Lucifer Morningstar Vs Beyonder

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DamnINeedABreak

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Poll: Lucifer Morningstar Vs Beyonder (117 votes)

Lucifer Morningstar 70%
Beyonder 30%

The Morningstar Vs The Omnipotent One

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Red_Leader

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@iflated3go: I mean it cant, as you cant compare to infinite power with a limited power output.

Not here to diss your pet goldfish, he's probably an amazing guy. He just doesn't compare to the Prescence

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etriel

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#452  Edited By etriel

The Beyonder Backers know that Beyonder is fodder who struggled against Molecule Warping, and only scales to a Universe that is made up of different layers that are each finite in size. And lost 90% of his power to erase a concept and could not keep it erased after losing his power.

He is no better than Lowballed Lucifer and the Marvel side here KNOWS that.

If Lucifer's Multiverse is only Universe level, the same could be said for Marvel's Multiverse during Secret Wars.

NEVER play defensive against Marvel fans. Never do that.

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Iflated3go

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@iflated3go: I mean it cant, as you cant compare to infinite power with a limited power output.

Not here to diss your pet goldfish, he's probably an amazing guy. He just doesn't compare to the Prescence

You are right actually since my pet goldfish is an actual real thing that exists while Presence is a bunch of drawings on a piece of paper.

Presence compares more to the Sponge Bob drawing i did when i was a kid.

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Y3kthunder

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#454 Y3kthunder  Online

@etriel: lol exactly my man I couldn't agree more its like really man the days of calling lucifer universal is over way to much evidence supporting him being multiversal

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Red_Leader

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Presence compares more to the Sponge Bob drawing i did when i was a kid.

Okay now this argument is starting to get meta

I was referring to the idea of putting your goldfish in this fictional verse, then trying to compare the two. Which is undo-able.

granted, i don't know what feats that drawing has, but probably not above fictional omnipotence.

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etriel

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@etriel: lol exactly my man I couldn't agree more its like really man the days of calling lucifer universal is over way to much evidence supporting him being multiversal

The Beyond Realm was called a Universe several times.

But Opps, I guess dat dont count. Amiryt?

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Iflated3go

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@red_leader: I just gave the drawing fictional omnipotence.

Turns out it's really is.

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TheOneAboveLife

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I'll say this once more. Lucifer Morningstar makes Beyonder kill himself for wasting his time.

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Y3kthunder

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#459 Y3kthunder  Online
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MichaelJulius

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@rijehu: Correct. Dream of the Endless remade the Multiverse with just a few thousand or so Gods/mortals minds used as a power source. With his full power, the complete multiverse and Dreaming already there, his power dwarfs this feat and Lucifer is still stronger.

No Caption Provided

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TheAnimal666

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@rijehu: Correct. Dream of the Endless remade the Multiverse with just a few thousand or so Gods/mortals minds used as a power source. With his full power, the complete multiverse and Dreaming already there, his power dwarfs this feat and Lucifer is still stronger.

Great to see he cannot do it under his own power.

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Yasindermann

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@theanimal666: His power is literally shaping multiverses out of thoughts. That's his power source and somehow, he is not multiversal because of it? And Lucifer was above him. You're absolutely inept at debating.

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TheAnimal666

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@yasindermann: Nice to see that you are making-up your own answers and that you are relying on personal attacks. Anything else ?

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The objective of scaling and tiering is to denote who gave what the authority to use their powers in the first place. This is where most generalists lack in debate skill and fail miserably with an attempt to seize logic on their own arguments.

iflated3go believes that his creation he gifts him will grant itself more power than the God that gave iflated3go the ability and power to gift his goldfish its own power in the first place. That is what tiering is and the idea of scaling, also, where iflated3go fails on his point. To say you can generate a story or a character with more power than the literal Biblical/Abrahamic God that made your existence possible, and granted the idea of that power in the first place, is immensely illogical.

Summed up: The God that made him> Him trying to outperform God with his own character.

@iflated3go: I mean it cant, as you cant compare to infinite power with a limited power output.

Not here to diss your pet goldfish, he's probably an amazing guy. He just doesn't compare to the Prescence

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Iflated3go

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#465  Edited By Iflated3go

@michaeljulius: iflated3go believes that his creation he gifts him will grant itself more power than the God that gave iflated3go the ability and power to gift his goldfish its own power in the first place.

No, that's not what i believe. Thats actually the dumbest thing i have ever heard lol.

Presence isn't real, when are you going to learn that these characters aren't real... You're like Joaquin Phoenix in the Joker lol.

