed when those things didn't even exst yet.

I think you are confusing physics with physical.

That’s true but still doesn’t change the fact that LT had transcended them during that era and was still powerless compared to Beyonder plus we’ve seen Master Hate, Lord Order and Galactus fight on a conceptual level as well.

Like I care if you do not think Lucifer is as strong as I make him out to be? you are a Marvel fan. you are entitled to your opinion.

But I also don't think Beyonder is as strong as you lot make him out to be either. and I am setting out to prove this BEYONDER STOMPS EVERYONE IN FICTION lie that your kind has perpetuated for at least a decade.

I am neither DC nor Marvel fan, these two comics produce garbage retcon stories whilst you are bound by the DC vs Marvel dichotomy.

lmao you care enough to post from alts to help strengthen your arguments and I’m well aware that Marvel and DC comics are trash now, you don’t need to tell me buddy and I’m not bound by anything. I visit this site once in a blue moon to fuck with people, mainly weebs and DCucks since they’re the most sensitive

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etriel

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#310  Edited By etriel

@stezzy:

Beyonder was already too powerful for the entirety of the Marvel verse. You act as if Death had a choice and could have resisted if she wanted. It was already established that Beyonder was millions of times more powerful than the collective abstracts and her submitting to Beyonder’s will doesn‘t even change the fact that he can kill the concept of death.

Beyonder erasing a concept is something i acknowledged and even argued for, even before you crawled into this forum.

Its just that his methods of doing it are unusable in a fight, IE, he exhausted most of his power just erasing a concept.

Beyonder has no evidence to back that he can erase concepts at a snap of his finger. Nor the concept of death he erased, only managed the functions of death within a baseline Infinite multiverse.

Except Oblivion isn‘t who was less than an ant compared to Beyonder. It’s funny how you tried to argue in another post that later stories couldn’t effect earlier stories if a statement wasn’t made during that time but now you flip the script when it’s convenient for your argument.

Oblivion is not an entity of the Multiverse and is non-existence and up to that point of Marvel's history literally had no feats. He even considered himself separate from those abstracts as part of the Multiversal drama while he had nothing.

Beyonder is only greater than things of existence. you attempting to scale Beyonder to him is extremely fallacious.

nextly, as of Marvel's more recent history after the CC retcons of Beyonder, Oblivion isnt even the absence of everything. he is confirmed to contain a Temporal dimension inside him by Marvel's data descriptions, and he even admitted to having "form" and there was even a scan where an avatar of Oblivion admitted that Oblivion can be destroyed with prep and he was even stalemated by an M-Body of infinity in his own dimension.

and Living Tribunal transcended them all at the time who was also massively dwarfed in power by Beyonder so moot point.

LT is an entity who embodied a Multiverse just as Eternity and Infinity are extensions of him as confirmed before LT was killed (and even then, when LT was killed, this didnt even destroy Marvel's Multiverse). nextly, the reformation of a Multiversal Space-Time literally conceptually warps the hierarchy of Marvel and there are several statements of LT existing inside a Multiverse rather.

He hardly transcends the system of his Multiverse and he never did.

You appear to also forget that all of Marvel's abstracts were BTFOD by the Beyonders who are constrained by linear time. Meaning Living Tribunal is vulnerable to attacks that are linear time-based.

Anywho, Space-Time embodying (which is the feat of LT and Eternity and Infinity) is literally Kismet level at best as she is the Concept of Space-Time, and she is literally the low shit-tier of DC's hierarchy.

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Omega_Beams

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seriously this is Mismatch this already been done INB4 Lock

Beyonder kills himself because Lucifer Morningstar say's so

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OnlyOneEmpereor

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Still Lucifer.

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MichaelJulius

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x2

seriously this is Mismatch this already been done INB4 Lock

Beyonder kills himself because Lucifer Morningstar say's so

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TheAnimal666

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Lucifer has no feats matching the one Beyonder has, not even using the power of Michael...

Beyonder steamrolls him.

