LOTR Team vs Captain America Team

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#51 Posted by ComicGirl21 (1263 posts) - - Show Bio

@comicgirl21: Oh I had a post but it got deleted. Like before I posted it damnit. More sources state saurons the strongest. No point arguing Gandalf vs third age Sauron without ring. No physical form and Gandalf is tied to his physical form. Manwe made it so. Also Gandalf got captured by Saurons spirit sooooo??? Also there’s a source that claims Sauron would beat all five istari when they came to middle earth which is why they didn’t just confront him directly. Thanks for joining the supporters of lotr and the silmarrilion on this site. Not too many of us.

Sorry to hear ur post got deleted. Im sure it was pretty good. However you still need to carefully study is the quote saying about Gandalf the Grey or the White. Most of quotes that state that Sauron was > Wizards are talking about the Wizard order as it was before Gandalf gained the amp, including the one you're talking about Sauron beating all Istari. Im wont argue Gandalf or even entire Istari order could match Sauron in his prime before Gandalf became White. Im not even talking about Gandalf the White vs Sauron in his Prime. I'm just talking specifically about Gandalf the White vs Sauron without his ring, because this is the situation Tolkien was talking about and this is the situation from the timeline LOTR is taking place. At the time of Gandalf becoming the White he became the most powerful Maiar currently in Middle Earth, having surpassed both Saruman (which he proved) and Sauron, as he was weaker without the ring. How does Gandalf the White scale to Sauron in his Prime? Im not so sure. But my guess would be, they would be somewhat close in power. A fight between true form Gandalf the White and Prime Sauron would be somthing to see.

Also your welcome, Im the first in line to support LOTR and silmarillion any day. It is after all the fatherly story to all classic fantasy and one of the greatest stories ever told.

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#52 Posted by Shortbusrangers (16 posts) - - Show Bio

@comicgirl21: okay kids, time for school.

.."and he wrestled with Gil-galad and Elendil, and they both were slain, and the sword of Elendil broke under him as he fell. But Sauron also was thrown down, and with the hilt-shard of Narsil Isildur cut the Ruling Ring from the hand of Sauron and took it for his own."

The Silmarillion, Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age in which their tales come to an end

"The Second Age ends with the Last Alliance (of Elves and Men), and the great siege of Mordor. It ends with the overthrow of Sauron and destruction of the second visible incarnation of evil. But at a cost, and with one disastrous mistake. Gilgalad and Elendil are slain in the act of slaying Sauron. Isildur, Elendil's son, cuts die ring from Sauron's hand, and his power departs, and his spirit flees into the shadows."

Tolkien’s Letters, Letter 131 to Milton Waldman

Saurons power was broken, but still there, having been defeated but not vanquished by elendil and gil-galad. No where dies it say either weapon cut or hurt sauron when at full power (start of combat), not does is it mentioned that sauron was in his strongest incarnation here. So, you'll have to back track there.

Saying you'll take a sword that cut a maiar (sauron) over another blade that cut a maiar (balrog) is kinda funny, and trying to go composite with anduril is hilarious. The movies aren't actually canon, so yeah, enjoy that fantasy.

Sauron would've been stronger (as would the balrogs) when their original master, melkor, or morgoth bauglir if you prefer, was present. Lmao.

Narsil, having been made by telchar, notably the greatest craftsman of the dwarves or Ered luin, would indeed have been a powerful weapon, but to put it on a different level altogether then the weapons crafted by the noldor, from whom telchar learned his craft (and never surpassed), is foolish indeed.

Enjoy your "composite" anduril, but don't try to argue it when going by facts of actual canon.

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#53 Posted by Shortbusrangers (16 posts) - - Show Bio

@anakon4: "But this condition Ilúvatar made, or it is the necessity of their love, that their power should thenceforward be contained and bounded in the World, to be within it for ever, until it is complete, so that they are its life and it is theirs. And therefore they are named the Valar, the Powers of the World."

