As some people know, I have been gone for a while, and during that time I have gained a new perspective.
As it is, here is everything you think you know about Lucifer. For those who think he created a universe and those who think he created everything alike.
HERE, THIS IS HOW EVERYTHING STARTED
Yahweh is not the lord of all DC. The Source is connected to DC Creation except it is not the creator as well. The first things that existed was actually Grant Morrison and Co. TOAA of DC. Then came the Overvoid which was timeless and without end, and in that, Night was the first to exist. Night is the basic structure of the entire Creation, but Time created Creation. Or, Time made Creation possible. Time made Yahweh possible, and in the first Creation, Yahweh, or the Presence, did not exist.
We do not know how many creations existed before this one, but once the people collectively thought of a 'Supreme Entity', that was when Creation was remade, by the belief and imagination of humankind, and Yahweh was the creator of everything, and that is how it shall be, and always have been. Now, unto Lucifer. Interestingly, only the most powerful beings know about this. Yahweh, Lucifer, Shekinah Glory, Time...THAT is how the Titan Brothers became God. They manipulated events and belief using miracles. But before the process could be completed, they died. The reason Creation did not adjust was because people still believed in the same thing; a faceless figure. They did not take anything more than power. And the process was cut short by Lucifer before they could transcend time.
Lucifer did not create DC Creation. He has never even made a universe inside it. What actually happened, was that Yahweh created existence. Michael created the first matter, and Lucifer shaped it into suns while Gabriel made the intricate things like the oceans and plants, who later fell in love with a demon, who ripped his heart out (his heart later got destroyed). Then went running back to the Presence, who deemed him impure and decided to make him mortal.
This is why Lucifer could not escape Destiny whenever he wanted; the concept of destiny was not his creation.
So Lucifer has never created a universe, and Michael did not create everything.
Another common mistake is that Lucifer is made of the divine will of God. Nope, he is made of his own will.
What this means is that Lucifer's third best feat is still creating his own totality outside of the one that was created by Time and Night, away from the effects of belief. What later happened was that Elaine became God and all that does not matter.
Lucifer's best feat still is being able to tank a blast that can wipe out all that exists, and Michael has a lot, among them is the ability to beat Lucifer easily.
They did not create the Source, and I have no idea how it's power compares to the brothers but since it was able to make Spectre the equivalent of Eternity, it should be on the same level of power, but weaker than Time and Night and Glory.
Basically:
Grant Morrison.
Overvoid.
Time, Night, Yahweh, Glory. Possibly the Source, I will try to find out more about this one later.
@jardinain2@goldchamp101 Here you go. This is the real thing. They are powerful without being the supreme creators, but their feats still stand. Just not outlandish ones like they created the Source, time, and the Endless. But their power levels are still the same (or much much lower, not being the creators of the Source made them just multiversal instead of something else entirely. Lucifer should be LT level, instead of being able to challenge the Beyonder like my CaV with Jwwprod. The only reason we tied is because in that, I wrongly stated that they created DC Creation and everything in it)
@van_cere: What are Micheals best feats? i only know about Lucy.
Edit: if Lucifer's best feat is tanking a mutliversal blast, i guess hes above IG, i would put him on par with Insane Genis-Vell. from my research it appears that Micheal is much more powerful than Lucifer, is that true or false?
@jardinain2:That is true. There are many instances where Michael is shown to be more powerful, but I like the history lesson best. Think of Lucifer's army and Lucifer himself. All the angels that have rebelled, all the demons in Hell, and all the Lilim together. Demons like Trigon and Neron (only a minor Hell lord) and worse along with Lucifer himself.
An interesting analysis, though I don't know what exactly you debunked. Here's my take on it:
Yahweh is not the lord of all DC. The Source is connected to DC Creation except it is not the creator as well.
This is somewhat true. This is the title Elaine now holds, though based on what you say later, I don't think that's your implication. As it stands, both Yahweh and Elaine are the only true omnipotent forces, and therefore the two "lords of all DC".
The first things that existed was actually Grant Morrison and Co. TOAA of DC.
There's no evidence to suggest this.
Then came the Overvoid which was timeless and without end,
The Void always existed, therefore nothing can precede it, only coexist.
and in that, Night was the first to exist.
Yahweh is eternal just like the Void and therefore predates Night. Moreover, Yahweh's first creations were Lucifer, Michael and Gabriel. Night was either a byproduct of the darkness in Murder Mysteries, or the synergy between Lucifer and Michael creating the multiverse.
Night is the basic structure of the entire Creation, but Time created Creation.
There's no evidence to suggest this.
Or, Time made Creation possible.
