Lord Momin vs Kirak Infil’a

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Kirak takes it after a bit.

Momin's showing against Vader required the latter to be weakened. And he himself admitted that he had an advantage over Darth in that moment. As well as his inferiority to his weakened Vader.

And even Momin himself states he is nothing to Vader:

Meanwhile, Kirak has better feats in Sabers & Force via scaling to 19BBY Vader:

And even a Vader who just got the suit shortly after RoTS has pretty immense strength:

shortly after ROTS, at his by far weakest, he tears a thick metal door to pieces as if it was paper:

Gallery

So Kirak clashing with him and matching him is an impressive feat nonetheless.

Not to say he clowns or bodies Momin, here.

But Kirak takes it after a bit due to better feats, imo.

@cryolancer47: interesting that you say he has better saber feats. Personally I feel Momin’s duel against Vader is a better showing. Kirak didn’t seem to hold a decisive advantage in their fight, and relied on Vader’s metal leg breaking to overpower him. The Vader that Momin fought had by far more experience with his suit and at the very least looked like he was in better shape, and Momin dismantled him while doling out his philosophy. This is the same Vader that beat Eeth Koth. Again, he was weakened though. But 19 BBY Vader is literally fresh off the operating table, and injured by the time he fights Kirak. If there was ever a time for him to be lacking in skill due to his suit, it’d be then.

Momin’s statement is true, but in my opinion it also feels vague. As if he’s referring to the sheer potential and raw power Vader has, just waiting to be tapped. Plus he’s also manipulating him the whole time to get him to open the gateway, so he could just be exaggerating or even outright bullshitting. Not likely, but still a possibility.

I'll say that, while Kirak didn't really have an edge over Vader, he still kept up with him in Saber skills & Strength.

Sure, the damaged leg gave up. But that's after a while of them trading blows.

And while the Vader Momin fought had better control over his walking torture machine. He still didn't seem to put as much effort as he did against Kirak. Where he had no goal other than killing the latter. And even abused the Force to do so.

And while he's still fresh off the table. The same Vader can still do this:

But I do see your point.

Momin’s statement is true, but in my opinion it also feels vague. As if he’s referring to the sheer potential and raw power Vader has, just waiting to be tapped. Plus he’s also manipulating him the whole time to get him to open the gateway, so he could just be exaggerating or even outright bullshitting. Not likely, but still a possibility.

Intresting take.

But I highly doubt it that Momin was talking about Potential. He was commenting on Vader's power. And while he was indeed just using him, it wouldn't make sense for him to comment on something that is yet to be. Rather than what's being done in front of him with Vader’s current power.

He used Vader after all because of his power and because he was sure he could open the gateway for him.

@cryolancer47: it’s true that he used Vader for his power. But it was also because he couldn’t access his own. He was cut off from the Force as long as he had to use host bodies. Or he needed a host body that had Force potential in order to use it (probably why he tried possessing Vader’s as soon as they met). In that same sentence he says his power wasn’t as great “even when I could use the Force.” Implying he can’t use it now.

I’d also like to mention that he does have that feat of powering his art-machine with the Force. While it’s pretty unquantifiable I think it shows at least some respectable Force affinity to be able to power a device with the capacity to destroy a city.

While I do agree he used him because he himself couldn't. The fact that he commented on Vader's power, and the fact that Vader has plenty of feats supporting that claim. Goes to show that perhaps what Momin said wasn't just empty lies.

And agreed on Momin’s feat. It's pretty impressive. But quite unquantifiable.

And surely not his usual level of combat. And it's use in said combat is even more questionable.

Since Momin could do nothing before Vader completely killed him:

And since even injured Vader is better than him, it's not absurd to say he can replicate powering up the machine with his greater power.

I’m going with Kirak but an argument could be made either way

Kirak was stomping Vader while Vader was stomping Momin. True that the Vader who fault Momin is superior to the one before but the time length isn't very long and despite context in the first fight not leaning toward Vader (his legs for example) I would still give the dub to Kirak

hard to argue that kirak wins without ignoring basic logic tbh. the intent for momin is that of an ancient, genius, prodigious sith lord, while kirak is a combat based jedi. he isnt even more powerful than vader directly if memory serves me right, much less the one momin fought.

@darthor: when did Vader stomp Momin? He kills him repeatedly while he’s using host bodies, but that’s because Momin is seemingly incapable of using the Force at all. When they finally do fight Momin outright out-duels him, even slicing his arm off (he was obviously weakened, but he was also weakened when fighting Kirak). Kirak never stomped Vader. He won due to Vader’s leg failing him. When they fight again it’s inconclusive until Vader exploits Kirak’s concern for the citizens nearby.

The time gap is at least 5 years since the Vader’s Castle arc takes place after killing Eeth Koth. Plus there’s all the time Momin spends actually building the designs for Vader’s fortress, which could take any number of months or even years due to the repeated failures and setbacks with each design. Add in all the time Vader spends going out to crush resistance throughout the galaxy and it really makes the timeframe seem a lot larger. The Vader that fought Kirak was fresh off the operating table and had next to no time to adjust to his suit.

Depends. Kirak is stated to be = to early Vader. Momim says he’s vastly < Vader and lost to him while weakened

That being said, Vader likely got stronger post Kirak, Sidious says Vader would rise from Mustafar unbroken and powerful after forging his lightsaber.

So while Kirak scales to Vader, Momim doesn’t scale but likely encountered a stronger Vader

And if you use TPM Maul > all Sith before him, than Kirak stomps badly

@living162637: Doesn’t that statement only refer to Banite Sith? If so, I’m not sure that Momin qualifies. He can’t really be part of the Rule of Two since he kills his master and then flat out says he never took on any student. So either Shaa and Momin were similar to Maul and Savage during the Clone Wars, as a rival Sith line/faction (separate from the Banite line) that got extinguished, or they lived before Bane’s time. There’s no mention of the Rule either. Momin only notes that Shaa considered herself a master and him the apprentice. That doesn’t necessitate that they’re Banite-era Sith.

@a_fine_edition:

It could be interpreted as such. But the term Sith is broad, and it’s really in context to Sith the Jedi faced, which isn’t exclusive to Momim, so I don’t rate it highly as an argument

@living162637: fair enough. Would you mind posting the statement? I’m not sure I’m familiar with it. Is it even canon anymore?

@a_fine_edition:

Qui-Gon struggles to cope with Maul's surprising skills and only narrowly escapes when Queen Amidala’s starship picks him up. The Jedi is unprepared for the encounter because the Sith were believed to be extinct. It is clear from this duel that the Sith are very much alive and more powerful than ever.

Star Wars: Galaxy At War

Since it was compiled into a three book compilation under canon, I would figure it is

Momin. He performed about equally as well as Kirak had, but against a later vader. Vader was roughly as hindered in both instances

Very interesting matchup, both of them were able to disarm a weakened Vader. I would have to say that Kirak wins the saber round with high difficulty, due to being one of the hardest combatants that Vader has faced.

Kirak also wins round 2 with low-mid difficulty due to resisting Vader's force attacks.

Overall, Kirak should win the all-out round with mid-diff.

Kirak