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ShadowRazer24

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#315  Edited By ShadowRazer24

Lucifer

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MichaelJulius

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#316  Edited By MichaelJulius

Let's drop a logic bomb.

Mr. Mxyzptlk has the power of literal infinite Imagination. With the smartest being in DC (12th level intellect), who has seen most of the God's as calculated their power, agreeing with the statement he has Infinite power.

No Caption Provided

Dream of the Endless is what fuels the 5th dimension and even though non-canon, Mxzyptlk used the concept of Dream of the Endless to do what Mxyzptlk could not. Even the authors know Dream can "steam roll" over Myxzptlk any time he wishes.

No Caption Provided

Lucifer > Dream of the Endless.

No Caption Provided

Conclusion?

Mxyzptlk > Beyonder because infinite reality warping means diddly compared to infinite imagination

Dream > Mxyzptlk because Dream is what gives Imps their power to begin with

Lucifer > Dream because even dream says he can't touch Lucifer

Thusly Lucifer > Beyonder by 3 tiers of infinity.

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Stezzy

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@michaeljulius: Yet Mxy jobs to Trigon who Beyonder would have one shotted. Spamming the word infinite at any given opportunity does not make a character any stronger than what their limits have shown.

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MichaelJulius

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Trigon scares Angels and is part of something holy/divine. A reality warper/imagination based character should not be able to easily defeat something that uses divine magic. Spamming your thoughts on something without proving doesn't make your statement valid.

@stezzy said:

@michaeljulius: Yet Mxy jobs to Trigon who Beyonder would have one shotted. Spamming the word infinite at any given opportunity does not make a character any stronger than what their limits have shown.

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Stezzy

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@michaeljulius:

Trigon scares Angels and is part of something holy/divine.

That’s pretty vague. What’s so great about DC’s no name angels that scaring them is a high level feat? If I recall, the angels are also scared of Lobo.

A reality warper/imagination based character should not be able to easily defeat something that uses divine magic.

How did you come to this conclusion? I’m going to need a citation on that because that sounds like a rule you just made up. Besides, why would a character who you claim has infinite imagination/reality warping powers be kept in check by such an arbitrary system?

Spamming your thoughts on something without proving doesn't make your statement valid.

I didn’t state any opinions, I merely pointed out the fact that Mxy, a guy you tried to imply is stronger than Beyonder has underperformed against a character who’s most noteworthy feat is a statement of him conquering a thousand dimensions of unknown sizes.

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MichaelJulius

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#320  Edited By MichaelJulius

I respect your view, but I don't see any valid logic in saying Trigon is just a normal entity. The guy is tied to God. He isn't a normal magic wielder and just like many other characters, he has some immunity to reality warping and other types of Magic.

The Power of GOD is not normal. It is divine. Lucifer doesn't use magic as his primary offense. He uses the power God gifted him. Divinity > everything else in the narratives of DC/Vertigo when referencing the creations of God/The Presence and his domain.

Mxyzptlk uses Magic and Imagination. Trigon uses a divinely inspired type of magic. The Beyonder is a particle physics manipulator. These are all completely different types of power. Some have weaknesses to other types of powers. Some are totally immune to others. Some have absolute authority over the others.

@stezzy said:

@michaeljulius:

Trigon scares Angels and is part of something holy/divine.

That’s pretty vague. What’s so great about DC’s no name angels that scaring them is a high level feat? If I recall, the angels are also scared of Lobo.

A reality warper/imagination based character should not be able to easily defeat something that uses divine magic.

How did you come to this conclusion? I’m going to need a citation on that because that sounds like a rule you just made up. Besides, why would a character who you claim has infinite imagination/reality warping powers be kept in check by such an arbitrary system?

Spamming your thoughts on something without proving doesn't make your statement valid.

I didn’t state any opinions, I merely pointed out the fact that Mxy, a guy you tried to imply is stronger than Beyonder has underperformed against a character who’s most noteworthy feat is a statement of him conquering a thousand dimensions of unknown sizes.

