Lucifer Morningstar Vs Beyonder

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DamnINeedABreak

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Poll: Lucifer Morningstar Vs Beyonder (115 votes)

Lucifer Morningstar 70%
Beyonder 30%

The Morningstar Vs The Omnipotent One

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Stezzy

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@etriel: says the moron that thinks destroying space time is enough to kill LT and thinks Owen’s powers are limited to molecules and Beyonder was never almost killed by anything. The dude literally can’t die, the concept of death didn’t apply to him and he didn’t even know what it was which is why Dave has to sacrifice himself to show Beyonder. You talk so much out of your ass about material you know nothing about.

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Yasindermann

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#502  Edited By Yasindermann

@theanimal666 said:
@fyron said:

2. Rules and Etiquette for Debating

Now we’re up to the part of the rules where we talk about how to conduct oneself when debating in a thread.

Watch Your Language and Attitude

Be respectful. Debating should be a civil discussion, not a malicious argument. Do not be obnoxious, do not troll, do not bait.

A common thing is saying “do you want to fight me in a CaV?” in an antagonistic manner. Don’t do it. CaVs are meant to be civil discussions, in which users should have mutual respect; they aren’t meant as challenges with the intent of proving a point or threatening to “humiliate” another person. This kind of attitude is wrong and it does nothing to positively contribute to the community.

Attack the argument, not the debater.

Do not:

  • Insult others. Just don’t do it.
  • Use rape in an insensitive context. Basically, don't say things like: "Professor X mindrapes him," and certainly don't say that one character will rape another. Seriously - don't do it.
  • Use the word "retarded," in reference to people, characters, arguments... really anything.
  • Call people stupid
    • Calling an argument absurd can be okay, but this is a more gray area. Avoid words like “dumb” or “stupid.” Words that mean essentially the same thing can carry very different context; don’t use antagonistic words. “That is ridiculous” is a very different thing than saying “you are stupid.” Learn the difference.

See the site rules regarding language.

Stay On Topic

I understand that, sometimes, you can have the occasional joke. But for the most part, try to stay on topic, and do not derail battles with off topic discussions; take it to a PM.

Keep memes and the like to a minimum. The occasional joke is fine, as I said, but memes have no place in a debate. If you are doing that while making a rebuttal, then you may be given a warning. CaVs are the exception, if you begin or end an argument with a "cool" gif; but it is still against the rules to do this in an antagonistic or condescending manner during the argument.

Use Feats

Feats are, essentially, evidence of ability to back up an argument.

When looking at feats, be objective. Do critical analysis and unravel the context behind the feats; don’t take them at face value. See if there is:

  • PIS / Plot Induced Stupidity – When a character wins, loses, or does something out of character for the sake of plot.
  • CIS / Character Induced Stupidity – When a character wins, loses, or does something out of character because of something that is occurring in the story. Maybe the character is holding back for some reason, or fighting uncharacteristically ruthlessly.
  • WIS / Writer Induced Stupidity – When something happens in the plot due to the writer not doing research on a character’s prior abilities.

Remember: try to be objective.

https://comicvine.gamespot.com/forums/battles-7/battle-forum-rules-30-all-users-read-1767034/

You have no right to say that. All our evidance is backed up with dreams creating multiverses, etc. So how is it ''not using feats''? Oh, and here the definition of head-canon:

Term used to describe events and characters that are unique within a piece of fan fiction and relevant only to that fan fiction.

We literally use all consistent feats canon to dream by the original writer with backed up feats, showings, etc why it is that way. You don't even know what fancanon means, and yet you try to call us out for ''fancanon''.

And when you make obvious stupid claims, then you should not wonder if someone calls you stupid and calls you out for this.

@fyron@michaeljulius@etriel This guy wants to give debating lessons. LOL.

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Iflated3go

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This thread is like the crescendo of circle jerk and an infinite well of misinformation.

It's the best thing ever really.

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VarricPatermann

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Is this still going on? Lucifer blinks Beyonder, case closed.

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johnsmjs36

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etriel

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#506 etriel  Online

Not to mention, dimensions include the 5th Dimension of DC which permeates throughout Infinite Timelines.

I still don't understand this lowball why it still exists, in 2019.

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DayWalker98

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@michaeljulius: Couple things.

The Beyonder is bigger than the Multiverse, and more powerful than all of the forces within it combined, the very Multiverse the Living Tribunal simultaneously exists in. "As long as I'm here, the "way" of the Multiverse is my way!" He clearly has more authority than the Living Tribunal. The Beyonder's very presence alters the Multiverse.

