LOTR Team vs Captain America Team

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#1 Edited by TourneyMaster (1726 posts) - - Show Bio
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Gandalf the White, Witch King, Talion, and Balrog.

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Captain America, Winter Soldier, Falcon, and Black Panther.

Gear

  • Bucky has Kevlar Armor, M9 Beretta with 15 bullets, M4 AR with 25 rounds, several Frag Grenades, and Combat Knife.
  • Cap has Kevlar armor, and Proto Adamantium Shield.
  • Falcon has flight gear.
  • BP has Vibranium Weave Armor, Anti Metal Claws, Energy Daggers, Cloak. Assume Wraiths can see through it like Ring Invisibility for sake of streamline arguments.
  • Gandalf has Chainmail Armor, the Ring Narya, Sword Glamdring, and Staff.
  • Witch King has his Battle Armor, Nazgul Blade, Giant Flail, and Fell Beast mount.
  • Talion has his Chainmail Armor, the Ring of Celebrimbor, the Sword Urfael fully upgraded, and full Wraith powers.
  • Balrog has his Fire Sword and Fire Whip.

Rules

  • Marvel is 616. LOTR is Movie, Games, and Novels.
  • Death or KO.
  • Semi Knowledge of the other team. Nothing detail, just their gear, abilities, and stats.
  • LOTR has same Team Work as Cap Team would have.
  • Both sides are in character.
  • Start 50 feet away here.
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#2 Posted by ComicGirl21 (1263 posts) - - Show Bio

Hopefully this is a joke, Gandalf solos with one hand and no staff. Reborn Gandalf has sick feats and is easily above moutain level.

Also LOTR team is all over the place in dc and stats...

Gandalf is Moutain level+

Balrog is city block level

Witchking is small building-wall level

Talion is peak human

Each represent a completely different tier. Not to mention all of them have some very hard hax and are immune to bullets and any non-magical harm. I could make the case for each to solo with the only possible exception being Talion.

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#3 Posted by TourneyMaster (1726 posts) - - Show Bio
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#4 Edited by Helloman (30115 posts) - - Show Bio

The LOTR team wins.

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#5 Posted by ComicGirl21 (1263 posts) - - Show Bio

@comicgirl21: mountain plus and city level.... Feats?

I'm here to serve.

Gandalf is not just a peak human staff and sword fighter. Actually, that part of his entity is just a shell for his true power, acting as a vessel. In the books, Gandalf is completely immune to even most powerful of magical artifacts. This is illustrated when Aragorn's Anduril, the most powerful sword in the lore of LOTR, is incapable of hurting Gandalf at all. Legolas is not able to hurt him either. This is somewhat reflected in the movies, though Aragorn didn't have Anduril yet at that point in Jackson's version. Please take a note, that this sword was used to cut down Sauron, who is second most powerful Maiar to Gandalf in the Lore. This alone should give you a hint at how powerful Gandalf is.

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Not only is Gandalf immune to basically all weapons and conventional means of harm, he is actually immune to magic as well. Saruman who was absolutely trashing Gandalf in his previous form, is getting one shot by him with a single word, and his fireball spell simply bounces off Gandalf's powerful passive force field. Almot the same thing happened in the books, only Gandalf humiliated Saruman even more by stomping him with TP as well.

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On the same note, Gandalf is stomping Saruman in this form, and Saruman is capable of causing weather anomalies on a huge chunk of Misty Moutains, easily the size of a small country.

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The anomalies cause thunders so powerful entire moutain sides were collpsing on the fellowship's heads, despite Gandalf's counterspells. That may not be a moutain feat per say, but causing country sized weather anomalies that include moutain side busting lightnigs comes close enough for my taste. Anyway's that's Saruman, who'm Gandalf the White one shot and stomped, so saying Gandalf is moutain level doesn't seem too highballed at all.

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Top that with the fact that Gandalf is canonically more powerful than any maiar before him. This means he is even more powerful than Melian, a Maiar who was able to shield an entire country with a forcefield so powerful it could stop armies of Balrogs, Dragons and even Morgoth himself from entering.

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Besides that Gandalf has them hax. These includes elemental control. He can cause small earthquakes that shatter large boulders with a strike of his staff even as Gandalf the Gray. This is obviously amplified many times in his white form.

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He can control and command light to create powerful barriers

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Can summon and channel lightning

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Can use telekinesis powerful enough to ragdoll even his superiors in power and one shot building level structures

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In the books, he also has vast control over fire element. Notice that most of that is Gandalf the Gray, which means this is his HEAVILY nerfed version.

Then there are hax that include the ability to WILL other people to do what he wants. Literally, Gandalf is an omega level telepath by the comicbook standards. Unless you are as powerful as him, even a sorcerer as powerful as Saruman has to go "Sit" whenever Gandalf orders him to do it. So let's sum up Gandalf:

- Complete invulnerability to any normal means of harm, which frankly includes even the most powerful magical sword in his lore.

- Almost complete invlunerability to magic, unless it's as powerful or more powerful than his own.

- Passive forcefields that shield him (can also create additional forcefields with light)

- Elemental control. He can control lightning, light, cause earthquakes etc...

- Powerful telekinesis, at least building level in his Grey form.

- His magic in the White form scales to other Maiars with feats of shielding/destroying country sized regions like Melian and Saruman.

- Omega level telepathy, basically mind control over all but the strongest magical beings.

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#6 Posted by TourneyMaster (1726 posts) - - Show Bio

@comicgirl21: if Gandalf was that powerful then why did he have issues with Witch King in Gondor battle? Why not take the ring himself to the volcano himself since the entire Ork army could.not harm him or simply be TP? Why not conjure a country size storm on the Black Gates instead needing a army to.distract Sauron?

A lot of this comes off as wank. The storm feat suggest much prep needed to pull off. I never saw Gandalf TP one soul in films? I really dont remember any TP mind control from original novels or the games.

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#8 Posted by TourneyMaster (1726 posts) - - Show Bio
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#9 Posted by ComicGirl21 (1263 posts) - - Show Bio

@comicgirl21: if Gandalf was that powerful then why did he have issues with Witch King in Gondor battle?

He didnt have any isues with the Witch King. He would've pimp smacked him all the way back to Mordor if the fight ever took place. Jackson's version in that particular instance was pure fantasy and I think even he realized this, and that's why the scene never made it to final cut. After all, he made Aragorn beat the Witch King with a torch before so this wouldn't make any damn sens. In the books, they just exchange glares. That's it.

Why not take the ring himself to the volcano himself since the entire Ork army could.not harm him

He got the White amp long after he and Frodo got separated. As Gandalf the Gray he could never get the job done. Sauron would absolutely demolish him just like he did in the Hobbit and that would be it. When he was White he was much more needed in Rohan to defeat Saruman and later in Gondor to help with the massive siege.

or simply be TP?

well actually orcs were under the TP of Sauron so Gandalf the Gray, could not possible break the spell of a much more powerful being. And when he was the White, he was basically wrecking orcs with TP left and right. In Helms Deep he was basically an entire force by himself. The movies portrayed him as leading Eomer's Rohirrim and doing some blind spell agianst Uruk Hai, in the books, Gandalf engaged in the battle alone from his own front, and made all Uruk Hai and Dunlandings flee in terror from him, dropping their weapons or falling flat before him as he approached. His massive TP can't be denied in books and as White it's pretty consistently OP.

Why not conjure a country size storm on the Black Gates

Country sized storm on Black Gates would be probably contested by Sauron and negated for the most part. Like I mentioned Gandalf the White is more powerful then Sauron, but not really by much. A spell of that magnitude would be largely cancelled by Sauron's own magic. Mordor is also his own terrain where he is most powerful so it's possible he would be actually able to completely dispell it in that context. Sending an army was the only option, really.

instead needing a army to.distract Sauron?

A lot of this comes off as wank.

Not really if you know the books and the context. Gandalf power was very consistent and powerful in the books. He comes off as pretty much god after his return. Well he did single handedly saved two countries from being taken over by Saruman and Sauron, beating Saruman's ass and contributing to Sauron's defeat largely so in my opinion he used his powers very effectively and did his job.

The storm feat suggest much prep needed to pull off.

If you count going into a roof and singing for a while as prep so be it. It doesn't change the fact that Maiar are capable of feats of that scale and it's also not unheared off even among smaller sorcerers in LotR. I mean both Galadriel and Elrond also have country level magic feats and they are just super old and powerful elf sorcerers, not even Maiars.

I never saw Gandalf TP one soul in films?

You can't even recall Gandalf fighting over Theoden's mind with Saruman? That was an iconic scene. Theoden was being TP'd be Saruman for a long time and Gandalf frees him, obviously showing superior TP. But yeah, maybe you're right, there was not that much TP in the movies. Maybe Jackson thought it was too overpowered and only saved it for a few scenes.