Time really has no meaning in the Void, so I don't think that's entirely accurate when points of reference are accounted for.
Time made Yahweh possible, and in the first Creation, Yahweh, or the Presence, did not exist.
Time made Yahweh? If Yahweh is eternal, then he always existed. To what degree dreams shaped him, per Carey's allusion to Sandman #18 in Lucifer #75, is unknown.
We do not know how many creations existed before this one, but once the people collectively thought of a 'Supreme Entity', that was when Creation was remade, by the belief and imagination of humankind, and Yahweh was the creator of everything, and that is how it shall be, and always have been.
Yes, this is the gist of what Lucifer #75 takes from Sandman #18, but it's right there in your own words: "that is how it shall be, and always have [sic] been"--Yahweh is eternal and thus neither has a beginning nor an end.
Now, unto Lucifer. Interestingly, only the most powerful beings know about this. Yahweh, Lucifer, Shekinah Glory, Time...
Based on...? Lucifer was the only one shown to know dreams shaped Yahweh. And who's Shekinah?
The reason Creation did not adjust was because people still believed in the same thing; a faceless figure.
There's nothing to suggest the memory of God was erased from people's minds. Furthermore, that had nothing to do with why they didn't become fully omnipotent; it was because not enough time had elapsed.
Lucifer #43
They did not take anything more than power. And the process was cut short by Lucifer before they could transcend time.
That isn't true:
Lucifer #44Lucifer #44
Lucifer did not create DC Creation. He has never even made a universe inside it. What actually happened, was that Yahweh created existence. Michael created the first matter,
That isn't true either. Is Michael himself not matter?
and Lucifer shaped it into suns while Gabriel made the intricate things like the oceans and plants, who later fell in love with a demon, who ripped his heart out (his heart later got destroyed). Then went running back to the Presence, who deemed him impure and decided to make him mortal.
Lucifer did more than shape the stars, but yes, this is mostly accurate.
This is why Lucifer could not escape Destiny whenever he wanted; the concept of destiny was not his creation.
Lucifer did escape Destiny in Lucifer #75, that was the whole point of him leaving the multiverse--finally being free.
So Lucifer has never created a universe,
Well, he didn't create the raw material for it, but he did everything else:
Lucifer #16
and Michael did not create everything.
That depends on what constitutes as everything. He did not create himself, so no, no he did not. Lucifer also conflicts with Murder Mysteries on what was created first, specifically regarding the Silver City, so things aren't exactly consistent either.
Another common mistake is that Lucifer is made of the divine will of God. Nope, he is made of his own will.
Is that something often said? Usually I hear what it is: Lucifer is powered by God, which stems from this panel:
Lucifer #42
What this means is that Lucifer's third best feat is still creating his own totality outside of the one that was created by Time and Night, away from the effects of belief.
Neither Night nor Time as anamorphoic personifications created a totality.
Lucifer's best feat still is being able to tank a blast that can wipe out all that exists,
To elaborate, his best feat is tanking one of Michael's creation blasts while severely weakened.
and Michael has a lot, among them is the ability to beat Lucifer easily.
Michael has never shown the ability to beat Lucifer. In fact, while the two of them were weakened, Lucifer beat him with relative ease. Besides, as Lucifer himself said, "Might is nothing without will."
They did not create the Source, and I have no idea how it's power compares to the brothers but since it was able to make Spectre the equivalent of Eternity, it should be on the same level of power, but weaker than Time and Night and Glory.
First, Glory? He's he has even less feats than Night and Time. Second, the source may be an avatar of God, though it's never been made clear.
Basically:
Grant Morrison.
Grant Morrison is weaker than Mxy and Bat-Mite in World's Funnest, who traveled to the real world and destroyed it along with the writers. The two of them are not omnipotent like Yahweh. Not to mention I think it was Grant Morrison or another writer in an issue of Suicide Squad that was subject to the plot/script and eventually died.
Overvoid.
The Void has nearly no feats. It's eternal, but not omniscient (as seen in Final Crisis), and never implied as omnipotent.
Time, Night,
They have next to no feats. Frankly, based on what's known about them, their child Death, would probably be above them.
Glory.
Featless.
Possibly the Source, I will try to find out more about this one later.
He got beat up by an amped Darkseid in Death of The New Gods.
Yahweh = Elaine > Lucifer > Michael > WF Mxy and Bat-Mite > Grant Morrison >>>> Soulfire Darkseid > The Source
Time and Night don't have enough feats to really place them anywhere. They could be more powerful than Mxy and Bat-Mite, or they could be weaker than Morrison. Still, they're leagues above any version of Darkseid and the Source. Plus, this is also notwithstanding characters such as The Great Evil Beast, The Endless and Kismet.