The Beyonder erases Death itself from the Multiverse, the Living Tribunal and his delegation politely beg the Beyonder to bring back Death to the Multiverse. The Beyonder tells "We're the real champions of life! We know what to do! And we're going to do it!" Clearly, the Living Tribunal does not have any authority or power over the Beyonder. Molecule Man arrives and the entire delegation beholds, as they move aside in awe at his presence, including the Living Tribunal. The Beyonder gets annoyed and simply brings back Death to the Multiverse.

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Yasindermann

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@daywalker98: But here is the thing: It isn't about the Beyond being a multiverse or a universe, Animal literally claimed that Lucifer is universal based on terminology. This is what this is all about. An universe in one setting isn't the same as an universe in some other setting. This argument is based on an terminology fallacy, which literally can be applied to Beyonder too, if it can be applied to Lucifer.

Call them whatever you want. I don't care at this point.

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johnsmjs36

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@daywalker98: I know that beyondrealm is a multiverse. I just said it because like Lucifer's Beyonder's realm os also called a Universe. But according to Animal, One is a Universe and another is Multiverse. His argument is that Lucifer calls it a Universe but I have provided the scan where Lucifer calls it Multiverse and you can read on his replies that he ignores it and claims that his claim is final and the discussion itself is over. The next argument is Mike Carey's tweets. He hasn't even posted the whole discussion just two that says Universe=Multiverse. Mike Carey hasn't said Universe= A single reality but the totality of everything.

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DudeIKnowIt

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Lucifer Wins

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DudeIKnowIt

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@daywalker98:

Well fanboys drop the cap and ill give my most honest and unbiased answer.

Answer: Lucifer Morningstar

Explanation : Well here my explanation its quite simple Morningstar is just more powerful. Lucifer to begin with is a archangel and by that it means he predates creation, was responsible for creating it, and is above all concept created after creation.

Beyonder may be millions of times more powerful, however you gotta take account that Marvel cosmicology was different beings Like Living Tribunal,Eternity, Or Infinity were relatively new concept and weren't as powerful as they are now. Also its was only a claim/statement as even if it did get proven( not really, but Beyonder was greater than the multiverse) you still gotta take in marvel cosmicology a little different.

If Beyonder is millions of times more powerful then straight up i believe Morningstar is infinitely greater. Well unlike Marvel, DC already establish a good cosmicology to scale up Morningstar power as Dream said " he is the most powerful being in creation, only his creator is greater." All the endless who are the concepts of who they represent themselves are really powerul way above multiversal and if Morningstar is greater then the endless he straight up is infinitely greater than the DC multiverses.

For anyone confused on Mike Carey Logic ill explain Universe = Creation = Multiverse he describe the universe as a totality of everything hence why he said you could call it a multiverse. Creation means as a whole which meant Multiverse also. He just isn't fond of using the term Multiversal and even then Morningstar power prove he is way above multiversal.

Let me bring in a character from each side for Marvel we got the Molecule Man blasted by a weapon with Beyond realm power he was given the power to manipulate and shape matter and energy and since matter and energy is all that is then he can do anything. Well if you put it that way put it this way Morningstar has infinite Will/ Will of God which is the same thing, however unlike molecule man he needs the stuff to be there and the exact amount since he control its he can just replicates the molecules until it matches him. Lucifer on the other hand only needs a single strand of anything and can make anything from it. Like a single molecule can become a whole multiverse. Plus just know Lucifer predates molecules,energy,or matter so Molecule man can't do anything.

On DC we got Michael Demiurgos he is god's right hand and has the Infinite power of God. His Demiurgic power is so insane well its includes such concepts as Time,Dream,Cosmic,and Even Primordial Power. Not only that it also encompasses Emotion,Dream,Reality,and Life. When Elaine Belloc has the power she felt everything in creation pyshical,mental,spiritually,or even divine. Plus if molecule man came whats he gonna do the Demiurgic power itself is greater than Beyonder or him and you can't use molecule as it would fall under the category of Demiurgic power.

Feats: Beyonder erased death, has more power in a single electron than the entire galaxies, tank a explosion that could destroy several billion dimension, survived the Beyonders Bane, went up against Molecule Man, and beat the council of god heads and the cosmic entity.

