Lord Starkiller runs the gauntlet (Legends)

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frozen

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#1 frozen  Moderator

(I expect there will be disagreement on gauntlet order, due to the vastly different opinions on Vader’s placement in EU. I’ve just ordered them according to the consensus)

Lord Starkiller

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Round 1 - TPM Obi Wan

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Round 2 - Darth Malgus

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Round 3 - ROTS Yoda

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Round 4 - Jedi ROTS Anakin

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Round 5 - Suit Vader (prime)

Round 6 - TFU 2 Sidious

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Rules

  • Everyone at their best
  • Starts 10 feet apart
  • Duel takes place outside Jedi temple
  • In character
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BreakOfDawn

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#2  Edited By BreakOfDawn

I know that you've noted that there will be disagreements, but that gauntlet is badly out of order. Anakin > Vader (by how much is debatable, but ROTS Anakin can and does possess the ability to tap into or wield the kind of power that made him an equal of Sidious), and Yoda > Vader. Malgus V.S Vader is debatable.

Regardless, he stops hard at Malgus. Might stop at DT Vader.

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RedSithDisciple

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Clears up to Vader, where things kind of go into a gray area. I personally think Vader would take it.

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frozen

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#4 frozen  Moderator

@breakofdawn:

Where do you rank Lord SK compared to his regular iteration?

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Eredin12

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Clears up to Vader, where things kind of go into a gray area. I personally think Vader would take it.

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SeventhMoon

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#6  Edited By SeventhMoon

The consensus now on Comicvine is that Anakin is above Yoda? In the EU? Has the fanbase really become that ignorant? That's just sad. I thought that one guy I destroyed immediately was an outlier on here. I thought Anakin was only rated that highly here in the Disney canon.

Galen stops at 3 and 6.

People saying Galen is weaker in the novels ignore context. He got stronger over the course of the story, which was the whole point of his training. He fairly bested Vader. The only argument (cope) that people use in regards to that fight is that he knew Vader's style. And? Vader knew his too. This version of Galen should vaguely upscale from the one that bested Vader.

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frozen

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#7 frozen  Moderator

@seventhmoon:

Anakin and Yoda are basically seen as interchangeable for EU. Due to the Stover novel and all the “most powerful Jedi” statements. This is generally the consensus.

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Eredin12

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#8  Edited By Eredin12

@seventhmoon: I agree with you on most things but Marek is not really stopping at ROTS Yoda. He fought far more powerful version of Sidious who had decades of growth fueled by a draining entire planet, was near equal to him, and even drove to desperation in their clash, despite the fact that he had to spend quite a bit of his energy beforehand to beat Vader and the imperial army while the Emperor was fresh.

Oh and nice to see you again!

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BreakOfDawn

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#9  Edited By BreakOfDawn
@frozen said:

@breakofdawn:

Where do you rank Lord SK compared to his regular iteration?

Hard to say because he lacks comparable feats. Logically, he's more powerful as he's now completely given himself over to the Dark Side. I'd put him around prime/DT Vader level, maybe a bit higher, maybe a bit lower (e.g. Dooku level).

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BreakOfDawn

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#10  Edited By BreakOfDawn

@seventhmoon:

The consensus now on Comicvine is that Anakin is above Yoda? In the EU? Has the fanbase really become that ignorant? That's just sad. I thought that one guy I destroyed immediately was an outlier on here. I thought Anakin was only rated that highly here in the Disney canon.

He's consistently pinned as on the level of Mace, Yoda and Sidious, even as a Jedi. The difference is restraint. KFV is Anakin having dropped the Jedi restraint and embraced his rage and anger, the kind he used to manhandle Dooku.

People saying Galen is weaker in the novels ignore context. He got stronger over the course of the story, which was the whole point of his training. He fairly bested Vader. The only argument (cope) that people use in regards to that fight is that he knew Vader's style. And? Vader knew his too. This version of Galen should vaguely upscale from the one that bested Vader.

I don't believe that anyone denies that he defeated Vader. It's TFU 2 SK V.S Vader that's disputed.

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SeventhMoon

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#11  Edited By SeventhMoon
@frozen said:

@seventhmoon:

Anakin and Yoda are basically seen as interchangeable for EU. Due to the Stover novel and all the “most powerful Jedi” statements. This is generally the consensus.

Ironically I'm a big supporter of the Stover novel and I don't think these arguments can be made at all, but it's whatever.

@eredin12 said:

@seventhmoon: I agree with you on most things but Marek is not really stopping at ROTS Yoda. He fought far more powerful version of Sidious, was near equal to him, and even drove to desperation in their clash, despite the fact that he had to spend quite a bit of his energy beforehand to beat Vader and the imperial army while the Emperor was fresh.

The thing about Galen Vs. Sidious is that he tapped into a state of oneness IIRC beyond his default stats, going off the novel. Does this Galen scale above that one somehow?

Generally, I imagined it as Oneness Galen > Yoda > Lord Starkiller > TFU1 Galen, with Lord Starkiller being vaguely above TFU1 Galen.

Granted, you could REALLY hype up him defeating Force Ghost Kenobi due to how strong those should supposedly be, but Idk.

Oh and nice to see you back!

Thanks.

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frozen

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#12 frozen  Moderator

@seventhmoon:

There are a lot of statements outside the novel too, from the film’s official BTS to other sources.

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Eredin12

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#13  Edited By Eredin12

@seventhmoon: Actually, no. As you can see here, he entered Oneness only at very end when he sensed Imperial soldiers about to gun down Rebels:

"No!" the apprentice cried, dropping his defenses to strike one last time at the Imperials. Energy surged through him. He felt as though a star had blazed to life in his chest. Driven by concern for his friends rather than himself, he embraced the Force completely, utterly, and was rewarded with strength that made his efforts with the dark side look like those of a child. His nerves were on fire. Streamers of light radiated from his skin. His bones glowed like radiant lava. He saw rather than felt the massive shock wave that consumed a large portion of what remained of the observation dome." - The Force Unleashed.

But him taking power of Emperor for 10 seconds, then powering through it all while continuing to take it, and then doing counter counterattack and clashing with desperation-fueled Emperor—all happened before that. It was normal TFU1 Galen, though at his peak in the game, that was on TFU Emperor's level. Granted, Marek was bit weaker in fight itself(though still on the same level) but again that is understandable when you factor in fact that the Emperor was fully fresh while Marek had to spend his energy on beating Vader and imperials before even reaching the Emperor. So it is more like TFU Sidious≈Peak TFU Galen>>>ROTS Yoda. End of the game TFU Galen is far above Yoda and this one is as you said vaguely more powerful

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RedSithDisciple

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@seventhmoon: Galen didn't enter oneness until the second before he let out the blast.

