Lucifer Morningstar Vs Beyonder

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DamnINeedABreak

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Poll: Lucifer Morningstar Vs Beyonder (117 votes)

Lucifer Morningstar 70%
Beyonder 30%

The Morningstar Vs The Omnipotent One

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Haddockus

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Pre-Retcon Beyonder is at least, more than One hundred and thirty-three quintillion two hundred quadrillion (133,200,000,000,000,000) times the power of 8 Abstracts (including LT, and who is above Oblivion in destructive power) who are infinitely more powerful than Marvel's Infinite Multiverse, and was probably still immensely so even after he lost most of his power to destroy Death. That is the same number of droplets of water there is, in our ocean.

Pre Retcon Beyond Realm is Like A Big Megaverse over Millions Of Megaverses Which Have Timeless And Spaceless Realms

are you not aware, that you are literally copy pasting this argument from the same guy who argues DC > Marvel many many many times?

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Stezzy

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@haddockus:

there is no statement that the Universes in Marvel's Multiverse during Secret Wars were infinite in size either bud.

We know for a fact that the multiverse as a whole is infinite in size so why wouldn't their universes be infinite? Beyonder was still too big for the multiverse and could destroy it with ease so I don't see what your point is. He can still destroy an infinite multiverse/universes with no problem so what's your point exactly?

and destroying Universes is a physics, space time feat.

and still more impressive than anything Lucifer has ever done on panel. Let me know when Lucifer kills a conceptual being.

while Lucifer exists independently of physics, space, time. And created an Infinitely Sized Multiverse.

so does Dormammu and Umar who are less than ants compared to Beyonder. I still have no idea why you Lucifer supporters keep bringing up him making an infinite multiverse like Marvel's infinite multiverse wasn't already too small for Beyonder. Beyonder doesn't care, he destroys it by walking into it by accident. Lucifer has not shown that scope of power, you just keep going on about how uber and special he is despite his feats being nothing special.

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another thing. any "Multiversal" feat in Secret Wars are all only Infinite Universe level since Infinite Finite Universes = 1 Infinite Universe. get it now?

That's silly considering the fact that it was mentioned that Molecule Man and Beyonder's clash could be felt in every universe. The narrator made it very clear that the entire multiverse was affected by the event. Multiverse=every universe, meaning universes. That's plural for universe, meaning more than one universe. Get it?

you Marvel debaters are not acute in realizing the complexities of power sets and quality, it is not all about BIGGA EXPLOSHUNZ like Marvel debater propaganda makes it out to be. and Lucifer has superior power sets

Ok lets see those power sets then. I don't want another useless monologue about how special he is. Show me.

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Haddockus

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#53  Edited By Haddockus

@stezzy:

You are using backward scaling from a period when Beyonder was retconned to a period when Beyonder WAS NOT retconned?

Stick to Secret Wars scaling bud. And no scaling from future works of Marvel way after Beyonder was retconned.

That is absurd. Dishonest, and unintellectual.

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Haddockus

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#54  Edited By Haddockus

@stezzy said:

@haddockus:

there is no statement that the Universes in Marvel's Multiverse during Secret Wars were infinite in size either bud.

We know for a fact that the multiverse as a whole is infinite in size so why wouldn't their universes be infinite? Beyonder was still too big for the multiverse and could destroy it with ease so I don't see what your point is. He can still destroy an infinite multiverse/universes with no problem so what's your point exactly?

a Multiverse being infinite does not mean its universes are infinite. Many fictions, this is the case.

A Multiverse is infinite because it has an infinity of something finite at least. But it does not mean a Multiverse is an Infinity of Infinity, only 1 level of Infinity.

I dont understand how you cannot grasp simple logic.

And Beyonder has no feats of destroying infinity construct outright. Only statement wank.

By your logic, an Infinite Universe means every thing inside that Universe is infinite, including the planets. But this is not the case.

Something being infinite, does not mean every unit inside it, is Infinite.