Well he only erased death, but used so much power that he didn't have enough to bring the concept back unless there was a great deed/ a sacrifice being made. Also lady death or Marvel death isn't really impressive she ran form the chaos king, is weaker than thanos, has no claim over her brother or sister(Eternity,Infinity,Or Oblivion). Vertigo Death>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Marvels Death.

Lucifer Morningstar: Destroy the logos with just a touch, shattered the Mansion of Silence with his bare presence, and ripped and burned Destiny pages of his Book.

Whats so impressive with that you may ask let me explain

Logos: Direct tower that connects your voice to Gods, so breaking it would be impossible unless your just Outerversal like Morningstar

Mansion Of Silence: Has the word of god in an infinite vast are where there are mirrors to different failed universes that contains billions of soul are reflecting off of each other in a infinite timeline and infinite logic.

Destiny Books: Contains all that is of the multiverse that includes Fate,Time, Logic,Irregular, and anything you can name and has the multiverse just in the pages and Lucifer casual rips it and burned a bunch of pages.

Lucifer straight up threaten Death and the endless on multiple occasions if they were to mess with him or his universe.

Lucifer has went up against Infinite Power which is Michael Demiurgos and Michael could never put his brother down.

He tricked Gods and Two Giants( who inherited Yahweh Omnipotence after stealing it) and even weakened destroyed Fernis after he destroyed the throne of God.

Like I said Lucifer is just more powerful. He casual creates Multiverse and would be technically omnipotent well have virtually omnipotence if he didn't have his weakness creating something from nothing. In fact Michael is the few character from DC and Marvel who can do that. Plus isn't an angel "essence without shape" He is the light bringer he could just mold his energy and shape it so that would create something and that is a way around his weakness.

Plus Yahweh divided or split his omnipotence into two Michael and Lucifer and that why they are omnipotent, but the Presence changes his mind because we wanted both of them to work together so they could create a beautiful Multiverse so he gave them weakness to accomplish that and made The Great Plan that Lucifer later escape.

Lucifer can comprehend the void, is a meta where he knows his fictional,and has meet the Silk man who devours anything in his path and he has to billions of universes. Later he killed the Silk Man plus Lucifer blinked 20 billions years into the DC Multiverse history, Gave a man a heart attack from several universe away, and with the help of Elaine he and her moved the multiverse until the reached the void they carried everything physical dimensions, spatial dimensions, and everything so they moved all of creation.

Plus it was noted no one, but God can destroyed Lucifer for good.

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DudeIKnowIt

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@theanimal666: dude as mentioned Mike Carey said a universe is a totality of everything as said before he mrntions that he beileve that Multiverse and Creation and Universe is the same things thats why he said a multiverse is a good word plus Lucifer wouldnt scale so high if it was that

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TheAnimal666

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@dudeiknowit: The definition he gave is the one of a single reality which he confirmed ontwitter.

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DudeIKnowIt

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@theanimal666: lol the single reality which encompasses everything dude Mike Carey created him to be the most powerful being under God from logic u should know its not just a universe and in the comics it said infinite in another issues it said he had millions of universe in the single multiverse dude saying a universe would make all the years of Mike Carey writiong to promote Morningstar being the most powerful useless

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DudeIKnowIt

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DudeIKnowIt

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@stezzy: read my thread that said Lucifer Morningstar vs Beyonder Explanation it'll explain it to u and answer all ur question i can assure of that.

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TheAnimal666

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#517  Edited By TheAnimal666

@dudeiknowit:

A single reality encompasses all dimensions it contains already.

I don't need it.

You misunderstood Mike Carey.

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DudeIKnowIt

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#518  Edited By DudeIKnowIt
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DudeIKnowIt

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@theanimal666: ok expalin why people say he creates multiverse, how he is second only to the presence, and how he created a multiverse with his brother and by himself and you can still say he only created a single universe. with just one molecule inifinte will could trun it into a multiverse it would make so sense if all that wasn't there

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DudeIKnowIt

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@theanimal666: btw read my thread called Lucifer Morningstar vs Beyonder Explanation maybe it'll teach u how powerful he is wether you come to that decision of using that poor excuse

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TheAnimal666

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No Caption Provided

Case closed.