@stezzy said:

@michaeljulius:

Trigon scares Angels and is part of something holy/divine.

That’s pretty vague. What’s so great about DC’s no name angels that scaring them is a high level feat? If I recall, the angels are also scared of Lobo.

A reality warper/imagination based character should not be able to easily defeat something that uses divine magic.

How did you come to this conclusion? I’m going to need a citation on that because that sounds like a rule you just made up. Besides, why would a character who you claim has infinite imagination/reality warping powers be kept in check by such an arbitrary system?

Spamming your thoughts on something without proving doesn't make your statement valid.

I didn’t state any opinions, I merely pointed out the fact that Mxy, a guy you tried to imply is stronger than Beyonder has underperformed against a character who’s most noteworthy feat is a statement of him conquering a thousand dimensions of unknown sizes.

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Germangod1

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Lucy oneshots without trying

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Y3kthunder

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@michaeljulius: 2 quick questions you once said that the unexpected is non canon can you send me a link to that an my next one is whats your opinion on the void of vertigo its infinite an eternal void of nothingness. It's often referrenced as the void or thw void beyond creation you your said dc is that creation so what's this void no monitor supporter has been able to state what it is so what do you believe

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Y3kthunder

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@michaeljulius: oh an lucifer says he can see creations rise an fall when he waas out in this void

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MichaelJulius

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#324  Edited By MichaelJulius

The Issue of Non-Canon and Canon doesn't matter in Grant's Cosmology. Hypertime according to Grant Morrison is literal DC Canon and you can get to new canons and non canons, as well as Marvel Crossover stories, through his Hypertime lanes.

The void of Vertigo is the empty spaces between Creations of The Presence. You are correct and so is everyone else who states this. There is an eternal void in which the Presence uses his power to generate Creations inside of. Lucifer left the Presences creation, flew through the Void and in later stories made his own creations out in the void. This Void, is not the comic book page.

Monitor Mind is literally the comic book page. The Presence's Void is contained in the narratives of DC, below Limbo. Look at the cosmic map, Manifest DC Stops at Limbo. The comic book narrative stops there. And Grant confirms this in an interview.

Lucifer and The Presence dancing around Vertigo's Void has nothing to do with Monitor Mind. One is a Void in which creations are founded on. The other is the literal comic book page itself that the stories of DC and Vertigo are drawn on.

@y3kthunder said:

@michaeljulius: 2 quick questions you once said that the unexpected is non canon can you send me a link to that an my next one is whats your opinion on the void of vertigo its infinite an eternal void of nothingness. It's often referrenced as the void or thw void beyond creation you your said dc is that creation so what's this void no monitor supporter has been able to state what it is so what do you believe

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Stezzy

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TheAnimal666

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#326  Edited By TheAnimal666

I'm done being serious in that thread...

LUFIFER MORFNINGFFTAR ! >_<

(but Beyonder ftill winfs)

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Y3kthunder

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@michaeljulius: ok so heres another question to you if vertigo is apart of hypertime an you said the presence created dc how can that be? Also did you know that during the time that final crisis was written dan didio stated vertigo wasn't apart of the 52 multiverses what so you to that

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MichaelJulius

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It comes from a bias, such as the user who put these images into the vsbattles wiki

Monitor references don't exist in Vertigo, but these specific users refuse to accept that The Presence and all of his creations are just narratives written into DC Comics. Lucifer and the story of the Presence are not Meta, they don't pop out of the comic book. They are not above DC comics in a literal sense. They are narratives, ink and text drawn on the comic book.

The Story of Monitor Mind is that the literal comic page The Presence and everything else in DC and Vertigo was drawn and written on, suddenly appeared sentient. It did not approve the authors drawing on it. So, it made a concept to go contain it (The CAS) and it gave itself a name, and purpose to go Investigate it (Dax/Mandrakk)

That's the story of Superman Beyond and it has nothing to do with The Presence's Void down there in the ink on top of the Over Void. I feel like there are a lot of users who just fail to see that or just flat out refuse to accept it. Which is why I debate this so much, the level is misinformation and misconception is more intense with this comic than any other comic in history.