There's too many personification of The Void or darkness in DC that it's hard to take them seriously anymore,who's really the true darkness in DC? is it Mother Night, The Great Evil Beast,Nekron or Pralaya? Mother Night is featless,Nekron is too weak,The Great Evil Beast defeated everyone who tried to stop him and became one with the Presence,Pralaya absorbed the entire Multiverse and collapsed time until Swamp Thing used the world tree to stop her and restore existence.
About Destiny, I think he's influence is weak in Lucifer's creation.And what I don't understand is how Lucifer can't escape Destiny when weaker characters have done so in the past.He once threw away his book because there were men not recorded in it.At the end of the arc one of the member of the Challengers of the Unknown not only cheated Death but also propelled herself out of The Book of Destiny
The Presence said he was shaped by beliefs,but I don't think he was created by it,in other's story The presence isn't just Yahweh, he's also Buddha,Brahma or Allah etc and Kali is an aspect of Michael.Heaven in DC isn't just Judeo-Christian heaven but is the afterlife of most religions,there's Heaven for every person and their beliefs shapes what their Heaven is.Beliefs shaped Creation but the silver city was stated to exist outside it.Elaine doesn't seem like she's reliant on beliefs to be powerful and Destiny's book was written by Yahweh, that's why when he left Destiny's book change from The Old Script to The New Script and shit started happening like how someone much much weaker than Lucifer escaped his book.But then the Presence appeared as dog in Phantom Stranger making things more complicated because in Vertigo he left creation and killed himself
The Silver City is unaffected by the changes the titan brothers made,because it is seperate from Creation it won't be affected by the changes in Creation.
And if Presence is reliant on the beliefs of humanity then does that mean that if he erase creation it will also erase him from existence? The titans were only able to become god because Yahweh left
And did anyone really believe that Lucifer and Michael created the Source?
Before it was implied that The Source is part of The Presence or behind the source wall is the Judeo-Christian god
Gallery
The Source did'nt give Spectre power like Eternity, it just made him feel what God feels about creation
Gallery
But now The Source has been retconned to be a part of the Overmonitor
It will be less confusing if you think that The Presence in Vertigo is different from The Presence in DC or the events that happened in Vertigo is ignored in mainstream DC.
Pralaya and The Creator who is an aspect of The Presence
When The Presence sleeps all of Creation will be destroyed by Pralaya and Creation will rise again when The Creator wakes up.Creation is an endless cycle
In Sandman, The Presence was never called Yahweh or The Presence he's just called The Creator.
The reason why Fenris wanted to destroy Primum Mobile is because it connects The Presence to Creation and he was only able to destroy it because he was chosen by The Presence
Lucifer talks to Deadman about fate,life,God,Creation
So apparently I was debunked because I had no evidence to support any of my claims, making disapproving it not as hard as you imagine. Damn my willpower for letting me make a better thread instead of memorizing 215 vocab words to use a few hours later. Anyways for those who do not know, I erased my previous thread and made a blog because I like blogs, and because there were just normal comments on it. All except one. It was a really good post which answered everything I stated, which certainly takes time and I am impressed. Therefore I will pay for my laziness and give you guys the debunking you deserve, although it might not be the one you want.
Here is the amazing post, and in it was my original debunking (I will spoiler block to save space). Now, as you can see, both of us are using the original Lucifer and not the one recently made by that woman.
Debunking Time:
It is true that Yahweh and now Elaine are omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent. But saying they have always been that way is untrue. Remember how Yahweh stated he was 'shaped by external forces'? Here is Mike Carey himself explaining it.
Note how he says you can take it as the Writers are the external forces? That was my original belief. But once Mike stated his own definition which is the one we debaters use, you can tell what he means. Humankind did not know how they came to be, so they create gods and goddesses to fill in the blanks. Once enough people in Vertigo Creation believed in an all powerful all knowing primal force, Creation was reset so that it was like that all along, and the other versions will have never have existed. It definitely means that Yahweh is now the one who created everything and it has always been that way, like this:
This means that for all intents and purposes, Yahweh is eternal and has always existed and is the true power. While what I am about to say will not change any of that, it will give a clearer view of how powerful Time and Night are.
As we know, nobody even remembers of a time when Cats were the thing because there never was a time like that thanks to us, but Dream knows. Dream might not know the truth about Yahweh, but Lucifer certainly does, Yahweh, being omnipotent, does as well (and because of his omnipotence he can easily make it so that not only nobody remembers, but it really, like really has never happened. That power of belief did not influence the most powerful entities, but Yahweh can easily use the most powerful form of reality manipulation, a retcon which only writers and omnipotent beings can do, and change it but he did not, because he did not need to. This is just to satisfy the people who only care about power levels. Yahweh is omnipotent guys, and this time not even belief can change it) and there is someone else who not only remembers, but has 'existed' in those times. That person is Time, father of The Endless.
this guy. even his realm is beyond reality and logic.