I really dont remember any TP mind control from original novels or the games.

Well Nazguls are great examples of mind controlled puppets of Sauron. Orcs were also to some extent mind controlled by Sauron. When the ring was destroyed, the entire army of morder dispatched and fled like wild animals. They were basically all held together with Sauron's mind.

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#10 Edited by TourneyMaster (1726 posts) - - Show Bio

@comicgirl21: Your logic still does not add up.

He didnt have any isues with the Witch King. He would've pimp smacked him all the way back to Mordor if the fight ever took place. Jackson's version in that particular instance was pure fantasy and I think even he realized this, and that's why the scene never made it to final cut. After all, he made Aragorn beat the Witch King with a torch before so this wouldn't make any damn sens. In the books, they just exchange glares. That's it.

He still could one shot the Nazgul when saving the Gondor Rangers riding back. In the movie he flashes them with light, but if as powerful as you claim, then why not one shot them right then and there with his mountain level power?! Why not take out the armies by himself with mountain power or TP? Its not matching up mate.

He got the White amp long after he and Frodo got separated. As Gandalf the Gray he could never get the job done. Sauron would absolutely demolish him just like he did in the Hobbit and that would be it. When he was White he was much more needed in Rohan to defeat Saruman and later in Gondor to help with the massive siege.

Again, why not simply ride into Mordor, get the ring from them, and march to the volcano with laughs? He could of and ended it all.

well actually orcs were under the TP of Sauron so Gandalf the Gray, could not possible break the spell of a much more powerful being. And when he was the White, he was basically wrecking orcs with TP left and right. In Helms Deep he was basically an entire force by himself. The movies portrayed him as leading Eomer's Rohirrim and doing some blind spell agianst Uruk Hai, in the books, Gandalf engaged in the battle alone from his own front, and made all Uruk Hai and Dunlandings flee in terror from him, dropping their weapons or falling flat before him as he approached. His massive TP can't be denied in books and as White it's pretty consistently OP.

Bullshit he was wrecking Orks. If a Omega level telepath he should mind wipe every Orc in that battle. Omega TPs mind wipe and mind control every person on a planet. Billions. Not mere thousands. If as powerful as you claim he would not needed the recently banished Rohan calvary running around to save everyone, he should been a one man army unkillable and taking out orcs over a course of several days by himself.

Country sized storm on Black Gates would be probably contested by Sauron and negated for the most part. Like I mentioned Gandalf the White is more powerful then Sauron, but not really by much. A spell of that magnitude would be largely cancelled by Sauron's own magic. Mordor is also his own terrain where he is most powerful so it's possible he would be actually able to completely dispell it in that context. Sending an army was the only option, really.

So your excuse now is Sauron who is weaker would stop it. If Sauron is weaker then he should be taxed as hell and eventually lose the fight if Gandalf did it long enough. That simple. Its a stamina fight at that point. Either Gandalf was stronger or not. He is not stringer if Sauron is able to counter it period.

Not really if you know the books and the context. Gandalf power was very consistent and powerful in the books. He comes off as pretty much god after his return. Well he did single handedly saved two countries from being taken over by Saruman and Sauron, beating Saruman's ass and contributing to Sauron's defeat largely so in my opinion he used his powers very effectively and did his job.

If by save two countries with the help of millions of soldiers and top tier legendary heroes/kings, then yeah. I mean, he sure as hell did nothing on his own :/ If no weapon can harm him and he is a omega level telepath, he should straight up Superman walk into a battle on his own and destroy thousands at a time while smoking a pipe. Nothing can harm him and he just thinks people dead. Not the case at all.

If you count going into a roof and singing for a while as prep so be it. It doesn't change the fact that Maiar are capable of feats of that scale and it's also not unheared off even among smaller sorcerers in LotR. I mean both Galadriel and Elrond also have country level magic feats and they are just super old and powerful elf sorcerers, not even Maiars.

Thats fair still requires set up time and not a heat of battle worthy feat.

You can't even recall Gandalf fighting over Theoden's mind with Saruman? That was an iconic scene. Theoden was being TP'd be Saruman for a long time and Gandalf frees him, obviously showing superior TP. But yeah, maybe you're right, there was not that much TP in the movies. Maybe Jackson thought it was too overpowered and only saved it for a few scenes.

Yes he had a TP fight for the King of Rohan, but he never flat out TP anyone in a fight. He was just exocersing Saruman from the King.

Well Nazguls are great examples of mind controlled puppets of Sauron. Orcs were also to some extent mind controlled by Sauron. When the ring was destroyed, the entire army of morder dispatched and fled like wild animals. They were basically all held together with Sauron's mind.

Sauron mind control Orcs and Nazgul, sur, but not all willy nilly. Hell Bright Lord in game mind control the servants against Sauron's will, and he needed physical contact to pull even that off. Even Saurons lackeys mind control was not instant. The Nazgul "fell" into darkness, not instantly mind control puppets. The Orcs who were former elves had to be "twisted" to be Saurons. You make it sound like they TP people Jean Grey Style. Thats a lie.

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#11 Posted by Xerolot (3039 posts) - - Show Bio

@foxerdes Watch out for Gandalf mountain level feats overhere

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#12 Edited by foxerdes (10416 posts) - - Show Bio

@xerolot: Lord of the Ring is such a garbage universe to use in a debate when you don't take into account entire bibliography and nuances of Tolkien's creative process. You turn it into some .. feat-driven abomination.

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#13 Posted by ComicGirl21 (1263 posts) - - Show Bio

@comicgirl21: Your logic still does not add up.

Dude, you really need to chill. This is just a novel. Why didn't Doctor Strange use his magic in comic to protect the entire earth from crime at all times? I mean he is pretty much freakin multiversal level reality warper in some of those I shit you not. But somehow poor Daredevil and Spiderman still have to run around their neighborhoods in thighs every night? That surely must mean Doctor Strange is just wall level and all of his cosmic adventures are outliers or wank. This just doesn't work that way. I just present Gandalf's top feats and obviously his character won't always hold up to perfect logic because it's just fiction. This doesn't change the fact that Gandalf does scale to country level beings and has plenty of hax that put him tiers above your team from the OP. Which is all I wanted to say really.

He didnt have any isues with the Witch King. He would've pimp smacked him all the way back to Mordor if the fight ever took place. Jackson's version in that particular instance was pure fantasy and I think even he realized this, and that's why the scene never made it to final cut. After all, he made Aragorn beat the Witch King with a torch before so this wouldn't make any damn sens. In the books, they just exchange glares. That's it.

He still could one shot the Nazgul when saving the Gondor Rangers riding back. In the movie he flashes them with light, but if as powerful as you claim, then why not one shot them right then and there with his mountain level power?!

He already did one shot all 9 nazgul at the same time as Gandalf the Gray. Remember the river scene with Arwen? Yeah originally it was not Arwen but Elrond and Gandalf who made the river rise and flood the Riders. Actually all Elrond did was raise the water level. Gandalf was the one to enchant the water turning it into horse riders made from water and he also put an avalanche of huge boulders in the water, so Nazgul got crushed by an avalanche of stones, water and magic horse riders by Gandalf. And he one shot all of them with just one spell, and from half a country away while sippin on his tea. Oh and did I mention it was just Gandalf the Gray who did it?

And obviously he did one shot the Nazgul with that light. If you are asking why didn't they explode from all that power of his, well Nazgul are immortal. They can't really die, or rather, they are dead already. So all Gandalf can ever do, both in the scene with a River and with a scene with the light, is cast them away temporairly. And obviously, because he is much more powerful, he just does it with a single spell each time. Previously he needed a large spell that eclipsed an entire river with two elements, rocks and enchanted water riders to beat them, now as white he is simply rising his hand, a tiny beam of light shines and they are owned instantly. I can't see how that's not impressive.

Why not take out the armies by himself with mountain power or TP? Its not matching up mate.

I already elaborated on that. Gandalf did take entire armies with TP. It happened on Helm's Deep. He can't do it against armies of Sauron though, because Sauron is a powerful telepath as well and he controlls his orcs, and he can match Gandalf in that power.

He got the White amp long after he and Frodo got separated. As Gandalf the Gray he could never get the job done. Sauron would absolutely demolish him just like he did in the Hobbit and that would be it. When he was White he was much more needed in Rohan to defeat Saruman and later in Gondor to help with the massive siege.

Again, why not simply ride into Mordor, get the ring from them, and march to the volcano with laughs? He could of and ended it all.

