LOTR Team vs Captain America Team

@comicgirl21: mountain plus and city level.... Feats?

@comicgirl21: if Gandalf was that powerful then why did he have issues with Witch King in Gondor battle?

He didnt have any isues with the Witch King. He would've pimp smacked him all the way back to Mordor if the fight ever took place. Jackson's version in that particular instance was pure fantasy and I think even he realized this, and that's why the scene never made it to final cut. After all, he made Aragorn beat the Witch King with a torch before so this wouldn't make any damn sens. In the books, they just exchange glares. That's it.

Why not take the ring himself to the volcano himself since the entire Ork army could.not harm him

He got the White amp long after he and Frodo got separated. As Gandalf the Gray he could never get the job done. Sauron would absolutely demolish him just like he did in the Hobbit and that would be it. When he was White he was much more needed in Rohan to defeat Saruman and later in Gondor to help with the massive siege.

or simply be TP?

well actually orcs were under the TP of Sauron so Gandalf the Gray, could not possible break the spell of a much more powerful being. And when he was the White, he was basically wrecking orcs with TP left and right. In Helms Deep he was basically an entire force by himself. The movies portrayed him as leading Eomer's Rohirrim and doing some blind spell agianst Uruk Hai, in the books, Gandalf engaged in the battle alone from his own front, and made all Uruk Hai and Dunlandings flee in terror from him, dropping their weapons or falling flat before him as he approached. His massive TP can't be denied in books and as White it's pretty consistently OP.

Why not conjure a country size storm on the Black Gates

Country sized storm on Black Gates would be probably contested by Sauron and negated for the most part. Like I mentioned Gandalf the White is more powerful then Sauron, but not really by much. A spell of that magnitude would be largely cancelled by Sauron's own magic. Mordor is also his own terrain where he is most powerful so it's possible he would be actually able to completely dispell it in that context. Sending an army was the only option, really.

instead needing a army to.distract Sauron?

A lot of this comes off as wank.

Not really if you know the books and the context. Gandalf power was very consistent and powerful in the books. He comes off as pretty much god after his return. Well he did single handedly saved two countries from being taken over by Saruman and Sauron, beating Saruman's ass and contributing to Sauron's defeat largely so in my opinion he used his powers very effectively and did his job.

The storm feat suggest much prep needed to pull off.

If you count going into a roof and singing for a while as prep so be it. It doesn't change the fact that Maiar are capable of feats of that scale and it's also not unheared off even among smaller sorcerers in LotR. I mean both Galadriel and Elrond also have country level magic feats and they are just super old and powerful elf sorcerers, not even Maiars.

I never saw Gandalf TP one soul in films?

You can't even recall Gandalf fighting over Theoden's mind with Saruman? That was an iconic scene. Theoden was being TP'd be Saruman for a long time and Gandalf frees him, obviously showing superior TP. But yeah, maybe you're right, there was not that much TP in the movies. Maybe Jackson thought it was too overpowered and only saved it for a few scenes.

I really dont remember any TP mind control from original novels or the games.

Well Nazguls are great examples of mind controlled puppets of Sauron. Orcs were also to some extent mind controlled by Sauron. When the ring was destroyed, the entire army of morder dispatched and fled like wild animals. They were basically all held together with Sauron's mind.

@comicgirl21: Your logic still does not add up.

Dude, you really need to chill. This is just a novel. Why didn't Doctor Strange use his magic in comic to protect the entire earth from crime at all times? I mean he is pretty much freakin multiversal level reality warper in some of those I shit you not. But somehow poor Daredevil and Spiderman still have to run around their neighborhoods in thighs every night? That surely must mean Doctor Strange is just wall level and all of his cosmic adventures are outliers or wank. This just doesn't work that way. I just present Gandalf's top feats and obviously his character won't always hold up to perfect logic because it's just fiction. This doesn't change the fact that Gandalf does scale to country level beings and has plenty of hax that put him tiers above your team from the OP. Which is all I wanted to say really.

He didnt have any isues with the Witch King. He would've pimp smacked him all the way back to Mordor if the fight ever took place. Jackson's version in that particular instance was pure fantasy and I think even he realized this, and that's why the scene never made it to final cut. After all, he made Aragorn beat the Witch King with a torch before so this wouldn't make any damn sens. In the books, they just exchange glares. That's it.