Time made existence possible, and Night existed before Time. But because the Overvoid exists, we can only imagine Night as the 'cosmic ground floor'. Now this is where I will reply to Cruel. This has nothing to do with Lucifer, but I might as well get this straight.
he said the Overvoid was the first that came into being. He meant the actual paper, which when you look at it like that, it really is. The Chinese created it. But the actual concept of the page being sentient was created by Grant Morrison, and since the Vertigo Creation is similar but does not follow the DC Creation, the fact it gained sentience might not even have happened. So when I said first came Grant Morrison and TOAA, I meant the writers themselves because if Grant did not write that, the Overmonitor would not even exist.
And to quote Lucifer, 'it is a purely local phenomenon' because it definitely does not exist in Marvel although the concept of a Void does.
This is something I posted before making the thread and since it is there, I might as well use it. It shows what I meant about the writers being the first to exist.
Also, I personally find it weird Cruel does not know about Shekinah Glory even though he thinks himself learned enough to counter my post. Shekinah Glory is of the First Circle, appeared in the Sandman Overture as an old dude with glasses. Shekinah Glory translated to English means the Glory of God, so he should be another aspect of Yahweh. Also, it was weird that he somehow thought I said the memory of God was erased even though that is clearly not what I said. But I SHOULD clarify. What I meant by faceless figure is quite easy to understand. It means that No man knows what Yahweh looks like, thus faceless figure.
he reason Creation did not adjust was because people still believed in the same thing; a faceless figure.
There's nothing to suggest the memory of God was erased from people's minds. Furthermore, th
In another example, he countered my argument that the virtue of the Titans was to transcend time by saying 'that isn't true' then posting unrelated scans. By now It is quite clear that all he cares about is disagreeing with me, not actually providing good sources. Too bad, because Lucifer himself explained it that way:
But now it is worth noting that unlike in my CaV against JwwProd where I painstakingly used my own comics from my ipad, then transferred it to my computer, you can easily find this on google. This is the second time he could have easily avoided embarresment if he had just googled it, like with Shekinah Glory. Or maybe not, Shekinah was hard to find. But not impossible:
Okay, from here I have lost patience.
This is why Lucifer could not escape Destiny whenever he wanted; the concept of destiny was not his creation.
Lucifer did escape Destiny in Lucifer #75, that was the whole point of him leaving the multiverse--finally being free.
Any reader can easily identify the errors in his post. From not getting that the point is him not creating the concept of destiny to the words "whenever he wanted".
You know what? This is not worthy of my blogs. Let this stay here and serve as a reminder that anyone who opposes me, try better. I am not always right, and I began this blog turned post with the intent to find what I got wrong. Now I see, there was no highly informative counter at all. Everything else beneath that was just posts with no further 'evidence'.
An interesting analysis, though I don't know what exactly you debunked. Here's my take on it:
Yahweh is not the lord of all DC. The Source is connected to DC Creation except it is not the creator as well.
This is somewhat true. This is the title Elaine now holds, though based on what you say later, I don't think that's your implication. As it stands, both Yahweh and Elaine are the only true omnipotent forces, and therefore the two "lords of all DC".
The first things that existed was actually Grant Morrison and Co. TOAA of DC.
There's no evidence to suggest this.
Then came the Overvoid which was timeless and without end,
The Void always existed, therefore nothing can precede it, only coexist.
and in that, Night was the first to exist.
Yahweh is eternal just like the Void and therefore predates Night. Moreover, Yahweh's first creations were Lucifer, Michael and Gabriel. Night was either a byproduct of the darkness in Murder Mysteries, or the synergy between Lucifer and Michael creating the multiverse.
Night is the basic structure of the entire Creation, but Time created Creation.
There's no evidence to suggest this.
Or, Time made Creation possible.
Time really has no meaning in the Void, so I don't think that's entirely accurate when points of reference are accounted for.
Time made Yahweh possible, and in the first Creation, Yahweh, or the Presence, did not exist.
Time made Yahweh? If Yahweh is eternal, then he always existed. To what degree dreams shaped him, per Carey's allusion to Sandman #18 in Lucifer #75, is unknown.
We do not know how many creations existed before this one, but once the people collectively thought of a 'Supreme Entity', that was when Creation was remade, by the belief and imagination of humankind, and Yahweh was the creator of everything, and that is how it shall be, and always have been.