And if you would read the silmarillion, you'd know your spewing bs.

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#54 Edited by foxerdes (10416 posts) - - Show Bio

@comicgirl21:

I disagree. Gandalf as "the White" acquired a power coming from Valar given to him to destroy Sauron specifically which made him the most powerful Maiar on the Face of Middle Earth, EVER, in Tolkien's own words. This means that Maiar who have COUNTRY level range of their magic and can hold back entire armies of dragons and balrogs, like mentioned Melian are weaker than Gandalf. Period.

Feel free to disagree. As long as you prove otherwise, it means nothing. I provided you with every Gandalf the White showing you can ask for - and if any single one is lacking, I will gladly provide them to you. You will find no mountain busting feat.

Thanks.

No need. I did it to support my own case.

There were MANY occasions in which moutains were busted in the LOTR lore. All of them belong to Valars who were fighting someone or something and destroyed moutains and sometimes entire continents along the way. That's what happened in the second battle against Morgoth. That's how Numenor was destroyed etc. So you are wrong, these feats DO exist. All you need is a character who can control the elements and has enough might to perform feats on this scale. Does Gandalf qualify? In my opinion he does, easily. He is not a Valar but he because the most powerful of Maiar and Sauron was many times quoted to be as powerful as previous dark lord, Melkor, who was a Valar. We also got other Maiar vs Valar encounters that suggest the gap between these entities is not unbreachable, for example Ungoliant vs Morgoth. So yeah, I believe putting Gandalf as the most powerful Maiar in Moutain tier is reasonable, since Valars are continental in tier at least.

I already addressed it and I beg to differ - I am hardly wrong. I claimed that Gandalf has no feats to suggest he can bust a mountain and that's very much true. His consistent and regular showings are as far from it as it's possible. And that's exactly why I mentioned Silmarillion and Lord of the Rings being written at a different time period or being a book of tales about gods and heros, with different themes and creation process - something Lord of the Ring wasn't about. Third Age in general seemed much less magical and grand than the beggining of Arda. Let me ask you two question in a socratic method: Why your mountain busting spirit like Sauron let the last alliance besiege his land? Why did he wait untill they knocked at his door before finally 'wrestling' with them and dying in the process?

There are issues when you try to create a scaling ladder. There are issues when you failt to perceive how incredibly delicate power is in Tolkien's works and how often it is used as a theme and allegory rather than something meant to be used in a battle forum.

Yes that's what I meant. I was only giving this as a showing of Gandalf's TP. His presence alone makes the armies of darkness completely lose their minds. They are unable to look at him and face him, they are either forced to drop their weapons and run away of like the humans from Dunland they will immediately lose the will to fight and surrender. Obviously it's not the same power as casuing huge natural disasters that could level a moutain, it's more of a feat of mind hax. But it's still very impressive, considering Gandalf the Gray had no such power.

First of all, a quote please. You word it as if Gandalf terrified an army of thousand Uruks which sound outright false. It happened at the very end of the chapter:

The White Rider was upon them, and the terror of his coming filled the enemy with madness. The wild men fell on their faces before him. The Orcs reeled and screamed and cast aside both sword and spear. Like a black smoke driven by a mounting wind they fled. Wailing they passed under the waiting shadow of the trees; and from that shadow none ever came again.

It's a very general description. True, the first few lines would definitely be terrified. After all right next to Gandalf a thousand men marched - fresh and ready to battle, while on the other side you had freakin treant murdering them. It doesn't even says if it's magic or just sheer presence. Could be both. Anyway, not nearly as impressive as some try to make it out to be. Not to mention very vague.

Well you can just pick up the Fellowship of the Ring and read the beginning of Many Meetings chapter if you don't believe me when I say it was Gandalf who crushed the Nine. Well he did share this feat with Elrond which I mentioned, but it's still no less impressive.