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SeventhMoon

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#15  Edited By SeventhMoon

@redsithdisciple: @eredin12: Yes, thank you both. Been a long time since I read the TFU 1 novel.

I agree then. He only stops at 6. Glad that downplay of him being below Vader and only winning due to circumstances is less common now. Always got annoyed by that.

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BreakOfDawn

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#16  Edited By BreakOfDawn

@seventhmoon: It's not "downplay". TFU 2 makes it quite clear that he's Vader level, as has the creator of the entire series on multiple occasions.

Yes, Galen won in TFU 1. In TFU 2, however, he and Vader are repeatedly shown to be evenly matched.

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Eredin12

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#17  Edited By Eredin12
@seventhmoon said:

@redsithdisciple: @eredin12: Yes, thank you both. Been a long time since I read the TFU 1 novel.

I agree then. He only stops at 6. Glad that downplay of him being below Vader and only winning due to circumstances is less common now. Always got annoyed by that.

No problem man, and likewise. There is still such downplay , unfortunately, but not as much as before. I would also recommend reading these great blogs by Kilbilly where he covers all kinds of usual lowballs of SK, including explaining all the context behind the fights Vader and Marek had in TFU and TFU2, and a lot more stuff people use to lowball him and ranks Galen in general and his feats:

https://comicvine.gamespot.com/forums/star-wars-universe-1943200/star-wars-misconceptions-the-force-unleashed-franc-1944208/

https://comicvine.gamespot.com/star-wars-universe/4015-57038/forums/how-powerful-is-starkiller-2240304/

So if you have time and if you wish of course, I would recommend reading it.

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Famousroman

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He'd lose to Yoda, properly, so that is where he stops.

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SeventhMoon

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#19  Edited By SeventhMoon

@breakofdawn: He's not really only Vader level if he beat him in a fair fight and did good against his significantly stronger master.

@eredin12 Will do. Those will be an interesting read and perhaps a memory refresher on anything I've potentially forgotten. I'll probably read them by tomorrow.

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BreakOfDawn

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@seventhmoon:

He's not really Vader level if he beat him in a fair fight

He defeated him in a good fight, then was matched by him blow for blow in the sequel. They're definitely around the same level.

and did good against his significantly stronger master.

True, but the same feat was a matter of him holding on for the time it took to take two steps, grab Sidious, then go into Oneness. I don't see this as well beyond the capabilities of Vader's power (note: he can't due to his cybernetics), especially given that Sidious' power was capped to prevent his body from burning out.

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buildhare

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Worse Starkiller already beat Vader, his upgrade seems way more potent than any growth for Vader between that time and ROTJ. Stops at Sidious.

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anderioan

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#22  Edited By anderioan

A ~20 year old Marek beat a prime Vader, a ~25 year old Vader-esque Marek will take it all the way to the top.

Stops at Sidious after a close fight, where Palpy shows his new apprentice that he still has more to learn, or will kill him if this fight takes place after Stalker took Luke as an apprentice to replace him with possibly the only person in the galaxy left alive with a potential higher than Galen's.

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RedSithDisciple

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Darthor

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Atrocious order but he gets stomped by Malgus

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deactivated-661447c2a6ff0

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@darthor said:

Atrocious order but he gets stomped by Malgus

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@breakofdawn:

Yeah but the clone probably wouldn't have been in the greatest condition prior to the fight with Vader anyway. It happens only a short while after he destroyed the salvation and survived impact with the ground.

And on top of that prior to his fight with Vader, he fought and annihilated a tower full of his own clones that the novel stated could have easily overpowered Vader if they turned on him. And to add to that (though I may be remembering this wrong) Vader was the one who set the clones against him in the first place. That would kinda imply Vader wasn't sure he could straight up beat him anyway.

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BreakOfDawn

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#27  Edited By BreakOfDawn

@mistermiracle34:

Yeah but the clone probably wouldn't have been in the greatest condition prior to the fight with Vader anyway. It happens only a short while after he destroyed the salvation and survived impact with the ground.

Noted, but the worst he suffered from that was being knocked unconscious and feeling like he'd been hit by a asteroid. No actual injuries (as in severe burns, lacerations, etc) are stated or recorded beyond the immediacy of him waking up. He's back to his usual levels shortly after, fighting through Imperials with relative ease and not suggesting any discomfort:

Starkiller's eyes jerked open. Where was he? All was dark around him. He smelled smoke and his body felt as though it had been hit by an asteroid. The last thing he remembered was tightening the Force shield around him and destroying the Salvation so it wouldn’t kill Juno. He was somewhere on Kamino, then. But his mind remained full of strange images and feelings that he had never experienced before.

-

Starkiller needed to get through the same defenses as the Rebels in order to save Juno. He scanned the controls in front of him, looking for maps or hidden routes that he could access. There were maintenance hatches spaced irregularly around the base of the dome, but he didn’t have the codes required to open them. He didn’t let that bother him. There were alternatives to codes. Picking the closest hangar hatch, he memorized the way there, activated his lightsabers, and left the control room. The memory of Kashyyyk stayed with him as he fought his way through the Imperials, occasionally dodging the odd Rebel who thought he was on the Imperials’ side.

And on top of that prior to his fight with Vader, he fought and annihilated a tower full of his own clones that the novel stated could have easily overpowered Vader if they turned on him.

Starkiller believes that, it doesn't make it true. The clones notably vary in strength and ability:

And yet … Confidence, determination, intelligence, and cunning—combined with physical strength and agility—the clones possessed every attribute he did, in greater or lesser degrees.

Yet he's notably faster than the first and second waves, and is able to easily kill them one on one:

It quickly became apparent that the first to rush in were the wildest and weakest both. In their eagerness to do battle, they didn’t stop to plan their strategies. What they possessed in speed, they lacked in forethought. He was armed and they were not, so for being headstrong beyond all reason these brutish beings paid the ultimate price. The next wave either learned from the fate of the first or had enough innate caution to stand back a moment and observe the way he fought. They came at him from all sides, using telekinesis to try to knock him off balance on the blood-slicked floor. He was too fast for them, leaping over their heads and attacking from behind, slashing at their overdeveloped shoulders and hunched backs without remorse.