@michaeljulius: oh an lucifer says he can see creations rise an fall when he waas out in this void

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MichaelJulius

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#329  Edited By MichaelJulius

The Presence didn't create DC at all. The Authors of DC did. The Presence is not the comic book page that DC is written into. If the authors want it, they can send The Presence to Limbo and retcon him. The Presence, Pralaya, Perpetua, etc, did not create DC Comics. They created the multiverse that is written of in DC Comics.

There is an infinite difference between the comic page itself looking at the ink drawn on it (The Presence and everyone else)

And the ink (The Presence, and everyone else) drawn on the comic page.

Here is a great reference for you about the latest cosmology. Here are the authors of the new cosmology, Snyder and James Tynnion discussing that their entire story is another Hypertime lane. My theory on this is 100% validated. Morrison Hypertime contains all of this.

Loading Video...

DC and Vertigo merged, they are one entity now. All the Vertigo characters are listed by name on the Morrison Cosmic Map. Dream was a huge part of Dark Knight: Metal. They are all in the same cosmology in general. I'm not sure what you mean by Vertigo wasn't a part of the story, can you explain what you mean?

@y3kthunder said:

@michaeljulius: ok so heres another question to you if vertigo is apart of hypertime an you said the presence created dc how can that be? Also did you know that during the time that final crisis was written dan didio stated vertigo wasn't apart of the 52 multiverses what so you to that

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Y3kthunder

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@michaeljulius: according to this interview with dan in 08 when final crisis was written towards the bottom he says vertigo isn't apart of the new 52 multiverse. https://web.archive.org/web/20080513024934/https://www.newsarama.com/dcnew/Wondercon08/DCNation.html

Isnt hypertime referencing the world's in the orrey of worlds if the presence exists only in there how could he be the creator of the multiverse which is was I was getting at before an would that not make him an the like of the angels far below the likes of beyonder an MM an such also whats your thought on the leviathan of the unwritten published by vertigo.

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MichaelJulius

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#331  Edited By MichaelJulius

Countdown to Final Crisis and Death of the New Gods are the only legit non-canon comics Grant and Dan wrote. This real world talk is not a legit argument that others may have. Business is business and this Hypertime is a fun way to integrate all stories into DC without causing problems. Again, Grant explains this on video.

Loading Video...

If DC as a business really wants to undo something or remove a story, they can, because comics are comics and business is business. If Grant really wants to remove something or rewrite, he does. And he did that with Countdown and Death of the New Gods, they are not part of DC at all.

In 2008, Grant got permission to use The Endless in his story. I've posted videos of him talking about this before.

No Caption Provided

Grants Hypertime isn't the same as the current version of it in Scott Snyder's. Tynnion seems to get this, he calls his entire cosmology another Hypertime lane you can get to through Bleedspace. That entire cosmology is another DC Canon.

Hypertime has nothing to do with The Presence in Morrisons cosmology. Hypertime lets you go to different literal canons and noncanon crossovers.

IMO, the Leviathan is under the control of Dream of the Endless. That's my opinion. It also has nothing to do with Hypertime and is not above DC Canon/Vertigo Canon. Its another plot point in another cosmology, another Multiverse of DC's Hypertime.

There is only one set of beings who view all of Hypertime and are unaffected by canon shifts.

No Caption Provided
No Caption Provided

We have Scott Snyder on Video saying there are things beyond The Presence, lets go there and see. Whats beyond the Source Wall in his Dark Knight Metal series? Monitors :\ No amazing Source, the Source Wall has nothing to do with The Presence in this cosmology.

Nil monitors exist past the Source Wall originally anyway.

Loading Video...

The evidence, the OBJECTIVE information is beyond overwhelming.