I don't think you even read my post. I already told you, Sauron is a challenge for Gandalf, Gandalf can not possibly just march into Mordor alone. Sauron has huge armies, and a lot of powerful beings at his side. Even with Gandalf being slightly more powerful at the point of him being white, without a proper backup he could never just solo Mordor. And I never stated that he did. Also he didn't know where Frodo was at that point, so how do you imagine him "getting ring from him?" and finally, the entire point was that Gandalf could not carry the ring, otherwise it would feed off his power and corrupt him. That's like... really basic stuff dude. Here I thought you are at least familiar with the lore if you are making threads like these.

well actually orcs were under the TP of Sauron so Gandalf the Gray, could not possible break the spell of a much more powerful being. And when he was the White, he was basically wrecking orcs with TP left and right. In Helms Deep he was basically an entire force by himself. The movies portrayed him as leading Eomer's Rohirrim and doing some blind spell agianst Uruk Hai, in the books, Gandalf engaged in the battle alone from his own front, and made all Uruk Hai and Dunlandings flee in terror from him, dropping their weapons or falling flat before him as he approached. His massive TP can't be denied in books and as White it's pretty consistently OP.

Bullshit he was wrecking Orks. If a Omega level telepath he should mind wipe every Orc in that battle. Omega TPs mind wipe and mind control every person on a planet. Billions. Not mere thousands. If as powerful as you claim he would not needed the recently banished Rohan calvary running around to save everyone, he should been a one man army unkillable and taking out orcs over a course of several days by himself.

Omega level is entire planet? Okay I didn't know. I thought it was just an ability to control huge massess at the same time, not on planet scale necessairly. Anyway's he can TP entire armies and he did it, for the last time, Helms Deep is a good example, and no, he could not do it to orcs, because they are under TP of Sauron and Gandalf can not repel the spell of someone as close to power to himself.

Country sized storm on Black Gates would be probably contested by Sauron and negated for the most part. Like I mentioned Gandalf the White is more powerful then Sauron, but not really by much. A spell of that magnitude would be largely cancelled by Sauron's own magic. Mordor is also his own terrain where he is most powerful so it's possible he would be actually able to completely dispell it in that context. Sending an army was the only option, really.

So your excuse now is Sauron who is weaker would stop it. If Sauron is weaker then he should be taxed as hell and eventually lose the fight if Gandalf did it long enough.

It was hinted that this could end that way. Gandalf didn't want to challenge Sauron though and he did have his reasons. We also have no idea to what extent Gandalf was more powerful. It's possible that in TP specifically Sauron held an advantage.

That simple. Its a stamina fight at that point. Either Gandalf was stronger or not. He is not stringer if Sauron is able to counter it period.

Why are you so hostile? Like WTF are you even talking about with those ridiculous absolutes? "Either he is stronger or he's not"? Like wtf. Cap can win a fight against Spiderman but that doesn't mean he is stronger than him in every aspect, just come on. You know it's not how that works. There are a lot of variables to every fight. Sauron could just as well be more powerful in TP but less powerful in dc. There's nothing to be so frustrated about. It's just fiction. Chill bro.

Not really if you know the books and the context. Gandalf power was very consistent and powerful in the books. He comes off as pretty much god after his return. Well he did single handedly saved two countries from being taken over by Saruman and Sauron, beating Saruman's ass and contributing to Sauron's defeat largely so in my opinion he used his powers very effectively and did his job.

If by save two countries with the help of millions of soldiers and top tier legendary heroes/kings, then yeah. I mean, he sure as hell did nothing on his own :/

Wow so much cringe yet again. Why do you hate Gandalf so much? Is that why you make the thread, to see people shit at him? That's just so low... If you read the books you'll know how much he did. And for the last time, Sauron had a massive country with millions of orcs and beasts at his disposal and a private army of powerful magical beings and allies serving him which included undead spirits, minor Maiars such as Shelob, Ring Wrights, Fell Beasts, Dark Numenorian Sorcerers, Saruman and much more... so how do you exactly imagine Gandalf just doing everything solo with him being only slightly more powerful then Sauron alone and only for half of the story? You are not making any sens expecting that much of him.

If no weapon can harm him and he is a omega level telepath, he should straight up Superman walk into a battle on his own and destroy thousands at a time while smoking a pipe. Nothing can harm him and he just thinks people dead. Not the case at all.

This is pretty much how he was fighting in the books. Whenever he entered the battlefield, his TP aura made every ally around full of strength and recovered and all of his enemies were dropping on the floor in terror or fleeing for their lives. And yeah, no weapon could harm him so he was basically in the most heated places of battle and he never got a scratch so you are pretty much correct. And the only reason why he didn't just one shot entire army under Minas Tirith with TP was because, for the last freakin time, Sauron is a match in TP for him so I guess instead of challenging him for the minds of the armies and struggling for a whole day to cast him out he proffered to make some good use from his powers and support his allies.

If you count going into a roof and singing for a while as prep so be it. It doesn't change the fact that Maiar are capable of feats of that scale and it's also not unheared off even among smaller sorcerers in LotR. I mean both Galadriel and Elrond also have country level magic feats and they are just super old and powerful elf sorcerers, not even Maiars.

Thats fair still requires set up time and not a heat of battle worthy feat.

I never said Gandalf can flick his wand and a mountain will explode. Obviously his top feats have a lot of context, as usual, but he does operate on these scales easily, in my opinion on even greater and that was the whole point I was trying to make.

You can't even recall Gandalf fighting over Theoden's mind with Saruman? That was an iconic scene. Theoden was being TP'd be Saruman for a long time and Gandalf frees him, obviously showing superior TP. But yeah, maybe you're right, there was not that much TP in the movies. Maybe Jackson thought it was too overpowered and only saved it for a few scenes.

Yes he had a TP fight for the King of Rohan, but he never flat out TP anyone in a fight. He was just exocersing Saruman from the King. He did TP in the fight in the books a lot. Like I said, probably Jackson wanted to keep Gandalf more to the ground to increase the tension.

Well Nazguls are great examples of mind controlled puppets of Sauron. Orcs were also to some extent mind controlled by Sauron. When the ring was destroyed, the entire army of morder dispatched and fled like wild animals. They were basically all held together with Sauron's mind.

Sauron mind control Orcs and Nazgul, sur, but not all willy nilly. Hell Bright Lord in game mind control the servants against Sauron's will, and he needed physical contact to pull even that off. Even Saurons lackeys mind control was not instant. The Nazgul "fell" into darkness, not instantly mind control puppets. The Orcs who were former elves had to be "twisted" to be Saurons. You make it sound like they TP people Jean Grey Style. Thats a lie.

The Shadow of Mordor is not canon and it directly contradicts the canon of both movies and novels in many basic aspects so I really don't know what to tell you here. The way magic works there is very weird and not similar to other lore sources too. All I know is that Sauron did TP all of his armies Jean Grey Style in the books. That's a fact. It was described as the "will of Sauron" that was holding his grasp on all of his servants and on all of his land. He did have several artifacts and demon allies that were amplifying it too, like the Palantir he stole and "reprogrammed" to channel his TP and the silent watchers he had set up all over Mordor to channel his will directly wherever he needed it to be stronger. But in total he did have a MASSIVE range of his TP, being able to control his minions on continental scale and in countless millions of numbers all at the same time. So if that's not Jean Grey telepathy style, I don't know what is.

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#14 Posted by ComicGirl21 (1263 posts) - - Show Bio

@foxerdes said:

@xerolot: Lord of the Ring is such a garbage universe to use in a debate when you don't take into account entire bibliography and nuances of Tolkien's creative process. You turn it into some .. feat-driven abomination.

I kinda wanna agree. Tolkien's universe is as far from modern comicbooks as you can get. It's never about busting moutains or doing anything similar to that in his stories. But it is possible to scale it down to the CV reality by using calcs and comparisons. I can't see how is calling Gandalf a moutain tier causing such outrage. He is only one tier below Valar spirits, who are responsible for creating the freakin universe. And even if we dismiss that as Illuvatar's feat they still made entire planet reshape it's continents when they were just fighting eachother. So if Valars can just accidentally reshape continents by fighting, a top Maiar, who is just one tier below them can't be called moutain level? And we just gonna ignore the fact that other Maiar such as Melian have country level feats and some Maiar like Ungoliant were actually able to threaten and almost KILL a Valar too? LOTR may be hard to scale but it's not impossible. Though I agree it pretty much robs the world form it's true worth and is in the end pretty pathetic and pointless.