Also God didn't make me, God isn't real Scathan, you really have a problem with believing various fictional characters are real.

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MichaelJulius

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Your beliefs aren't relevant in this debate. Most of us aren't here to debate your opinion. Until you write a comic book that gets published that we debate, you are just a fan like the rest of us. Many authors don't agree with you that these characters aren't real. Case in point:

No Caption Provided

So when debaters, such as yourself, say this isn't real world applicable, you are mistaken. To the creator of the story, they are. We aren't saying we agree, our opinion on this is not relevant. You don't seem to understand the difference between subjective opinion and objective fact. That is why your argument is faulty.

@michaeljulius: iflated3go believes that his creation he gifts him will grant itself more power than the God that gave iflated3go the ability and power to gift his goldfish its own power in the first place.

No, that's not what i believe. Thats actually the dumbest thing i have ever heard lol.

Presence isn't real, when are you going to learn that these characters aren't real... You're like Joaquin Phoenix in the Joker lol.

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Iflated3go

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#467  Edited By Iflated3go

@michaeljulius: You don't have to write a comic to get it published you can just make up any story and nobody has to publish it and anybody can do that.

Again you STILL don't seem to understand that these characters aren't real, God isn't real either. These characters are just drawings on a piece of paper.

You need help Scathan, before you join a cult or something.

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MichaelJulius

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@etriel said:
@y3kthunder said:

@etriel: lol exactly my man I couldn't agree more its like really man the days of calling lucifer universal is over way to much evidence supporting him being multiversal

The Beyond Realm was called a Universe several times.

But Opps, I guess dat dont count. Amiryt?

Correct. The usage of the term Universe is abundant. I think at least seven references to this is enough to shut that debate down. The Beyond is another Universe, just one that is very different from the rest.

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3Gallery image 4Gallery image 5Gallery image 6Gallery image 7

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Y3kthunder

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#469 Y3kthunder  Online
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MichaelJulius

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It absolutely fascinates me. The emotional need to be right at all costs, when the opposition is vividly, absurdly and even comically wrong on an objective level.

@michaeljulius: wow yea that bout sums that up

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Y3kthunder

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#471 Y3kthunder  Online
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#473  Edited By MichaelJulius

The Beyonder is just a more potent version of Multi-Eternity from another Multiverse. He should be considered a brother and its why Eternity was at the forefront of the objection to The Beyonder infiltrating his domain.

Eternity full form - the physical sum of the entire Marvel Multiverse, he is everything in it.

Beyonder - the physical sum of his universe/multiverse in The Beyond, he is everything in it.

There is a reason Eternity, out of all the abstracts, tried repeatedly to take him out.

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Y3kthunder

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#474 Y3kthunder  Online
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Rijehu

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#475 Rijehu  Online

@michaeljulius: And to further validate your claim, Daniel remade all of creation in the current Sandman run IIRC. And not only is her also is also inferior to Lucifer, it’s often implied that he is inferior to Morpheus as well. So there is no way to make Lucifer universal when beings who are fodder to him are easily multiversal.

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MichaelJulius

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@rijehu: Don't take those users seriously who support The Beyonder here (not saying you are, but just saying in general) notice the dodge in that users response to me. "Good thing Dream needs those minds and imaginations to use that power" when the topic is about Lucifer and how he doesn't. Dream's fuel is irrelevant and Lucifer doesn't require the fuel that Dream does, but that user is not here to actually debate. He is here to emotionally vent and mess with others.

Lucifer shaped the entire DC Infinite Multiverse and The Beyonder was almost killed when Eternity had an open shot at him. That is the end of the debate, at least, IMO. Glad 99.9% of us here agree.

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Yasindermann

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#477  Edited By Yasindermann

Dream literally creates multiverses out of thoughts, so he is still multiversal, as he still shapes multiverses. Like either properly debunks his status as an multiversal character or move on. Animal literally said he still creates multiverses, just out of thoughts, which is still the same as creating actual multiverses.

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etriel

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#478  Edited By etriel
@theanimal666 said:
@michaeljulius said:

@rijehu: Correct. Dream of the Endless remade the Multiverse with just a few thousand or so Gods/mortals minds used as a power source. With his full power, the complete multiverse and Dreaming already there, his power dwarfs this feat and Lucifer is still stronger.

Great to see he cannot do it under his own power.

Gods and Humans in DC are retroactively manipulated by Dream of the Endless, their imaginations, sub-conciousness, hopes and fears are extensions/parts of Dream of the Endless. That which he used to Retro the DC Multivers.

