Lucifer Morningstar Vs Beyonder

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DamnINeedABreak

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Poll: Lucifer Morningstar Vs Beyonder (119 votes)

Lucifer Morningstar 71%
Beyonder 29%

The Morningstar Vs The Omnipotent One

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Transcendlimitless

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@stezzy: There was literally no evidance that these universes were infinite.

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Mister_Surreal

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For the 500th time, Lucifer wins.

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wwwwwwwwww

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At this point meh i will side with whoever wins

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Haddockus

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#154  Edited By Haddockus

Beyonder is just scaling to Infinite Universe+ level, a Universe that is divided into infinity tiny parts. Nothing more, nothing less.

In fact, destroying 1 Universe that is Infinite >>>>>>>>>>>> Infinite Tiny Dimensions of Marvel Secret Wars Multiverse

because Beyonder is only capable of shaking infinity when the Infinity is divided into infinity tiny parts, but not when whole.

Beyonder is so fodder level, I cannot believe that this forum propagated such lies for such a long long time. He can literally be soloed by any Multi-Infinite-Universal or even Haxxed Infinite-Universe busters.

Beyonder's best feat is "MULTIVERSE SHAKING"

Because Multiverse Shakey Shakes will affect Lucifer, right. I wonder if Beyonder Supporters shakey shake their heads, thinking shaking is the answer to everything in life.

We should rename Beyonder to Shakeybuster, because that is all he can do. Shakey Shakes, no 100% Multiverse Erasing feats, whatsoever.

So if I shake a brick wall, does that mean I can destroy a wall with strength? According to his supporters, yes. I mean, using how the logic in how they wank Beyonder. Or Shakeyonder,

In fact, that feat of Beyonder "causing Multiversal destruction" is very nebulous because we only see him destroy planets/galaxies inside Universes, but he doesn't erase the Space-Time. Beyonder only has infinite range, but no total infinity destruction/erasure.

Quality > Quantity.

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wwwwwwwwww

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Beyonder is just Universe+ level, a Universe that is divided into infinity tiny parts. Nothing more, nothing less.

i am having some flashbacks with this one lol

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Stezzy

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@transcendlimitless: Parallel universes in Marvel are the same size as earth 616 (the main universe) but they’re split at a certain point in time which causes different outcomes like what if Tony Stark was an evil tyrant(age of ultron reference). The alternative universes are identical to earth 616 because they basically are earth 616 but split off into another direction. Why do you assume earth 616 clones are smaller. Where is this “factual evidence” you speak of that says parallel universes aren’t infinite?

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Haddockus

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#157  Edited By Haddockus

@stezzy said:

@transcendlimitless: Parallel universes in Marvel are the same size as earth 616 (the main universe) but they’re split at a certain point in time which causes different outcomes like what if Tony Stark was an evil tyrant(age of ultron reference). The alternative universes are identical to earth 616 because they basically are earth 616 but split off into another direction. Why do you assume earth 616 clones are smaller. Where is this “factual evidence” you speak of that says parallel universes aren’t infinite?

Wut?

Parallel universes during Marvel's secret wars are addressed as layers, literally, layers, one on top of each other each with a relationship of distance to the other layer. (lolwut) which is not Quantum like at all. There is no evidence of a Quantum/Split Relationship during Secret Wars Multiverse considering they work in an alien system not like a Quantum system. and for that matter, you do not even have evidence that 616 was Infinite during this time of Marvel's pre-retcon history of Beyonder.

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Stezzy

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@mister_surreal: I don’t care if Lucifer does win but people calling Beyonder universal level is just downright baffling considering he dwarfed LT at the time who was the overseer of multiple multiverses during the time

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Haddockus

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#159  Edited By Haddockus

Using scans from post-Retcon Beyonder era of Marvel? When only afterLT didn't got his best feats? You do realize that is literally post-retcon Beyonder as a cosmic cube in that scan ryt? hilarious. You are aware, you cannot use this to scale to pre-retcon Beyonder right?