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#15 Edited by foxerdes (10416 posts) - - Show Bio

@comicgirl21: I do agree - it's not impossible. Heck, you can use them quite reliably. Thing is that at some point, especially when you let yourself immerse into Comic Vine's world of statements and feats and logic, you find yourself in a position where Gandalf the White on the comic vine seems to be a vastly different character than Gandalf in the books and movie. I used to gather his showings along other guys. Suddenly you find yourself in a world of calculations where Sauron is some city level telepath, and Gandalf ought to be one as well, since he managed to fend him off. Balrogs run to Ungoliah at mach 30 and so on and so on. But when you look at him actually fight in both movies and the books, especially the latter, he seems to have no such capabilities. Don't get me wrong, he is powerful -- he can command people without them being able to resist his will; he can also inspire and and terrify. We have seen him using fire and light and magic to crush his foes, disarm people with a word and break weapons of those who would dare strike him.

Did he ever outright perform something of a mountain level? I can't say 'yes'. And even if you reach immensely so that you can give a positive answer, can you honestly say that you expect him to perform a feat on that scale directly or on regular basis? Without overanalyzing and comic vine's calculation? Please, do bear in mind that my opinion of Istari is heavily influenced by the many statements Tolkien made about them. I am not .. used to where some notions are trying to put him and while I certainly do acknowledge that Silmarillion presented many truly heroic characters like Hurin, I also feel like those two works differ in a way. We have seen god-like creatures call upon waves that crashed at the shore. We have seen the feats you've mentioned above. And we have also seen Gandalf fail and weaver. We have seen him guide people in a mortal shape, just like Tolkien intended him to do. Upon returning in white, his power increased furthermore, but to destroy a mountain or perform small-country level feats? Not even in his dreams, otherwise he would most likely crush the battle of Minas-Tirith himself.

My point is that themes matter in Lord of the Rings. Story matters. Motifs and heavy allegory matters a lot as well. Scrambling for feats often leads to ignoring those in favor of more battle-forum friendly version of the characters. Silmarillion is an old book of heros and gods, but I feel like Lord of the Ring was written with different things in mind. There a differences in Tolkien's work - it became more and more clear as the time passed. Hard to blame him; he is one man after all. Anyway, you can try to scale Sauron and Isitari to some insane level - but then you have to scale Nazguls, and Gil-galad and damn Elendil, both of whom faced and managed to overthrow Sauron in combat at the cost of their lives. Middle-Earth has a powerful individuals but the power levels and overall feats performd in different books ar at variance. I could rant and rant, about how Tolkien works treat power in a different way, as in you can differ power over oneself, power to heal and create, or finally power in a form most familiar for us - comic vine users, that is personal combat. Powerful person doesn't have to be a great fighter in those books. Magic is presented in a very old school, enigmatic shape as well. That's just my opinion though. I shan't berate anyone for having a different point of view than I do. I'll just poke it with a stick sometimes, lol.

EDIT: Check the Radagast thread, please.

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#16 Edited by foxerdes (10416 posts) - - Show Bio

On topic: depends on how fast the Marvel team will act, and willing to kill are they. Gandalf can most likely overpower some of them with sheer presence and might, not to mention disarm of all weapons. Balrog is a small powerhouse on his own, and Witch King is pretty much unkillable for them. You need enchanted weapons like barrow-blades or elven steel. Then again, they are trained, armed and freakishly fast. Not to mention decades of feats on their side.

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#17 Posted by noah_ouellette (3786 posts) - - Show Bio

@tourneymaster: The ring can corrupt Gandalf. Other maiar are vulnerable to others powers. So Gandalf could have done it but it would’ve clouded his mind. Same thing Sauron did to saruman would’ve happened to Gandalf. The witch king is unkillable except by certain weapons or people. Glamdring is not one of these weapons. In extended scene the witch king does battle Gandalf and Gandalf simply repels him from the higher levels of minas tirith. The other guy was only wrong about Gandalf being the strongest maiar. Sauron is leagues above him, even being a threat to some valar.

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#18 Posted by ComicGirl21 (1263 posts) - - Show Bio

@foxerdes: I just consider it entertainment you know. I obviously know Gandalf can't cast a spell and make a moutain blow up. That is not how magic works in LOTR. Magic is much more about an aspect of might and authority over others than it is about flashy dragon ball stuff in LOTR. Gandalf is powerful because not even Saruman can resist his will. I consider Gandalf physically forcing Saruman to obey him by just calling his name his most impressive feat and it obviously doesn't involve anything blowing up or any flashy energy beams.

Anyway there is one other way to consider here. And that is, that movies are GREATLY different from the books. You say that if we scale Gandalf to small country levels with the feats from Silmarillion and other stuff we end up with a character that doesn't exist in the movies. Well that is true, but he does exist in the books, at least it's a lot closer. If the Gandalf in his White form from the movies had the power and might Tolkien gave him, Jackson would have a very hard time fitting him in the story in a meaningful way. He is a character after all, he can't be capable of doing everything on his own.

So when Tolkien gives Gandalf unimaginable power:

- Makes him walk all over Saruman's ass in the Isengard

- Makes him solo a huge chunk of the Uruk Hai army under Helms Deep with his presence alone

- Gives him ability to one shot 9 Nazgul at the same time with Elrond's River

- Makes statements about him being impossible to harm with any weapons the fellowship possesses.

Jackson is making Gandalf look more human and to the ground on every step:

- Makes him look tiered after fighting over Theoden

- Gives River feat entirely to Arwen

- Puts Gandalf stomping Saruman only in extended edition

- Makes Gandalf a small fry in the Helms Deep battle

- Makes an impression some random orc could kill him if Pippin didn't stab him in time in Minas Tirith

- Makes him lose his staff to Witch King in extended cut

So yeah, if you watch movies, you do not end up with a version of Gandalf that matches the power you find with scalings in his top feats. Tolkien however did it a lot more gracefully. Gandalf comes across as a deity after his return, but because Tolkien cares much more about his characters and the story he wants to tell, he keeps Gandalf as a character interesting by having a lot of meaningful happen all around him rather then putting Gandalf in the center. If you look closely, anywhere Gandalf steps in after he acquires the powers of the White, he absolutely wrecks everyone. But he can't be all at the same time, so Tolkien sends him to Helms Deep at the last second giving him solid excuses not to be there from the start by having him secure Edoras and gather resources and troops for Rohan, they would later use to reclaim the country and aid Gondor with, bringing Enkenbrand into the equation. Later he does the same when he sends Gandalf to Minas Tirith. He makes him more of a background character to not dominate the battle with his overwhelming power. For majority of the battle Gandalf doesn't fight, he simply walks around entire city casting protective spells, giving people strength and hope and dispelling Sauron's evil magic that makes the people unwilling to fight and incapable of doing as much as shooting their bows. In the movies he comes across as completely useless in comparison. All Gondorians seem perfectly capable of fighting without him around, and he doesn't cast a single spell, he's fighting incoming orcs one by one with his staff and sword as if he forgot to turn off his CQC mode.

In other words, Tolkien can simply do it right. He can have an overpowered character in his story that if scaled properly appears to be a moutain+ tier, but he has him do background work and puts more human characters like Aragorn in front, only occasionally stepping into the light to wreck some powerhouse like Saruman and remind people how powerful he is. Jackson decided simply to nerf Gandalf and give him an appearance of a typical RPG mage character who uses flashy spells. If we use composite version from books and movies Gandalf ends up being pretty weird because of that. The rule is we take the top feats so that's what I did. But yeah the final result is most certainly unlike the movie version of Gandalf altogether.

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#19 Posted by Madscientist224 (1460 posts) - - Show Bio

@comicgirl21: what are you smoking saying anduril is the most powerful sword in lotr lore?

OT: anyone except talion on lotr team solos.

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#20 Posted by ComicGirl21 (1263 posts) - - Show Bio

@madscientist224: Well I didnt anal probe this subject there may be other swords comparable out there but Anduril certainly is in the top tier. The feats Aragorn has with it like cutting steel and bones with one swing like paper Berserk style, influencing the minds of entire armies by rising it in his hands, gaining authority over undead armies by simply having it and most importantly one shotting Sauron in his prime wielding the One Ring is pretty freakin OP as far as swords go. Not to mention the blade is double enchanted by both Numenorians and Elves making it probably the ultimate sword when it comes to magical properties. You are welcome to enlighten me by mentioning swords that are superior anytime tho.

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#21 Posted by Madscientist224 (1460 posts) - - Show Bio
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#22 Posted by Madscientist224 (1460 posts) - - Show Bio

@comicgirl21: lmao. Anglachel and anguirel, both forged by the dark elf eol. Aranruth, which once belonged to thingol of Dorian, later lost with ar pharazon the golden, glamdring (wielded by turgon king off gondolin in beleriand; latest wielded by gandalf) and orcrist (wielded latest by thorin) were mightier weapons then anduril, (both having been forged for war in gondolin against melkor morgoth, saurons master); ringil, sword of fingolfin, brother of feanor, only blade to have wounded morgoth. Just a few.

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#23 Edited by TourneyMaster (1726 posts) - - Show Bio

@madscientist224 said:

@tourneymaster: go read the books, then comeback and try and debate.

