Lucifer Morningstar v. Classic Molecule Man

Who wins?

Round 1: Location: Earth 616

Round 2: Location: Hell

@soratoumiga: "Classic" Molecules man is more in Squirrel Girl's league than LM. And anyway, I hate him. LM mops the etheral floor with him.

inb4 "stomp" answers.

Again, it really depends on how you interpret Pre Retcon Molecule Man and Full Powered Lucifer's power.

You know, how many Universes and Creations were there in the Mansions of Silence that Lucifer destroyed (according to CV, Lucifer destroyed infinite universes in the Mansions of Silence). We don't know many Universes that Lucifer destroyed, we really don't. But perhaps untold billions of them at the very least. People are saying it was infinite, I've seen no evidence to such a thing, but still searching for it. We also do not know of the nature of the dimensions inside Lucifer's creation, there are infinite realms as per the gate fragments, but beyond that, we do not know.

Or why did it take a while for MM to muster a finite multi-universal times billion energy attack against Beyonder during SWII and blablabla, we rationalize back and forth. Kind of funny that WF Mxy can dish out Multiversal power at a faster rate than MM did against Beyonder but is placed below MM for example.

At face value, they're both just baseline Multiversal, (without the dimensional wanking) just like how Hadou Gods are just baseline Multiversal without outerverse or dimension wanking. By feats of course. It would be an inquantifiable outcome and would just be a stalemate. I really have no problem with stalemates.

Using dimensiony shit, they're both massively above High Hyperversal/Megaversal. That's assuming you're the type of guy who likes Cardinal Tiering or "my infinity is bigger than your infinity" arguments, since it was mathematically proven there is no difference between Omniversal/Hyperversal/Megaversal/Multiversal. Infinite Universes is Infinite. But its fiction amiryt? we throw logic out the window.

The rest of the people later commenting on this thread will just be Marvel people who use favorable interpretation of Marvel's Cosmological Powers, and DC fans doing the same thing, ignoring Lucifer and DC's flaws and shit.

It's fucking 2018, people are not aware, we're just using the same arguments that countless similar threads on CV already occurred, incapable of looking at shit in different aspects because of the Marvel vs DC tribalism. Reality is that Marvel fans lowball DC more than Weebs, Lovecraft Wankers and Q wankers do and DC fans lowball Marvel more than Weebs, Lovecraft Wankers and Q wankers do.

I typically reject "Omniversal" because Omniverse is relative to the total Universes in a fictional setting, which could be smaller or not compared to other fictions. Half Omniversal destruction in Umineko is more impressive than Full Omniversal destruction in Undertale for example.

Morningstar, isn’t he like the second most powerful being in DC

Depends on interpretation. DC's Cosmological Omnipotent Hierarchy is worse than Marvel right now, but it is more interesting and has more potential than Marvel (despite being far wonkier).

Do not listen to people who say Lucifer is merely Universal however, that is an outright bullshit lie, anyone saying that really has not read a Sandman comic other than to look for "debunk" shit. At best, lowballing Lucifer with reasonable evidence and reasonable conservative, disconnecting him from DC, the estimates puts him at Casual Multi-Universal since Lucifer loldestroyed the Mansions of Silence which has an unknown number of Universes and Creations that could be finite or Infinite with merely his presence without really doing anything, but never Universal.

The best way to lowball Lucifer is to lowball the Presence who is literally the source or at least scale reference of Lucifer's power. Which we know, Presence is the Void beyond all Voids (linking him to the OM) and disconnecting Lucifer from the Main DC Multiverse and Canon (which is dubious since Lucifer is canon to Sandman that is cross-referencingly canonical to the main DC, especially as per Dark Knights Metal wherein Dream appeared in it as a plot device merlin background obi wan kenobi type character)

At their best Owen wins

Pre Retcon MM wins. Simply more powerful.

Agree with my boy Bruce.

Been done, PR MM wins

@sungsam PR MM stomps.

PR MM is just baseline Multiversal by strict feats from everything I've seen.

Scaling Pre Retcon Molecule Man to a bunch of abstracts who were at the time, not nearly as prominent in feats and multiversal power much later on after SWII is wonky scaling.

PR MM only gets powerful on higheset end interpretation depending on dimensional tiering.

And Lucifer is just universal so he gets stomped hard

Seriously, it's incredibly easy to debunk that Lucifer is limited to Universal. I said already, LOWEST most rational interpretation for Lucifer's tier is Casual Multi-Universal (which really is just as plausible as the High Multiversal interpretation), anything below that is already bullshit lies. Saying that Lucifer is only Universal is already bullshit.

Gallery

Lucifer destroyed the Mansions of Silence with merely his presence. The Mirrors contain other Universes and other Creations of unknown number. He didn't even exert or take an effort in doing it. They just were destroyed by just being around him and didn't give a fuck.