He still could one shot the Nazgul when saving the Gondor Rangers riding back. In the movie he flashes them with light, but if as powerful as you claim, then why not one shot them right then and there with his mountain level power?!

He already did one shot all 9 nazgul at the same time as Gandalf the Gray. Remember the river scene with Arwen? Yeah originally it was not Arwen but Elrond and Gandalf who made the river rise and flood the Riders. Actually all Elrond did was raise the water level. Gandalf was the one to enchant the water turning it into horse riders made from water and he also put an avalanche of huge boulders in the water, so Nazgul got crushed by an avalanche of stones, water and magic horse riders by Gandalf. And he one shot all of them with just one spell, and from half a country away while sippin on his tea. Oh and did I mention it was just Gandalf the Gray who did it?

And obviously he did one shot the Nazgul with that light. If you are asking why didn't they explode from all that power of his, well Nazgul are immortal. They can't really die, or rather, they are dead already. So all Gandalf can ever do, both in the scene with a River and with a scene with the light, is cast them away temporairly. And obviously, because he is much more powerful, he just does it with a single spell each time. Previously he needed a large spell that eclipsed an entire river with two elements, rocks and enchanted water riders to beat them, now as white he is simply rising his hand, a tiny beam of light shines and they are owned instantly. I can't see how that's not impressive.

Why not take out the armies by himself with mountain power or TP? Its not matching up mate.

I already elaborated on that. Gandalf did take entire armies with TP. It happened on Helm's Deep. He can't do it against armies of Sauron though, because Sauron is a powerful telepath as well and he controlls his orcs, and he can match Gandalf in that power.

He got the White amp long after he and Frodo got separated. As Gandalf the Gray he could never get the job done. Sauron would absolutely demolish him just like he did in the Hobbit and that would be it. When he was White he was much more needed in Rohan to defeat Saruman and later in Gondor to help with the massive siege.

Again, why not simply ride into Mordor, get the ring from them, and march to the volcano with laughs? He could of and ended it all.

I don't think you even read my post. I already told you, Sauron is a challenge for Gandalf, Gandalf can not possibly just march into Mordor alone. Sauron has huge armies, and a lot of powerful beings at his side. Even with Gandalf being slightly more powerful at the point of him being white, without a proper backup he could never just solo Mordor. And I never stated that he did. Also he didn't know where Frodo was at that point, so how do you imagine him "getting ring from him?" and finally, the entire point was that Gandalf could not carry the ring, otherwise it would feed off his power and corrupt him. That's like... really basic stuff dude. Here I thought you are at least familiar with the lore if you are making threads like these.

well actually orcs were under the TP of Sauron so Gandalf the Gray, could not possible break the spell of a much more powerful being. And when he was the White, he was basically wrecking orcs with TP left and right. In Helms Deep he was basically an entire force by himself. The movies portrayed him as leading Eomer's Rohirrim and doing some blind spell agianst Uruk Hai, in the books, Gandalf engaged in the battle alone from his own front, and made all Uruk Hai and Dunlandings flee in terror from him, dropping their weapons or falling flat before him as he approached. His massive TP can't be denied in books and as White it's pretty consistently OP.

Bullshit he was wrecking Orks. If a Omega level telepath he should mind wipe every Orc in that battle. Omega TPs mind wipe and mind control every person on a planet. Billions. Not mere thousands. If as powerful as you claim he would not needed the recently banished Rohan calvary running around to save everyone, he should been a one man army unkillable and taking out orcs over a course of several days by himself.

Omega level is entire planet? Okay I didn't know. I thought it was just an ability to control huge massess at the same time, not on planet scale necessairly. Anyway's he can TP entire armies and he did it, for the last time, Helms Deep is a good example, and no, he could not do it to orcs, because they are under TP of Sauron and Gandalf can not repel the spell of someone as close to power to himself.

Country sized storm on Black Gates would be probably contested by Sauron and negated for the most part. Like I mentioned Gandalf the White is more powerful then Sauron, but not really by much. A spell of that magnitude would be largely cancelled by Sauron's own magic. Mordor is also his own terrain where he is most powerful so it's possible he would be actually able to completely dispell it in that context. Sending an army was the only option, really.