Read the books several times for Highschool and College. Try applying common sense and logic when reading such works mate, and try to debate then. All I see is wanking. By this logic used by you and Comicgirl, Captain America is Hulk level. He after all survive Hulk rampages several times, took Hulk blows, and KO Hulk with Spidey. Cap in one feat resist with ease a Omega Telepath with a laugh. I seen Cap America tag Quicksilver in several fights. So by all this logic, Cap is a Mach 1000, Hulk Strength/durable, immune to telepaths guy. Thats the shit logic being used here in this thread.

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#24 Posted by Madscientist224 (1460 posts) - - Show Bio

@tourneymaster: then you would know trying to go off of comparison to omega level mutants and crap like that is quite, huh, what's the word, idiotic. Ghost rider is a supernatural entity also, or, magic users like Stephen strange, and would be more apt as a comparison to handle the white then a mutant. But you apply your brand of common sense and we'll see. Oh, wait, you already did. And failed. I'll say it again, go read the books, and then comeback and try and debate.

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#25 Posted by ComicGirl21 (1263 posts) - - Show Bio

@madscientist224 said:

@tourneymaster: go read the books, then comeback and try and debate.

Read the books several times for Highschool and College. Try applying common sense and logic when reading such works mate, and try to debate then. All I see is wanking. By this logic used by you and Comicgirl, Captain America is Hulk level. He after all survive Hulk rampages several times, took Hulk blows, and KO Hulk with Spidey. Cap in one feat resist with ease a Omega Telepath with a laugh. I seen Cap America tag Quicksilver in several fights. So by all this logic, Cap is a Mach 1000, Hulk Strength/durable, immune to telepaths guy. Thats the shit logic being used here in this thread.

Now that's just offensive. Cap tagged Quicksilver but he never run at Mach 1000 himself. By comparison Gandalf didn't just beat Saruman who can cause country sized storms, he actually proved he knows the same spell when he was fighting against Saruman for the control of the storm in the same scene. AND on top of that he used the magic to control elements similarly in his fight against the Balrog. So it's completely not the same situation. Cap resisted a teleapth once, cool. But obviously he never used telepathy by himself. Gandalf didn't just resist telepathy, he used it and overpowered a more powerful user of it, Saruman. He also used it with great AoE effects on entire armies of opponents and allies. Gandalf clearly HAS these powers by himself, he doesn't just compare to other guys who use them. You are so biased it's hard for me to believe you really wanted this match to be fair in the first place. You are unwilling to accept the most simple feats from the books and you call wank on pure facts from the original pages of LOTR while at the same time claiming you know the material. You sir, are biased and arrogant to a silly degree. Better not make threads with a favored side in mind, you are not handling this well.

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#26 Edited by ComicGirl21 (1263 posts) - - Show Bio

@madscientist224 said:

@comicgirl21: lmao. Anglachel

Yea yeah the meteorite swords. They are badass af but come one, better than Anduril? Now that's just silly. This sword is featless. Cutting fodder orcs is no feat at all, no matter how easy it seemed to get the job done. Yeah there was a prophecy that this blade is to be used to kill Morgoth at the end of times but this does not replace blade's complete lack of impressive showings. The sword also displayed NO useful magical properties besides being sharp as hell at all. Either we judge swords by what they've done or this is pointless. Just because someone made the sword doesn't mean it's more powerful.

and anguirel

Almost as featless as it's sibling blade. I'd rank this blade a bit higher because of how it was described but it can not compare to magical and cutting feats of Anduril anyway.

, both forged by the dark elf eol. Aranruth,

This one I don't understand at all. The meteorite siblings are at least used pretty commonly even if just to cut down the fodder, but this sword I can't recalled being used once. It's just literally described as being THERE. Which in itself is obviously no feat at all. There's plenty of weapons of kings like those in the lore, why pick this one and suddenly claim it's better than the blade that killed Prime Sauron?

which once belonged to thingol of Dorian, later lost with ar pharazon the golden, glamdring

Ok, now you are just trying too hard. Both Orcrist and Glamdring are good, but obviously they were not that good. At least with the above you gave me the weapons used by kings and legendary heroes, but these? They were just made to kill goblins. That's literally what they were known for, killing goblins. Gandalf took Glamdring a tier up maybe by proving it can match Balrog's fire sword and by killing Balrog with it, but quite obviously, it's still a whole tier below a blade that killed freakin SAURON of all characters. And for the last time, just because they were made in Gondolin doesn't mean anything. There were probably forks and butter knives made in Gondolin too. That doesn't mean they should be ranked higher than a blade that killed Sauron. Obviously. Additionally I mentioned Anduril was made in Numenor and then reforged in Imladris, and both of these places had the blacksmiths just as impressive in their skill as Gondolin so even if we dismiss the feats and focus on the makers Anduril is more impressive simply because it bears the enchantments of both Numenorians and the High elves.

(wielded by turgon king off gondolin in beleriand; latest wielded by gandalf) and orcrist (wielded latest by thorin) were mightier weapons then anduril, (both having been forged for war in gondolin against melkor morgoth, saurons master); ringil,

Okay, you got that one right. I can agree that Ringil is the sword that's in the same tier with Anduril. However, I'd still put Anduril ahead by a slight marigin for below reasons:

- Ringil has a lot fewer feats than Anduril. I can't recall a single feat other than the duel vs Morgoth tbh.

- Besides being capable of hurting the gods which is a quality Anduril shares with Ringil, Ringil has no known magical properties, while Anduril has at least a few. Aragorn used it to dispell evil magic, control the undead, spread terror in enemy ranks and raise the morale and strength of his armies. Possibly there were also other magical showings I can't remember. Anyway Anduril is simply better because of it's versatility and magic abilities.

- I would argue that Anduril's dc is more impressive. Hurting Sauron in his canon Prime is more impressive than hurting Melkor in my opinion. Mostly because Melkor as at Dagor Bragollach was significantly weaker than he used to be. At that point he redistributed most of his power among his captains and allies and had plenty of rather weak showings in the same time period while Sauron in his Prime was frequently compared to Morgoth in power. In other words, Prime Sauron is at least as impressive as Dagor Bragollach era Melkor to me, and remember that Ringil was incapable of dealing a fatal wound to Melkor. iirc Fingolfin was able to tag Melkor a total of EIGHT times and still couldn't get the job done. Compare that with Isildur one shotting Sauron with it and yeah, we end up with a definite winner in dc.

sword of fingolfin, brother of feanor, only blade to have wounded morgoth. Just a few.

Good try, but I win. And here I thought you had some trump card up your sleeve I didn't remember about. Anyway, at least Ringil was a pretty close call.

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#27 Edited by Turr (1190 posts) - - Show Bio
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#28 Posted by Supermanthor (22700 posts) - - Show Bio

Lol

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#29 Posted by foxerdes (10416 posts) - - Show Bio

@comicgirl21:

You say that if we scale Gandalf to small country levels with the feats from Silmarillion and other stuff we end up with a character that doesn't exist in the movies.

Both in movie and in the books. You cannot except him to perform such feats nor he ever did.

If the Gandalf in his White form from the movies had the power and might Tolkien gave him, Jackson would have a very hard time fitting him in the story in a meaningful way. He is a character after all, he can't be capable of doing everything on his own.

Once again, I have to stress how ridiculously large a mountain is.

No Caption Provided

And it's a rather small mountain anyway. Now, get through every, literally every single of Gandalf's and Saruman's book showings. I assure you, there will be absolutely nothing on that level. Now, if you get to the movie, you have Saruman summoning a storm that covers such area easily. Plus it could crush rock. But that's not a mountain level attack. It didn't destroy any mountain. Now, don't get me wrong, this feat is great, but none of Saruman's showings scale to that one. We have seen him crush large rocks with shockwaves, use telekinesis and summon fireballs (and keep in mind, I'm using composite version. Book Saruman has less of those). But nothing was ever close to busting a mountain like some of those are.

Makes him walk all over Saruman's ass in the Isengard

Saruman of Many-Colors. Saruman who was no longer the head of the order and fall from his former glory because of the corruption in his heart. Do not get me wrong, it's a great showing, but do you realize what enormous blast do you need to truly bust a mountain?

Makes him solo a huge chunk of the Uruk Hai army under Helms Deep with his presence alone

How is that remotely close to busting a mountain? As I said, Gandalf is impressive. He isn't a mountain buster. And what does it mean solo a huge chunk of Uruks? You mean, terrify them with his presence? True, Gandalf was always described as 'growing' when he revealed his true power. Nonetheless, Gandalf didn't win under the Helms Deep by himself. There were Rohirrims and treants.