He is Multiversal because he is using parts of himself that is stored, existing within Gods and Humans concpetually. So I don't know what this is all about "not under his own power" Lol.

All of that, is in fact still under his own power stored in the citizens of DC's Multiverse. Dream's power is equivalent to withdrawing from a bank. Dream can literally use Beyonder's own imagination against him for superior feats, and Dream is far, far weaker than Lucifer.

Better call more mods.

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TheAnimal666

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#479  Edited By TheAnimal666

@etriel said:

Better call more mods.

For ? You cannot be reported for bullshitting and using your fancannon.

Mike Carey already turned your fan-theories to dust.

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etriel

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@etriel said:

Better call more mods.

For ? You cannot be reported for bullshitting and using your fancannon.

Fan canon? Dream is using Dreams to recreate the Multiverse, therefore he is using his own associations and affinity to do it.

How is that fan canon? LMAO

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TheAnimal666

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@etriel: I don't give a damn about what Dream did.

You're poorly trying to move the conversation on another topic.

Lucifer created one single reality.

He isn't strong enough to beat Beyonder.

/thread

Now I have better thing to do than answering to your baits.

Good night.

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DayWalker98

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@etriel: lol. I hope you realize that the beyond realm is not a universe instead it is a literal Multiverse that dwarfs Marvel’s greater than infinite-D multiverse.

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etriel

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#485  Edited By etriel

@daywalker98 said:

@etriel: lol. I hope you realize that the beyond realm is not a universe instead it is a literal Multiverse that dwarfs Marvel’s greater than infinite-D multiverse.

Marvel's Multiverse during Secret Wars was stated to be a Multi-Layered Multiverse of Physics with adjacent universes, there is no proper credible evidence of an actual transacting hierarchy in the story.

Beyonder was nearly killed by an energy equal to that Multiverse. All statements of Cosmology size in Marvel are very contradicting and unreliable.

All we know is that Marvel's Multiverse is infinity, and Beyonder warped this Multiverse a little bit and was nearly killed by it's energy at one point. And was halted by a Molecule Physics Warper.

Kudos for being more competent than Larry, Curly and Moe here (Stezzy, Animal and Inflated) though.

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DayWalker98

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@michaeljulius: Note that in that arc, the term ‘universe’ is used to refer to all existence...they are used interchangeably but ultimately means all existence

Jim shooter out right stated he comes from another Multiverse. Owen confirms (beyonder does too) that the beyond realm is a place above and beyond the infinite dimensions which makes up the multiverse AND BEYOND ALL KNOWN EXISTENCE(infinite multiverses which makes up all existence/creation). Jim confirms that the way beyonder saw ALL EXISTENCE was literally how van discovered paramecia....Now to top it off, in the final issue of the arc, it was made known that the beyonder views all existence as FICTION lmao, he literally sees everything as fiction because his imagination equals reality,this means even the Likes of Owen who transcends LT,oblivion and the rest is seen as fiction by the beyonder (this was even confirmed in another panel)

Infact it confirms that ALL EXISTENCE is a just a figment of his imagination. This is another confirmation that everything and everyone is fiction to him, and all part of his own imagination....now this is from the last issue of sw 2 and beyonder literally summarized his history in the mu and he came to a conclusion that certain things happened because he deemed it to be hence‘reality is what i say it is’ and he can when he wants to,see everyone and everything,the whole existence and the outerversal beings in it as just mere fiction hence ‘figment of his imagination’...and this is for the ‘sEeS thEn aS fICTioN yeT StRuGglEd’ when they fail to actually read and to comprehend why things happened

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MichaelJulius

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#487  Edited By MichaelJulius

@daywalker98 said:

@michaeljulius: Note that in that arc, the term ‘universe’ is used to refer to all existence...they are used interchangeably but ultimately means all existence

Where? They used the term Universe and Multiverse to denote the difference in Secret Wars many times. I posted a few scans that proves that the writers and the characters both know the difference between what a universe is and what a Multiverse is.

Jim shooter out right stated he comes from another Multiverse.

Shooter also wrote the term universe right next to Multiverse almost a dozen times in Secret Wars. His comic story is different than what he stated it to be in the interview clip I posted. This is a case where you toss the author statement right out the window for ignoring overwhelming and copious amounts of story credit in text form in the comic. If Superman's cape is drawn red for an entire comic and an author gives an interview and says its Green, the author statement is to be fully ignored.