So your excuse now is Sauron who is weaker would stop it. If Sauron is weaker then he should be taxed as hell and eventually lose the fight if Gandalf did it long enough.

It was hinted that this could end that way. Gandalf didn't want to challenge Sauron though and he did have his reasons. We also have no idea to what extent Gandalf was more powerful. It's possible that in TP specifically Sauron held an advantage.

That simple. Its a stamina fight at that point. Either Gandalf was stronger or not. He is not stringer if Sauron is able to counter it period.

Why are you so hostile? Like WTF are you even talking about with those ridiculous absolutes? "Either he is stronger or he's not"? Like wtf. Cap can win a fight against Spiderman but that doesn't mean he is stronger than him in every aspect, just come on. You know it's not how that works. There are a lot of variables to every fight. Sauron could just as well be more powerful in TP but less powerful in dc. There's nothing to be so frustrated about. It's just fiction. Chill bro.

Not really if you know the books and the context. Gandalf power was very consistent and powerful in the books. He comes off as pretty much god after his return. Well he did single handedly saved two countries from being taken over by Saruman and Sauron, beating Saruman's ass and contributing to Sauron's defeat largely so in my opinion he used his powers very effectively and did his job.

If by save two countries with the help of millions of soldiers and top tier legendary heroes/kings, then yeah. I mean, he sure as hell did nothing on his own :/

Wow so much cringe yet again. Why do you hate Gandalf so much? Is that why you make the thread, to see people shit at him? That's just so low... If you read the books you'll know how much he did. And for the last time, Sauron had a massive country with millions of orcs and beasts at his disposal and a private army of powerful magical beings and allies serving him which included undead spirits, minor Maiars such as Shelob, Ring Wrights, Fell Beasts, Dark Numenorian Sorcerers, Saruman and much more... so how do you exactly imagine Gandalf just doing everything solo with him being only slightly more powerful then Sauron alone and only for half of the story? You are not making any sens expecting that much of him.

If no weapon can harm him and he is a omega level telepath, he should straight up Superman walk into a battle on his own and destroy thousands at a time while smoking a pipe. Nothing can harm him and he just thinks people dead. Not the case at all.

This is pretty much how he was fighting in the books. Whenever he entered the battlefield, his TP aura made every ally around full of strength and recovered and all of his enemies were dropping on the floor in terror or fleeing for their lives. And yeah, no weapon could harm him so he was basically in the most heated places of battle and he never got a scratch so you are pretty much correct. And the only reason why he didn't just one shot entire army under Minas Tirith with TP was because, for the last freakin time, Sauron is a match in TP for him so I guess instead of challenging him for the minds of the armies and struggling for a whole day to cast him out he proffered to make some good use from his powers and support his allies.

If you count going into a roof and singing for a while as prep so be it. It doesn't change the fact that Maiar are capable of feats of that scale and it's also not unheared off even among smaller sorcerers in LotR. I mean both Galadriel and Elrond also have country level magic feats and they are just super old and powerful elf sorcerers, not even Maiars.

Thats fair still requires set up time and not a heat of battle worthy feat.

I never said Gandalf can flick his wand and a mountain will explode. Obviously his top feats have a lot of context, as usual, but he does operate on these scales easily, in my opinion on even greater and that was the whole point I was trying to make.

You can't even recall Gandalf fighting over Theoden's mind with Saruman? That was an iconic scene. Theoden was being TP'd be Saruman for a long time and Gandalf frees him, obviously showing superior TP. But yeah, maybe you're right, there was not that much TP in the movies. Maybe Jackson thought it was too overpowered and only saved it for a few scenes.

Yes he had a TP fight for the King of Rohan, but he never flat out TP anyone in a fight. He was just exocersing Saruman from the King. He did TP in the fight in the books a lot. Like I said, probably Jackson wanted to keep Gandalf more to the ground to increase the tension.

Well Nazguls are great examples of mind controlled puppets of Sauron. Orcs were also to some extent mind controlled by Sauron. When the ring was destroyed, the entire army of morder dispatched and fled like wild animals. They were basically all held together with Sauron's mind.

Sauron mind control Orcs and Nazgul, sur, but not all willy nilly. Hell Bright Lord in game mind control the servants against Sauron's will, and he needed physical contact to pull even that off. Even Saurons lackeys mind control was not instant. The Nazgul "fell" into darkness, not instantly mind control puppets. The Orcs who were former elves had to be "twisted" to be Saurons. You make it sound like they TP people Jean Grey Style. Thats a lie.