Gives him ability to one shot 9 Nazgul at the same time with Elrond's River

He never did that. I don't think he did.

Makes statements about him being impossible to harm with any weapons the fellowship possesses.

As long as none of them tries to throw a bijuu bomb at him, such statements means nothing. I mean, those are what? Mid-street characters at best.

So yeah, if you watch movies, you do not end up with a version of Gandalf that matches the power you find with scalings in his top feats. Tolkien however did it a lot more gracefully. Gandalf comes across as a deity after his return, but because Tolkien cares much more about his characters and the story he wants to tell, he keeps Gandalf as a character interesting by having a lot of meaningful happen all around him rather then putting Gandalf in the center. If you look closely, anywhere Gandalf steps in after he acquires the powers of the White, he absolutely wrecks everyone. But he can't be all at the same time, so Tolkien sends him to Helms Deep at the last second giving him solid excuses not to be there from the start by having him secure Edoras and gather resources and troops for Rohan, they would later use to reclaim the country and aid Gondor with, bringing Enkenbrand into the equation. Later he does the same when he sends Gandalf to Minas Tirith. He makes him more of a background character to not dominate the battle with his overwhelming power. For majority of the battle Gandalf doesn't fight, he simply walks around entire city casting protective spells, giving people strength and hope and dispelling Sauron's evil magic that makes the people unwilling to fight and incapable of doing as much as shooting their bows. In the movies he comes across as completely useless in comparison. All Gondorians seem perfectly capable of fighting without him around, and he doesn't cast a single spell, he's fighting incoming orcs one by one with his staff and sword as if he forgot to turn off his CQC mode.

Not a single thing you mentioned comes close to an abomination you get, when you try to put Gandalf at mountain-busting or claim Saruman has small country level feats. I feel like you are trying to make me respect Gandalf? I do brother/sister. I adore this verse. Thing is, none of those feats, forgive me the repetition, comes close to busting a mountain. Never.

In other words, Tolkien can simply do it right. He can have an overpowered character in his story that if scaled properly appears to be a moutain+ tier, but he has him do background work and puts more human characters like Aragorn in front, only occasionally stepping into the light to wreck some powerhouse like Saruman and remind people how powerful he is. Jackson decided simply to nerf Gandalf and give him an appearance of a typical RPG mage character who uses flashy spells. If we use composite version from books and movies Gandalf ends up being pretty weird because of that. The rule is we take the top feats so that's what I did. But yeah the final result is most certainly unlike the movie version of Gandalf altogether.

Tolkien never implied Gandalf can bust a mountain. Check the showings gathered in the thread I provided. See the quotes and statements. Read Gandalf's showings. Then tell me that you see there someone who can bust a freakin mountain. A 2.6 * 10^11 tons of solid rock. Heck, even half of it. Sauron lost to two mortals. Two of their race's finest, but mortals nonetheless. There is not a single medium, not even Shadow of Mordor games, that portrays Isitari or Sauron at mountain busting.

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#30 Edited by anakon4 (438 posts) - - Show Bio

I mean like Balrog and Talion can solo lol. Balrog destroyed an entire nation and Talion is above any street level character.

Also I have a strange feeling that people are overpowering Gandalf in this thread.

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#31 Posted by anakon4 (438 posts) - - Show Bio

@comicgirl21: Anduril is a weapon from Second Age made by a dwarf. Glamdring, Orcrist and Sting are all weapons from the First Age made by Elves. Elves>/=Dwarves, First Age>Second Age.

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#32 Edited by Madscientist224 (1460 posts) - - Show Bio

@comicgirl21: anglachel and anguirel being featless? Turin turambar comes to mind. Glamdring used against balrogs....Yeah, I really got nothing. You make a lot of assumptions, and the only "gods" in lotr would be the Valar, under eru illuvatar, which anduril was never used against. Lmao.

You want to go that route, feanor & sons swords(used against and to slay balrogs) we could go a few other routes, but damn. Narsil had a shared feat with aeglos, and it wasn't just the weapons, but the wielders also, of overthrowing sauron.

Inspired an entire army, that would, again, be the wielder, not just the sword.

Thought you knew Lotr a little bit, but apparently there's a lot of assumptions there.

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#33 Posted by anakon4 (438 posts) - - Show Bio

@madscientist224: Maiar are actually gods too only with lesser potential. Both Valar and Maiar are bound to walk the Middle-Earth while holding their power back.

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#34 Edited by Madscientist224 (1460 posts) - - Show Bio

@tourneymaster: hurh durh, you're logic means this. Oh, I'm being you, since you're going the mutant route still and high showings for Cap route. Oh, damn, I said to use supernatural entities and magic users (balrog, gandalf, witch King all fall under these two categories), oh, wait, that's the logic I used. Damn. You must be a short bus ranger. Keep it up special man. I believe in you.😉

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#35 Posted by Madscientist224 (1460 posts) - - Show Bio

@anakon4: that's just....wow.....all of them were of the Ainu, but straight from the silmarillion "The Great among these spirits the Elves name the Valar, the Powers of Arda, and Men have often called them gods."

None of the maiar are named as, or called, gods. Only the Valar.

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#36 Posted by Richard96 (5853 posts) - - Show Bio

Team LOTR godstomps.

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#37 Posted by ProbablyASphere (531 posts) - - Show Bio

The only people that matter on the LotR team is Gandalf and the Balrog. Gandalf is up for debate because he still dies like a mortal man. If you don't have actual bullet timing feats for him then gtfo. He's strong, but he is not carrying this fight.

This thread is really Balrog vs team. Considering Balrogs have been getting stabbed for a few thousand years in LotR I'm giving this to team Cap.

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#38 Posted by anakon4 (438 posts) - - Show Bio

@madscientist224: Because Elves and Men have more intel about Valar. They know all of them and Eru, but don't know that much about Maiar. And just because Men call them Gods doesn't mean they are. And it also won't change the fact that basically every Maiar on full potential could in theory destroy every inhabitant of Middle-Earth.

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#39 Posted by anakon4 (438 posts) - - Show Bio

The only people that matter on the LotR team is Gandalf and the Balrog. Gandalf is up for debate because he still dies like a mortal man. If you don't have actual bullet timing feats for him then gtfo. He's strong, but he is not carrying this fight.

This thread is really Balrog vs team. Considering Balrogs have been getting stabbed for a few thousand years in LotR I'm giving this to team Cap.

He neer died like a mortal. He was killed by a demon who destroyed the entire nation. Gandalf doesn't need bullet timing feats as he is basically god-like figure. If he wanted he can solo the other team. He is only limited by promise to his creator to hold back in normal world.

Cap team is a bunch of guys. LotR team is made of Demi-god, city level character, immortal and guy with peak human attributes and magical abilities to control entire armies, slow time etc. Gandalf, Balrog and Talion can solo. The end.

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#40 Posted by JOVIOLMA (7370 posts) - - Show Bio

LOTR.

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#41 Posted by Shortbusrangers (16 posts) - - Show Bio

@anakon4: madacientist224 had it right with "the only "gods" in lotr would be the Valar, under eru illuvatar.." gods being in quotes aka not actual gods.

The only god in lotr is eru illuvatar. There are no other gods in lotr. Quit while you're behind.

And basically any maiar potentially killing everyone in middle earth is some nice head canon. Write a fan fic, it'll look less ridiculous.

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#42 Edited by saymon3000 (181 posts) - - Show Bio

I thought this was going to be a serious thread, but then I read "Gandalf" I knew it was a joke. LMFAO

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#43 Posted by ComicGirl21 (1263 posts) - - Show Bio

@foxerdes said:

@comicgirl21:

You say that if we scale Gandalf to small country levels with the feats from Silmarillion and other stuff we end up with a character that doesn't exist in the movies.

Both in movie and in the books. You cannot except him to perform such feats nor he ever did.

I disagree. Gandalf as "the White" acquired a power coming from Valar given to him to destroy Sauron specifically which made him the most powerful Maiar on the Face of Middle Earth, EVER, in Tolkien's own words. This means that Maiar who have COUNTRY level range of their magic and can hold back entire armies of dragons and balrogs, like mentioned Melian are weaker than Gandalf. Period.

If the Gandalf in his White form from the movies had the power and might Tolkien gave him, Jackson would have a very hard time fitting him in the story in a meaningful way. He is a character after all, he can't be capable of doing everything on his own.

Once again, I have to stress how ridiculously large a mountain is.

Thanks.

No Caption Provided

And it's a rather small mountain anyway. Now, get through every, literally every single of Gandalf's and Saruman's book showings. I assure you, there will be absolutely nothing on that level. Now, if you get to the movie, you have Saruman summoning a storm that covers such area easily. Plus it could crush rock. But that's not a mountain level attack. It didn't destroy any mountain. Now, don't get me wrong, this feat is great, but none of Saruman's showings scale to that one. We have seen him crush large rocks with shockwaves, use telekinesis and summon fireballs (and keep in mind, I'm using composite version. Book Saruman has less of those). But nothing was ever close to busting a mountain like some of those are.