Owen confirms (beyonder does too) that the beyond realm is a place above and beyond the infinite dimensions which makes up the multiverse AND BEYOND ALL KNOWN EXISTENCE(infinite multiverses which makes up all existence/creation). Jim confirms that the way beyonder saw ALL EXISTENCE was literally how van discovered paramecia....Now to top it off, in the final issue of the arc, it was made known that the beyonder views all existence as FICTION lmao, he literally sees everything as fiction because his imagination equals reality,this means even the Likes of Owen who transcends LT,oblivion and the rest is seen as fiction by the beyonder (this was even confirmed in another panel)

It actually doesnt. It says the Beyond realm is empty and devoid of anything. In fact, Owen goes on to state he is surprised how easy it was to fill it with physics and life at the end of the story.

Infact it confirms that ALL EXISTENCE is a just a figment of his imagination. This is another confirmation that everything and everyone is fiction to him, and all part of his own imagination....now this is from the last issue of sw 2 and beyonder literally summarized his history in the mu and he came to a conclusion that certain things happened because he deemed it to be hence‘reality is what i say it is’ and he can when he wants to,see everyone and everything,the whole existence and the outerversal beings in it as just mere fiction hence ‘figment of his imagination’...and this is for the ‘sEeS thEn aS fICTioN yeT StRuGglEd’ when they fail to actually read and to comprehend why things happened

The Beyonder's story is that he is naive to all existence. He thought he was alone and he doesn't understand it. He is not from outside existence, he is not from outside of the main Marvel Multiverse. His universe is another universe outside of Eternity's domain. The story tells you many times its totally empty. There is nothing inside of it except The Beyonder's consciousness. Its not a multiverse. Its literally empty.

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johnsmjs36

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@theanimal666: Okay let me get this straight. Beyonder Universe is multiverse despite it being stated multiple times to be a Universe but Lucifer's Creation is a single Universe despite many times being called a multiverse later on. Is this hypocrisy I smell?

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DayWalker98

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#489  Edited By DayWalker98

@michaeljulius: He literally stated he is bigger than the marvel multiverse itself lol. Beyonder is literally a walking talking Multiverse. He is a Multiverse, but he is also a timeless, spaceless void multiverse that is somehow bigger than the Marvel Multiverse which confuses everyone. He is a Multiverse, but a very abnormal one. Nonetheless, Beyonder is a Void/Multiverse Embodiment that dwarfed the Marvel Multiverse. Thanks to sungsam

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DayWalker98

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The marvel multiverse is a drop of water to the ocean compared to it thus imagine how many multiverses with infinite dimensions and literally the whole type of marvel cosmology can fit into the beyond realm

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MichaelJulius

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@michaeljulius: He literally stated he is bigger than the marvel multiverse itself lol. Beyonder is literally a walking talking Multiverse.

Except he is a naive Godling who doesnt understand anything and the point of the story was not to trust him on his word, because he didn't understand anything at all. He is a being of a higher dimension. A 4th dimensional being is apparently physically larger than the entire DC Orrery (Darkseid). When Beyonder says something, you take it with a grain of salt because he also said he was omnipotent but it took almost all of his power to take out Death. Dave assures him that the power remaining is enough to take out the rest of the Tribunal before him and The Beyonder says nothing in response. You are supposed to take this as No, the Beyonder is not nearly as powerful as he said he was. This transgressed earlier when Eternity got an almost free shot at Beyonder and missed the mark, but Beyonder said it would have ended him if it hit. Beyonder is naive, he is not trustworthy and that is the point of his character.

He is a Multiverse, but he is also a timeless, spaceless void multiverse that is somehow bigger than the Marvel Multiverse which confuses everyone. He is a Multiverse, but a very abnormal one. Nonetheless, Beyonder is a Void/Multiverse Embodiment that dwarfed the Marvel Multiverse. Thanks to sungsam

He is absolutely another Universe, but not a Multiverse. The gist there is that it isn't relevant, his Universe being a total void means he has no dimensions, no physics. He is absolutely a void, I agree with everything else, and that is why he was so powerful. He is just like Oblivion in Marvel, but with even more authority and the ability to invade the physical spaces whenever he wishes.

The argument here is that he is a multiverse when the comics said 10+ times he is a Universe with sentience, that he is X powerful but in fact two instances disproved his power that he himself said he had and he ended up not having that power/boasting that he did when he did not, and lastly that he is an infinite dimensional being but is from a universe that has no physics in it.