Yes, this is the gist of what Lucifer #75 takes from Sandman #18, but it's right there in your own words: "that is how it shall be, and always have [sic] been"--Yahweh is eternal and thus neither has a beginning nor an end.
Now, unto Lucifer. Interestingly, only the most powerful beings know about this. Yahweh, Lucifer, Shekinah Glory, Time...
Based on...? Lucifer was the only one shown to know dreams shaped Yahweh. And who's Shekinah?
The reason Creation did not adjust was because people still believed in the same thing; a faceless figure.
There's nothing to suggest the memory of God was erased from people's minds. Furthermore, that had nothing to do with why they didn't become fully omnipotent; it was because not enough time had elapsed.
Lucifer #43
They did not take anything more than power. And the process was cut short by Lucifer before they could transcend time.
That isn't true:
Lucifer #44Lucifer #44
Lucifer did not create DC Creation. He has never even made a universe inside it. What actually happened, was that Yahweh created existence. Michael created the first matter,
That isn't true either. Is Michael himself not matter?
and Lucifer shaped it into suns while Gabriel made the intricate things like the oceans and plants, who later fell in love with a demon, who ripped his heart out (his heart later got destroyed). Then went running back to the Presence, who deemed him impure and decided to make him mortal.
Lucifer did more than shape the stars, but yes, this is mostly accurate.
This is why Lucifer could not escape Destiny whenever he wanted; the concept of destiny was not his creation.
Lucifer did escape Destiny in Lucifer #75, that was the whole point of him leaving the multiverse--finally being free.
So Lucifer has never created a universe,
Well, he didn't create the raw material for it, but he did everything else:
Lucifer #16
and Michael did not create everything.
That depends on what constitutes as everything. He did not create himself, so no, no he did not. Lucifer also conflicts with Murder Mysteries on what was created first, specifically regarding the Silver City, so things aren't exactly consistent either.
Another common mistake is that Lucifer is made of the divine will of God. Nope, he is made of his own will.
Is that something often said? Usually I hear what it is: Lucifer is powered by God, which stems from this panel:
Lucifer #42
What this means is that Lucifer's third best feat is still creating his own totality outside of the one that was created by Time and Night, away from the effects of belief.
Neither Night nor Time as anamorphoic personifications created a totality.
Lucifer's best feat still is being able to tank a blast that can wipe out all that exists,
To elaborate, his best feat is tanking one of Michael's creation blasts while severely weakened.
and Michael has a lot, among them is the ability to beat Lucifer easily.
Michael has never shown the ability to beat Lucifer. In fact, while the two of them were weakened, Lucifer beat him with relative ease. Besides, as Lucifer himself said, "Might is nothing without will."
They did not create the Source, and I have no idea how it's power compares to the brothers but since it was able to make Spectre the equivalent of Eternity, it should be on the same level of power, but weaker than Time and Night and Glory.
First, Glory? He's he has even less feats than Night and Time. Second, the source may be an avatar of God, though it's never been made clear.
Basically:
Grant Morrison.
Grant Morrison is weaker than Mxy and Bat-Mite in World's Funnest, who traveled to the real world and destroyed it along with the writers. The two of them are not omnipotent like Yahweh. Not to mention I think it was Grant Morrison or another writer in an issue of Suicide Squad that was subject to the plot/script and eventually died.
Overvoid.
The Void has nearly no feats. It's eternal, but not omniscient (as seen in Final Crisis), and never implied as omnipotent.
Time, Night,
They have next to no feats. Frankly, based on what's known about them, their child Death, would probably be above them.
Glory.
Featless.
Possibly the Source, I will try to find out more about this one later.
He got beat up by an amped Darkseid in Death of The New Gods.
Yahweh = Elaine > Lucifer > Michael > WF Mxy and Bat-Mite > Grant Morrison >>>> Soulfire Darkseid > The Source
Time and Night don't have enough feats to really place them anywhere. They could be more powerful than Mxy and Bat-Mite, or they could be weaker than Morrison. Still, they're leagues above any version of Darkseid and the Source. Plus, this is also notwithstanding characters such as The Great Evil Beast, The Endless and Kismet.
@morningdawn12: Yep, The Endless's power is tied to the original Creation, that is the reason the Basanos were tricked. But the Source did gave him the literal power of Eternity though. He was one with everything. I think Eternity is not just the multiverse, but everything and everyone inside as well, if he is not and I am wrong, then yeah, it was more like Godhood.
It is true that Yahweh and now Elaine are omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent. But saying they have always been that way is untrue. Remember how Yahweh stated he was 'shaped by external forces'? Here is Mike Carey himself explaining it [...] This means that for all intents and purposes, Yahweh is eternal and has always existed and is the true power. While what I am about to say will not change any of that, it will give a clearer view of how powerful Time and Night are.
