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#1 Posted by mr-luxcipher (5686 posts) - - Show Bio
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#2 Posted by SuperEntity (1282 posts) - - Show Bio

Team 2.

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#3 Posted by Al-Capone (695 posts) - - Show Bio

team 2 is superior.

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#4 Posted by Archangel01 (357 posts) - - Show Bio

Any archangel stomp

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#6 Edited by Archangel01 (357 posts) - - Show Bio
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#7 Posted by green_skaar (10428 posts) - - Show Bio

Team 2

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#8 Posted by jardinain2 (4212 posts) - - Show Bio

Thanos finger-snap stomps.

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#9 Edited by TheSuperor (5147 posts) - - Show Bio

Michael and Lucifer can each solo.

Agreed, but that is a dangerous thing to claim here on CV.

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#10 Posted by Helloman (7217 posts) - - Show Bio

Team two wins.

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#11 Posted by Sayo786 (565 posts) - - Show Bio

How the hell is team one going to lose? You put a the most OP divine creation/destruction duo together. Team 1 is the closest we have below TOAA. Team 1 stomp. Maybe not solo each but together they rek.

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#12 Posted by jardinain2 (4212 posts) - - Show Bio

@christovgrigori said:

Michael and Lucifer can each solo.

Agreed, but that is a dangerous thing to claim here on CV.

Id like to see a single reason why you both think that.

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#13 Posted by TheSuperor (5147 posts) - - Show Bio

@jardinain2: The Endless are established to be below Lucy and Michael, Morpheus was scared of and regarded Lucy as the most powerful being in creation. Death has no claim over Michael or Lucifer. Lucifer is stated to be greater than the angel of death himself.

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This is the baseline of where we can start. Before people get tangled up in terms used to describe creation. The Endless are all multiversal entities, who are established to be below Lucifer and Michael.

Lucifer has by the writers statements created a multiverse. Even if the term universe is on occasion used to describe multiverse.

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Well presented in this scan is that Lucifer's creation is infinite. So infinite universe=infinite multiverse. Hope we can agree on that

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This is already better than most feats I have seen from Thanos. Destroying half the life in the universe, defeating Eternity etc. I know that Thanos has the power to destroy the multiverse, although impressive, isn't even going to leave a scratch on either of the angels. Also note that I find Eternity to be very inconsistent and at times unimpressive.

This is Lucifer, while severely weakened, tanking a multiversal blast. None of team 2 will leave a scratch on either of the angels. Lucifer did also tank a creation busting blast with the energy released from Michael's "death" (reincarnation).

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This is proof that Michael and Lucifer possesses the power to destroy the multiverse as well. I don't remember Thanos flat out tanking any thing of this caliber.

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This is Lucifer destroying the Mansions of Silence that contained multiple/possible infinite of universes, with his mere presence. Hopefully debunking the archangels are only universal crap. Although I know you are aware that the angels are multiversal, just trowing it out there :)

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Lucifer burning pages out of Dream's book, which is a multiversal feat on his own. His lightbringer flames can burn through about anything and I'm really not confident in either member of team two's ability to tank something like that.

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Lucifer also destroyed the logos, which is the literal word of God. Logically a way greater feat than any multiverse busting.

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Feats I can provide scans for are also. Michael defeating Spectre, who was fully supported by the Presence at the time, although not unbound. Michael being referred to as the second most powerful being in creation. Lucifer bending the laws of creation managing the kill Fenris. Lucifer appearing outside of time and space or 16-D space as people are referencing it. Michael being able to wipe out the host of heaven with a gesture. Lucifer was barely affected by Gabriel's spear that was empowered by God. Lucifer's reaction speed being described as close to instantaneous as possible.

The way I see this fight; Michael and Lucifer both possesses far greater destructive powers than either on team 2 and team 2 does not have the durability feats to tank this. Team 2 does not possess powers great enough to even scratch the angels as they have tanked multiverse destroying blasts even while severely injured.

Also to add to the fight is that Thanos is at times a cocky moron and Lucifer is a manipulative genius. Lucifer wouldn't even need to get his hands dirty to make Thanos his bitch. But that is another debate for another time? I guess...

Note that I'm referencing Thanos more than Chaos King because of my limited knowledge on him, but to my understanding he is weaker than Thanos.

Don't expect me to respond immediately, as I am busy with preparing for my finals...

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#14 Posted by ginman333 (1951 posts) - - Show Bio

Leaning towards team 1 with mild difficulty. If this was HOTU Thanos, Id go with team 2, but it would have nothing to do with the Chaos King helping in any way.

