Lucifer Morningstar (Vertigo) vs Composite Transformers Verse

Composite Transformers stomp.

Transformers. Beings like Unicron have arguments against Lucifer, and the Transformers has an Omni-Potent being in The One

Wow really? Composite Transformers really is one shotting Lucifer.

I think normal Transformers already stomp via Unicron casually blinking Lucifer. This is negging at its finest.

Well, Lucifer is Mr not impressive, his highball potential is mostly from his statement as 2nd powerful next to TP, although cross-comic statements usually cannot work effectively, and even TP and GEB sometimes suck. E.g. Thinking regular Wanda is the most powerful being in 616? Probably Nah.....

Bump

His highball potential comes from being the will of an Omnipotent that shapes Creation, regardless of how you feel about the Presence and Lucifer, this is his highball and I used his highball and I still think he loses.

The reason why Lucifer loses is that most of the time, even considering he is a divine near-omnipotent being, his omnipotent-backer is trolling the living crap out of him for fun by throwing proxies at him like the Basanos and Fenris, while depowering him which is literally his story by M. Carey is God trolling him so that God can have fun.

But Primus and Unicron see infinity, time, space and distance as irrelevant and are two halves, yin-yang of 'the One' omnipotent of Transformers and are fundamental constants of all creation, they are truly divine and are basically a better version of even 'this' highballed Lucifer and Michael.

Composite Transformers stomp, and they stomp the Endless fodders too.

Lmao Lucy Takes over that verse and uses Unicron as a Minion

..DC verse>>> Transformers Verse FYI

If you consider the Presence as the origin of everyone's infinite power in DC, it implies that every DC god draws power from a self-sustaining source, an uncaused first cause, an unmoved mover, as creating infinity out of nothing transcends mathematics by definition and should be non-dual, greater than the sum of its parts. This perspective conveniently attributes finite anti-feats of DC gods to the Presence so if say, Anti-Monitor gets butchered by mid-tiers, that's the Presence's fault and you can't blame AM for that for example. (I use this similar reasoning for Marvel).

However, if you don't view the Presence as the uncaused first cause in DC, then no one in DC is creating infinity out of nothing and all of DC would get crushed under the heel of Composite Transformers, because the Gods of DC consistently always have finite anti-feats (like having their powers divided into 3, getting tired, unable to infinitely regenerate their infinite power, always losing to Superheroes, etc). while 'claiming' to be infinitely powerful and so you need the Presence being transcendent to justify continuing DC's godtiers are infinitely powerful at all so they can be infinite while having an excuse for simultaneously being finite using a justification to 'fall back' to, that being the Presence.

Even then, Unicron+Primus=Unicron moreso than The One. And that just makes it more powerful

Literally is a fact.

The One is omnipotent and is a reference to the oneeness before duality that transcends the sum of its parts, creating infinity out of nothing with thought thinking itself above cause and above explanation, so you can multiply Unicron and Primus an infinity times over and they still will be inferior to The One by definition, since they are essentially and causally dependent on him for time, agency and motion on their very being, like one's shadow is dependent on one's self.

But Unicron and Primus are basically Lucifer and Michael but have never been trolled by their omnipotent source, at the very least the One has never been shown to be doing that. (assuming we use highballed Lucifer here)

Funny how the people arguing Lucifer have yet to say why.

I can argue in favor of Lucifer, upscale him far more powerful than any other DC wanker on Comicvine, with logic lining up with the story and I still think he loses to composite transformers. Lol

Lucifer's entire story is about him being trolled by God, that is the point of his character and even at the end of his story he still failed to escape God's influence.

@mutantheroic: You’d need to prove he can beat and Omnipotent.

He can’t even beat Unicron, who’s more consistent than most DC/Marvel cosmic tiers

You are no fooling anyone with that chit-chat, regardless about how you might introduce yourself to every user, most of people that ever read you already knows that you are a straight up DC lowballer that preach literally all the time that DC verse is composed by only one single limited sized universe and few realms bound by space-time physics, with a fixiation of lowball Vertigo lore except from The Presence itself, which would still be a low multi fodder following your logic. You can still attempt to monopolize this thread like you do with the rest involving DC characters making it all about yourself and your made-up theories that only shows your actual igorance about DC, but it means it will end as always, which is in everyone leaving the thread because it will turn in a self-centered, boring, repeated DC lowballing blog like every other where you choose to delight us with your presence for all parties included, even for those that are arguing against DC.