This is noteworthy, since Vader was later keeping pace with SK blow for blow:

Finally, Starkiller saw an opportunity. They were exchanging rapid blows along the edge of the buckled platform, blades swinging so fast they were visible only as blurs.

The clones also didn't all attack him. They attacked each other, too:

Red-eyed and hate-filled, they fought each other, too, and the ones who had come before. There were no allies, just a sea of individuals.

And to add to that (though I may be remembering this wrong) Vader was the one who set the clones against him in the first place. That would kinda imply Vader wasn't sure he could straight up beat him anyway.

Actually, the reason he did so was to test SK once again, during which SK realises that all of the clones are inferior to himself. He's also doing it to remind him that he's not Galen, and that he must abandon his memories of that:

“Why me?” he asked the silent cloning tower.

“Search your feelings,” Vader said, stepping into view at the very top of the tower, lightsaber held tightly in his right hand. “The answer lies within you.” Starkiller stared up at his former Master. What did he have that none of the other clones did?

He remembered:

“How long this time?”

“Thirteen days. Impressive.”

And he remembered:

“The Force gives me all I need.”

“The Force?”

“The dark side, I mean.”

Slowly a dark understanding began to form. All the duels, all the tests, all the torturous mind games, had been to ensure his survival against every opponent—bar one. His Master. In a sense, they were still playing out the first time they had faced each other in combat.

Every clone is unstable and incomplete, and whilst they have a measure of Galen's power, they also lack his mastery and control over his abilities, which is made more apparent by how SK's Force Wave is capable of killing numerous clones of himself.

Since I know someone will bring it up, SK is stated to be exhausted right after the Force Wave. However, he is also noted to be regaining his strength, whereby he has a short break before fighting Vader in which to collect himself and prepare:

He maintained a defensive pose, breathing rhythmically and deeply, regaining his strength. The tips of his lightsabers shook. He had never felt so exhausted, at every level of his being. He felt simultaneously cleansed and poisoned.

Likewise, this exhaustion is mental, spiritual and physical, two of which the Force can cure whilst the second can be overcome (as he does shortly afterwards, focusing upon a single goal and allowing that to drive him through his existential crisis):

Covered in blood—the blood of his fellow clones—and knowing Juno was close, he fought his former Master with single-minded focus.

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Supreme101

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Could stop at Anakin if youre a believer in him being stronger than vader

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MasterBuster666

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Stops at 6 or 4.

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ExiledUhu

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Loses to Yoda, Anakin, Vader and Sidious.

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Cheth

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@quarsh said:
@darthor said:

Atrocious order but he gets stomped by Malgus

This but while the order is bad, everyone above Malgus here beats SK as well

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Eredin12

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#33  Edited By Eredin12
@supreme101 said:

Could stop at Anakin if youre a believer in him being stronger than vader

I mean Vader has both most and most recent confirmations of being stronger and on top of that Marek matched TFU Sidious who is also far above Anakin.

@masterbuster666 said:

Stops at 6 or 4.

Not 4 though, he ragdolled Vader who is confirmed to be superior to Anakin and he matched Sidious who is light years better than Anakin.

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BreakOfDawn

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@darthor said:

Atrocious order but he gets stomped by Malgus

I highly doubt Malgus stomps, but he does wins, yes.

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Supreme101

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#35  Edited By Supreme101

@breakofdawn: Was in the middle of responding in the Mace vs Starkiller but that thread got deleted. sadly

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SeventhMoon

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#36  Edited By SeventhMoon

Bumping this thread because I re-read TFU after a very long time and my opinion on Galen as a whole has changed entirely.

Novel Galen is definitely above his video game counterparts, but there is context here and it affects how I rate Lord Starkiller.

To go over some debunks though, Galen is said by fans to be "more subdued" in the novels, but this is only in the early stages. He gets stronger with each fight, even getting stronger during the missions. He got stronger in the middle of fighting Kota and mid-diffed him:

The apprentice pressed harder, feeling victory and the attainment of his full power approaching. - The Force Unleashed: Chapter 3, Page 33

Against Kazdan, his first strike was barely blocked and singed Galen's arm, but that's it. Galen got ahold of himself and was able to defend his saber strikes off just fine after that. He couldn't penetrate his defenses though in just saber combat due to Kazdan's unorthodox and extreme fighting style of having a pike lightsaber with mechanical limbs that could utilize it beyond normal levels, along with providing him with great mobility. But the moment Galen used the force, Kazdan was immediately overwhelmed and started getting fried with lightning, only lasting longer once the fake council started to attack him (to which he still defeated easily btw):

Outside his droid golem shell, however, Paratus was more vulnerable to Sith lightning. What he couldn’t absorb into the junk metal burned him and left him writhing in pain. The apprentice sent bolt after bolt hurtling into the tiny figure. It almost seemed that the fight would be over before it had really begun.

Then something struck him from behind, breaking his concentration and knocking his lightsaber from his hand. He turned, ducking robotic limbs and a sudden swipe from the light-pike. The mannequin of Plo Koon had risen from its chair and attacked him, holding a vibroblade in a crude approximation of the long-dead Jedi Master’s renowned lightsaber style. - The Force Unleashed: Chapter 6 , Page 56

Galen also said he could've one-shotted that entire fake Jedi Temple with a force push if he wanted:

AS THEY REACHED FOR ORBIT, he watched the Temple retreat behind him until the outline of its ludicrous grandeur was barely discernible among the surrounding junk hills. He could have knocked the ridiculous toy castle down around Kazdan’s ears with one Force push. - The Force Unleashed: Chapter 6 , Page 57

His fight against Shaak Ti was his hardest one, but she had the homefield advantage of having the Sarlacc on her side and using it to attack him:

The apprentice cutoff teeth and threw the fragments at his adversary’s head. In return she took tighter control of the beast’s distributed intelligence and sent its food-seeking tentacles flailing for him. - The Force Unleashed: Chapter 8, Page 71

Yes, he used pieces of its teeth as objects to fling at her, but that's no different from using the environment to your advantage. Shaak Ti actually had another sentient being under her control attacking him, which is clearly more significant.

