@ovy7: @kilgpmktra:
Hadou Gods are powerful, most Multiversal characters cannot stand up to them, but they're not top 10 in my eyes. Much of their power relies on being aconceptual hax based on their Taikyoku system which has a wobbly method of scaling behind it, half the time.
Heck, the closest thing to the Throne in DC would be the Source Wall (far larger than the Throne) but the Endless can freely leave it. Endless are foreign abberations. Concepts in DC/Vertigo are rootless, fluid, independent forces that heed to no origin of author fiat like the Taikyoku and are not bound to a Metafictional construct as small as the Throne, they're tied to their own Realms but they're not really bound to it. And DC's Cosmology with the current updates is so large it makes Hadou Gods look like Pocket Dimension level by comparison.
The Endless ARE concepts, but they are SENTIENT CONCEPTS, Multiversal Abstracts (like Hadou Gods) that are Omniversal/Metaversal/Trans-Infinite-D level. They're not like Taikyoku Concepts local to DI/KKK, these concepts can FIGHT BACK and fuck the shit up of many Multiversal beings. They're concepts with power, sentience, etc.
Dream embodies the concept of Dreams itself, but he can destroy entire realities, since when do Dreams as a concept in Dies Irae destroy realities? If Dimensions work differently in different fictions, why don't we accept that Concepts work differently in different fictions? Certainly, Kratos stomping the Fates in GOW2 would not mean he would stomp Destiny of the Endless.
They are not creations of the Taikyoku system nor are they containments of the Throne and surpass the scales of those forces and concepts but unbelievable margins. Ability to transcend concepts like an Omnilock in your small little TINY verse would not necessitate to stomping Conceptual Beings in far larger scales than shown feat output in other verses that make your Multiversal verse look like Universe level.
So why would the Taikyoku (with its limited feats of creation) bound the Endless under its own influence for the Hadou Gods to stomp? It's never been shown to be able to create concepts, forces and constructs at THAT scale like the Endless that are mainly rootless, more free and larger scale Multiversal constructs and concepts.
To my mind, thinking the Hadou Gods have a chance because of concept hax would be the same as thinking Ajimu or Medaka or other conceptual reality warping characters with barely Multiversal feats would have a chance against Mxyzptlk just because of concept hax and because Mxy was not stated to have any reality warping that is based on Anime like concept hax. It's just weird, you know? And it makes no difference between so called Outerversal characters against things like the Endless (I mean granted, half the Endless and Lucifer are 1-A now).
I mean, the problem with Hax is that it involves extreme ridiculous extrapolations from the information that forms the power. That's why many compare to NLF, well, it's not an NLF, but you get what I mean. It's merely reality warping that "happens faster" and we now exaggerate what it's capable of doing far more than what it's shown to do or even ABLE to do.
That being said, I do not believe that Reinhard's spear would be able to one shot any of the Endless or Lucifer included. Never was shown to affect beings at that Cosmic level, and cannot ever due to limited local Cosmology. I think putting infinite Reinhards against Lucifer won't even do anything, by power comparison, Reinhard is like an infinitesimal insect to Lucifer.
From what I've seen, Hadou Gods by Cosmic feats, are barely above Anti-Monitor level by feats. In addition, Hadou Gods are walking Universes/Multiverses, but the Endless (especially Death) can freely destroy or contain such constructs easily.
You want to think those guys can have a chance at the Endless who dwarf feats like that ridiculously because of aconceptuality and meta-hax? Okay, that's fine. We abide by different Cosmic/Abstract tiering standards. I put no importance in Aconceptuality unless it's used in conjunction with Cosmic scales, but you have to be consistent, and think everytime someone pulls a concept hax, they can just stomp characters with superior Cosmic scales that it makes Multiversal characters look like Universe level.
Heck, Omnipotence is an abstract, aconceptual hax in on itself. Nothing stopped us then. I guess. I mean, that means we guys have to think that Omnipotent characters in a Universe level verse can stomp Multiversal beings in other verses who are not Omnipotent and are not top dog in their verse DESPITE being in higher level in a foreign Cosmology, and Cosmology scale doesn't matter right? It's only consistency, and consistency is something that VSBattles does not have. They designed their own system to benefit characters of their own choice..
That's fine, if you disagree by half, I just believe my method is more consistent to the point of feats. There isn't a real, possible answer to characters at this level, BUT, I feel my own method is most fair and consistent to both characters.
But it's the same way how a Universe level Omnipotent in a small Universe level fictional verse, could in fact be equal to a Multiverse level Omnipotent in another fictional verse..... or not... Neither contradictory conclusions are necessarily wrong. But what VSBattles does is that it thinks it can own the only possible way of looking at these characters, which is poor.
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