DJMasta did a good work explaining how Unicron would scale to high-tiers characters such as Mandrakk (in full power), that already are outscaled by Lucifer https://comicvine.gamespot.com/forums/battles-7/mandrakk-the-dark-monitor-vs-unicron-1540922/?page=3 simply Transformers cosmology is not scaled higher than DC Cosmology, the only character overlaping Lucifer is his own father himself, and which Lucifer still can escape for.

@living_beyonder: You mean the guy both me and Yes destroyed in an argument? Who relied on hyperbole and wank instead of actual feats?

Sure, he did pretty well making a fool of himself. But considering literally nothing anyone has said proves DC cosmology>Transformers, and despite me literally begging people to prove how DC has a bigger cosmology, no one’s shown anything noteworthy. The One>Unicron>Lucifer>=Primus

I can ask same thing for those crying about the lack of arguments for DC, nothing I have read proves that Transformers cosmology scales higher than DC (and that is only when they digny themselves to actually use arguments which it happens 1 out of 10 debates) unless for those fools that still believe that DC is only a multiverse, and it seems that always using lowballing or accusing the other of doing the same you do is what all these threads are based off.

Lucifer has enough to win against Unicron, but actually might not win against The One, and this is avoiding the "omnipotent" argument, which it cannot sustaint itself. Being omnipotent in one verse not translate as being omnipotent in another, and DC is has more than one so called omnipotent character that governs its own infinite sphere of multiverses + dimensions and yet outside it he is no longer it compared with other beings, and as Lucifer at Devil At Heart comic proves, The Presence (another "omnipotent" that overlaps a verse that has nothing to envy the one of Transformers) seems to need the conceptual narrative of Lucifer to function himself, which brings another reason of why the omnipotent argument not works here, only scaling and feats.

Anyone that actually want to inform himself of DC Cosmology for the debate and its size with scans and actual well developed scaling can either found it here, here or here just to show a few, and after reading it, stop trash-talking about the verse or complain about a supposedly lack of arguments against Trasformers cosmology. People that believe they are going to be the next and only ones that with such ease are going to just downplay a well-established known verse and prove to the naive population how overrated it was compared with their new favourite one, are neither that special and almost never accomplish what they claim, not for the lack of actual verses that can do it, but because is straight up pure lowballing, just like it can be found here.

@elspectrum: No, The One from Transformers is not considered omnipotent. According to the information i found in The One is an unknown entity from the Transformers Multiverse who is said to have created Primus and Unicron at the beginning of time. However, there is no indication that The One possesses unlimited power or is all-knowing.

@elspectrum: There’s literally infinite dimensions in transformers, temporal plains that govern their own dimensions, etc.

All DC wankers do is claim that DC is one thing and never back it up. Your links further prove that.

I see, thanks for the information

@mann1234: There’s been only three times we’ve ever seen him or he’s been mentioned, I believe it’s stated he’s all knowing and all powerful in either the guidebook or the Manga. Not sure which though

My links (of DC threads and blogs made by people who took a lot of work in sustain their takes and provided their own evidence with scans and argumentation even more solid than you have done to sustain Transformers cosmology until now) that you surely not even opened, proves how your logic and accusations to DC lacks of any kind of base, and how regardless about what response people provided to you, your are fixiated to just our own opinion to just downplay DC, which makes your acussations for DC debaters even more of a temporary excuse, since to you is the same If people reply to what you ask or If they do not, they would still be people that never backs up anything. I am not denying that there are infinite dimensions in transformers, surely there are....and? DC also has infinite dimensions, literally new dimensions are created in every level of existence from thoughts and possibilities, which exists above gemoetrical and mathematical dimensions by their own that exists in every universe and contained within The Bleed, or even in the microverse which is a multiverse with his own cosmology structure existing in sub-atomic particles as foundation of all of reality. Seems that for you to prove that Transformers is bigger you have to straight up deny that in DC that exists as well, even If is backed up, which is unnecesary. I am not saying that Transformers verse lacks either of infinite universes, timelines, or dimensions, simply that is not proof of being bigger than DC, I honestly no feel in the need to even explaining this, is explained in the links I sended after all, I can back it up further of course, but If you are not even bothering in reading what is was previously posted...