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DudeIKnowIt

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@theanimal666: lol if u read that he means that of terminology as said if u know hwat he said that they mean the same in. He said he doesnt see multiverse as many unoverse and universe are divide in levela,demensions,and relams. its clear he doesnt like using the term multiverse as he believe universe already define it as said that he beieleve its just a way u see it for him he bielves multiverse is another term for universe read it directly andunderstand what he said

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etriel

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#524 etriel  Online

@theanimal666: lol if u read that he means that of terminology as said if u know hwat he said that they mean the same in. He said he doesnt see multiverse as many unoverse and universe are divide in levela,demensions,and relams. its clear he doesnt like using the term multiverse as he believe universe already define it as said that he beieleve its just a way u see it for him he bielves multiverse is another term for universe read it directly andunderstand what he said

And the Presence is confirmed to be creating many Universes in Quantum Mechanics according to 2001 Spectre, and the Presence is also hinted to be the Source, who created the Multiversal Super-Celestials.

And Lucifer gets his power from that same Presence. This argument of outdated, misunderstood WOG is boring. Lol

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MichaelJulius

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#525  Edited By MichaelJulius

The current JLA 2018 series is an offshoot of Hypertime. It is its very own canon that is part of the larger collective. JLA 2018 is a brand new canon that has new origins for many older canon characters. You cannot use something cited directly by DC as an offshoot of Hypertime, a new canon with new origins for characters, to justify older canon stories and characters.

Loading Video...

Here is what the primary version of Hypertime is. It is all of DC canon. It is Meta. The version of Hypertime shown in JLA 2018, is just normal timestreams. Even the two primary authors of JLA 2018 are aware of this and went on video to explain it. Above. So, here is the author of Hypertime canon explaining what the full version of Hypertime is to DC comics.

Loading Video...

Morrison Hypertime contains all DC canons and even non-canon Marvel crossovers, it contains all canon. Period.

Synder and Tynion's entire JLA 2018 series is cited as an offshoot of Hypertime, a brand new canon. It also references its own mini version of Hypertime, but goes on to show that Hypertime in this canon is just the normal Time stream. Its just time in general.

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MichaelJulius

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#526  Edited By MichaelJulius

The Forger made Hypertime in the new canon.

No Caption Provided

What is this new version of Hypertime? Its just normal Time. The Justice League was split up in time zones across history just prior to this. Some went to the past, some went to alternate universes, etc. Hypertime in this new series is the tangent branches of Time inside this Multiverse. It is not the same as Morrison Hypertime, because the authors literally said it wasnt in that interview.

Here is a scan showing that Hypertime is a reference to other timelines in this specific Multiverse.

No Caption Provided

The Presence has nothing to do with the Source references in JLA 2018. These are completely different canons. Monitors aren't even mentioned in Vertigo, because its a contained canon of DC Comics as a whole.

You can't bridge build from canon to canon, unless the author specifically links them. You can only build bridges from one canon to Morrison's Final Crisis canon, because it contains every other DC Canon as an offshoot of Hypertime and even Snyder and Tynion totally agree that is the case.

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RampageTheFirst

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@rampagethefirst: nio she hasnt

I've provided evidence, don't tag me if you're going to just say "No", if you're going to tag me, make it worthwhile or don't tag me at all.

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DudeIKnowIt

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deactivated-5dc97b76a71ff

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Lucifer stomps

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TheVoidofDeath

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#530  Edited By TheVoidofDeath

@brucerogers

Oh my goodness, the lowballing continues to spread within this forum. I could lowball DC cosmology as well, and Lucifer's low-end feats. However, I see people making their statements up, and deeming them as factual while denying the writer's words. Then, while denying the writer's words, they take the words of another writer to justify their statement. ( ABSOLUTE NONSENSE)

In addition to this, taking feats out of context to justify their points, even when feats/statements say otherwise.

1. Beyonder perceives an Illimitable Dimensionally Layered Multiverse as a speck water droplet like Beyonder was a vast ocean. He's above conceptual entities who represent the concepts of time, space, duality, chaos, order, etc. all the Marvel Abstracts included, he's above creation as it can get.

2, Beyonder was everything outside of the multiverse and embodied everything within the marvel multiverse.

3. Beyonder did not create the Marvel Multiverse, but it is irrelevant if he, theoretically has the power to recreate it over and over anyway. It does not matter. And consider how massive he is.

4. Beyonder has created from nothingness. Jim shooter confirmed this, and we learned to compare the infinite Marvel multiverse to Beyonder's realm was.. like comparing a droplet to an ocean.

T

5. The entire story of Beyonder is him contemplating whether or not to destroy the Multiverse and everyone is trying to either appease him or mess around with him. He doesn't need to do anything to prove it, his existence and status alone are enough. The context of the story narrative proves that he is above Creation.