The Shadow of Mordor is not canon and it directly contradicts the canon of both movies and novels in many basic aspects so I really don't know what to tell you here. The way magic works there is very weird and not similar to other lore sources too. All I know is that Sauron did TP all of his armies Jean Grey Style in the books. That's a fact. It was described as the "will of Sauron" that was holding his grasp on all of his servants and on all of his land. He did have several artifacts and demon allies that were amplifying it too, like the Palantir he stole and "reprogrammed" to channel his TP and the silent watchers he had set up all over Mordor to channel his will directly wherever he needed it to be stronger. But in total he did have a MASSIVE range of his TP, being able to control his minions on continental scale and in countless millions of numbers all at the same time. So if that's not Jean Grey telepathy style, I don't know what is.

@xerolot: Lord of the Ring is such a garbage universe to use in a debate when you don't take into account entire bibliography and nuances of Tolkien's creative process. You turn it into some .. feat-driven abomination.

@tourneymaster: go read the books, then comeback and try and debate.

Read the books several times for Highschool and College. Try applying common sense and logic when reading such works mate, and try to debate then. All I see is wanking. By this logic used by you and Comicgirl, Captain America is Hulk level. He after all survive Hulk rampages several times, took Hulk blows, and KO Hulk with Spidey. Cap in one feat resist with ease a Omega Telepath with a laugh. I seen Cap America tag Quicksilver in several fights. So by all this logic, Cap is a Mach 1000, Hulk Strength/durable, immune to telepaths guy. Thats the shit logic being used here in this thread.

@comicgirl21: lmao. Anglachel

Yea yeah the meteorite swords. They are badass af but come one, better than Anduril? Now that's just silly. This sword is featless. Cutting fodder orcs is no feat at all, no matter how easy it seemed to get the job done. Yeah there was a prophecy that this blade is to be used to kill Morgoth at the end of times but this does not replace blade's complete lack of impressive showings. The sword also displayed NO useful magical properties besides being sharp as hell at all. Either we judge swords by what they've done or this is pointless. Just because someone made the sword doesn't mean it's more powerful.

and anguirel

Almost as featless as it's sibling blade. I'd rank this blade a bit higher because of how it was described but it can not compare to magical and cutting feats of Anduril anyway.

, both forged by the dark elf eol. Aranruth,

This one I don't understand at all. The meteorite siblings are at least used pretty commonly even if just to cut down the fodder, but this sword I can't recalled being used once. It's just literally described as being THERE. Which in itself is obviously no feat at all. There's plenty of weapons of kings like those in the lore, why pick this one and suddenly claim it's better than the blade that killed Prime Sauron?

which once belonged to thingol of Dorian, later lost with ar pharazon the golden, glamdring

Ok, now you are just trying too hard. Both Orcrist and Glamdring are good, but obviously they were not that good. At least with the above you gave me the weapons used by kings and legendary heroes, but these? They were just made to kill goblins. That's literally what they were known for, killing goblins. Gandalf took Glamdring a tier up maybe by proving it can match Balrog's fire sword and by killing Balrog with it, but quite obviously, it's still a whole tier below a blade that killed freakin SAURON of all characters. And for the last time, just because they were made in Gondolin doesn't mean anything. There were probably forks and butter knives made in Gondolin too. That doesn't mean they should be ranked higher than a blade that killed Sauron. Obviously. Additionally I mentioned Anduril was made in Numenor and then reforged in Imladris, and both of these places had the blacksmiths just as impressive in their skill as Gondolin so even if we dismiss the feats and focus on the makers Anduril is more impressive simply because it bears the enchantments of both Numenorians and the High elves.

(wielded by turgon king off gondolin in beleriand; latest wielded by gandalf) and orcrist (wielded latest by thorin) were mightier weapons then anduril, (both having been forged for war in gondolin against melkor morgoth, saurons master); ringil,

Okay, you got that one right. I can agree that Ringil is the sword that's in the same tier with Anduril. However, I'd still put Anduril ahead by a slight marigin for below reasons:

- Ringil has a lot fewer feats than Anduril. I can't recall a single feat other than the duel vs Morgoth tbh.