@chris2kzombieki:

But it is debateable did The One created the multiverse or not. There has been another God that very called the Creator who enginered multiverse and cloud space/cloud world (a void like pleace capable to contain infinite timelines.

And we don’t know does The One scales to Creator or not. Or with else worlds we don’t know who is more powerful.

@mann1234: The One and The Creator are the same being. This is confirmed by Vector.

@chris2kzombieki: From what I have found, they are both separate entities. The One is more directed to the Transformers Lore and Multiverse, while The Creator guards and maintains the universes, via creating Transformers designed for that task, assuming you’re talking about the Cloudworld Continuity. I don’t think Vector has confirmed this, though from it looks like Vector separates the two in his Q/A.

Check this answers out on Quora it has all the answers

https://www.quora.com/Who-is-supreme-being-of-transformers-omniverse-The-one-The-source-or-The-creator/answer/Martin-Huang-44?ch=10&oid=1477743700099615&share=2255882c&srid=57tBt&target_type=answer

@mann1234: People on Quora also claim IDW Optimus is Hyperversal and can solo dragon ball.

Not the most reliable source.

@elspectrum: and this is avoiding the "omnipotent" argument, which it cannot sustaint itself. Being omnipotent in one verse not translate as being omnipotent in another

Omnipotence is the power to do all things possible. And under an ontological setting, it is the source of all things. I don't know anything about Transformers, but "The One" could very well be a reference to Neoplatonism, which is the absolute singularity of the boundless source from which all things flow from. You cannot argue about something being more powerful than it in any capacity, because it's an entirely abstract thing from which everything flows from, including all abstract forms. You cannot have superior reality warping to it., as all things possible stem from it and are contingent upon it.

And if you're arguing for actually being able to overpower such a thing with brute force, that's just insane. Arguing for levels of power for abstract things in general is hilarious, since you're trying to apply properties exclusive to space-time like mass, force, energy levels, etc. to things that occupy zero space-time, like the laws of physics or 1 + 1 = 2 (aka abstract truths), which are not actual objects or things in space-time. They simply are. Can you punch the inverse-square law? No. How the hell would that even work? What is there to even target? Any form of raw power is just a a product of the abstract rules that govern space-time as well. Trying to destroy the rules with an effect caused by the rules and is contingent on the rules makes no sense. Even the notion of infinity as the limit-value in measure theory and the transfinite numbers in set theory are inferior to The One automatically, as infinity is contingent on the number 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, etc. Meanwhile The One is not contingent on anything. It is The One that produced two, three, four, etc. so to speak. It is not contingent on anything. It is self-referencing. All possible things are contingent on it and thus it cannot be surpassed.

You can have characters who can manipulate the fundamental laws and concepts that created and govern space-time fight each other. The battle would be about who has more versatile manipulation of such things and thus who has less restrictions, but The One has complete governance over all things, so being beyond it in reality warping is stupid. You're trying to control things that stem from it and are contingent upon it. And the control you have over said things is control that also stems from The One.

To clarify, I am referring to The One from Neoplatonism, not the Transformers character. However, the fact it is the supreme being, called The One, and uses Neoplatonic terms like Unicron and Primus having "flowed" from The One (which is how Neoplatonism described all things stemming from The One), that is a pretty decent argument for it being omnipotent. Different from one vaguely being called "God", or being a fictional representation of Yahweh or something, who is blatantly not omnipotent anyways due to anti-feats, despite the numerous claims in the Bible.

With that being said, if you think that's enough evidence or not is up to you, assuming there is no anti-feats. I'm iffy on it myself, but it's definitely some evidence. If that's the case, Lucifer would lose because there's an omnipotent here. I don't really see anything impressive from the verse aside from The One potentially though. But again, I don't know much about Transformers.

I'm not even going to begin to bother on your misunderstanding of the Presence or his omnipotence though. Doesn't matter here regardless.

Really? Because I'm pretty certain I've been quite vocal as to my goal, the way you guys wank DC is just really not working, and I am just showing your opposition that you're not even good at upscaling DC at all, that I can do it better than you and I still think Lucifer loses hard.