People like to say Galen only beat her via luck, but they ignore the context of the whole scene. Both were getting tired and Shaak Ti was pressed hard enough to try one final desperate and reckless assault to kill him, which he barely survived by raising his blade at the perfect moment to kill her on instinct, without thought, which is why he said he is lucky:

On her last three words, she struck three blows that each partially found their mark. The first burned a sizzling line down the apprentice’s left shoulder. The second scored diagonally across his chest. The third would have skewered his right eye had he not held her back at the last minute with a desperate telekinetic block that stopped her lightsaber barely a millimeter from his skin. He could feel his eyelashes and eyebrows burning. The right side of his sight was entirely blue. She gasped and staggered backward. Her lightsaber and her gaze dropped. A full half meter of red blade emerged from her stomach, then the rest came free with a hiss. He backed away, shocked by how close he had come to death and how lucky he had been to defeat her. He had raised his lightsaber by reflex. She had, in the desperation of her final assault, practically thrown herself on the blade. Perhaps she had meant for the two of them to defeat each other at the same time. - The Force Unleashed: Chapter 8, Page 72

He barely won, but it was fair and square. He just did it on instinct. And hell, if Shaak Ti didn't have that Sarlacc, he could've potentially won a bit earlier and with slightly less difficulty.

After Galen's revival due to his reconstruction, he becomes more powerful than he ever has before, putting him above the version of him that barely defeated Shaak Ti:

He was clad in an entirely new outfit, one not dissimilar to his Master’s, with black leather overlaying thin sheaths of armor, heavy gloves and boots, and a high collar. Nearby, over the shoulder of one of the droid surgeons, was a hooded black cape with a red lining, presumably his also.

He flexed his fingers, feeling stronger and different somehow. The pain was completely gone. He felt better than he ever had before, as though he had spent months in a bacta tank. - The Force Unleashed: Chapter 11, Page 87-88

After his fight with the boss Shadow Guard, he's stated to have gotten stronger yet again when fighting another group of enemies:

"Are you sure you want to do this?” he asked his gathered foes. The answer came in the form of blasterfire from the troopers, a barrage from the Uggernaughts, and a combined charge from the two assassins. He whirled and leapt, filling the air with reflected energy. All thought ceased; his connection to the Force became deeper than it ever had been before. He moved with grace and pure reflex, ducking under saber-staff blows, hurling troopers bodily at their Ugnaught allies, tossing walkers off the dock, and even raining supplies from one of the balloons above. - The Force Unleashed: Chapter 15, Page 110

He is stated to have not only improved in terms of pure power, but also skill:

The Imperial Guard lasted barely as long, felled with four swift lightsaber strokes then shocked with lightning as he dropped backward to the ground. The apprentice nodded, satisfied that his skills had improved since Nar Shaddaa. - The Force Unleashed: Chapter 19, Page 132

So as you can see, Galen's feats are not only not shit and not really worse compared to the games (especially that statement of him being able to one-shot that False Jedi Temple with a single force push if he wanted), but he gets stronger constantly more and more. By the end of the Cloud City arc, he's well above Shaak Ti, who is a Council Master.

Skipping ahead to the Vader fight, people downplay Galen by saying he knew Vader's still via their training sessions, but Vader knew his too for the same reasons, so an advantage for either due to this is negated.

People also mention that Galen barely was able to defend against Vader's strikes, with his knees starting to buckle from the force, but this is lacking context. Galen thought Vader's full might was at a similar level to what he had faced during his training sessions with him, leading him to get overconfident and thus get caught off guard once Vader revealed he was holding back during those training sessions by hitting MUCH harder than Galen ever expected from him. After the opening blows, he recovered and immediately started pressing Vader, with Vader barely blocking his strikes:

The apprentice knew exactly what to expect. They had dueled many times before. He had learned how to fight at the hands of the man in the black suit—the man whose face had been forever hidden from him. He knew the intimacies of his refined version of Djem So, a fighting style that incorporated elements of Ataru, Soresu, and Makashi. He had fended off many wild, slashing attacks that would have overwhelmed even an extraordinary Jedi Knight. He had borne the brunt of many psychological battles. He thought he was ready—and so the sheer severity of the opening blow took him by surprise. A simple double stroke, up and then down, it contained enough power to jar his wrists and shoulders and very nearly disarm him completely. The collision of their lightsabers was blinding. He staggered backward and found himself at the center of a telekinetic storm. His Master seized on his momentary weakness and hurled missiles at him from all sides, hoping to keep him off his guard. For a moment, it worked.

Then the apprentice straightened and, with a sweep of his left arm, blew the missiles away. He blocked a savage slash that would have cut him in two and another that would have lifted his head clean from his shoulders. Ducking low, he stabbed for his Master’s belly then flicked the tip of his lightsaber upward, hoping to catch the chin of Darth Vader’s helmet and spear him through the throat. The red lightsaber blocked the blow, but only barely. They parted for a moment to assess the brief exchange and circled each other warily. - The Force Unleashed: Chapter 38, Page 269

And later we see him fighting Vader in saber combat just fine, with him using the Dark Side without giving into it and letting it control and consume him:

Their lightsabers danced, blurring and sweeping and shedding sparks in a way that would have been beautiful had their intent not been so deadly. The apprentice felt the wild, joyous energies of the dark side flowing through him and he resisted its call, seeking a better way to finish the job. - The Force Unleashed: Chapter 38, Page 270

Galen up to this point has been fighting equally with Vader. He has obtained a measure of balance, as he is using both the Light and Dark Side of the force, though primarily the Dark Side still, just not giving into it and letting it control him.

Some say that Galen is only equaling Vader here due to his psychological tactics meant to break Vader's concentration, but we see that that blatantly fails here, as it only fuels Vader's anger, making him stronger without breaking his concentration, which started to put Galen on his backfoot again:

“I understand you now,” he said, still trying to goad his former Master into breaking his concentration. “You killed my father and kidnapped me from Kashyyyk, not just to be your apprentice, but to be a son to you. Was that how your father treated you?” The intensity of Darth Vader’s attack redoubled. “I have no father.” The apprentice fell back under the rain of blows. The sizzling of fabric and a faint stink of burning skin told him that at least two of Darth Vader’s misses had been horribly near, but he felt no pain. He, on the other hand, had definitely struck a nerve. - The Force Unleashed: Chapter 38, Page 270