Meanwhile Molecule Man takes a big deal out of mustering a Multi-Universal attack against Beyonder.

Lucifer being Universal is bullshit. That lie was spread by the lowballers who did shitty research on DC/Vertigo. Even the Presence is only Universal scam lie by Marvel siders was also debunked by 3-4 scans with explicit mentions to Multiverse and is also bullshit on other forums many times.

I cannot believe you people just believe in whatever downplay or whatever shit the retards came up with.

Comicvine is surrounded by a pro-Marvel echo chamber who believes in whatever levels of lies so you can sleep at night that a yellow dude with four faces that jobbs a lot has no chance of losing against the evil mean Devil that a lot of Christians fear and hate. But on other forums, there is no level of lies spread this much about DC.

This is where I put VSBattles above Comicvine.

The Mansions of Silence seems vague by the pics.... We don't know how strong these universes are..... Krona of DC & Anti monitor destroyed universes but were defeated by various mortal super heroes. Who has Lucifer fought?

Oh, so the argument went from Lucifer is Universal, to which a lot of Marvel siders were casually insulting us condescendingly for it. And now, you lowballingly nitpick about how durable and strong the Universes Lucifer destroyed casually are (which cannot be quantified, EVER, to justify further lowball). You people are really really getting desperate. That's like asking what the durability attack potency of planet busting feats are.

Apply the same logic and questions to MM's Multi-Dimension feats against Beyonder and you'll get the same result. You cannot really quantify the durability of universes across fiction so we by default assume verse equalization of durability. Do not ask questions of a verse you are arguing against, while not applying the same standards to your side.

Krona and Anti-Monitor are irrelevant. Their anti-Feats are their own, and are probably due to PIS within their context. We're already derailing.

If Lucifer can destroy multiple universes of at least untold billions of them by these scans, at most, by just his presence, he can exert with his power at that range and potency as well.

The point still stands, Lucifer is not limited to Universal, like so, a majority of Marvel siders on Comicvine have been condescendingly yelling to everyone about. And neither is the Presence. Do not try to pull red herrings on the issue just because they were called out again.

How does math prove the difference between Omniversal/Hyperversal/Megaversal/Multiversal???

1. Our current knowledge of math has yet to have a decent grasp on the nature of infinity.
2. Omniverse etc. Extradimensional/Metaphysical constructs are much more than just a concept of "infinity".
3. Until you give some sort of a definition for your other terms (Hyperverse etc.), this statement is literally meaningless and does not even claim anything.

It is difficult to define the boundaries of a "Fictional setting" once you consider the complexity of things such as crossovers, character/firm acquisitions and right transfers. Because of this, the only real fictional setting is simply all of fiction, because all of fiction are capable of potentially crossing-over to each other. Yes, we have to take into account even the mere potential of crossing over sometime in the future. It also make sense to define the largest term of them, Omniverse, as all of fiction. It just makes everyone's life easier by having a common reference point. But this just makes being Omniversal virtually impossible for a fictional character.

Well, I totally agree with everything you said. I'm just saying that there are other views, whether I agree with them or not that it can apply to fiction or not, it does not matter what I think. Because it is totally subjective. Here on CV though, Cardinal tiering (Multiverse/Megaverse/etc) is totally fine.

But if you're on Spacebattles, you'll get shot down by 10-20 different users with "math" expertise applying math to fictional settings where shit is supposed to be illogical and unreal for some reason. And you could very well be right, but the Cardinal tiering system almost doesn't exist there anymore for a reason.

Also, "Omniversal" as a definition varies, you misunderstand, I wasn't clear, when I use Omniverse, I mean the totality of a fiction's setting, not necessarily all of reality. Umineko's Multiverses are simply larger than what we would see from Undertale so destroying half of Umineko's setting would be more impressive than Undertale. But that's beside the point.

People move goal posts in discussions, start defining evidence when we speak of trans-universal power levels differently due to subjective indifference.

For example, the "No True Omnipotents in fiction" camp actually belong to people who say that shit for a reason, because featless Omnipotent characters stomp their favorite anime lolis whom they wank to wankaddon levels. IE VSBattles (at least initially).

The "All Infinities are Equal, no difference between Multiverse and Megaverse, infinite is infinite" camp come from factions of debaters whose favorite characters are only baseline Multiversal and get stomped by LT (who has debatable Megaversal feats) so they apply that muh logic shit to fiction.

My point is that no answer can satisfy everyone because people decide what they wish to satisfy their answers.

MM stomps.

Owen curbstomps this overrated angel.

If by Classic you mean pre-Secret Wars then Lucifer stomps, otherwise MM stomps

Lol people in comic vine are stupid ignoring direct feats Lucifer Morningstar solo's