And Infinite Multiverses does not even mean, Instant/Infinitely/Continious Quantum Multiplying Multiverse, only Infinite Multiverses with no evidence of multiplication.

@stezzy said:

@mister_surreal: I don’t care if Lucifer does win but people calling Beyonder universal level is just downright baffling considering he dwarfed LT at the time who was the overseer of multiple multiverses during the time

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Stezzy

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@haddockus: Do you even know what a parallel universe is? You can’t have a parallel universe without a quantum split that’s why they call them parallel/alternative universes and you missed the part where Beyonder hit Molecule Man with an attack that reached the end of infinity which took place in earth 616. Earth 616 is infinite and so are the universes that branched from it. Im actually starting to think youre just trolling at this point, if so congrats man you got me.

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Strike3

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Beyonder. Lucifer would need Michael to be a universal scale reality warper.

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christianrapper

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Battles involving omnipotent characters are banned for a reason.

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Transcendlimitless

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@stezzy said:

@haddockus: Do you even know what a parallel universe is? You can’t have a parallel universe without a quantum split that’s why they call them parallel/alternative universes and you missed the part where Beyonder hit Molecule Man with an attack that reached the end of infinity which took place in earth 616. Earth 616 is infinite and so are the universes that branched from it. Im actually starting to think youre just trolling at this point, if so congrats man you got me.

Expect that writers don't know what dimensions are and that some fictional verse that run on a infinite multiverse often don't use quantum splits/splits that split into another timeline. Not every multiversal setting runs on quantum splits and a type 3 multiverse. Secret wars didn't have something like that to that time. It wasn't even mentioned.

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Stezzy

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Stop replying to me you clown. PR Beyonder and LT were multiversal whether you and your alt like it or not.

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TakenStew22

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Who the f%$k just said Beyonder is only universal?

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DamnINeedABreak

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@rabumalal: fine lets do it by feat

Power

Luci is nigh omnipotent only thing holding him back is creating something from nothing yet he could of done that if he uses his own energy.

Beyonder powerful guy in a weak universe back in 1984 no one including TLT was powerful

Speed

Luci Omnipresent or He could fly around a planet before his image leaves your eye or blink 20 billion years in DC Multiverse

Beyonder no sigh only omnipresent in the beyond realm

Intellgence

Luci no one other than his father and even escape Yahweh Great Plan

Beyonder overly curious and didn't know the Marvel multiverse existed had the mind of a child

What they have done

Beyonder

Kill Death( not impressive condersing she didn't have feats other than be death in 1984 and she way weaker than vertigo death)

Molecule Man( Impressive)

millions of times more powerful than the Marvel multiverse( not impressive considering almost everyone was not what they were back then)

God before Genesis( OAA didn't exist then)

Lucifer

Destroyed The Mansion Of Silence ( contained mirror of creation that was universe and deminisions all refelecting off of each other in a infinte vast space of room in every story line)

Obliverate The Logos ( the direct place where it contains gods word and your connection to talk to him impossible to break unless your outerversal)

Michael Demiurgos ( his demiurgic power is the building block for everything Time,Dream,Cosmic,and Primordial Power which literally means everything and Molecule Man power would fall under this lol) BTW Michael is infinite raw power

Literally above deminisons bond by no laws. Flew in the Overvoid, Bullies the endless, gave a man a heart attack from 2 universe away, and is the light of pure where god told it to shine)

Oh yeah Luci has the Will Of God no matter who your are if you do not have infinite to tank it you'll die. Michael is the only expection. Beyonder is powerful, but he is not infinite as we see Doom stole his power he was out tricked and he could die

Luci will him out of existence.

Beyonder is overhyped

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GodOfEmotions

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this was done multiple times already and Lucifer wins

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Lucano

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Y3kthunder

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@lucano: eh maybe I am getting up there in age 69 years an still kicking so dont get mouthy with me whiper snapper I dont care who queefed in your cornflakes I just saw the shadowrazer part

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Supermanfan1938

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You can't expect TOAA Slayers like Lucifer and Cosmic Armor Superman to not win against Beyonder.