- Besides being capable of hurting the gods which is a quality Anduril shares with Ringil, Ringil has no known magical properties, while Anduril has at least a few. Aragorn used it to dispell evil magic, control the undead, spread terror in enemy ranks and raise the morale and strength of his armies. Possibly there were also other magical showings I can't remember. Anyway Anduril is simply better because of it's versatility and magic abilities.

- I would argue that Anduril's dc is more impressive. Hurting Sauron in his canon Prime is more impressive than hurting Melkor in my opinion. Mostly because Melkor as at Dagor Bragollach was significantly weaker than he used to be. At that point he redistributed most of his power among his captains and allies and had plenty of rather weak showings in the same time period while Sauron in his Prime was frequently compared to Morgoth in power. In other words, Prime Sauron is at least as impressive as Dagor Bragollach era Melkor to me, and remember that Ringil was incapable of dealing a fatal wound to Melkor. iirc Fingolfin was able to tag Melkor a total of EIGHT times and still couldn't get the job done. Compare that with Isildur one shotting Sauron with it and yeah, we end up with a definite winner in dc.

sword of fingolfin, brother of feanor, only blade to have wounded morgoth. Just a few.

Good try, but I win. And here I thought you had some trump card up your sleeve I didn't remember about. Anyway, at least Ringil was a pretty close call.

The only people that matter on the LotR team is Gandalf and the Balrog. Gandalf is up for debate because he still dies like a mortal man. If you don't have actual bullet timing feats for him then gtfo. He's strong, but he is not carrying this fight.

This thread is really Balrog vs team. Considering Balrogs have been getting stabbed for a few thousand years in LotR I'm giving this to team Cap.

@comicgirl21:

You say that if we scale Gandalf to small country levels with the feats from Silmarillion and other stuff we end up with a character that doesn't exist in the movies.

Both in movie and in the books. You cannot except him to perform such feats nor he ever did.

I disagree. Gandalf as "the White" acquired a power coming from Valar given to him to destroy Sauron specifically which made him the most powerful Maiar on the Face of Middle Earth, EVER, in Tolkien's own words. This means that Maiar who have COUNTRY level range of their magic and can hold back entire armies of dragons and balrogs, like mentioned Melian are weaker than Gandalf. Period.

If the Gandalf in his White form from the movies had the power and might Tolkien gave him, Jackson would have a very hard time fitting him in the story in a meaningful way. He is a character after all, he can't be capable of doing everything on his own.

Once again, I have to stress how ridiculously large a mountain is.

Thanks.

And it's a rather small mountain anyway. Now, get through every, literally every single of Gandalf's and Saruman's book showings. I assure you, there will be absolutely nothing on that level. Now, if you get to the movie, you have Saruman summoning a storm that covers such area easily. Plus it could crush rock. But that's not a mountain level attack. It didn't destroy any mountain. Now, don't get me wrong, this feat is great, but none of Saruman's showings scale to that one. We have seen him crush large rocks with shockwaves, use telekinesis and summon fireballs (and keep in mind, I'm using composite version. Book Saruman has less of those). But nothing was ever close to busting a mountain like some of those are.

There were MANY occasions in which moutains were busted in the LOTR lore. All of them belong to Valars who were fighting someone or something and destroyed moutains and sometimes entire continents along the way. That's what happened in the second battle against Morgoth. That's how Numenor was destroyed etc. So you are wrong, these feats DO exist. All you need is a character who can control the elements and has enough might to perform feats on this scale. Does Gandalf qualify? In my opinion he does, easily. He is not a Valar but he because the most powerful of Maiar and Sauron was many times quoted to be as powerful as previous dark lord, Melkor, who was a Valar. We also got other Maiar vs Valar encounters that suggest the gap between these entities is not unbreachable, for example Ungoliant vs Morgoth. So yeah, I believe putting Gandalf as the most powerful Maiar in Moutain tier is reasonable, since Valars are continental in tier at least.

Makes him walk all over Saruman's ass in the Isengard

Saruman of Many-Colors. Saruman who was no longer the head of the order and fall from his former glory because of the corruption in his heart. Do not get me wrong, it's a great showing, but do you realize what enormous blast do you need to truly bust a mountain?