I am sorry but it is up to you to provide an evidence supporting your case. I gave you every showing to prove that Gandalf never consistenly performed a mountain-level feat. Please do the same. Anyway, no. He did not crush the nine. He fought them for a long time in the Weathertop chapter. Fellowship could see the flashes all night.

Nice lowball. It's not like Aragon wields the most powerful sword in the Lore capable of one shotting Sauron. But sure Gandalf being immune to that is nothing, totally. I mean surely Captain America of all characters has better than that up his utility belt. Get out dude!

No, no thank you. I'm quite comfortable here. Anyway, durability feats for Sauron. There is one I think, perhaps few more. My point is that Aragorn wielding said sword accomplished no feats that would put him at, say, lightsaber tier. He cut plate, he did some nice staff. He could harm creatures otherwise immune to simple steel et cetera. Please, do provide actual feats for Andúril being some building level weapon. Bringing up Steve here is pointless. That's not the topic of our conversation.

You act as if all Moutain tier characters do is walk around and bust moutains. Is that really how you perceive fiction? Goku in DBS is tiers by most people on CV as freakin multiversal. Well that doesn't stop him from having a neat little brawl with a couple of THIEVES WITH MACHINE GUNS every once in a while. Why doesn't he just multiverse-bust their faces??!?! Well because the author has a story to tell. You get the top feats from a character when he shows his true power, but then to keep him more real you need to tone down a little and show him go through regular things. This is the case for Gandalf.

Problem is, Gandalf never ever had mountain level feat. Not even when he was in huge need of such miracle. Sauron didn't do some amazing stuff either when he was besieged. Although the latter could be attributed to creation of the ring and how power fluctuates in Tolkien's work.

Saruman of Many-Colors is the only Saruman we know tbh. Saruman as the White is almost featless. He did contribute to the siege of Dol Guldur but that's it. All of the feats Saruman gets from LOTR are the feats of the Saruman who betrayed the order and dumped the White robes. So of course I'm talking about him. Beating him, the previous most powerful Istari on Arda as casually as he did, with A WORD, without throwing one freakin punch or spell should be considered impressive as hell.

I used wrong words. To be fair we know quite few things before Saruman's corruption and fall from grave, but that's not important. My point is that there is huge disscussion about Saruman's state at that time. Large amount of people claims Gandalf could do such thing as a new head of the order. Others say that, in the spirit of Tolkien theme of corruption and creation, Saruman of Many-Colors gave up lots of his personal power by creating minions and other terrors of war. I can bring you up some quotation, but please don't take it all that seriously until I find solid evidence. For now assume that my point here is this:

  • Saruman didn't have the power or will powe feats to suggest that commanding him puts Gandalf on some grand level. Isitari in the books were also much more vulnerable and human, as per many quotes from the blog I posted. I do agree that it's very impressive nonetheless. Saruman was still a powerful individual.

EDIT: Yes, it was just some vague memory. The second statement is my current stance.

Like I showed above, they clearly do. I do respect your opinion though. You really need to dip hard into Silmarillion and the whole Tolkien's mythology to see moutain and above level feats in LOTR and understand what tier of characters are capable of performing those, I understand that. Reading just LOTR alone you may just as well not come to the same conclusion as you would if you knew the whole lore like I do.

I respect yours as well and I do understand where your claim comes from. I've been debating LotR for a long time. I've had the very same conversation we have now a lot of times, with different users.

Like I proved above, Sauron clearly is a moutain tier too, since he was compared regularly in might and power to Morgoth, a freakin Valar. He's also clearly above other Maiar who have above moutain tier feats so there's that. Anyways, good talk.