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DamnINeedABreak

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Haddockus

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#172  Edited By Haddockus

@takenstew22 said:

Who the f%$k just said Beyonder is only universal?

Because Universe and Multiverse are nebulous terms that really don't mean that much on their own in these debates. This is something everyone knows, but don't want to admit. I honestly don't care if you think Beyonder is Multiversal or Universal, but the transfinite or bigger infinite size of those Multiverses and the Universes that make up said Multiverse count. They are just label games otherwise.

There are single universes, as big, bigger or transcend a Multiverse in fiction. If not bigger. Perfect example of this in DC are: 6th Dimension, Limbo, Monitor Sphere, etc.

Multiple different Universes are mere separate divisions of Volumes of Space. And its quality varies. There are universes where physics doesn't work, universes where there are "physics" but are laws completely beyond imagination.

Staying on topic.

To think that destroying a Multiverse of finite sized universes, is greater than destroying One Infinite Universe is absurd, intellectually dubious.

Multiverse and Universe are merely configuration of division, they don't make your feats better than a Universe buster of Infinite Size. This is something that always flies over the heads of Marvel debaters and VSbattles alike.

unless you proved that all the Infinite Universes are each Infinite in size, then we can get InfinityXInfinity, but no such thing is proven in Secret Wars.

Any Multiversal feat by Beyonder is as bad as a lowballed Lucifer.

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RampageTheFirst

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Lol at Universal Beyonder...

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TheVoidofDeath

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#174  Edited By TheVoidofDeath

@haddockus: Normally I agree with you , buy I do not agree with you now. In addition to this said , I've had side conversations with you on this. Beyonder is universal.??? No... There are plenty of people including myself that have showed otherwise ... ( Which Mr.Master made clear and you at some point did ...

@brucerogers

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Haddockus

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#175  Edited By Haddockus

@thevoidofdeath said:

@haddockus: Normally I agree with you , buy I do not agree with you now. In addition to this said , I've had side conversations with you on this. Beyonder is universal.??? No... There are plenty of people including myself that have showed otherwise ... ( Which Mr.Master made clear and you at some point did ...

@brucerogers

Nobody is arguing that Beyonder is only Universe level. I am only arguing that Multiverse/Universe feats are extremely nebulous because these sometimes mean nothing. Without the context readily applied for those constructs.

I am only saying that Beyonder's Multiversal feats are only the first level/degree of infinity, with no evidence of it being an infinity of infinities. Like what we will see in Marvel Cosmics later on, as well as DC.

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BruceRogers

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@thevoidofdeath: He isn't universal and infinity is infinity -- limitless, endless etc. I am seeing a lot of meaningless, needlessly convoluted fanspeak here.

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Haddockus

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#177  Edited By Haddockus

@brucerogers said:

@thevoidofdeath: He isn't universal and infinity is infinity -- limitless, endless etc. I am seeing a lot of meaningless, needlessly convoluted fanspeak here.

If infinity is infinity, then why is the Beyond Realm superior to the Marvel Multiverse in size as literally 99% of Marvel multiverse debaters propose? So bigger infinities is not fan speak to the lot of you in fact. It is employed both by DC and Marvel canonically. as what they perceive as valid tiering systems.

It is only debaters like yourself who would rather avoid talking about it, you are the fan speakers. I am only following the logic of both companies and using it against both. Thenwith, extracting the best assumption I can based on the evidence.

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Transcendlimitless

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@brucerogers said:

@thevoidofdeath: He isn't universal and infinity is infinity -- limitless, endless etc. I am seeing a lot of meaningless, needlessly convoluted fanspeak here.

That's an rat tactic to equalize verses. Infinity falls under the concept of imagination, which allows it to have surperior infinity's from fiction to fiction.

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BruceRogers

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@haddockus: Because the Marvel universe isnt infinite? That right there contradicts the very definition of 'infinite'. Something is either infinite or its not -- you cant have it both ways.

Both DC and Marvel throw around words like 'infinite' or 'limitless' without defining them in literal terms. Neither Beyonder nor Lucifer are truly infinite. That would make them omnipotent, which they most assuredly are not.

