LoK: The Red Lotus vs Toph Beifong

The Red Lotus, Zaheer, Ghazan, Ming Hua and P'Li, invade the Foggy Swamp during noon in an attempt to assasinate the renowned Toph Beifong. Do they succeed, or will the original momma Beifong make them regret the moment they dared step foot in her home?

The Red Lotus drop down from an airship, knowing Toph's exact location and attempting to surround her. She is willing to kill as much as them, but everyone is IC. Now, let's all spectulate a bit with what we have about Toph's threat level.

I mean, it depends on her connection with the swamp, but I think that the RL should overwhelm her.

I feel like Ghazan and P'Li might go down early through sheer speed and control over the swamp itself.

Then it's the interesting part for me. Zaheer, as a traditional (kind of) airbender is a good counter to Toph's blindness and then combine that with Ming Hua abusing the environment to maneuver and get close.

@anthp2000: I'm not sure if she can take them out that easily, when three-and-a-half powerhouses attack her at the same time. Then again, Toph is kinda broken in this enviroment.

How powerful would you say she is as a bender?

I'd spectulate on her being above Bumi's level honestly. She's already a powerhouse by the age of 13. She probably focused more on metalbending afterwards, but it's obvious she honed significantly overall (taking down Korra without moving).

Toph's not taking all of them at once, I could see Ming Hua alone being a challenge here

Nah, she’s not beating all of them.

Is old Toph Bumi level? From feats of course, not speculation

@anthp2000: I mean, while her handling of Korra was awesome, this Korra was extremely weak. I assume that she's considerable superior to guys like AtlA Katara & Toph tho, yeah.

Toph could very well beat any single one of them on her own but together she has zero chance.

Ming Hua is going to be very OP and the MVP in the swamp with all the trees for swinging and water. All she needs is P'li to distract with a heavy onslaught of combustion beams. She could stay up in the trees and flank Toph with one environmental attack after another while she is fighting of P'li or Ghazan.

Not factoring how Zaheer fits in but as an airbender he will be useful.

Based on feats the more agile members would easily solo.

Toph was one of my favorite characters in the show but I'm not going to pretend she's somethings she's not. She was neglected in the 3rd season of the original series and never had any fights against notable named characters.

This old Tophs best feat was smacking around a Korra who lost to low level fodder and earthquaking Kuviras army which she very well could have charged of screen. They massacre her, P'li, Ming Hua or Ghazan have the potential to solo.

@vengefulshot: Thanks. I thought I was missing something since I only watched s4 once. So old Toph didn't come close to King Bumi in the feats department then?

@deathhero61@gothamciti@amendment50 How good do you think Old Toph is?

Lol at Old Toph having feats to take those characters on at all. Lol at her hype being at all relevant.

@thelurker: No, it's more or less all hype.

Good enough, took out an entire army that surrounded her family, and bodied the hell out of Korra. Bumi as an old man was a powerhouse I don't see why Toph who's just as good, wouldn't be one as well even at an old age.

However, an old version of Toph cannot beat the entire red lotus team

@deathhero61:

took out an entire army that surrounded her family

I personally think this implied her power level over 2 high tier benders combined, which I find very impressive, at least writing-wise.

@thelurker:

However I'm not implying Old Toph is weak, she would put up a very serious fight vs any of them 1v1 maybe even take a majority vs some of them, but 2 or more of them at once? Just no.

This reminds me how interesting it would be to know which version of Toph would be a good fight for Kuvira, lol.

I vote kid Toph.

Tho they probably meant Old Toph, considering the creators don't exactly look at it like us (with 2 different versions and power levels), the lore had old Toph atm.

@anthp2000: I vote Prime Toph :>

That being said, the question was asked before the release of B4, and we didn't knew anything about Grandma Toph yet, despite that she exists. So, Kid Toph seems more likely. Thougj it's still vague.

I did not know that.

I do lean towards kid Toph now.

I agree.

And maybe if she had a few more feats, I'd be convinced she can solo, but with what she has, I doubt it.