6. The Beyonder limited his ability and has a humanoid form which has been proved on panel multiple times. (The Puma interaction, Doom interaction and so forth.)

7.So, Jim Shooter (the writer) and Al Milgrom (the artist) and stated: "e discovered us." Which means himself/Milgrom withIN the fictional Marvel Universe that only exists in comics,

and that self is TOAA. (represented by an illustrated Avatar) 'if TOAA is the Supreme creator of everything withIN the Marvel Universe,

how can Beyonder be above that?' (Opps I know why) e know in the real world it was Shooter who created Beyonder,

but withIN the reality of Marvel comics,

Beyonder was NOT created by Shooter's avatar (TOAA),

and instead, Beyonder always was, & had no beginning (like the abrahamic God)

and in fact, as Shooter stated, was an ocean,

while TOAA (Shooter/Milgrom) and the entire Marvelverse was a drop of water in comparison.

So, what I am seeing on comic vine that Mandrakk is a narrative eater, and only has been beaten by plot device but users are willing to overlook Beyonder's statement on a panel telling us he will defeat? (what nonsense!) and Thought Robot was nearly killed by a sub galaxy level attack lol.

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solaris6

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#531 solaris6  Online

Beyonder stomps.

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etriel

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#532  Edited By etriel  Online

@thevoidofdeath said:

1. Beyonder perceives an Illimitable Dimensionally Layered Multiverse as a speck water droplet like Beyonder was a vast ocean.

Respectfully disagree.... Marvel's Multiverse during Secret Wars was Layered... yes.. but there is no evidence there were geometric infinities above.

Beyonder even stated that when he arrived to the Marvel Multiverse, he noted that spaces there was 3-dimensional. Layering has nothing to do with it.

He's above conceptual entities who represent the concepts of time, space, duality, chaos, order, etc. all the Marvel Abstracts included, he's above creation as it can get.

Being above concepts is fine, even Universe level characters have similar deepness, but concepts have different levels of power in fiction as well. And you ought to take that into account.

2, Beyonder was everything outside of the multiverse and embodied everything within the marvel multiverse.

Don't know... depends.... there were statements that treated the Beyond Realm, in fact, as an Alternate Multiverse, but bigger. It was a very confusing story in many instances.

There was no spatial relationship between himself and the Multiverse within one existence for us to say that, considering he had problems becoming one with the Beyond Realm so he looked for someone with enough Multiversal power to kill him.

3. Beyonder did not create the Marvel Multiverse, but it is irrelevant if he, theoretically has the power to recreate it over and over anyway. It does not matter. And consider how massive he is.

I agree, but that leads to how Beyonder is not embodying the Marvel Multiverse, he is spatially removed from it and he needs portalling to other unrelationed space to get there. Being bigger is removed from it.

4. Beyonder has created from nothingness. Jim shooter confirmed this, and we learned to compare the infinite Marvel multiverse to Beyonder's realm was.. like comparing a droplet to an ocean.

Beyonder is a Void... like Pralaya, or Mother Night, or Great Evil Beast (who was also Lucifer's avatar in disguise) and Oblivion. But this is a dime a dozen in fiction and characters with Eldritch, Void Manip. like what we see in SMT God Tiers who manipulate lower dimensional voids can deal with him.

5. The entire story of Beyonder is him contemplating whether or not to destroy the Multiverse and everyone is trying to either appease him or mess around with him. He doesn't need to do anything to prove it, his existence and status alone are enough. The context of the story narrative proves that he is above Creation.

I agree that Beyonder is stronger than a Multiverse, but the idea that Multiversal power cannot reach him is not true. Especially characters who are scaling to a Quantum Multiverse that Beyonder simply does not have.

6. The Beyonder limited his ability and has a humanoid form which has been proved on panel multiple times. (The Puma interaction, Doom interaction and so forth.)

The Puma interaction was different because it is illogical for an unfathomably powerful being not kill himself to send himself to the Beyond Realm and instead of looking for things that could kill him. I already addressed this I believe.

It makes more sense that Puma had the chance of killing Beyonder without the latter weakening himself, because that creates a plot hole. And if that true, then... anything like a spoon attack could be able to kill him if it was true he was weakening himself willingly and would have taken THAT short cut instead.

For a guy who wants to badly become the Void again, Beyonder seems picky. And that is the hole in this interpretation.

Thought Robot was nearly killed by a sub galaxy level attack lol.

+1