Basically, every statement he made was addressed somewhere in Secret Wars as incorrect. Owen fills the Beyond with dimension and physics easily because there wasn't any there. To the Beyonder, he was infinite-D. To the Beyonder, he was X powerful and was disproven on that. That was the entire core point of this character. He didn't get it. He was wielding absurd power, and the scary thing was he was extremely naive.

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etriel

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#492  Edited By etriel

@michaeljulius:

Dream of the Endless is also superior to the Sumerian Gods of the Unwritten by M. Carey who created the Leviathan who itself, contains an Infinite Hierarchy of Comic Book Page Voids and Conceptual Stories. And Lucifer is superior to the specific Endless that made that hierarchy's imagination even possible.

I don't think Beyonder being a "Void" is gonna be a problem for Lucifer considering even the Imps as well as Vishnu, have showed/implied some level of Void Manipulation.

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MichaelJulius

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Agreed. I touched on this a while back but didn't here today, I probably should have mentioned that exact point about Lucifer's Void manipulation.

@etriel said:

@michaeljulius:

Dream of the Endless is also superior to the Sumerian Gods of the Unwritten by M. Carey who created the Leviathan who itself, contains an Infinite Hierarchy of Comic Book Page Voids and Conceptual Stories. And Lucifer is superior to all of them.

I don't think Beyonder being a "Void" is gonna be a problem for Lucifer considering even the Imps as well as Vishnua, have showed/implied some level of Void Manipulation.

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fyron

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@theanimal666: Okay let me get this straight. Beyonder Universe is multiverse despite it being stated multiple times to be a Universe but Lucifer's Creation is a single Universe despite many times being called a multiverse later on. Is this hypocrisy I smell?

Ignore that guy , you aren't going to get anywhere with it. Because he will keep repeating the same nonsense again and again.

He uses double standard illogical arguments in almost every debate of his. He said Thor and Superman have got low showings and they're legit so they lose to Saitama , but Saitama's low showings are Plot Induced Stupidity. He said Thought Robot has only got author statements and comic descriptions , so he's Headcanon , but said One Above All's author statements and descriptions are legit. And if you try to correct him , he will call the mods. Don't waste your time.

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TheAnimal666

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@johnsmjs36: Have you read my post or not ?

  • Lucifer himself state that it is a single universe (reality).
  • Mike Carey explain on twitter that he use "multiverse" as the way he sees the structure of a single reality.
  • Marvel's definition of a single reality (ex: Earth-616), is composed of one universe and all of his realms and dimensions which fit the definition given by Mike Carey.

That's not debatable.
The way you are feeling about it doesn't matter.

The debate is over.

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TheAnimal666

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@fyron said:

2. Rules and Etiquette for Debating

Now we’re up to the part of the rules where we talk about how to conduct oneself when debating in a thread.

Watch Your Language and Attitude

Be respectful. Debating should be a civil discussion, not a malicious argument. Do not be obnoxious, do not troll, do not bait.

A common thing is saying “do you want to fight me in a CaV?” in an antagonistic manner. Don’t do it. CaVs are meant to be civil discussions, in which users should have mutual respect; they aren’t meant as challenges with the intent of proving a point or threatening to “humiliate” another person. This kind of attitude is wrong and it does nothing to positively contribute to the community.

Attack the argument, not the debater.

Do not:

  • Insult others. Just don’t do it.
  • Use rape in an insensitive context. Basically, don't say things like: "Professor X mindrapes him," and certainly don't say that one character will rape another. Seriously - don't do it.
  • Use the word "retarded," in reference to people, characters, arguments... really anything.
  • Call people stupid
    • Calling an argument absurd can be okay, but this is a more gray area. Avoid words like “dumb” or “stupid.” Words that mean essentially the same thing can carry very different context; don’t use antagonistic words. “That is ridiculous” is a very different thing than saying “you are stupid.” Learn the difference.

See the site rules regarding language.

Stay On Topic

I understand that, sometimes, you can have the occasional joke. But for the most part, try to stay on topic, and do not derail battles with off topic discussions; take it to a PM.

Keep memes and the like to a minimum. The occasional joke is fine, as I said, but memes have no place in a debate. If you are doing that while making a rebuttal, then you may be given a warning. CaVs are the exception, if you begin or end an argument with a "cool" gif; but it is still against the rules to do this in an antagonistic or condescending manner during the argument.

Use Feats

Feats are, essentially, evidence of ability to back up an argument.