Saruman of Many-Colors is the only Saruman we know tbh. Saruman as the White is almost featless. He did contribute to the siege of Dol Guldur but that's it. All of the feats Saruman gets from LOTR are the feats of the Saruman who betrayed the order and dumped the White robes. So of course I'm talking about him. Beating him, the previous most powerful Istari on Arda as casually as he did, with A WORD, without throwing one freakin punch or spell should be considered impressive as hell.

Also, to bust a moutain you don't need a blast. An earthquke will do, and we see elemental spirits cause those pretty regularly in LOTR. Obviously Gandalf doesn't walk around busting moutains but if the Valars can swipe away entire moutain range accidentally while sword fighting eachother, I believe the high tier Maiar can cause the natural disaster of moutain magniutes as well when seriously exerting himself. Again, look up at the Saruman's feat of covering entire country sized region in a storm so powerful the entire moutain sides were collapsing on the fellowship's heads. Well obviously it's not moutain busting per say, but it shows you that causing natural disasters on absolutely ridiculous scale is not out of range of Maiar even lesser than Gandalf, like Saruman. Isn't that exactly the proof you were looking for?

Makes him solo a huge chunk of the Uruk Hai army under Helms Deep with his presence alone

How is that remotely close to busting a mountain? As I said, Gandalf is impressive. He isn't a mountain buster. And what does it mean solo a huge chunk of Uruks? You mean, terrify them with his presence? True, Gandalf was always described as 'growing' when he revealed his true power. Nonetheless, Gandalf didn't win under the Helms Deep by himself. There were Rohirrims and treants.

Yes that's what I meant. I was only giving this as a showing of Gandalf's TP. His presence alone makes the armies of darkness completely lose their minds. They are unable to look at him and face him, they are either forced to drop their weapons and run away of like the humans from Dunland they will immediately lose the will to fight and surrender. Obviously it's not the same power as casuing huge natural disasters that could level a moutain, it's more of a feat of mind hax. But it's still very impressive, considering Gandalf the Gray had no such power.

Gives him ability to one shot 9 Nazgul at the same time with Elrond's River

He never did that. I don't think he did.

Well you can just pick up the Fellowship of the Ring and read the beginning of Many Meetings chapter if you don't believe me when I say it was Gandalf who crushed the Nine. Well he did share this feat with Elrond which I mentioned, but it's still no less impressive.

Makes statements about him being impossible to harm with any weapons the fellowship possesses.

As long as none of them tries to throw a bijuu bomb at him, such statements means nothing. I mean, those are what? Mid-street characters at best.

Nice lowball. It's not like Aragon wields the most powerful sword in the Lore capable of one shotting Sauron. But sure Gandalf being immune to that is nothing, totally. I mean surely Captain America of all characters has better than that up his utility belt. Get out dude!

So yeah, if you watch movies, you do not end up with a version of Gandalf that matches the power you find with scalings in his top feats. Tolkien however did it a lot more gracefully. Gandalf comes across as a deity after his return, but because Tolkien cares much more about his characters and the story he wants to tell, he keeps Gandalf as a character interesting by having a lot of meaningful happen all around him rather then putting Gandalf in the center. If you look closely, anywhere Gandalf steps in after he acquires the powers of the White, he absolutely wrecks everyone. But he can't be all at the same time, so Tolkien sends him to Helms Deep at the last second giving him solid excuses not to be there from the start by having him secure Edoras and gather resources and troops for Rohan, they would later use to reclaim the country and aid Gondor with, bringing Enkenbrand into the equation. Later he does the same when he sends Gandalf to Minas Tirith. He makes him more of a background character to not dominate the battle with his overwhelming power. For majority of the battle Gandalf doesn't fight, he simply walks around entire city casting protective spells, giving people strength and hope and dispelling Sauron's evil magic that makes the people unwilling to fight and incapable of doing as much as shooting their bows. In the movies he comes across as completely useless in comparison. All Gondorians seem perfectly capable of fighting without him around, and he doesn't cast a single spell, he's fighting incoming orcs one by one with his staff and sword as if he forgot to turn off his CQC mode.

Not a single thing you mentioned comes close to an abomination you get, when you try to put Gandalf at mountain-busting or claim Saruman has small country level feats.