@y3kthunder said:

@michaeljulius: according to this interview with dan in 08 when final crisis was written towards the bottom he says vertigo isn't apart of the new 52 multiverse. https://web.archive.org/web/20080513024934/https://www.newsarama.com/dcnew/Wondercon08/DCNation.html

Isnt hypertime referencing the world's in the orrey of worlds if the presence exists only in there how could he be the creator of the multiverse which is was I was getting at before an would that not make him an the like of the angels far below the likes of beyonder an MM an such also whats your thought on the leviathan of the unwritten published by vertigo.

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TheVoidofDeath

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@michaeljulius: I scale Trigon and Raven at the same type which I found out Raven's soul self is a nexus of all reality .... and she's many times she's nothing compared to her father but can destroy universes and more.

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MichaelJulius

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#333  Edited By MichaelJulius

Absolutely correct. In raw power, Trigon is up there no doubt. Can he destroy as much as Mxyzptlk? No. But, his power is divinely inspired and he has some immunity to Imp power . And that is logical. Imagine if you found yourself with the power to warp reality and you are out one day strolling along and the real Michael, The archangel of the Bible, comes down out of nowhere and wants to talk to you.

Do you think your reality warping power of particle physics and magic will even remotely affect God's angel? It won't. Divine power will always beat reality warping. Trigon is not a normal magical entity. His magic is derived from something biblical, holy, demonic in biblical nature, inspired by angelic powers. I think Trigon is very underestimated by the community. This raw power isn't anything special, but his immunity to high tier reality warping and other normal types of magic is very special.

@thevoidofdeath said:

@michaeljulius: I scale Trigon and Raven at the same type which I found out Raven's soul self is a nexus of all reality .... and she's many times she's nothing compared to her father but can destroy universes and more.

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Y3kthunder

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@michaeljulius: ok so what level on the map would one have to view hypertime is it the nil is that the only place. Can I see those videos about the permission I posted that scan cause it was said by dan didio dcs co ceo. An what on your thoughts about holly black then saying that the presence of dc is different than vertigo. I asked about the leviathan cause the story of the unwritten is very meta physics heavy story an in such case they mentioned superman as just that a story the significance of this is that the world it takes place in is a representation of our world in which they view stories such as superman as just that. But its base heavy around the leviathan an you just said not that long ago the dream lucifer presence etc were not meta would being above the beast not make them so?

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TheVoidofDeath

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@michaeljulius: @y3kthunder: TheMonitor rated him and the Spectre in the same exact tier... and then Raven with her telemptahic powers told us of Trigons invasions of universes falling under his might, and his invasion of earth.

Regarding Raven, within realms of her soul-self lies the nexus of all realities. We saw a 10-year-old Raven manifest her soul-self for the first time in Azarath when her father came to claim her for the first time. When we first met Raven again when she was 18 .. she didn't know how to use her abilities until midpoint... and then we started to see her telepathically/ empathically resist Trigon for years. In addition to this , we saw her tank hits for zauriel (that sword cuz interdimensional rifts etc ..) The only downside is she's not willing to tap into those abilities in battle... unless she's pushed. However, after 2003 we got a new writer and her abilities weren't really used as we saw in 1980- 2003 ... but at the end early mid 2000's we saw her prob a weakened Trigons mind ... which is universal (at the weakest).. and we saw her bust her brothers which had enough power to bust a universe...

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MichaelJulius

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#337  Edited By MichaelJulius

@thevoidofdeath: It is important to note though that COIE Monitors are not the same Monitors as Nil Monitors, Mandrakk, CaS and Over Monitor. COIE Monitors are part of the narrative of DC Comics and were already there in the Flaw when Over Monitor noticed them.

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@y3kthunder:

ok so what level on the map would one have to view hypertime is it the nil is that the only place.

- The Presence and everyone else can be retconned, so that puts them below Limbo. You can't get to Limbo unless the Editors or Writer let you, and Monitors are supposed to be analogues for Editors.

Can I see those videos about the permission I posted that scan cause it was said by dan didio dcs co ceo.