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#15 Posted by jardinain2 (4212 posts) - - Show Bio

@thesuperor: Im just going to assume you A. either know nothing about IG Thanos, or B. have not read my CaV against Van_cere

Any way ill try my best to show the power of the Infinity Gauntlet.

The Endless are established to be below Lucy and Michael, Morpheus was scared of and regarded Lucy as the most powerful being in creation. Death has no claim over Michael or Lucifer. Lucifer is stated to be greater than the angel of death himself.

I don't view Lucifer as above the concept of Death in any way, he just told Death she had no hold over him, in the sense that he wasn't ready to die at that time, hell even Ashley believes as much.

This is the baseline of where we can start. Before people get tangled up in terms used to describe creation. The Endless are all multiversal entities, who are established to be below Lucifer and Michael.

Lucifer has by the writers statements created a multiverse. Even if the term universe is on occasion used to describe multiverse.

Multiversal feats for the Endless? creating a multiverse (ignoring the obvious debate that can stem from this) is still nothing, Thanos curbstomps beings than can create Multiverses, hell he stomped all of the abstracts in Marvel at once, with absolute ease. Chaos king at the height of his power, was strong enough to destroy Hercules (this Hercules re-created the Marvel Multiverse) so that feat is essentially useless, and its also even more useless since from my understanding, Michael was the one who released the Demiurgic power to create that Creation, and Lucifer just shaped it.

This is already better than most feats I have seen from Thanos. Destroying half the life in the universe, defeating Eternity etc. I know that Thanos has the power to destroy the multiverse, although impressive, isn't even going to leave a scratch on either of the angels. Also note that I find Eternity to be very inconsistent and at times unimpressive.

If you want durability feats, Genis-Vell who was able to one shot Entropy, and recreate the Marvel Multiverse with a single casual blast of energy; was unable to kill Eternity until he wanted to die, that should speak volumes of his power.

Eternity's power was described as Infinite while only being a fraction of what he really is. and i can do some wonky scaling but it would be hard to explain with current Marvel, and the First Firmament.

And yes he jobs a ton, but every time he does its mostly because people who aren't Jim starlin are writing him.

This is Lucifer, while severely weakened, tanking a multiversal blast. None of team 2 will leave a scratch on either of the angels. Lucifer did also tank a creation busting blast with the energy released from Michael's "death" (reincarnation).

As i have already pointed out, Thanos can destroy beings that can so sell, or at least survive multiversal blasts.

I don't see why he would have a problem hurting them, since hes done so to more powerful beings.

This is proof that Michael and Lucifer possesses the power to destroy the multiverse as well. I don't remember Thanos flat out tanking any thing of this caliber.

Magus with the Infinity gauntlet redirected a multiverse++ busting attack while missing a Gem, Thanos showed mastery well above what Magus displayed. so if you want to scale: an incomplete IG can redirect and no sell the best attacks Lucifer and Michael have shown thus far, and Thanos has shown even better feats than Magus all save that one durability feat.

Eternity didn't even hurt him, and Eternity's power was well above multiverse. unless you want that wonky scaling coming in hehe.

This is Lucifer destroying the Mansions of Silence that contained multiple/possible infinite of universes, with his mere presence. Hopefully debunking the archangels are only universal crap. Although I know you are aware that the angels are multiversal, just trowing it out there :)

Thats the problem, if they are only multiversal; with multiversal feats, how can they be above Thanos who has shown superiority to multiversal beings time, and time again?

Lucifer burning pages out of Dream's book, which is a multiversal feat on his own. His lightbringer flames can burn through about anything and I'm really not confident in either member of team two's ability to tank something like that.

I know that Dream's book is multiversal (although i thought it was the Book of Destiny not Dream) but what durability feats does it have?

Regardless i think the Magus feat still stands.

Lucifer also destroyed the logos, which is the literal word of God. Logically a way greater feat than any multiverse busting.

I don't recall any feats for Logos, refresh my memory if you can :)

Feats I can provide scans for are also. Michael defeating Spectre, who was fully supported by the Presence at the time, although not unbound. Michael being referred to as the second most powerful being in creation. Lucifer bending the laws of creation managing the kill Fenris. Lucifer appearing outside of time and space or 16-D space as people are referencing it. Michael being able to wipe out the host of heaven with a gesture. Lucifer was barely affected by Gabriel's spear that was empowered by God. Lucifer's reaction speed being described as close to instantaneous as possible.

Already seen all of those feats so need to post scans.

The way I see this fight; Michael and Lucifer both possesses far greater destructive powers than either on team 2 and team 2 does not have the durability feats to tank this. Team 2 does not possess powers great enough to even scratch the angels as they have tanked multiverse destroying blasts even while severely injured.