My intent is to describe DC as to how it really is, and the best way to logically define it is that the Presence is omnipotent and he is the cause of all infinite gods in DC, while also being the cause of their weaknesses to explain their anti-feats, it is the most simple straightforward answer so that we don't pay attention to everytime Dream gets a finite anti-feat so we can blame the Presence for programming that weakness on his powers.

Now, If you truly believed Lucifer is outside spatial dimensions, why do you even bother mentioning spatial dimensions in your scaling then? It's not relevant.

And If you think I do this to impress anyone, you're wrong, I do this for myself to test and improve my views when put up to scrutiny.

How would Transformers or DC scale higher than the other when, they're both infinite in size and both have omnipotents that transcend the sum of their parts being the harmony behind all magic in both settings? Pull up what special unique abilities that Lucifer has to the table instead.

This scaling and feats you talk about is mostly abuse of ZFC set theory, cantorian logic and n-dimensional spaces you largely do not understand at all and was already debunked by SeventhMoon, so therefore your ideology where you scale that one infinite cosmology as bigger than another is meaningless.

Unicron is basically Lucifer except he was never trolled by his omnipotent-benefactor and can create a multiverse from nothing. Lucifer isn't surviving an encounter against what is basically him but better.

And no, being omnipotent in one verse should translate to being omnipotent in another, by definition, an omnipotent is a universal force that theologically defines and unifies any describable universe and system into one uncaused first cause, under one power, mind and will, to explain why one universe exists as opposed to absolutely any other possible world.

And no, Lucifer isn't entirely beyond spatial dimensions otherwise he would be omnipresent within the context of DC which he clearly is not, but that's not too bad for him, it's not like most infinite characters in fiction are omnipresent either.

Well aside from that, the One is an uncaused power that doesn't require priori justification, explanation or energy sources, it is described as a divine abstract unity so it's not dependent on any concept but itself so it's most likely omnipotent via occam's razor.

DC Cosmology outscales Transformers, so Lucifer wins against the majority, but I have my doubts about The One If he is the supreme being of his verse as an omnipotent being, but it seems that no.

@mutantheroic: You're somebody who goes against the nonsense so many wankers say. It's honestly impossible to find somebody like you who goes against blindly just following what everybody says like an echo chamber

This is the same as Unicron vs Lucifer

https://comicvine.gamespot.com/forums/battles-7/composite-unicron-vs-composite-lucifer-2310371/

DC's cosmology doesn't outscale Transformers at all. LOL. What the hell are you talking about??????

Putting it in poll format will skew the actual logic behind voting. Likely a popularity contest atm

It's how it always goes. Lucy takes over the votes, but the comments always win. Same happened in another thread too. Not many Lucy defenders maybe

Prove. It.

@divineteth: It usually is. Even in terms of the actual arguments, destinyman has outright admitted it’s bias.

@leijona:

🤡

Lucifer wins, greater feats, superior cosmology and higher scaling. A question though, is this some kind of soap opera of something? The whole thread is based of Transformers verse fans doing a hunger strike in the comments, having casual coffe conversations and crying for DC fans being mean and not putting arguments (which they did btw) by doing virtually nothing in the process from the moment the thread started, rather that claimed that they already did it in past battles which supposedly happened a year ago and they won despite being counter-argumented even then and putting reasons of why they stil keep doing nothing at all. Aside for the crappy theological discussion of one dude above defending the idea of God over his peasants, which is unrelated, this is a manifest of why Transformer fans should still be ignored.

All you type of people have is claims. Transformers cosmology is so overlooked lol. It's far superior to DC and Marvel BY FAR

Lucifer's greatest feat is Unicron's weakest feat..

@hotu_gauntlet: There’s multiple threads, respect threads, etc that continuously prove what you wrote wrong. Vidi15kings clusters is a great example.

Theres a difference between refusing to give actual arguments and simply not having the time. Note, that’s there’s not a single person that’s proven how DC’s cosmology is better lol. Nor how Lucifer had better feats.

Theres a clear bias towards DC specifically, where their fanboys refuse to believe a verse has higher scaling.

The Lucifer meta literally died 4 months ago. Why is it coming back???? Like genuinely, look at their account btw. They have to be alts, all of them are under 100 posts.