-The video content is over an hour long and its inside of his long documentary called Supergods. I mean...I really don't want to watch it all just to find it, when you have the text version of it posted here already. Dan DiDio also let Grant make his own cosmology. Again, Dan is right here because the Vertigo Merger didn't happen until 2018. Now, it is part of DC. And in 2008, Grant got rights to The Endless to include in his DC Cosmology. Vertigo itself as a fictive publication was not yet part of DC. It is now though.

An what on your thoughts about holly black then saying that the presence of dc is different than vertigo.

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Her Lucifer series pre-dates the Vertigo merger by more than two years. At this time, she was correct. Right now, her entire canon is absorbed into DC Comics officially. And as mentioned, Snyders entire canon is another Hyperspace Lane, so that would make Holly's canon its own Hyperspace lane.

I asked about the leviathan cause the story of the unwritten is very meta physics heavy story an in such case they mentioned superman as just that a story the significance of this is that the world it takes place in is a representation of our world in which they view stories such as superman as just that. But its base heavy around the leviathan an you just said not that long ago the dream lucifer presence etc were not meta would being above the beast not make them so?

This is both correct and not. The real world analogue has been a part of the DC orrery since the Beginning. The Flash visited our world, Superboy Prime is from our world, but the legacy of "the real world" was changed in Morrison's cosmology to a place where there are no super heroes. Nothing fantastical. Its the actual real world according to him and not a place that can birth super powered beings because we cant do that in our real world. That is what sets Grants "Earth 33" apart from the other versions of "the real world".

More details on this, in my thread, here is a clip from it about "the real world" analogue:

Perpetua and her Monitor sons (who are not connnected to Nil Monitors seen above and that are a different sect of Monitors) have no idea how Earth 33 was made, or why it is there.

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Further still, Dr. Manhattan hasn't the slightest idea how this is even possible.

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It doesn't end there, even Scott Snyders "canon" Mandrakk has no idea what is really happening. Here in The Unexpected, he references the newest addition to The Orrery, Earth Prime, and is suprised by it.

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In Morrison cosmology, Earth Prime is Earth 33, the center of the Multiverse.

In the Multiversity, Earth 33 is our real world.

In The Unexpected series, Monitors don't know much about Earth Prime. Mandrakk is shocked by its existence.

In JLA 2018+ yet a different canon from Scott Snyder, Earth Prime is back to being the center of the Multiverse.

In Doomsday Clock, Dr. Manhattan visits Earth Prime and realizes its the center of the Multiverse.

Confused? You should be.

Originally, Earth 33 was our real world and that is where Ultra Comics came from. It was our real world analogue as per the story. Read this article and interview, here it states that Grant wants Earth 33 to be Earth Prime with a new title.

Morrison's Earth 33 is the only accurate representation of a "real world". No heroes, nothing fancy. No reality warping. Its legit where he is from and its where the comic of The empty hand came from and invaded the DC Orrery.

Nix Uotan was required to tote this "god" from another fiction around because this "god" from our real world couldn't do it himself. That is why I back Monitors so vividly. Hope that explains its. It gets confusing. The Empty hand isnt just a God.

He consumed his entire fiction, so its like someone from Marvel consuming literally marvel comics itself, not just the characters, but the comic pages, the entire fiction. He ate his own fiction and became the fiction. He is a mini Over Void in that regard.

Still couldn't touch Nix, the weakest Monitor. That is why God beings from other fictions cannot even touch a Nil monitor. You need to literally consume your entire fiction and become the Meta fiction itself, the literal narratives and more, before you can even begin to worry Nix Uotan.

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Y3kthunder

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@michaeljulius: ok I get you now makes sense thanks for answering my questions

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TheAnimal666

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@y3kthunder: You should better read the Unexpected and other comics than listening to that poster.

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TheVoidofDeath

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#341  Edited By TheVoidofDeath

@y3kthunder: You guys were talking about Trigon .. which happens to be my area of expertise ... besides Rae/Beyonder...