When looking at feats, be objective. Do critical analysis and unravel the context behind the feats; don’t take them at face value. See if there is:

  • PIS / Plot Induced Stupidity – When a character wins, loses, or does something out of character for the sake of plot.
  • CIS / Character Induced Stupidity – When a character wins, loses, or does something out of character because of something that is occurring in the story. Maybe the character is holding back for some reason, or fighting uncharacteristically ruthlessly.
  • WIS / Writer Induced Stupidity – When something happens in the plot due to the writer not doing research on a character’s prior abilities.

Remember: try to be objective.

https://comicvine.gamespot.com/forums/battles-7/battle-forum-rules-30-all-users-read-1767034/

Ignore that guy , you aren't going to get anywhere with it. Because he will keep repeating the same nonsense again and again.

Antagonistic behaviour, forbidden by the rules.

He uses double standard illogical arguments in almost every debate of his.

Again, and lies.

He said Thor and Superman have got low showings and they're legit so they lose to Saitama ,

Yeah. I'm not cherry picking.

but Saitama's low showings are Plot Induced Stupidity.

He has no low showings.

He said Thought Robot has only got author statements and comic descriptions

Strawman.

I asked for proof that TR can counter reality-warping, you came with author statements absolutely non-sequitur.

They didn't help your case, they didn't confirm anything that you've said.

, so he's Headcanon ,

What I called headcannon is your interpretation of the author's word. He never confirmed anything that you've said.

but said One Above All's author statements and descriptions are legit.

Both are legit but you was using author's statements about Apples when we were talking about Oranges.

Bad move.

And if you try to correct him , he will call the mods. Don't waste your time.

I called the mods on your attitude because it goes against the rules.

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fyron

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Antagonistic behaviour, forbidden by the rules.

Anyone on this vine would be unable to deal calmly with a person who repeatedly ignores scans being posted , and keeps on saying that the other debater didn't post proof. That is what I would call lying. You are lying , not us. We posted plenty of proof regarding author confirming TR is superior , and regarding DC's cosmology , but you ignore it and say we didn't post any proof. You were trolling.

Again, and lies.

No. What I said was 100% truth , in fact you are the one lying , trying to play victim and portray the other party as the bullies.

He said Thor and Superman have got low showings and they're legit so they lose to Saitama ,

Yeah. I'm not cherry picking.

You literally said that. I can post the links to the posts as proof.

but Saitama's low showings are Plot Induced Stupidity.

He has no low showings.

Failing to tag a mosquito , being hurt by a cat , etc.

He said Thought Robot has only got author statements and comic descriptions

Strawman.

I asked for proof that TR can counter reality-warping, you came with author statements absolutely non-sequitur.

They didn't help your case, they didn't confirm anything that you've said.

They did , in fact they confirmed everything I said was true. You have the in comic description that matter , memory and reality can't exist beyond Limbo , and TR is not made up of matter , memory and reality. You have in comic description of how TR views DC as fiction. You have scans of Mxyzptlk stating that Monitors are superior to him. You have scans of a depowered Rox Ogama killing Spectre , Radiant and Presence ( although everyone will not accept this even if they can see it in the scans ) . You have scans of author confirming that Mandrakk is the literal representation of authors in DC comics. What else do you want ? You were clearly trolling there. You were acting as if none of this was posted , and then trying to play victim by portraying as if we're DC fanboys trying to troll. Stop playing victim.

,

What I called headcannon is your interpretation of the author's word. He never confirmed anything that you've said.

Again lying. The one accusing others of lying is lying himself now. I suggest you to go read the scans again , and read the author's statements how he considers Mandrakk to be the literal representation of authors in DC. It ain't that difficult if you aren't biased . Section 29 :

https://comicvine.gamespot.com/forums/gen-discussion-1/final-crisis-explained-2045835/

Both are legit but you was using author's statements about Apples when we were talking about Oranges.

Bad move.

Except I was using your logic against you , but you couldn't bear it so you tried to make me seem as the liar.

I called the mods on your attitude because it goes against the rules.

As I said , anyone would lose their cool with you.

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@johnsmjs36:

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The debate is over and I've already posted Lucifer saying it's only one universe.

@fyron:

Thanks for making me right again through your post.

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@fyron:

Thanks for making me right again through your post.

Sigh...

Yeah thanks for making me right with your one statement. I provided the evidence in the link and debunked your fallacy , and now you haven't got anything to say , nor can you post any scan/link to deny what I posted , since it's coming directly from the author and the comic book. So all you can do is deny. You just proved everything I said about you right. Thanks for that.