However, there's a major turning point in the fight that increases Galen's power massively. He obtains further balance that gives him a power increase and further clarity of mind. He understands that Sidious is behind all of his and Vader's suffering. He understands that Vader is just a broken slave that didn't have the will to rebel like him. His hatred turned to pity. He had a new mindset in general. He was calmer. He still had anger, but he controlled it even better to make sure his mind was clear. It clearly states that this new state gave him new power/strength. It wasn't him simply using the Light Side over the Dark, as he blatantly used Sith Lightning here against Vader still. He achieved actual balance, which increased his strength massively. He proceeded to send Vader flying with a force blast, casually dominate him in saber combat while talking down to him, then when getting a bit angry, struck three blows, with two hitting Vader and injuring him. Galen then breaks through his force barrier and twists Vader's lightsaber out of his hand and throws away, followed up by him casually lifting him up and pelting all objects in the surrounding area at him like missiles, only to crush him with the giant engines on the ceiling like in the 7th Gen version of the game:

Glancing over Darth Vader’s shoulder, he saw the Emperor watching the duel, his face screwed up in malevolent delight. And the apprentice understood. A better way to kill … Not out of hatred. Whatever lay beneath that black mask, it wasn’t beauty or happiness. Only ugliness and pain would hide itself away for so long. Hatred would not be enough to turn the tables on Darth Vader. Reaching out with his left hand, he blasted his Master with Sith lightning. That broke the momentum of the furious onslaught, enabling him to stand and catch his breath. “I don’t need to hate you in order to beat you,” he gasped. “That’s something I will teach you now.”

“You can teach me nothing,” Darth Vader’s leaden voice intoned. One black glove clenched, and for a moment the apprentice’s throat closed tight. He beat back the telekinetic attack with one of his own, shoving his Master in the chest with the force of a small explosion, throwing Darth Vader backward across the room. For all his size and occasional clumsiness, the Dark Lord was sure on his feet. He landed upright and launched himself back into the fray. “I don’t hate you,” the apprentice went on, blocking him blow for blow. “I pity you.” With a new strength of his own, he forced Darth Vader onto his back foot. “You destroyed who I was and made me as I am now, but this wasn’t your idea. It was the Emperor’s, and it’s what he’s already done to you.” A strip of Darth Vader’s cape fluttered away, smoking. The two came closer together until they were face-to-mask. The apprentice stared directly into the black eye guards of his former Master. “You are his creature just as I was yours—but you’ve never had the strength to rebel. That’s why I pity you. I will no longer serve a monster, and if I have my way I’ll make sure you don’t, either.”

Vader tried to pull away, but the apprentice followed him, keeping him on the back foot. “I will kill you,” he said, “to set you free.” The lightsabers flashed again—and it was the apprentice who found the chink in the armor that both of them had been waiting for. Vader’s lightsaber moved too slowly to block a blow to his chest, allowing the apprentice’s blade to slash deeply across his armored throat. Vader staggered backward, gloved hand upraised to the smoking wound. - The Force Unleashed: Chapter 38, Page 270 - 271

Anger flared. He lunged forward. His former Master barely blocked the blow. A second scored a deep wound across his black-clad shoulder. A third stabbed deep into his thigh. Darth Vader reeled backward, servos whining in his injured limbs and lightsaber shaking. The apprentice gripped his lightsaber in both hands and held himself back. Anger was familiar and powerful; it also clouded his eyes when he most needed to see clearly. Vader prepared for combat again. His power over the apprentice, however, was gone. His lightsaber went skittering and sparking across the floor, twisted out of his grip by telekinesis. The Force wrenched him into the air, as he had once lifted the apprentice’s father, and a barrage of missiles struck at him with increasing strength. He raised his gloved hands to defend himself, but the battery continued until, with a crash, the apprentice ripped the energy field generator in the center of the room right out of the floor and hurled it at his former Master. The generator exploded with greater force than he had expected, throwing him and everyone else to the floor. The transparisteel dome shattered. Debris rained everywhere. The sound of the explosion rang in his ears for an unnaturally long time afterward. He was the first to his feet, striding across the rubble to where Darth Vader lay face-forward, gravely wounded and stripped of his armor in places. - The Force Unleashed: Chapter 38, Page 272

Against Sidious, he took his lightning head on and was able to defend against it while walking towards him, closing the distance until he reached Sidious and grabbed his shoulders, with the lightning engulfing both of them at point-blank range, causing extreme pain to both of them, with Sidious cocking his head back to scream in anguish. It also says that both of them are desperate in their struggle against each other, meaning Sidious was clearly serious here:

He wanted to recoil from the source, to curl into a ball and let unconsciousness take the pain away, but somehow he stayed standing, seeing the world through a crackling blue light, and even took a step toward the Emperor.

Another staggering, painful step and the Emperor was within the apprentice’s reach. With shaking fingers, he took the old man’s bony shoulders in his hands and gripped them tight. The Sith lightning spread to engulf the two of them, fueled by both their desperations. The Emperor tipped back his head and howled in lascivious pain. Darkness threatened to envelop the apprentice’s mind, but he clutched to consciousness with feverish will. He had to see this through. He had to. - The Force Unleashed: Chapter 38, Page 275

This proves that Galen is either equal to or relative to Sidious at the very least, backed up by how easily he stomped and ragdolled Vader.

But after this, Galen sees that Stormtroopers are about to shoot the fleeing rebels, and so he goes even further, entering Oneness, which made him even more powerful, meaning he is solidly above Sidious now. The reason he died is because he DROPPED his defenses against Sidious, on top of creating an explosion to engulf the general area to kill the Stormtroopers about to shoot down the fleeing rebels, as opposed to directing all of his power directly at Sidious:

A squadron of stormtroopers ran into the room, led by a limping Darth Vader. They raised their blasters to gun down the Rebels as they fled up the Rogue Shadow’s ramp. “No!” the apprentice cried, dropping his defenses to strike one last time at the Imperials. Energy surged through him. He felt as though a star had blazed to life in his chest. Driven by concern for his friends rather than himself, he embraced the Force completely, utterly, and was rewarded with strength that made his efforts with the dark side look like those of a child. His nerves were on fire. Streamers of light radiated from his skin. His bones glowed like radiant lava. He saw rather than felt the massive shock wave that consumed a large portion of what remained of the observation dome. A glowing bubble of fire tore the stormtroopers to shreds and engulfed Vader and the Emperor. Shrapnel filled the air like dust caught in the beam of the Death Star’s powerful laser. - The Force Unleashed: Chapter 38, Page 275f

So Galen only died due to dropping his defenses against Sidious and creating an explosion that engulfed an entire area, with him being at ground zero. If he directed that attack at Sidious instead, he would've certainly died.