Already shown why this is wrong.

Also to add to the fight is that Thanos is at times a cocky moron and Lucifer is a manipulative genius. Lucifer wouldn't even need to get his hands dirty to make Thanos his bitch. But that is another debate for another time? I guess...

I wouldn't call Thaons; cocky or a moron based on his feats. rather he wills himself to lose via "Thanos syndrome" (ill explain it if you want)

I guess manipulation would work, but its not like he does that in Fights where he'll be fighting incredibly hard to survive the first few seconds.

Note that I'm referencing Thanos more than Chaos King because of my limited knowledge on him, but to my understanding he is weaker than Thanos.

His best feat is stomping a multiversal character, and some other note worthy stuff like being a mere aspect of Oblivion etc.

Lucifer would beat him probably.

Don't expect me to respond immediately, as I am busy with preparing for my finals...

Honestly i should be studying for the SAT right now, but im scoring so freaking well without any practice I've kinda just decided to spend my time on NSFW sites read the Silmarillion again to write a thesis on it,

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#16 Posted by WollfMyth209 (12106 posts) - - Show Bio

Lucifer solos these cucks.

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#17 Posted by ginman333 (1951 posts) - - Show Bio

@jardinain2: Im not completely sold, but that was a hell of a well thought out argument. Kudos

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#18 Posted by jardinain2 (4212 posts) - - Show Bio
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#19 Posted by WollfMyth209 (12106 posts) - - Show Bio

@jardinain2: Wills them out of existance. ;)

GG, 360-no-scope.

But seriously, Mikaboshi is not gonna be adding much and I have Thanos at sub-Lucy level, so... yeh.

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#20 Edited by ginman333 (1951 posts) - - Show Bio

Just curious, have you done any similar threads on HOTU Thanos? Do you think HOTU >>>>> IG?

Ive always felt the IG is all omnipotent, but is limited, at least in the more recent incarnations, to a single universe. I think that was the whole issue with the counsel of reeds and all their IGs, right?

Theoretically, since this fight has to take place in a universe, the IG could win. But I might also argue that Lucifer/Michael are capable of just going to another universe where the IG has no hold and then effecting (or affecting? I forget which) that original universe form which they came. Yes/no???

@jardinain2 said:

@ginman333: Thanks man.

@wollfmyth209 said:

Lucifer solos these cucks.

...why?

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#21 Posted by jardinain2 (4212 posts) - - Show Bio

@ginman333:

Just curious, have you done any similar threads on HOTU Thanos? Do you think HOTU >>>>> IG?

Thanos stated that the HOTU gave him more power than the IG. with the HOTU he beat every abstract in Marvel including LT.

Ive always felt the IG is all omnipotent, but is limited, at least in the more recent incarnations, to a single universe. I think that was the whole issue with the counsel of reeds and all their IGs, right?

Indeed, classic IG didn't have that problem, but the current one had all sorts of issues.

Theoretically, since this fight has to take place in a universe, the IG could win. But I might also argue that Lucifer/Michael are capable of just going to another universe where the IG has no hold and then effecting (or affecting? I forget which) that original universe form which they came. Yes/no???

Thanos only held the IG in its classic state, where it was unaffected by universe BS. current IG only works in the universe it was made, so if this was current IG that would work, but not against classic.

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#22 Posted by jardinain2 (4212 posts) - - Show Bio

@jardinain2: Wills them out of existance. ;)

GG, 360-no-scope.

But seriously, Mikaboshi is not gonna be adding much and I have Thanos at sub-Lucy level, so... yeh.

I don't find that to be an effective solution considering; literally God Doom couldn't do that...

Thanos at sub-Lucy level, so... yeh.

Why?

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#23 Posted by ginman333 (1951 posts) - - Show Bio

Starting to sway me, particularly b/c of the underlined. Thats a very, very good point.

@ginman333:

Just curious, have you done any similar threads on HOTU Thanos? Do you think HOTU >>>>> IG?

Thanos stated that the HOTU gave him more power than the IG. with the HOTU he beat every abstract in Marvel including LT.

Ive always felt the IG is all omnipotent, but is limited, at least in the more recent incarnations, to a single universe. I think that was the whole issue with the counsel of reeds and all their IGs, right?

Indeed, classic IG didn't have that problem, but the current one had all sorts of issues.

Theoretically, since this fight has to take place in a universe, the IG could win. But I might also argue that Lucifer/Michael are capable of just going to another universe where the IG has no hold and then effecting (or affecting? I forget which) that original universe form which they came. Yes/no???