That's again, a reference to Sandman #18 (which you continually refuse to cite, for whatever reason), referring to the power of dreams reshaping the universe. Moreover, you are correct, what you saying does not change the facts of situation, that Yahweh predates both Night and Time, and even if that was not the case, it wouldn't indicate how powerful either of them.
Once enough people in Vertigo Creation believed in an all powerful all knowing primal force, Creation was reset so that it was like that all along, and the other versions will have never have existed.
First, Vertigo is a DC imprint--they are not separate creations, especially when you consider The Sandman premiered before Vertigo existed. Second, this is an assumption, it may be true of Yahweh, but there is nothing to substantiate it as the case for anything else.
this guy, even his realm is beyond reality and logic
So what? So's Delirium's realm and a host of other weaker entities.
Time made existence possible,
Existence is not predicated on time, as time itself is a meaningless concept when in the Void.
and Night existed before Time. But because the Overvoid exists, we can only imagine Night as the 'cosmic ground floor'. Now this is where I will reply to Cruel. This has nothing to do with Lucifer, but I might as well get this straight.
Night is darkness incarnate, and would ultimately represent the darkness after creation. There's no evidence to suggest this personification existed in Elaine's creation, so it's dubious to say she's always been around.
he said the Overvoid was the first that came into being. He meant the actual paper, which when you look at it like that, it really is. The Chinese created it. But the actual concept of the page being sentient was created by Grant Morrison, and since the Vertigo Creation is similar but does not follow the DC Creation, the fact it gained sentience might not even have happened. So when I said first came Grant Morrison and TOAA, I meant the writers themselves because if Grant did not write that, the Overmonitor would not even exist.
And to quote Lucifer, 'it is a purely local phenomenon' because it definitely does not exist in Marvel although the concept of a Void does.
This is needless. You're going on about how the writer begat the page, but it can go on ad infinitum (e.g., the writer's friend influenced X idea, the writer's parents begat him, etc.). There's no sense in including real life events, unless they're represented within the comic, a la World's Funnest, in which case, Grant Morrison's existence is predicated upon Yahweh.
Also, I personally find it weird Cruel does not know about Shekinah Glory even though he thinks himself learned enough to counter my post. Shekinah Glory is of the First Circle, appeared in the Sandman Overture as an old dude with glasses. Shekinah Glory translated to English means the Glory of God, so he should be another aspect of Yahweh.
Few things here. One, not a guy. Two, this is a minor lapse on my part insofar that Glory is most often referred to as simply Glory or Lord Glory--and--I had assumed Shekinah was a separate entity on your list. Third--that's a significant leap in logic--there's nothing to substantiate him as an avatar of God.
Also, it was weird that he somehow thought I said the memory of God was erased even though that is clearly not what I said. But I SHOULD clarify. What I meant by faceless figure is quite easy to understand. It means that No man knows what Yahweh looks like, thus faceless figure.
The context of your post implied nothing of the sort.
In another example, he countered my argument that the virtue of the Titans was to transcend time by saying 'that isn't true' then posting unrelated scans. By now It is quite clear that all he cares about is disagreeing with me, not actually providing good sources. Too bad, because Lucifer himself explained it that way:
All that scan does is support what I stated: Not enough time had elapsed. Moreover, my scan was in response to the "all they took was power" portion of the sentence.
This is the second time he could have easily avoided embarresment if he had just googled it, like with Shekinah Glory. Or maybe not, Shekinah was hard to find. But not impossible:
Why would I be embarrassed over not remembering an obscure, practically irrelevant, character's firstname? Especially when that wasn't his name in other titles? Is there any partciular reason you're harping on something so... trivial?
Any reader can easily identify the errors in his post.
Well, I can say the same thing about you and yours, but y'know, the difference is, I actually bothered to prove it--twice now.
From not getting that the point is him not creating the concept of destiny to the words "whenever he wanted".
The concept of Destiny not being his creation is irrelevant--he actually was able to escape it whenever he wanted, because if you recall, God's gateway was open for the bulk of the series, emphasis on Lucifer #75.
You know what? This is not worthy of my blogs. Let this stay here and serve as a reminder that anyone who opposes me, try better. I am not always right, and I began this blog turned post with the intent to find what I got wrong. Now I see, there was no highly informative counter at all.
This is an incredibly lazy and pretentious attempt at a rebuttal.
Everything else beneath that was just posts with no further 'evidence'.
The irony here is that this statement is not evidenced.
Yep, The Endless's power is tied to the original Creation, that is the reason the Basanos were tricked.