But this leads to me to having a wildly different opinion of Lord Starkiller. For one, he only exists in the game version of TFU, so scaling him to his novel self is already iffy. And the novel is what gives us all of this context that makes Galen more impressive than his game self, so this matters. But even if we did scale him to his novel self, he did not achieve balance. He was still conflicted massively, killing Vader and then hesitatingly striking Sidious, only to get two-shotted because he never received that true balanced state. Lord Starkiller at best only scales vaguely above the Galen that didn't achieve balance and was struggling against, but overall a bit above Vader going by both the context in the novel and Dark Side ending.

Under this scaling interpretation, I see him likely stopping at Yoda. Nothing suggests he's anywhere near Sidious. He's at best, again, just vaguely above the Galen that got two-shotted by Sidious. And while that Sidious is above the one Yoda fought, I don't think anyone here thinks that Sidious would stomp RoTS Yoda, let alone two-shot him. So I'd say he only loses to Yoda and of course Sidious.

Another scaling avenue is comparing Lord Starkiller to Clone Starkiller, as Clone Starkiller is massively unbalanced and a mentally unhinged simp that uses the power of blind rage. Clone Starkiller fought an army of his clones that were stated to be able to easily overwhelm Vader if they turned on him, which tired him out massively. Despite that, he still won against them and Vader. This is very impressive and should make him probably relative to RoTS Yoda. Could go either way maybe. Should still lose to a TFU-Era Sidious though still.

And before people try to scale Clone Starkiller above TFU Galen, no. One of these statements is from his VA, not a writer, so it's irrelevant. The other one is a guy recalling what the writer of the TFU novels supposedly said. That's more iffy, as he could've recalled it incorrectly, adding something, etc. Not as reliable as coming from the man himself. And even then, it's contradictory to the source material if you say he's above balanced Galen. At best, if the guy's recollection of what the writer of the novels said is accurate, it'd logically refer to a non-balanced version of Galen earlier on.

TLDR: Lord Starkiller, if we scale him to his Dark Side ending self, should definitely stop at Yoda, defeating everyone else on the gauntlet aside from Sidious. But if we scale him to the TFU2 clone, he could have a shot at beating Yoda maybe, but stops at Sidious still.

@eredin12 Curious on your thoughts here.

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Goes up to Sidious

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@seventhmoon:

And while that Sidious is above the one Yoda fought, I don't think anyone here thinks that Sidious would stomp RoTS Yoda, let alone two-shot him. So I'd say he only loses to Yoda and of course Sidious.

To address this part, there's in fact more than enough evidence that this Sidious is stomp gaps above Yoda. For starters he undergoes 17 years of unhindered growth, coupled with him constantly draining Byss's populace (in at least the millions) from as early as right after ROTS.

"Almost mindless under the oppression of the Emperor's dark side influence, the people of Byss find their life energies constantly leeched off during the Emperor's vile machinations. Throughout the worlds submissive to the Empire, Byss is renowned as a paradise, whose siren call multitudes to willingly apply for emigration to its shores. Once there, wrapped in the power of the dark side, the immigrants become completely submissive, their life energy forever enslaved to the mind that would devour a galaxy."

- Byss and the Deep Core

Evasive Action: Recruitment
Evasive Action: Recruitment

"Years ago, Emperor Palpatine chose Byss as his private retreat, and Imperial architects and engineers were commissioned to build him an opulent palace. Several million humans were allowed to emigrate to the world, where the Emperor and his adepts used the dark side to feed off their life energies. The planet's population eventually reached almost 20 billion, and all outgoing communications were censored by security agents."

- The Complete Star Wars Encylopedia

So it's safe to say he grows massively in power between ROTS and TFU.

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If I recall correctly from the interviews, in this hypothetical, Lord Starkiller has taken his preeminent potential to the utmost through the dark side of the Force, and emerged the most powerful Sith in galactic history. While elite combatants such as Obi-Wan Kenobi and Darth Malgus could hold their own, they would inevitably go down. Darth Vader, with his history relative to this character, is destined to fall, despite his greater experience. Anakin Skywalker represents a fresh adversary with similar strength, skill, and youth compared to the Sith Lord, though he's not in the end his equal. Skywalker could still win, because he has earned his unrivaled reputation through impossible heroics time and again -- he's the best of the Jedi Order; he doesn't necessarily need to be stronger to win. Opponents such as Grand Master Yoda and Emperor Palpatine likewise aren't as powerful outright as Lord Starkiller, but they are comparable, and compensate in wisdom and experience -- these aren't guaranteed victories.

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Eredin12

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#40  Edited By Eredin12

@seventhmoon: Let me first say a great breakdown about all of those fights Galen had.

Novel Galen is definitely above his video game counterparts, but there is context here and it affects how I rate Lord Starkiller. But this leads to me to having a wildly different opinion of Lord Starkiller. For one, he only exists in the game version of TFU, so scaling him to his novel self is already iffy.

I have to disagree with this, at least as far as the canon game ending(light side) is concerned. I look at it as one canon Starkiller. After all, there is only one EU continuity, only one universe, to which both game and novel are canon. The novel simply provides context for a lot of what takes place in the game, since a lot of that takes place in the game is gameplay, but the novel lets us know what actually happened there. For example, the true Light Side ending shows Galen matching Sidious and walking through his lightning (which Yoda could not do in ROTS, against much weaker Sidious)

No Caption Provided
No Caption Provided

but the novel then also reveals to us that both of them were desperate there, which game itself, of course, cannot do as it lacks internal perspective the novel provides, and novel also gives us details like that SK lowered his defenses when he did that blast to save Rebels, which again the game cannot really provide us as it lacks the internal perspective the novel has. Game and novel complement each other like that.

And I definitely agree that feats in novel are not any worse than in the game. In-game, SK overpowers engines of Star Destroyer, but in novel he spreads his lightning across the planet, shakes the planet, destroys structures that reach space etc. Feats are pretty comparable. But you can use feats from both games and novels for SK, it is the same character in the end, in one single continuity.

He was still conflicted massively, killing Vader and then hesitatingly striking Sidious, only to get two-shotted because he never received that true balanced state. Lord Starkiller at best only scales vaguely above the Galen that didn't achieve balance and was struggling against, but overall a bit above Vader going by both the context in the novel and Dark Side ending.