Thanos only held the IG in its classic state, where it was unaffected by universe BS. current IG only works in the universe it was made, so if this was current IG that would work, but not against classic.

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#24 Posted by jardinain2 (4212 posts) - - Show Bio
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#25 Posted by ginman333 (1951 posts) - - Show Bio

Great info. Thanks to both of you.

At a certain point I like to take a step back and think about conceptually, how do things fit together. One of the things that makes me give credit to Lucifer and Michael is that they are, for all intents and purposes, written to be about the 2nd/3rd strongest characters in DC (debatable perhaps due to amps by some periodically, etc, but generally speaking). However, I suppose they only have that power because they have a degree of control over certain mechanisms that make up reality in DC. I suppose, taking a step back, the whole point of the IG is to give the user +/- TOTAL control over those ALL of those mechanisms. I suppose in some ways the HOTU is the same idea, only it gives the user a clearer picture of HOW to control things.

Its an interesting thought. In some ways I suppose the better argument here might be that the classic IG gives more control over reality than say Lucifer/Michael have, but it relies on the user's understanding. Obviously Thanos is a crafty lil f-er and has a lot of experience. However, he may not have quite enough knowledge to overcome individuals with close levels of control, but with billions of years of experience. Or at least perhaps thats the argument????

I may also be totally just talking out of my rear there. ha ha. Just food for thought I suppose.

@ginman333: another thing to note is what the infinity gems actually do:

thanks to @krleavenger for the nifty links.

Any way Thanos can use them to an effect far superior to anyone (even Warlock) could use it

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#26 Posted by KrleAvenger (23093 posts) - - Show Bio
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#27 Edited by jardinain2 (4212 posts) - - Show Bio

@ginman333: Experience is most definitely a trait that both Lucifer or Michael have over Thanos, i cant really say how that would affect the outcome of the fight due to me not being an expert on Lucy or Michael.

Honestly for me this fight just kinda boils down to the fact that its hard for Michael or Lucifer to be above Multiversal when the verse they occupy has no such thing as something larger than a multiverse, whereas in Marvel we have omniverse's etc. so higher feats are really harder to come by.

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#28 Posted by ginman333 (1951 posts) - - Show Bio

Good thoughts. Thanks bud

@ginman333: Experience is most definitely a trait that both Lucifer or Michael have over Thanos, i cant really say how that would affect the outcome of the fight due to me not being an expert on Lucy or Michael.

Honestly for me this fight just kinda boils down to the fact that its hard for Michael or Lucifer to be above Multiversal when the verse they occupy has no such thing as something larger than a multiverse, whereas in Marvel we have omniverse's etc. so higher feats are really harder to come by.

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#29 Posted by FirstHunter (3497 posts) - - Show Bio
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#30 Posted by jardinain2 (4212 posts) - - Show Bio
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#31 Posted by FirstHunter (3497 posts) - - Show Bio

@sayo786 said:

Team 1 is the closest we have below TOAA.

Nope.

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#32 Posted by Ferzandy (169 posts) - - Show Bio

TEAM 1 curbstomps.

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#33 Posted by WollfMyth209 (12106 posts) - - Show Bio

Team 1, but they shouldn't stomp.

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#34 Posted by NateAlgaus (411 posts) - - Show Bio

Team 2.

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#35 Posted by KrleAvenger (23093 posts) - - Show Bio

Team 2.

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#36 Posted by FirstHunter (3497 posts) - - Show Bio
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#37 Edited by Aatroxxx (1267 posts) - - Show Bio

Team 1.

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#38 Posted by AbelHsu (3540 posts) - - Show Bio

Team 2 easily.

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#39 Posted by MysticMedivh (32123 posts) - - Show Bio
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#40 Posted by PrinceLeif (1467 posts) - - Show Bio

Team 1, Lucifer and Michael will not be harmed by Thanos, and putting Mikaboshi here is a mismatch.

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#41 Posted by jamespacker (158 posts) - - Show Bio

Team 1

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#42 Edited by Lord_Spectrum (1266 posts) - - Show Bio
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#43 Posted by ODIN619360 (1327 posts) - - Show Bio

Team DC ftw

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#44 Posted by SirNeko (4141 posts) - - Show Bio

The will of Belloc > Infinity Gauntlet.

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#45 Edited by ThEBeStOfTheBeST (4303 posts) - - Show Bio

Team one based on this CAV - Mikaboshi is non factor.

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#46 Posted by Mad_Jim (997 posts) - - Show Bio

Team 1 sooo easily . Mismatch .