Except that isn't entirely true, as Death's power/jurisdiction isn't tied to any specific creation.
@cruelestashley: So....you think his first name is Lord. Okay. Also, the posts are there. You want to argue further go ahead. I personally find arguing with actual statements from pages and writers quite useless, but go ahead.
I'd just like to point out that Shekinah Glory does not mean "Gods Glory" or "Glory of God". 'Shekinah' means "dwelling of the devine presence of God". So 'Shekinah Glory' means "Dwelling of the devine presence of God's Glory". Shekinah Glory or Lord Glory, or Glory is not, based on his name, an aspect or avatar of God, but an Avatar OF an Aspect of God. He is the "dwelling", the resting place, the settling place, the residence of the presence of "Gods Glory", but not the Glory of God itself - which is the Aspect of God.
@asgardianbrony: Oh. Well upon introduction, he was a market warden in Faerie. In Overture he was "of the First Circle", and confronted by Dream for information regarding the fate of the universe.
An interesting analysis, though I don't know what exactly you debunked. Here's my take on it:
Yahweh is not the lord of all DC. The Source is connected to DC Creation except it is not the creator as well.
This is somewhat true. This is the title Elaine now holds, though based on what you say later, I don't think that's your implication. As it stands, both Yahweh and Elaine are the only true omnipotent forces, and therefore the two "lords of all DC".
The first things that existed was actually Grant Morrison and Co. TOAA of DC.
There's no evidence to suggest this.
Then came the Overvoid which was timeless and without end,
The Void always existed, therefore nothing can precede it, only coexist.
and in that, Night was the first to exist.
Yahweh is eternal just like the Void and therefore predates Night. Moreover, Yahweh's first creations were Lucifer, Michael and Gabriel. Night was either a byproduct of the darkness in Murder Mysteries, or the synergy between Lucifer and Michael creating the multiverse.
Night is the basic structure of the entire Creation, but Time created Creation.
There's no evidence to suggest this.
Or, Time made Creation possible.
Time really has no meaning in the Void, so I don't think that's entirely accurate when points of reference are accounted for.
Time made Yahweh possible, and in the first Creation, Yahweh, or the Presence, did not exist.
Time made Yahweh? If Yahweh is eternal, then he always existed. To what degree dreams shaped him, per Carey's allusion to Sandman #18 in Lucifer #75, is unknown.
We do not know how many creations existed before this one, but once the people collectively thought of a 'Supreme Entity', that was when Creation was remade, by the belief and imagination of humankind, and Yahweh was the creator of everything, and that is how it shall be, and always have been.
Yes, this is the gist of what Lucifer #75 takes from Sandman #18, but it's right there in your own words: "that is how it shall be, and always have [sic] been"--Yahweh is eternal and thus neither has a beginning nor an end.
Now, unto Lucifer. Interestingly, only the most powerful beings know about this. Yahweh, Lucifer, Shekinah Glory, Time...
Based on...? Lucifer was the only one shown to know dreams shaped Yahweh. And who's Shekinah?
The reason Creation did not adjust was because people still believed in the same thing; a faceless figure.
There's nothing to suggest the memory of God was erased from people's minds. Furthermore, that had nothing to do with why they didn't become fully omnipotent; it was because not enough time had elapsed.
Lucifer #43
They did not take anything more than power. And the process was cut short by Lucifer before they could transcend time.
That isn't true:
Lucifer #44Lucifer #44
Lucifer did not create DC Creation. He has never even made a universe inside it. What actually happened, was that Yahweh created existence. Michael created the first matter,
That isn't true either. Is Michael himself not matter?
and Lucifer shaped it into suns while Gabriel made the intricate things like the oceans and plants, who later fell in love with a demon, who ripped his heart out (his heart later got destroyed). Then went running back to the Presence, who deemed him impure and decided to make him mortal.
Lucifer did more than shape the stars, but yes, this is mostly accurate.
This is why Lucifer could not escape Destiny whenever he wanted; the concept of destiny was not his creation.
Lucifer did escape Destiny in Lucifer #75, that was the whole point of him leaving the multiverse--finally being free.
So Lucifer has never created a universe,
Well, he didn't create the raw material for it, but he did everything else:
Lucifer #16
and Michael did not create everything.
That depends on what constitutes as everything. He did not create himself, so no, no he did not. Lucifer also conflicts with Murder Mysteries on what was created first, specifically regarding the Silver City, so things aren't exactly consistent either.
Another common mistake is that Lucifer is made of the divine will of God. Nope, he is made of his own will.