This is something not difficult to grasp.

and still more impressive than anything Lucifer has ever done on panel. Let me know when Lucifer kills a conceptual being.

Beyonder killed death because Death let him and drank Beyonder's power which is merely poisonous to her. There is no evidence of a feat that Beyonder can do this directly without consent. And even then, Death only governs the concept of Death in a Level First Infinity construct. And would not apply to Lucifer

Which means nothing. Superman can destroy buildings, but he cannot hurt Casper who is totally intangible.

That's silly considering the fact that it was mentioned that Molecule Man and Beyonder's clash could be felt in every universe. The narrator made it very clear that the entire multiverse was affected by the event. Multiverse=every universe, meaning universes. That's plural for universe, meaning more than one universe. Get it?

That's because you are incapable of comprehending the concept of Quality over Quantity. Feeling the shakes of a Multiverse <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< ACTUALLY Destroying/Erasing a Multiverse.

Ok lets see those power sets then.

Is it not already obvious? Lucifer existed in places beyond space-time. This does not warrant any more explanation.

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ProfessorRespect

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@haddockus: smh Sungsam stop making alts, It's not free real estate

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Haddockus

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@haddockus: smh Sungsam stop making alts, It's not free real estate

You do not want me making alts because you now that you have no arguments against me and everyone knows this.

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KevinFeige

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ProfessorRespect

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@haddockus: Nah man, it's not allowed smh, too many people are banned already, don't need more junk accounts

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ProfessorRespect

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@kevinfeige: I mean, you got banned the first time for silly PM's but that's a different story

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KevinFeige

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@professorrespect: no it was silly questions i asked in off topic

Renchamp got triggered and then rest is history

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LoomingShadows

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Beyonder, lucifer would lose to TL

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Transcendlimitless

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mbatz

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Mismatch

Let me make this clear before I have to bust out the scans

The Beyonder draws power from the realm of The Beyonders where the Beyonders live and are not to be confused with the beyonder

The Beyonders were curious so they staged an experiment to see what would happen if they blew up the multiverse.

They did so by killing each Molecule man of every universe in the multiverse causing universal destruction in each universe hence the multiverse.

Dr. Doom who was observing this hide 616 molecule man, meanwhile the multiverse decided to fight back against the Beyonders, all the abstracts came together to fight the Beyonders and the Living tribunal got one shotted and died.

As the multiverse was almost completely destroyed the Beyonders where also killed by the destruction of the multiverse. So if you look on the Beyonders wiki page were it says Beyonders are deceased just know they killed multiversal entities making there attack potency arguably omniversal but there durability was multiversal.

Beyonders are above the beyonder by feats actually shown on the page whilst beyonder has statements that he’s stronger than LT the Beyonders actually did this so the Beyonders are either greater than or equal to pre-retcon beyonder since they still draw power from the same realm.

Beyonders were killed by multiversal destruction and Lucifer created the DC multiverse in vertigo comics and he’s upper limits are unknown since he broke free from predestination making him as strong as the prescence.

Lucifer wins

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DamnINeedABreak

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@rabumalal: lol marvel then cannot comapre to sandman universe just know that

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DamnINeedABreak

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@haddockus: man i respect u for that and lol thats my point

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DamnINeedABreak

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Soratoumiga

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DamnINeedABreak

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#70  Edited By DamnINeedABreak

@soratoumiga: if death is one of the children of Mother Night and Father Time Then she cannot

Luci deosnt have a soul death cant reap

he is above time and space he not bound to laws

he exist before creation meaning before life

angels are essence without shape u cant destroy the essence there made from because he is pure will

he is the son of god and when mike and luci created the Multiverse death was just a side affect

thatts what he meant by u cant claim him only reason why he was in the sutation was because his power was used angnist him.

he cant die, only destroy by his creator and thats god and death cannot reap a being above it his greater than the angel of death.

only reason why michael died was because elaine drained the demiurgic power off of him only thing keeping him alive

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KevinFeige

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@damnineedabreak: you gonna have a better luck learning astrophysics than argueing with her

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Soratoumiga

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@damnineedabreak:

It was already explained above why Death is above Lucifer, and all of the Endless are definitley above him. Night/Time can also be described as Lucifer's superiors.