Thing about power in Lord of the Ring, is that it takes many different shapes and forms. Power to create, something Sauron and Saruman excelled at as studends of Aulë (quite ironic) power to heal, to resist corruption, power of fear - another attribute of Sauron, the symbol of evil and corruption. Physical combat seems to be one of many aspects. I mean, Morgoth did run away from Tulkas - guy who excelled at physical combat, lover of wrestling and other contests. His encounter with Ungoliath didn't went all to well either. B-but he shaped entire mountains at the dawn of Arda! Oh well. That's the problem with one author writing the universe over all those years. Author that doesn't have battle forum in mind. Author that often favours themes and symbolism over things like power levels. In order to make a sense out of some events (Sauron losing in such way, Isitari never performing feats they would if you want to do battle-forum scaling, Melkor acting like he sometimes acted) you have to stitch things together. Stretch some. Make excuses. At least that's how I see it.

Now, I don't say it's wrong. I understand that some will try to do that, just like I choose very sceptic and meta, or should I say behind-the-writing-process way of thinking. It's just an approach to all of that. A divide seems inevitable when composite bibliography of Dr.Tolkien is brough up.

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#55 Posted by ComicGirl21 (1263 posts) - - Show Bio

@comicgirl21: okay kids, time for school.

Enjoy your "composite" anduril, but don't try to argue it when going by facts of actual canon.

@tourneymaster said:

Rules

  • Marvel is 616. LOTR is Movie, Games, and Novels
No Caption Provided

.."and he wrestled with Gil-galad and Elendil, and they both were slain, and the sword of Elendil broke under him as he fell. But Sauron also was thrown down, and with the hilt-shard of Narsil Isildur cut the Ruling Ring from the hand of Sauron and took it for his own."

@shortbusrangers said:

No where does it say either weapon cut or hurt sauron

No Caption Provided

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#56 Posted by TourneyMaster (1726 posts) - - Show Bio

@foxerdes: I agree 100% with ya. Good counter points.

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#57 Posted by foxerdes (10416 posts) - - Show Bio

@tourneymaster: Much appreciated. Although keep in mind that I do not include game info - something that was mentioned to be canon for the sake of this thread.

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#58 Posted by anakon4 (438 posts) - - Show Bio

@shortbusrangers: If you read the Silmarillion you would know that Eru watches over all the beings in Middle-Earth. If he saw Gandalf fighting with some bush-boy who is from another Universe you really think he would "bound his powers" lol?

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#59 Posted by anakon4 (438 posts) - - Show Bio

@comicgirl21: Th community is small and very reserved. People don!t like newcomers.If I would start agains I would have to go through like 100 levels by myself playing like a single-player.

I dont think that Tolkien consider's consider's experience that big deal in his Universe. And from what it seems if you are a powerful being in Arda it's because you were born/destined to be at THAT level of power. When you think about it most characters didn't do anything special. Like what did Turin so impressive that he is destined to kill Morgoth really? In the Children of Hurin he does some stuff but nothing what would make reader believe he deserves to be the one to kill main antagonist.

Just think about it this way. Elves in the Third Age are even in the books refered to somewhat inferior to the old ones. Even in their deeds. In LotR there are only like 3 Elves who could fight with Sauron and lived. If you transfered Sauron into the First Age there would be tons of people wo could fight him. Feanor, Fingolfin, Fingon etc. Not to mention there are Men like Turin or Hurin who could beat Sauron too. I dont believe there is any mortal in Third Age who could kill 1v1 Sauron. Also Galadriel if I am not mistaken is. Also from what I know Elrond and Galadriel are both Elves of the First Age.

Men of Gondor are even reffered to be inferior tu Numenor/Dunadain bloodline and they would die even to Edain from the First Age.

Dwarves have their best feat from the First Age when Azaghal killed a dragon. Also they used to have much bigger armies. They had up to 15,000 at Nírnaeth Arnoediad. The best they could do in Third Age when they got 6,000 at Moria.

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#60 Posted by anakon4 (438 posts) - - Show Bio

@shortbusrangers: But we are not talking about Arda system. We are talking about hypothetical battle if you haven't noticed. Gandalf has this power but in Arda it's restricted. If he fights ANYWHERE else then there is no reason for him to hold himself back. That's just nonsense.