Well Galen ragdolled Vader as you said

No Caption Provided
No Caption Provided

Galen achieved balance in both novel/game because the light side ending is only a canonical ending. Normally, Dark Side ending is not canonical and usable. That said, even though Lord SK is non canon and Galen who fell to dark side did not have same scaling as his light side self who matched Sidious, Lord SK still grew a lot and was able to casually ragdoll and destroy Force Ghost Kenobi, who is much more powerful than his living self that fought Vader, so I would say he is at least as powerful as Light Side Galen. Also, in regards to SK clone, he is noted to be even more powerful than (canon) Light Side Galen that drove Sidious to desperation as well.

I don't think anyone here thinks that Sidious would stomp RoTS Yoda, let alone two-shot him. So I'd say he only loses to Yoda and of course Sidious.

TFU Sidious is indeed a stomps gap above Yoda. Redsith has already covered that, he had 2 full decades of growth powered by draining the entire planet during that time. So all in all It is safe to say Lord SK would have no issues at all with Yoda.

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Probably stops at Yoda but it’s debatable he’d get to Sidious, there’s no way he clears tho imo.

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#43  Edited By SeventhMoon

@eredin12:I have to disagree with this, at least as far as the canon game ending(light side) is concerned. I look at it as one canon Starkiller.

I can get behind this. The reason I separated them was in response to the people that indeed do separate them and try to make out that novel Galen isn't nearly as impressive. It's fine to consider them one, but if you did have to separate them, I believe context makes novel Galen superior, that's all. But yeah, this was more of a counter to those people.

After all, there is only one EU continuity, only one universe

I would like to clarify that yes, the EU generally has only one overarching continuity, but there are different sub-canons in it that contradict each other, allowing you to choose which is canon over the others subjectively. The Clone Wars, for instance, rectons several EU things. Chris Avellone's version of KOTOR, as seen in KOTOR 2 is entirely contradictory to Drew Karpyshyn's version of KOTOR that takes an entirely different story route via the Revan Novel and SWTOR. Two very different completely incompatible sequels to KOTOR 1 that build off it very differently. You can just choose which takes precedence over the other. Then of course parts of the Clone Wars contradict the Stover RoTS novelization. There's plenty of examples. I'm not bringing this up to really counter your claim on the TFU versions being considered generally the same, as I am fine with that. I just felt like mentioning this in general.

Lord SK still grew a lot and was able to casually ragdoll and destroy Force Ghost Kenobi, who is much more powerful than his living self that fought Vader, so I would say he is at least as powerful as Light Side Galen.

I understand that he is very powerful, but he definitely shouldn't scale to the truly balanced Galen, who equaled Sidious, let alone Oneness Galen. Remember that Sidious tells Lord Starkiller that "You could've been my successor, my equal", meaning that he doesn't even have the potential anymore to equal Sidious, let alone surpass him.

Also, in regards to SK clone, he is noted to be even more powerful than (canon) Light Side Galen that drove Sidious to desperation as well.

Like I mentioned in my last post, the only statements I've seen on this are from his VA, so no real authority, and another recalling what the author of the novels said in a longer statement, which is more iffy and prone to errors compared to the author himself directly telling us.

The problem I have with the SK clone is that he's an incomplete clone with mental issues, full of rage and unbalanced emotions, etc. He's very powerful and way above Vader, but him being stronger than Galen defeats the whole narrative of him becoming balanced strengthening him. Clone Starkiller isn't even just Galen but dark side, but a mentally unstable one that has simp issues. It doesn't make sense for him to be above the Galen that could equal Sidious.

Regardless though, even if he is, that makes Lord Starkiller unable to be scaled, since he's hard-capped below Sidious. Though, even if Clone Starkiller is above Galen, he shouldn't be above his Oneness self. That's too ridiculous to actually be the case. He himself can't even enter Oneness either.

Furthermore, I know the dark side ending of TFU2 isn't canon, but it can be used in the sense of it being an alternate possibility that could have happened. And with that, a more perfected Starkiller Clone wasn't able to immediately defeat a Leia that had trained for even less time than Luke, as she only started training after his death in Empire Strikes Back. Yet she was still able to last against the superior Starkiller Clone, despite her clear inferiority, and even broke his force barrier once with a push. I really can't see Leia doing this to Sidious or Galen. And this Clone Starkiller is very serious and seems to be trying against her.

@redsithdisciple said:

@seventhmoon:

And while that Sidious is above the one Yoda fought, I don't think anyone here thinks that Sidious would stomp RoTS Yoda, let alone two-shot him. So I'd say he only loses to Yoda and of course Sidious.

To address this part, there's in fact more than enough evidence that this Sidious is stomp gaps above Yoda. For starters he undergoes 17 years of unhindered growth, coupled with him constantly draining Byss's populace (in at least the millions) from as early as right after ROTS.

"Almost mindless under the oppression of the Emperor's dark side influence, the people of Byss find their life energies constantly leeched off during the Emperor's vile machinations. Throughout the worlds submissive to the Empire, Byss is renowned as a paradise, whose siren call multitudes to willingly apply for emigration to its shores. Once there, wrapped in the power of the dark side, the immigrants become completely submissive, their life energy forever enslaved to the mind that would devour a galaxy."

- Byss and the Deep Core

Evasive Action: Recruitment
Evasive Action: Recruitment

"Years ago, Emperor Palpatine chose Byss as his private retreat, and Imperial architects and engineers were commissioned to build him an opulent palace. Several million humans were allowed to emigrate to the world, where the Emperor and his adepts used the dark side to feed off their life energies. The planet's population eventually reached almost 20 billion, and all outgoing communications were censored by security agents."

- The Complete Star Wars Encylopedia

So it's safe to say he grows massively in power between ROTS and TFU.

Thanks for telling me of this. But isn't this unquantifiable? It's a power increase, but he's draining a population of normal people, aka massively sub-padawan level to an unfathomable degree. It's proof he's getting stronger, but by how much isn't really clear I don't think.

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@seventhmoon:

Thanks for telling me of this. But isn't this unquantifiable? It's a power increase, but he's draining a population of normal people, aka massively sub-padawan level to an unfathomable degree. It's proof he's getting stronger, but by how much isn't really clear I don't think.

I mean, 17 years of draining millions practically 24/7 would increase your power by a large amount, even if we can't quantify it exactly, not to mention his outside growth as well.