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Soratoumiga

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@damnineedabreak: you gonna have a better luck learning astrophysics than argueing with her

Literally no one asked you, stick to making shitty bait threads

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KevinFeige

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#74  Edited By KevinFeige

@soratoumiga said:
@kevinfeige said:

@damnineedabreak: you gonna have a better luck learning astrophysics than argueing with her

Literally no one asked you, stick to making shitty bait threads

keep showing your orgasm on female characters

Also i make shitty bait threads for shitty people like you

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DamnINeedABreak

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@soratoumiga: Lucifer is the most powerful being behind The Presence,elaine,and The Great Evil Beast

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Soratoumiga

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@damnineedabreak: Death already claimed him, lol... Only it wasn't his time to die, so she had to let him go. Elaine sacrificed herself so that Lucifer can survive, I would post scans, but it was pretty much summed up in a previous post.

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DamnINeedABreak

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@soratoumiga: he was trapped not killed the only way to get out was a sacrifice that elaine made his power and michael are above the endless

Luci escape Yahweh Great plan that is escaping pre destanation which is impossible unless ur lucifer

He flew over the void

over the source wall

he does the impossible

the only way to kill luci is if you kill him as a whole death cant reap the will of God the will is what shaped everything

death only came when their was life and luci created life

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Soratoumiga

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@damnineedabreak: Lucifer was literally trapped, he couldn't get out because he was not more powerful than death herself/itself. Death was about to claim him (which both Lucifer and Death confirmed), but she prior to that, said it's not his time yet. Lucifer later on implied how "death" is inevitable when talking to Silk Man, who thought he could cheat death, only to find out that it's impossible. And Death can also go beyond the Source Wall, Void etc, so it's not really impressive that Lucifer can do that.

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DamnINeedABreak

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@soratoumiga: lol im not gonna argue i just cant, but if u want death to be more powerful ill respect that

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Soratoumiga

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DayWalker98

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@haddockus: Yeah that’s why I posted it. I’ve made respect threads on cosmology. I should have quoted him but I don’t know how to through comicvine. The beyonder>owen(infinitely)>LT(who embodies and transcends all the abstracts including true form eternity and oblivion, LT who also transcends the very realm which transcends eternity)>oblivion >eternity(who embodies all creation that includes infinite multiverses/universes/spatial dimensions,worlds,timelines,possible worlds,hells,possibilities etc)

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DayWalker98

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@haddockus: The spaceless time realms did not come from you lol. I have my own cosmology thread on discord with my info. I can come up whith original arguments. Where do you want to start?

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Kurseaboveall

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Lucifer mismatch.

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DayWalker98

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Post Retcon Beyonder was no joke

In F4 1961 annual 27, in his encounter with owen after being unleashed from within kosmos, their battle was on a trans-multiversal scale(meaning it was a beyond multiversal battle)which also vibrated all of creation..not to add that it enabled 2 dimensional beings to become 3 dimensional

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OwenZane

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Transcendlimitless

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Haddockus

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#90  Edited By Haddockus

@daywalker98:

Beyonder described himself as a physics geometric of mathematics. And as a space. You really have no argument over this.

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TheAnimal666

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Beyonder destroys Lucifer, low diff

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KevinFeige

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@haddockus: Why endless > Lucifer

When Beyonder > Endless

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KevinFeige

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#93  Edited By KevinFeige

@soratoumiga: O another thing shove your propaganda in yo ass

You were like a chicken who suddenly becomes a goofy ass lion because sungssam and his alts did the DC defending

You then suddenly pop up out of nowhere to cry like a bitch muh Endless wank

You and Your buddy professor respect has one thing in common both of you think you are some kind of genius but you guys are nothing but jackasses who's brain seems to be shoved in thier asshole

You made bait thread yourself when you didn't have anything to save your shitty claims Rampage

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D_AeroFlame_Z

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Some serious Lucifer downplay.