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BruceRogers

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Transcendlimitless

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@brucerogers said:

@transcendlimitless: That's not how infinity works though...

Yes, but it is, since several fictions use bigger infinities as a concept. There are bigger infinities, since it's the realm of imagination, where things get illogical. It doesn't matter how logical things work in real life, since it's powered by vast abstractism.

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BruceRogers

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@transcendlimitless: Or maybe they just use words like 'limitless', 'infinite', 'omnipotent' etc without meaning it in literal terms.

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Transcendlimitless

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@brucerogers: This is flawed, because that's not how conception in fictional works must work. There are bigger infinity's, which is why debunking ''infinity'' with ''that is bigger than infinity'' is stupid, because it's an fictional non-sense imaginary fictional concept. No low-balling and mental gymnastics here. You're ''muh logic'' is non-sense, when it's several times stated that it's infinity that or infinity that. You're whole argument is based on a logic and reality fallacy, which doesn't apply here.

They use ''bigger infinities'', because it's a concept. It's not something unquantifiable, if a fictional verse uses this.

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dami24434

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Beyonder was never retconned, according to marvel handbooks 2006,i think can't remember the date , he appears as he sees fit and changes reality in the process, he goes from cosmic cube to inhuman to child unit etc...

Still Spiderman and the secret wars showed us Spiderman with portion of beyonder powers recreated all existence in just a nanosecond with no effort.

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RampageTheFirst

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Oml this thread is a shit storm of misinformed users. Now Beyonder was never retconned??? Wtf lol.

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Haddockus

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#187  Edited By Haddockus

Going by only the quantifiable information given to me on Secret Wars, is not misinformed.

Arguing Beyonder has feats of totally erasing an Infinite Multiverse or that he is an infinity beyond a Multiverse (when he was almost killed by a Multiversal attack), is misinformed.

You are all hilariously being delusional, nobody is arguing that Beyonder is restricted to only being able to destroy 1 Universe inside of Marvel's SW/1980 Revision Multiverse. This is literally, liberal levels of fake news, without giving context to my arguments.

But being 'Universe" or "Multiverse" level are nebulous, relative tiers that are fluid in definition, depending on the verse you are talking about. What is Multiversal in Verse A, could be Universe level in Verse B. Simply because cosmologies work differently in different fictions.

There are anime, where Timeline Universes are only Solar System sized universes and are not infinite. There are Universe busters there, but they are only galaxy busters because their Universes are only galaxy sized. And I am certain that the moment these characters would be pitted against their favorite Multiversal character X, that they would literally abide by the same type of arguments I use if I brought it up.

I am not fazed by any of this snobbery because I know you will literally use these same arguments if your favorite Multiversal character gets pitted by the supposed characters I mentioned.

Hilarious.

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IMBatman02

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#188  Edited By IMBatman02

Mistmatch

First of all lucifer never dies even if he is depowered . 2 he can manipulate Beyonder to kill himself even if it was pre rec beyonder he also die so badly beyonder always ends up killing himself .

Lucifer is dimensionless he is above LT and Beyonder

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MichaelJulius

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#189  Edited By MichaelJulius  Online

The Beyonder is literally the dumbest, most inept and easily swindled Cosmic Tier entity to ever exist. He has the I.Q. of that mossy rock over there in the puddle. Lucifer would bend his mind so easily that it really becomes silly when we think about it. His power doesn't even matter in this, The Beyonder is a moron of neigh infinite proportions who was so dumb, that he could go dance on the disco floor and totally almost be murdered by Eternity in a surprise attack.

Lucifer is going to steam roll over The Beyonder without thinking twice and likely make him kill himself. This thread needs to be locked, IMO.

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Transcendlimitless

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@michaeljulius: Beyonder is so stupid, if you would multiply his IQ with infinite, his IQ would still be something with minus. I mean, really, it's funny to read secret wars, but LOL at him being omniscient or something like that.

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Supermanfan1938

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Batman could outwit Beyonder's sub zero IQ ass

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DamnINeedABreak

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