You act as if all Moutain tier characters do is walk around and bust moutains. Is that really how you perceive fiction? Goku in DBS is tiers by most people on CV as freakin multiversal. Well that doesn't stop him from having a neat little brawl with a couple of THIEVES WITH MACHINE GUNS every once in a while. Why doesn't he just multiverse-bust their faces??!?! Well because the author has a story to tell. You get the top feats from a character when he shows his true power, but then to keep him more real you need to tone down a little and show him go through regular things. This is the case for Gandalf.

I feel like you are trying to make me respect Gandalf? I do brother/sister. I adore this verse. Thing is, none of those feats, forgive me the repetition, comes close to busting a mountain. Never.

Like I showed above, they clearly do. I do respect your opinion though. You really need to dip hard into Silmarillion and the whole Tolkien's mythology to see moutain and above level feats in LOTR and understand what tier of characters are capable of performing those, I understand that. Reading just LOTR alone you may just as well not come to the same conclusion as you would if you knew the whole lore like I do.

In other words, Tolkien can simply do it right. He can have an overpowered character in his story that if scaled properly appears to be a moutain+ tier, but he has him do background work and puts more human characters like Aragorn in front, only occasionally stepping into the light to wreck some powerhouse like Saruman and remind people how powerful he is. Jackson decided simply to nerf Gandalf and give him an appearance of a typical RPG mage character who uses flashy spells. If we use composite version from books and movies Gandalf ends up being pretty weird because of that. The rule is we take the top feats so that's what I did. But yeah the final result is most certainly unlike the movie version of Gandalf altogether.

Tolkien never implied Gandalf can bust a mountain. Check the showings gathered in the thread I provided. See the quotes and statements. Read Gandalf's showings. Then tell me that you see there someone who can bust a freakin mountain. A 2.6 * 10^11 tons of solid rock. Heck, even half of it. Sauron lost to two mortals. Two of their race's finest, but mortals nonetheless. There is not a single medium, not even Shadow of Mordor games, that portrays Isitari or Sauron at mountain busting.

Like I proved above, Sauron clearly is a moutain tier too, since he was compared regularly in might and power to Morgoth, a freakin Valar. He's also clearly above other Maiar who have above moutain tier feats so there's that. Anyways, good talk.

@comicgirl21: Anduril is a weapon from Second Age made by a dwarf. Glamdring, Orcrist and Sting are all weapons from the First Age made by Elves. Elves>/=Dwarves, First Age>Second Age.

@comicgirl21: anglachel and anguirel being featless? Turin turambar comes to mind.

Yeah he does. Him and the countless fodder orcs he killed. That's exactly what I'm talking about. I guess he did kill a dragon once, but since it's specifically said that he stabbed him through the scale-less soft tissue the feat is hardly recognizable as impressive showing for the blade.

Glamdring used against balrogs....Yeah, I really got nothing.

I didn't say killing Balrog's isn't impressive. I said it's less impressive than killing Sauron. I think you would agree on that. I'm not saying "DUDE THAT SWORD SUCKS" I'm saying - oh, that's good, but Anduril is still better - which is true.

You make a lot of assumptions, and the only "gods" in lotr would be the Valar, under eru illuvatar, which anduril was never used against. Lmao.

Both Valar and Maiar should be considered gods. They have immortal souls, have cast control over elements, nature and magic etc. Valar are simply more powerful KIND than Maiar. But like I explained specifically, Sauron was considered an equal to Morgoth in his prime, and it's that prime Sauron who was killed with Anduril so even if you insist we only call Valar gods, Sauron in his prime was still in their tier so, whatever, I'm right either way.

You want to go that route, feanor & sons swords(used against and to slay balrogs) we could go a few other routes, but damn. Narsil had a shared feat with aeglos, and it wasn't just the weapons, but the wielders also, of overthrowing sauron.

Do you have any proof Aegols even touched Sauron? We only know that Narsil did and that Gil Galad had his throat burned out by Sauron's hand when he tried to fight him. We have no proof Aeglos ever touched Sauron or contributed to his defeat anyhow. Besides, we're talking about a composite Anduril. In the movies, Anduril one shot Sauron, and it did it without the aid of any other fighter or weapon so I consider than it's highest showing if we're talking about a composite version of the lore. If we're switching to books only - well than it's a whole new discussion I guess, but like I mentioned, we only know that Narsil/Anduril was able to cut Sauron, we know nothing of Aeglos doing that. And for the last time, a blade that can cut Sauron > a blade that can cut Balrogs, so your arguments remain mute.