First, let's go over the DC Multiverse Map.

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We see that within the DC Multiverse Map, the God Sphere is a sphere that is infinitely transcended by the monitor sphere, in the same way that the God Sphere infinitely transcends the base multiverse. The God Sphere, as stated by Batman, is stated to be a platonic realm.

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Platonic Concepts are, inherently, outerversal.

https://www.ellopos.net/elpenor/physis/plato-timaeus/time.asp Forms > Time https://www.ellopos.net/elpenor/physis/plato-timaeus/space.asp Forms > Space https://www.ellopos.net/elpenor/physis/plato-timaeus/genesis.asp Forms are like the blueprint of perfection. https://books.google.com/books?id=jzJnDwAAQBAJ&pg=PA104&lpg=PA104&dq=%22the+mind+in+itself+is+its+own+instrument+for+contemplating+the+common+terms+that+apply+to+everything%22+%22THEAETETUS%22&source=bl&ots=AOosjx9nmv&sig=4PG9Bg7iZ6dbiRBm1YyHDtPUmFA&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwih0sHat6HfAhUHgK0KHddzD0oQ6AEwCXoECAMQAQ#v=onepage&q=%22the%20mind%20in%20itself%20is%20its%20own%20instrument%20for%20contemplating%20the%20common%20terms%20that%20apply%20to%20everything%22%20%22THEAETETUS%22&f=false Things like existence and non-existence, likeness and unlikeness, unity and numbers, even and odd, and notions like that are just parts of the mind, and Forms are super-mental.

All these links, essentially, prove that all platonic concepts are transdual, which is what makes someone outerversal. Being outerversal means that you transcend all concepts of dimensions, and those that exist within the Gods Sphere are shown to be these outerversal platonic concepts. And we know that the Moniter Sphere also views everything below them as narratives and stories, viewing these lesser dimensions as fiction to them, infinitely transcending them.

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Then, existing above even that is the Overvoid, wherein Destiny of the Endless resides. Destiny of the endless has a book that contains all of creation, all that has happened, all that will ever happened, and everything that has happened, and views it all as fiction.

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We see Lucifer directly tear a page from a book that contains all that has ever happened and existed, which includes beings that view outerversal beings as fiction, and burn it in his hands, actively threatening Destiny.

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We also have multiple statements from Dream of the Endless, who should be at least relative to the other members of the Endless, stating that he is scared of Lucifer, and that Lucifer, barring the Presence, might be the most powerful being in all of existence, which would naturally include his siblings Death and Destiny, both of whom should view beings who view outerversal beings as fiction as fiction.

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3

So, stop with the Lucifer downplay. He would absolutely obliterate the Beyonder, with relative ease. He would literally blink the dude out of existence, and would view him as fiction. Being able to outgrow a universe, or destroy a multiverse, doesn't even reach 4D levels of power. Meanwhile, Lucifer is bullying people who transcend outerversal levels of powers many times over.

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OwenZane

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#95  Edited By OwenZane

@d_aeroflame_z: good post, no one in marvel other than maybe TOAA stands a chance against lucifer

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KevinFeige

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D_AeroFlame_Z

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@kevinfeige:Then they're just being dishonest. Dream saw Lucifer and was literally sweating up a storm and openly admitted to being scared. Lucifer casually threatened Destiny, the oldest of the Endless.

@owenzane: Thank you! I try my best.

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MichaelJulius

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@d_aeroflame_z: Destiny was Retconned in The Multiversity. The concept of Fate (not Nabu, but the concept of Fate itself) is what is up there and not Destiny.

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Grant confirms this in an interview when he says The Endless are still concepts of an even higher metaconcepts.

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Supermanfan1938

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Lucifer still neg diffs as per canon