There were MANY occasions in which moutains were busted in the LOTR lore. All of them belong to Valars who were fighting someone or something and destroyed moutains and sometimes entire continents along the way. That's what happened in the second battle against Morgoth. That's how Numenor was destroyed etc. So you are wrong, these feats DO exist. All you need is a character who can control the elements and has enough might to perform feats on this scale. Does Gandalf qualify? In my opinion he does, easily. He is not a Valar but he because the most powerful of Maiar and Sauron was many times quoted to be as powerful as previous dark lord, Melkor, who was a Valar. We also got other Maiar vs Valar encounters that suggest the gap between these entities is not unbreachable, for example Ungoliant vs Morgoth. So yeah, I believe putting Gandalf as the most powerful Maiar in Moutain tier is reasonable, since Valars are continental in tier at least.

Makes him walk all over Saruman's ass in the Isengard

Saruman of Many-Colors. Saruman who was no longer the head of the order and fall from his former glory because of the corruption in his heart. Do not get me wrong, it's a great showing, but do you realize what enormous blast do you need to truly bust a mountain?

Saruman of Many-Colors is the only Saruman we know tbh. Saruman as the White is almost featless. He did contribute to the siege of Dol Guldur but that's it. All of the feats Saruman gets from LOTR are the feats of the Saruman who betrayed the order and dumped the White robes. So of course I'm talking about him. Beating him, the previous most powerful Istari on Arda as casually as he did, with A WORD, without throwing one freakin punch or spell should be considered impressive as hell.

Also, to bust a moutain you don't need a blast. An earthquke will do, and we see elemental spirits cause those pretty regularly in LOTR. Obviously Gandalf doesn't walk around busting moutains but if the Valars can swipe away entire moutain range accidentally while sword fighting eachother, I believe the high tier Maiar can cause the natural disaster of moutain magniutes as well when seriously exerting himself. Again, look up at the Saruman's feat of covering entire country sized region in a storm so powerful the entire moutain sides were collapsing on the fellowship's heads. Well obviously it's not moutain busting per say, but it shows you that causing natural disasters on absolutely ridiculous scale is not out of range of Maiar even lesser than Gandalf, like Saruman. Isn't that exactly the proof you were looking for?

Makes him solo a huge chunk of the Uruk Hai army under Helms Deep with his presence alone

How is that remotely close to busting a mountain? As I said, Gandalf is impressive. He isn't a mountain buster. And what does it mean solo a huge chunk of Uruks? You mean, terrify them with his presence? True, Gandalf was always described as 'growing' when he revealed his true power. Nonetheless, Gandalf didn't win under the Helms Deep by himself. There were Rohirrims and treants.

Yes that's what I meant. I was only giving this as a showing of Gandalf's TP. His presence alone makes the armies of darkness completely lose their minds. They are unable to look at him and face him, they are either forced to drop their weapons and run away of like the humans from Dunland they will immediately lose the will to fight and surrender. Obviously it's not the same power as casuing huge natural disasters that could level a moutain, it's more of a feat of mind hax. But it's still very impressive, considering Gandalf the Gray had no such power.

Gives him ability to one shot 9 Nazgul at the same time with Elrond's River

He never did that. I don't think he did.

Well you can just pick up the Fellowship of the Ring and read the beginning of Many Meetings chapter if you don't believe me when I say it was Gandalf who crushed the Nine. Well he did share this feat with Elrond which I mentioned, but it's still no less impressive.

Makes statements about him being impossible to harm with any weapons the fellowship possesses.

As long as none of them tries to throw a bijuu bomb at him, such statements means nothing. I mean, those are what? Mid-street characters at best.

Nice lowball. It's not like Aragon wields the most powerful sword in the Lore capable of one shotting Sauron. But sure Gandalf being immune to that is nothing, totally. I mean surely Captain America of all characters has better than that up his utility belt. Get out dude!

So yeah, if you watch movies, you do not end up with a version of Gandalf that matches the power you find with scalings in his top feats. Tolkien however did it a lot more gracefully. Gandalf comes across as a deity after his return, but because Tolkien cares much more about his characters and the story he wants to tell, he keeps Gandalf as a character interesting by having a lot of meaningful happen all around him rather then putting Gandalf in the center. If you look closely, anywhere Gandalf steps in after he acquires the powers of the White, he absolutely wrecks everyone. But he can't be all at the same time, so Tolkien sends him to Helms Deep at the last second giving him solid excuses not to be there from the start by having him secure Edoras and gather resources and troops for Rohan, they would later use to reclaim the country and aid Gondor with, bringing Enkenbrand into the equation. Later he does the same when he sends Gandalf to Minas Tirith. He makes him more of a background character to not dominate the battle with his overwhelming power. For majority of the battle Gandalf doesn't fight, he simply walks around entire city casting protective spells, giving people strength and hope and dispelling Sauron's evil magic that makes the people unwilling to fight and incapable of doing as much as shooting their bows. In the movies he comes across as completely useless in comparison. All Gondorians seem perfectly capable of fighting without him around, and he doesn't cast a single spell, he's fighting incoming orcs one by one with his staff and sword as if he forgot to turn off his CQC mode.

Not a single thing you mentioned comes close to an abomination you get, when you try to put Gandalf at mountain-busting or claim Saruman has small country level feats.

You act as if all Moutain tier characters do is walk around and bust moutains. Is that really how you perceive fiction? Goku in DBS is tiers by most people on CV as freakin multiversal. Well that doesn't stop him from having a neat little brawl with a couple of THIEVES WITH MACHINE GUNS every once in a while. Why doesn't he just multiverse-bust their faces??!?! Well because the author has a story to tell. You get the top feats from a character when he shows his true power, but then to keep him more real you need to tone down a little and show him go through regular things. This is the case for Gandalf.

I feel like you are trying to make me respect Gandalf? I do brother/sister. I adore this verse. Thing is, none of those feats, forgive me the repetition, comes close to busting a mountain. Never.

Like I showed above, they clearly do. I do respect your opinion though. You really need to dip hard into Silmarillion and the whole Tolkien's mythology to see moutain and above level feats in LOTR and understand what tier of characters are capable of performing those, I understand that. Reading just LOTR alone you may just as well not come to the same conclusion as you would if you knew the whole lore like I do.

In other words, Tolkien can simply do it right. He can have an overpowered character in his story that if scaled properly appears to be a moutain+ tier, but he has him do background work and puts more human characters like Aragorn in front, only occasionally stepping into the light to wreck some powerhouse like Saruman and remind people how powerful he is. Jackson decided simply to nerf Gandalf and give him an appearance of a typical RPG mage character who uses flashy spells. If we use composite version from books and movies Gandalf ends up being pretty weird because of that. The rule is we take the top feats so that's what I did. But yeah the final result is most certainly unlike the movie version of Gandalf altogether.

Tolkien never implied Gandalf can bust a mountain. Check the showings gathered in the thread I provided. See the quotes and statements. Read Gandalf's showings. Then tell me that you see there someone who can bust a freakin mountain. A 2.6 * 10^11 tons of solid rock. Heck, even half of it. Sauron lost to two mortals. Two of their race's finest, but mortals nonetheless. There is not a single medium, not even Shadow of Mordor games, that portrays Isitari or Sauron at mountain busting.

Like I proved above, Sauron clearly is a moutain tier too, since he was compared regularly in might and power to Morgoth, a freakin Valar. He's also clearly above other Maiar who have above moutain tier feats so there's that. Anyways, good talk.

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#44 Posted by ComicGirl21 (1263 posts) - - Show Bio

@anakon4 said:

@comicgirl21: Anduril is a weapon from Second Age made by a dwarf. Glamdring, Orcrist and Sting are all weapons from the First Age made by Elves. Elves>/=Dwarves, First Age>Second Age.

You play too much LOTRO dude. It doesn't matter what age the sword was made in, what matters is the swords FEATS. Just because someone makes a weapon in the third age doesn't mean he can't enchant it so that it would be more powerful than some random first age dagger found in a burrow in the dust. And even if you were correct, Telchar forged Narsil in the First Age, actually, and he wasn't SOME dwarf but he was considered the BEST blacksmith in the entire Beleriand, which included elves, man and dwarves alike. In other words, Anduril being a First Age weapon made by combined efforts of finest dwarf and elven blacksmiths should be considered the most powerful even by your standards.

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#45 Posted by ComicGirl21 (1263 posts) - - Show Bio

@comicgirl21: anglachel and anguirel being featless? Turin turambar comes to mind.