Is that something often said? Usually I hear what it is: Lucifer is powered by God, which stems from this panel:
Lucifer #42O
What this means is that Lucifer's third best feat is still creating his own totality outside of the one that was created by Time and Night, away from the effects of belief.
Neither Night nor Time as anamorphoic personifications created a totality.
Lucifer's best feat still is being able to tank a blast that can wipe out all that exists,
To elaborate, his best feat is tanking one of Michael's creation blasts while severely weakened.
and Michael has a lot, among them is the ability to beat Lucifer easily.
Michael has never shown the ability to beat Lucifer. In fact, while the two of them were weakened, Lucifer beat him with relative ease. Besides, as Lucifer himself said, "Might is nothing without will."
They did not create the Source, and I have no idea how it's power compares to the brothers but since it was able to make Spectre the equivalent of Eternity, it should be on the same level of power, but weaker than Time and Night and Glory.
First, Glory? He's he has even less feats than Night and Time. Second, the source may be an avatar of God, though it's never been made clear.
Basically:
Grant Morrison.
Grant Morrison is weaker than Mxy and Bat-Mite in World's Funnest, who traveled to the real world and destroyed it along with the writers. The two of them are not omnipotent like Yahweh. Not to mention I think it was Grant Morrison or another writer in an issue of Suicide Squad that was subject to the plot/script and eventually died.
Overvoid.
The Void has nearly no feats. It's eternal, but not omniscient (as seen in Final Crisis), and never implied as omnipotent.
Time, Night,
They have next to no feats. Frankly, based on what's known about them, their child Death, would probably be above them.
Glory.
Featless.
Possibly the Source, I will try to find out more about this one later.
He got beat up by an amped Darkseid in Death of The New Gods.
Yahweh = Elaine > Lucifer > Michael > WF Mxy and Bat-Mite > Grant Morrison >>>> Soulfire Darkseid > The Source
Time and Night don't have enough feats to really place them anywhere. They could be more powerful than Mxy and Bat-Mite, or they could be weaker than Morrison. Still, they're leagues above any version of Darkseid and the Source. Plus, this is also notwithstanding characters such as The Great Evil Beast, The Endless and Kismet.
What or who actually create those Virtus of the Titan?
Yahweh/Presence was never created by humans, merely his own state of being was adjusted and shaped to their beliefs and dreams, you can shape something eternal without initially creating it. Shaping and Creating are not the same thing.
Humanity never created cats nor did it create Yahweh, they changed and retconned cats and reshaped them. Yahweh states that he was eternal, but shaped, but still eternal nonetheless, a cosmic being or probably force that can get influenced by dreams.
Besides, there is also DC scans that basically says that the Dream influence goes literally both ways.
Here, are two scans from the Spectre, it is described that the Universe and all its variations are results of God's dream.
Dreams shape reality and influence each other. Your own dream influences and shapes the God who made you, into what you wish it to be.
Here, God shapes Humans with his dreams and imagination, and that includes the alternate realities and universes that are quantum created by the dreams, fears and hopes of those Humans within Creation.
If Dream was the one who created Yahweh, it would not follow that he would acknowledge Yahweh's creation (Lucifer) as being way above him in power canonically. Rather it was influence of teensy beings.
Oh, and by the way, in case any of you haven't noticed, Grant Morrison is not the end be all for DC's Cosmology and Power characters. Other authors can change things up, or their contributions can be interpreted in conjunction with his, even if there was probably zero collaboration.
Grant Morrison's Cosmology follows a finite dimensional multiverse, but JM Matteis thinks otherwise and for that we still put Thought Robot Superman as well as the Primal Monitor as being at least infinite dimensional even if the GM Cosmology has never followed such a thing initially. Let's not pretend that it is only Lucifer or the Judeo-Christian source of DC whom we scale to the cosmology of DC Cosmologies outside a certain writer's influence and into others.
Monitor Mind is the ultimate creator and inside its void lays every other multiverse that exists in DC and other fictions as well. Pralayas Multiverse is one DC Multiverse, The Presence of Vertigo is another contained Multiverse, JLA 2018 is it's own, DK Returns is another, Flashpoint is another, COIE is another, Teen Titans is another, Silver Era Classics are another. They are all separate entity Multiverses with their own structures and God Creators who made them, and they are all floating inside the Megaverse of DC Comics as a fictive work.
Overvoid is the literal pages that these fictive works are printed and written into and the story was shown in Final Crisis that the ink vs the page is at war. Lucifer and Michael created one Multiverse in the DC megastructure. The Presence is just one Creator. Pralaya is another. Perpetua is another. They are not superseded at all by The Presence simply because Vertigo fanboys say so. This is a great thread, shows a lot of information that most "Debaters" here don't want to acknowledge.
Log in to comment