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#45  Edited By Eredin12

@seventhmoon:

I can get behind this. The reason I separated them was in response to the people that indeed do separate them and try to make out that novel Galen isn't nearly as impressive. It's fine to consider them one, but if you did have to separate them, I believe context makes novel Galen superior, that's all. But yeah, this was more of a counter to those people.

Well I always thoguht that people who think Galen is weaker in the novel are ones that do not know much about novel. Such people are most common on YouTube and TikTok, and almost all of them also say something like " Galen was said to be only Obi-Wan level in the novel" even though that of course never happened. But yea game and novel complement each other, to me there is only one canon version

I would like to clarify that yes, the EU generally has only one overarching continuity, but there are different sub-canons in it that contradict each other, allowing you to choose which is canon over the others subjectively. The Clone Wars, for instance, rectons several EU things. Chris Avellone's version of KOTOR, as seen in KOTOR 2 is entirely contradictory to Drew Karpyshyn's version of KOTOR that takes an entirely different story route via the Revan Novel and SWTOR. Two very different completely incompatible sequels to KOTOR 1 that build off it very differently. You can just choose which takes precedence over the other. Then of course parts of the Clone Wars contradict the Stover RoTS novelization. There's plenty of examples. I'm not bringing this up to really counter your claim on the TFU versions being considered generally the same, as I am fine with that. I just felt like mentioning this in general.

Yea, I agree with this.

I understand that he is very powerful, but he definitely shouldn't scale to the truly balanced Galen, who equaled Sidious, let alone Oneness Galen. Remember that Sidious tells Lord Starkiller that "You could've been my successor, my equal", meaning that he doesn't even have the potential anymore to equal Sidious, let alone surpass him.

Well we know that Galen had the potential to be stronger than Sidious, so Sidious was likely being arrogant there rather than truthful. That said, I agree that Lord SK is harder to scale than Glaen/clone SK, but given that he could wreck Force Ghost Kenobi who is more powerful than ANH Vader could even imagine, and same Vader is already more powerful than Yoda, it is safe to say that he will not have issues with him either.

Like I mentioned in my last post, the only statements I've seen on this are from his VA, so no real authority, and another recalling what the author of the novels said in a longer statement, which is more iffy and prone to errors compared to the author himself directly telling us.

Actually, it was a direct quote from the author himself, word for word:

The Force Unleashed was one of the biggest games of 2008, and its magic touch extended to bookshelves when Sean Williams' novelization hit #1 on the New York Times bestseller list. So how do you top a blockbuster? Williams says it's all about Starkiller this time around.

"Bringing Starkiller back reinvigorates a story that probably couldn't have been developed much further," he says, speaking of LucasArts' decision to bring back the protagonist of the original game after what appeared to be his ultimate end. "Once I found out that Starkiller was coming back stronger, deadlier, and with more to lose than before, I knew I had to write it. His journey has become much more interesting."

-- Insider 120

SK used rage to fight, but he could control it, he did not give into it, after all even when he thought Vader killed juno, he offered him to join Rebellion despite that. Which could explain his power.

though, even if Clone Starkiller is above Galen, he shouldn't be above his Oneness self. That's too ridiculous to actually be the case. He himself can't even enter Oneness either.

I agree that he is not above Oneness Galen, just the light side Galen who drove Sidious to desperation.

Furthermore, I know the dark side ending of TFU2 isn't canon, but it can be used in the sense of it being an alternate possibility that could have happened. And with that, a more perfected Starkiller Clone wasn't able to immediately defeat a Leia that had trained for even less time than Luke, as she only started training after his death in Empire Strikes Back. Yet she was still able to last against the superior Starkiller Clone, despite her clear inferiority, and even broke his force barrier once with a push. I really can't see Leia doing this to Sidious or Galen. And this Clone Starkiller is very serious and seems to be trying against her.

Well when things are non canon they often do not scale well with canon. In Witrcher, for example, non-canon alternatives involve Geralt being blitzed and killed by an arrow, even though he in canon easily deflects them. On top of that, the push Leia landed did nothing to him, it was like Kanan pushing Vader in Rebels, it just pushed them back few meters without doing any damage, so I would not see an issue with her doing that to Sidious or Galen, and most of all, we cannot really quantify how much she trained per day compared to Luke. She could have been training more, and even Luke himself went from complete fodder in ESB to being equal with Vader who was close to ROTJ Sidious himself at that point, in just about a year.

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Still gets wrecked at sidious

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#48  Edited By SeventhMoon

@eredin12:" Galen was said to be only Obi-Wan level in the novel" even though that of course never happened.

People claimed that? lol Everyone loves to lie. Like how people said Galen struggled against Maris, even though he didn't at all and instead struggled against the Dark Side-amped Bull Rancor that tired him out, on top of it stating that he was hesitating against Maris due to seeing a bit of himself in her.

Well we know that Galen had the potential to be stronger than Sidious, so Sidious was likely being arrogant there rather than truthful.

I don't think Sidious lied, since we know cybernetics limit one's potential. Galen's wasn't as severe as Vader's, but should hinder him.

but given that he could wreck Force Ghost Kenobi who is more powerful than ANH Vader could even imagine, and same Vader is already more powerful than Yoda, it is safe to say that he will not have issues with him either.

Hm? I don't think any iteration of Vader or Anakin is even equal to RoTS Yoda and Sidious, let alone above them. Vader being above Yoda is much less far-fetched than Anakin, which just blatantly isn't the case, but I still don't see anything suggesting that he's equal or above Yoda, especially ANH Vader.

and even Luke himself went from complete fodder in ESB to being equal with Vader who was close to ROTJ Sidious himself at that point, in just about a year.

I still am on the side that believes Vader was emotionally hindered against Luke. I like Luke way more than him, but I don't think he equaled him at that point yet.

And I certainly don't see him being anything but complete fodder to ROTJ Sidious. George Lucas's statements don't hold up to well when it comes to the EU, where he doesn't really have absolute sole authority, in case you're referring to the 80% statement. Even in the movies, Vader getting hit with indirect parts of Sidious's lightning briefly killed him.

Fair on the Leia thing.

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Supreme101

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Oh shit I just remembered this is prime suit Vader yeah he wins

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#50  Edited By SeventhMoon
@supreme101 said:

Oh shit I just remembered this is prime suit Vader yeah he wins

How? He may not be equal to the balanced Galen that no-diffed Vader, rivaled Sidious and then surpassed him via Oneness, but as Eredin said, Lord Starkiller beat Force Ghost Kenobi, who is massively above ANH Vader.