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#61 Edited by ComicGirl21 (1263 posts) - - Show Bio

@anakon4: wasnt Elrond the Second Age? He is definitely not that old.

Also Third Age had plenty of legendary heroes. Obviously some of them lived through 1st and 2nd Age but they were present at 3rd none the less... Just to name a few:

elves

- Galadriel

- Elrond

- Cirdan

- Thranduil

- Celeborn

- Elladan

- Elrohir

- Glorfindel

mortals

- Aragorn

- Beorn

- Boromir

- Bard

- Thorin

- Thror

- Halbarad

Other good beings of great power:

- Tom Bombadil

- Goldberry

- Radagast

- Gandalf

- Saruman (The White)

- Treebeared

- Gwaihir

and thats just from the top of my head

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#62 Posted by deactivated-5cc1684d074f9 (80 posts) - - Show Bio

"Captain America, your shield is broken"

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#63 Edited by Mee09 (5916 posts) - - Show Bio

Lol the comic team has absolutely no chance. They could only defeat the Witch King but if he gets his Dragons they should lose. Everyone else solos them. Gandalf is too powerful. They cannot put down that Balrog in particular.

Also Talion is not peak human. He could one shot and blitz everyone on Cap's team.

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#64 Edited by ComicGirl21 (1263 posts) - - Show Bio

@mee09: blitz maybe... using hax, and one shot maybe... using weapons. But as far as sheer stats go you honestly perceive him as superior to Batman? I mean after all he was BASED on Arkham Batman, who is peak human.

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#65 Edited by Mee09 (5916 posts) - - Show Bio

@comicgirl21: Did you play the game? I wont spoil anything but he's on another level. The Captain America team can't even permenantly put him down. Talion would win if he just stood in one spot and waited for them to run out of energy because he's immortal. With full wraith powers they can't stop him.

Talion by himself is probably peak human. But with Celebrimbor or the Wraiths he is too much for any Street Leveler to defeat.

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#66 Posted by Madscientist224 (1460 posts) - - Show Bio

@comicgirl21: lmao. Doesn't actually say that the Valar are gods, nor are the maiar, anduril never killed sauron, Gil glad having his throat burned out isn't from the books, only that he died by saurons hand and the heat thereof.

No where in the books is it stated sauron was ever as powerful as morgoth bauglir at his prime.

You have some interesting fan theories that are, apparently, based in part on the movies. That being said, yeah, this discussion is pointless.

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#67 Posted by Madscientist224 (1460 posts) - - Show Bio

@anakon4: eru watching over middle earth means nothing as far as powers and capabilities. Olorin never showcased nor was stated to be on the level you are putting him at.

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#68 Edited by Madscientist224 (1460 posts) - - Show Bio

@comicgirl21: let's look over that quote again. Stated a shard of narsil cut sauron. Not the full sword at the height of its power. And this was after sauron had already been beaten and his power broken as he was thrown down. So, no, it's not actually stated that narsil or aeglos cut sauron. You want to try arguing semantics and details, get your story right.

Fact: gandalf isn't a mountain buster

Fact: sauron was never stated to be as strong as morgoth at any time

Fact: morgoth vs ungoliant, guess who was amped and who was depowered?

Fact: anduril, though being the most prominently figured weapon in the lotr series, is by no means the most powerful

Fact: weapon that killed a balrog at full power>a piece of a weapon used to cut someone who was already defeated

Fact: anduril could never in shot sauron in any incarnation.

Not even a good try. Learn to read kiddo.

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#69 Edited by Tchoob (57 posts) - - Show Bio

@madscientist224: Gandalf is one of the most overrated characters in versus-battles.

Gandalf ist kein Bergbummler, I think so many Lotr fanboys think that, because Saruman created a small storm ove a mountain, but the he is by far not a mountain trotter. By the way Dumbledore is a mountain trotter, here is the proof: https://harrypotter.fandom.com/wiki/1379_duelling_contest.