Yeah he does. Him and the countless fodder orcs he killed. That's exactly what I'm talking about. I guess he did kill a dragon once, but since it's specifically said that he stabbed him through the scale-less soft tissue the feat is hardly recognizable as impressive showing for the blade.

Glamdring used against balrogs....Yeah, I really got nothing.

I didn't say killing Balrog's isn't impressive. I said it's less impressive than killing Sauron. I think you would agree on that. I'm not saying "DUDE THAT SWORD SUCKS" I'm saying - oh, that's good, but Anduril is still better - which is true.

You make a lot of assumptions, and the only "gods" in lotr would be the Valar, under eru illuvatar, which anduril was never used against. Lmao.

Both Valar and Maiar should be considered gods. They have immortal souls, have cast control over elements, nature and magic etc. Valar are simply more powerful KIND than Maiar. But like I explained specifically, Sauron was considered an equal to Morgoth in his prime, and it's that prime Sauron who was killed with Anduril so even if you insist we only call Valar gods, Sauron in his prime was still in their tier so, whatever, I'm right either way.

You want to go that route, feanor & sons swords(used against and to slay balrogs) we could go a few other routes, but damn. Narsil had a shared feat with aeglos, and it wasn't just the weapons, but the wielders also, of overthrowing sauron.

Do you have any proof Aegols even touched Sauron? We only know that Narsil did and that Gil Galad had his throat burned out by Sauron's hand when he tried to fight him. We have no proof Aeglos ever touched Sauron or contributed to his defeat anyhow. Besides, we're talking about a composite Anduril. In the movies, Anduril one shot Sauron, and it did it without the aid of any other fighter or weapon so I consider than it's highest showing if we're talking about a composite version of the lore. If we're switching to books only - well than it's a whole new discussion I guess, but like I mentioned, we only know that Narsil/Anduril was able to cut Sauron, we know nothing of Aeglos doing that. And for the last time, a blade that can cut Sauron > a blade that can cut Balrogs, so your arguments remain mute.

Inspired an entire army, that would, again, be the wielder, not just the sword.

I guess you are right, but the same can be said about almost every item, no? I mean the rods of the five wizards are considered among the most powerful artifacts in LOTR but the rod itself clearly doesn't autmatically makes you a wizard. Only in the right hands can those items be used to channel their power effectively. Same goes for the rings of power and other artifacts. It doesn't change the fact that Anduril does channel a lot of incredible magical abilities and auras, which makes it even more impressive.

Thought you knew Lotr a little bit, but apparently there's a lot of assumptions there.

Thanks. I'm trying to stick to canon facts as much as I can. We all do I guess.

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#46 Posted by ComicGirl21 (1263 posts) - - Show Bio

@tourneymaster: The ring can corrupt Gandalf. Other maiar are vulnerable to others powers. So Gandalf could have done it but it would’ve clouded his mind. Same thing Sauron did to saruman would’ve happened to Gandalf. The witch king is unkillable except by certain weapons or people. Glamdring is not one of these weapons. In extended scene the witch king does battle Gandalf and Gandalf simply repels him from the higher levels of minas tirith. The other guy was only wrong about Gandalf being the strongest maiar.

Thanks. I'm the other... guy...? I guess. But yeah, Gandalf is the strongest maiar. Don't ask me, ask Tolkien. There are many quotes of Tolkien saying Gandalf as "the white" is the most powerful Maiar, on the face of Middle Earth, which would include Sauron. I can even recall him saying that in the context of Sauron specifically. He was talking via private letter what would happen if Gandalf and Sauron have contested over the Ring. Tolkien said that Gandalf without the Ring was more powerful than Sauron without the Ring, hinting that it's mostly because Sauron lost much of his power and form after being defeated. If you want to, I can dig through internet and find a proper quote from that letter. It's pretty known fact though.

Sauron is leagues above him, even being a threat to some valar.

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#47 Posted by anakon4 (438 posts) - - Show Bio

@anakon4: madacientist224 had it right with "the only "gods" in lotr would be the Valar, under eru illuvatar.." gods being in quotes aka not actual gods.

The only god in lotr is eru illuvatar. There are no other gods in lotr. Quit while you're behind.

And basically any maiar potentially killing everyone in middle earth is some nice head canon. Write a fan fic, it'll look less ridiculous.

Well it doesn't matter if they are actual gods or not. They are powerful beings who could destroy Arda if other Valar or Eru didn't interfere.

If you actually read the Silmarillion you would have know that Maiar are bound by promise to Eru that they will restrict their power and that they are similar to Valar a god like beings. The only difference is that they came later. But the are both Ainur so they are basically the same species. Not to mention that Maiar were helping to shape the world. Which means they are basically a planetary level in their purest form.

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#48 Posted by anakon4 (438 posts) - - Show Bio

@anakon4 said:

@comicgirl21: Anduril is a weapon from Second Age made by a dwarf. Glamdring, Orcrist and Sting are all weapons from the First Age made by Elves. Elves>/=Dwarves, First Age>Second Age.

You play too much LOTRO dude. It doesn't matter what age the sword was made in, what matters is the swords FEATS. Just because someone makes a weapon in the third age doesn't mean he can't enchant it so that it would be more powerful than some random first age dagger found in a burrow in the dust. And even if you were correct, Telchar forged Narsil in the First Age, actually, and he wasn't SOME dwarf but he was considered the BEST blacksmith in the entire Beleriand, which included elves, man and dwarves alike. In other words, Anduril being a First Age weapon made by combined efforts of finest dwarf and elven blacksmiths should be considered the most powerful even by your standards.

I haven't played that game in years. Not to mention that LOTRO actually get's weapon system right. The older means stronger. Ancient Elves were able to fight against Morgoth. Do you have any idea what could an army of 10, 000 Noldor from the Wars of Beleriand do in LotR era? They would decimate the entire Mordor by themselves.

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#49 Posted by noah_ouellette (3786 posts) - - Show Bio

@comicgirl21: Oh I had a post but it got deleted. Like before I posted it damnit. More sources state saurons the strongest. No point arguing Gandalf vs third age Sauron without ring. No physical form and Gandalf is tied to his physical form. Manwe made it so. Also Gandalf got captured by Saurons spirit sooooo??? Also there’s a source that claims Sauron would beat all five istari when they came to middle earth which is why they didn’t just confront him directly. Thanks for joining the supporters of lotr and the silmarrilion on this site. Not too many of us.

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#50 Posted by ComicGirl21 (1263 posts) - - Show Bio

@anakon4 said:
@comicgirl21 said:
@anakon4 said:

@comicgirl21: Anduril is a weapon from Second Age made by a dwarf. Glamdring, Orcrist and Sting are all weapons from the First Age made by Elves. Elves>/=Dwarves, First Age>Second Age.

You play too much LOTRO dude. It doesn't matter what age the sword was made in, what matters is the swords FEATS. Just because someone makes a weapon in the third age doesn't mean he can't enchant it so that it would be more powerful than some random first age dagger found in a burrow in the dust. And even if you were correct, Telchar forged Narsil in the First Age, actually, and he wasn't SOME dwarf but he was considered the BEST blacksmith in the entire Beleriand, which included elves, man and dwarves alike. In other words, Anduril being a First Age weapon made by combined efforts of finest dwarf and elven blacksmiths should be considered the most powerful even by your standards.

I haven't played that game in years.

Too bad! The game is as great as ever. It went through one heck of a renaissance a few years back, adding Beornings, High Elves and a lot of other character choices and in recent two years there's been massive content increase as well. Worth returning every time.

Not to mention that LOTRO actually get's weapon system right.

I wouldn't say anything wrong about LOTRO ever. To this day it remains one of the most iconics game of my life. Well next to legends such as Heroes III, Baldurs Gate 2 and a few more I guess. Also there's League of Legends which is a freakin drug.

The older means stronger. Ancient Elves were able to fight against Morgoth. Do you have any idea what could an army of 10, 000 Noldor from the Wars of Beleriand do in LotR era? They would decimate the entire Mordor by themselves.

Interesting. I wouldn't say it's the rule. I mean I totally get your point dont get me wrong. There is certainly a LOT of powerful artifacts from the first era and Narsil is one of them. But why do you believe third era is incapable of matching the first? There is a ton of characters who lived from the first era all the way to third after all, you'd think that by the third age they would gain a lot of experience and power and would make even more powerful stuff as well. Also the elves that marched into Beleriand were no doubt powerful as they wielded Valinor gear and had the "fire of undying trees in their eyes" and stuff, but who is more powerful honestly, Galadriel as she was when marching to Middle Earth in the first age, or the third age Galadriel who was feared by Sauron himself and had her own Kingdom? I think in some instances older is not better. It is an interesting theory tho.