Anywho, I don't like placing Lucifer or the Beyonder because too much of wanking on both sides happen .. We know the Beyonder see's an infinite-dimensional layered multiverse as a droplet... we know he's above pretty much every character in marvel...(Toaa I can't really comment on because h isn't omnipotent I think.. but then again someone made a whole blog on amino trying to prove me wrong)... Beyonder I think would be above creation as we may get.

Beyonder has not really destroyed an infinite multiverse directly, only half Multiversal feats do Beyonder have, and yes, Beyonder did not create the Marvel Multiverse, but it is irrelevant if he, theoretically has the power to recreate it over and over anyway. It does not matter. And consider how massive he is... Kind of like why Raven hasn't destroyed universes ... that crap is not in her character , but from scaling to Trigon we know she freaking can.

And given his size and power stated behind it, it doesn't really matter anyway in the end. He hasn't destroyed Marvel, because that's not in his character. The entire story of Beyonder is him contemplating whether or not to destroy the Multiverse and everyone is trying to either appease him or mess around with him. He doesn't need to do anything to prove it, his existence and status alone is enough. The context of the story narrative proves that he is above Creation.

No different from Lucy , is, who is above the concepts of time, space, destruction, dreams, etc. who are the Endless.

Both Lucifer and Beyonder are beings that happen to be greater than Infinite Dimensional Multiverses and high-level Multiversal beings. They both roughly equal.

@michaeljulius Right, forgive me I forgot about that ... whoops ....

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Y3kthunder

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@thevoidofdeath: oh no I was just asking him a few questions trigon wasn't me.

Though I respect your opinion the only reason I gave my vote to the morningstar is cause I saw his feats as being better. I found a strength durability speed an intelligence of course that were in my eyes superior to that of the beyonders thats why I ever vote lucifer in the first place

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@theanimal666: well I know of final crisis an a few tie ons to that theres the unexpected an multiversity i believe is there any others I should read?

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TheAnimal666

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@y3kthunder: Just everything this guy is posting.
Check the sources. :)

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#345  Edited By MichaelJulius

The Unexpected isn't part of Final Crisis. Only the Multiversity is, its Final Crisis part 2. And yes, please check all of them. The Unexpected is a tie in with Dark Knight Metal.

Final Crisis, the entire series. The Multiversity. Dark Knight Metal. The Unexpected. JLA 2018. All what is important at the moment.

"Just everything this guy is posting" He means:

  • author statement snap shots
  • snaps from the actual comic book
  • timeline notes from editors
  • Guidebook entries
@y3kthunder said:

@theanimal666: well I know of final crisis an a few tie ons to that theres the unexpected an multiversity i believe is there any others I should read?

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@michaeljulius:

infinite reality warping? Infinite imagination? seems like some buzzwords for something that is not there in any reality of these comics. None of these characters have inifinite anything because they are not omnipotent.

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Y3kthunder

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#348  Edited By Y3kthunder

@michaeljulius: ok guess its time I started on that is there a specific reading order an could you plox pm the interview statements etc it'll take a while to comb through it all but I'll do it

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#349  Edited By Yasindermann

@direflash: ''Infinite reality warping'', etc. are just givin definitions to the powersets of a certain character, meaning they hold validity, as long as someone describes them.

In fiction, there are relative infinities and bigger infinities, because it's fiction, the realm of imagination where things can get illogical. But this doesn't reffer to truly infinity, a.k.a omnipotence. Something like ''infinity physics warping'' isn't gonna harm a being unbound by physical laws, etc. There is surperiority by feats anywhere in fiction.

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Looking back Lucifer feats pale in comparison to Beyonders. I mean at least Beyonder actually does something on a multiversal scale whereas Lucifer just lives by statements and his actual feats are rather weak. The more recent Lucifer comics even made me even more sure of that. I don't know in a fight who would actually win because abstracts like these two have abilities that become too incalculable for determining how a fight would go down. But if it came to who has better feats, Beyonder has Lucifer beat.

Boy, have the tables really turned. It seems like the majority in this cite favors Lucifer over Beyonder now when it used to be the opposite back then.