Inspired an entire army, that would, again, be the wielder, not just the sword.

I guess you are right, but the same can be said about almost every item, no? I mean the rods of the five wizards are considered among the most powerful artifacts in LOTR but the rod itself clearly doesn't autmatically makes you a wizard. Only in the right hands can those items be used to channel their power effectively. Same goes for the rings of power and other artifacts. It doesn't change the fact that Anduril does channel a lot of incredible magical abilities and auras, which makes it even more impressive.

Thought you knew Lotr a little bit, but apparently there's a lot of assumptions there.

Thanks. I'm trying to stick to canon facts as much as I can. We all do I guess.

@tourneymaster: The ring can corrupt Gandalf. Other maiar are vulnerable to others powers. So Gandalf could have done it but it would’ve clouded his mind. Same thing Sauron did to saruman would’ve happened to Gandalf. The witch king is unkillable except by certain weapons or people. Glamdring is not one of these weapons. In extended scene the witch king does battle Gandalf and Gandalf simply repels him from the higher levels of minas tirith. The other guy was only wrong about Gandalf being the strongest maiar.

Thanks. I'm the other... guy...? I guess. But yeah, Gandalf is the strongest maiar. Don't ask me, ask Tolkien. There are many quotes of Tolkien saying Gandalf as "the white" is the most powerful Maiar, on the face of Middle Earth, which would include Sauron. I can even recall him saying that in the context of Sauron specifically. He was talking via private letter what would happen if Gandalf and Sauron have contested over the Ring. Tolkien said that Gandalf without the Ring was more powerful than Sauron without the Ring, hinting that it's mostly because Sauron lost much of his power and form after being defeated. If you want to, I can dig through internet and find a proper quote from that letter. It's pretty known fact though.

Sauron is leagues above him, even being a threat to some valar.

@anakon4: madacientist224 had it right with "the only "gods" in lotr would be the Valar, under eru illuvatar.." gods being in quotes aka not actual gods.

The only god in lotr is eru illuvatar. There are no other gods in lotr. Quit while you're behind.

And basically any maiar potentially killing everyone in middle earth is some nice head canon. Write a fan fic, it'll look less ridiculous.

You play too much LOTRO dude. It doesn't matter what age the sword was made in, what matters is the swords FEATS. Just because someone makes a weapon in the third age doesn't mean he can't enchant it so that it would be more powerful than some random first age dagger found in a burrow in the dust. And even if you were correct, Telchar forged Narsil in the First Age, actually, and he wasn't SOME dwarf but he was considered the BEST blacksmith in the entire Beleriand, which included elves, man and dwarves alike. In other words, Anduril being a First Age weapon made by combined efforts of finest dwarf and elven blacksmiths should be considered the most powerful even by your standards.

I haven't played that game in years.

Too bad! The game is as great as ever. It went through one heck of a renaissance a few years back, adding Beornings, High Elves and a lot of other character choices and in recent two years there's been massive content increase as well. Worth returning every time.

Not to mention that LOTRO actually get's weapon system right.

I wouldn't say anything wrong about LOTRO ever. To this day it remains one of the most iconics game of my life. Well next to legends such as Heroes III, Baldurs Gate 2 and a few more I guess. Also there's League of Legends which is a freakin drug.

The older means stronger. Ancient Elves were able to fight against Morgoth. Do you have any idea what could an army of 10, 000 Noldor from the Wars of Beleriand do in LotR era? They would decimate the entire Mordor by themselves.

Interesting. I wouldn't say it's the rule. I mean I totally get your point dont get me wrong. There is certainly a LOT of powerful artifacts from the first era and Narsil is one of them. But why do you believe third era is incapable of matching the first? There is a ton of characters who lived from the first era all the way to third after all, you'd think that by the third age they would gain a lot of experience and power and would make even more powerful stuff as well. Also the elves that marched into Beleriand were no doubt powerful as they wielded Valinor gear and had the "fire of undying trees in their eyes" and stuff, but who is more powerful honestly, Galadriel as she was when marching to Middle Earth in the first age, or the third age Galadriel who was feared by Sauron himself and had her own Kingdom? I think in some instances older is not better. It is an interesting theory tho.