I can't imagine old Toph beating all four at once

Tbh, it's pretty hard to beat the Red Lotus in a hype contest, at least in LoK.

Old Toph isn't strong enough to solo the RL by feats, and her hype is ambiguous.

@deathhero61:

Bumi as an old man was a powerhouse I don't see why Toph who's just as good, wouldn't be one as well even at an old age.

Except Bumi's level of earthbending in his prime is completely unknown, so we have no way of knowing how much he deteriorated in his old age despite his physique. He was at least 112 by the end of the ATLA, yet still managed to be in better shape than most of the characters less than a third of his age (likely due to constant training). Old Toph is nowhere near that old, and we know she didn't engage in any level of training regiment as she told Korra all she wanted to do in her freetime is relax and exiled herself to do just that. Bumi was likely still a powerhouse because he kept in shape and trained (but again we have no idea how much that helped him lessen the effects of old age on his bending ability), Toph didn't so you can't really compare them to speculate Old Toph's combat ability.

@juiceboks:

we know she didn't engage in any level of training regiment as she told Korra all she wanted to do in her freetime is relax and exiled herself to do just that.

If you're talking about her old years then yes (and I did not see Bumi training at the age of 100 either), but it's more than obvious she's been training all her life (metalbending and seismic sense are too things she showed to be superior at clearly, and I'd argue her earth wave is possibly better than her building level feats in A:TLA).

@anthp2000:

If you're talking about her old years then yes

After she left civilization and became a hermit, yes.

I did not see Bumi training at the age of 100 either

You didn't have to. We know Bumi eats like a king (literally) and the effects of old age on a human's metabolism are particularly devastating (the fact that he never shied away from candy doesn't help). It's a miracle he could even live that long without the aid of any medical apparatus let alone perform as well as he does in combat. There's only one logical explanation for him to be in that good shape despite all the factors that honestly should have lead to his death years ago. We see in Iroh what can happen to old benders who don't engage in constant exercise and eat like royalty despite their master level of bending.

metalbending and seismic sense are too things she showed to be superior at clearly

Superior relative to what point in her life? As a 10 year old possibly, but as an adult in her prime? Highly unlikely, at least for the former. The latter involved her using the banyan grove tree for her new feats, which points more towards her unique connection to nature rather than earthbending in general.

and I'd argue her earth wave is possibly better than her building level feats in A:TLA

I wouldn't, because it was city-block level at best and we don't know how much effort that took.

@juiceboks: Let's not try to find scientific reasoning in the world of Avatar. I recall an interview where the creators said "we've discussed this a lot and we said yes, Kyoshi is going to be 120 years old" and I think they referenced Bumi's age too. Mentioning that it's not so much of a reasoning. I could remember stuff foggy though, it's been sometime since I read the interview.

Yes, as a kid at the age of 13 (when she debuted) and even currently, at the age of 16. I don't know the difference between her prime self and her old self, what we do know is that in those aspects, she's far superior to her child self, which is what I said. What I mean is that she obviously trained a lot throughout her life, to reach that point of seismic sense, psychic earthbending and metalbending.

I'm not sure what you mean by her using the swamp tree. She simply bent mud to maneuver around and toss Korra aside, without moving. That's straight up earthbending.

"Individually they can take down any bender"- Lord Zuko

*Later that season gets 1 v 3ed by Tenzin lol (ok he didn't win but still)

@vengefulshot: tenzin is plural, then

Old Toph to Opal: "My fighting days are over. Don't tell Korra but my back is killing me now."

She isn't Bumi, she doesn't have the physique to fight for extended periods of time or under major physical stress.

@tektonic: Even Bumi would die to this team.

No doubt.

Why not? People may live longer in the world of Avatar in some extreme cases (Guru Pathik) but old age and lack of exercise has the same effect. Iroh spent most of his time drinking tea and eating and he got fat as a result, but he rectified it by eating right (or at least as healthy as he could) and working out constantly. That's just basic human anatomy.

She was 12 when she was first introduced actually, not that it really matters. Of course she trained throughout her life, but there's no reason to believe that her training persisted through her old age. She lived a peaceful life in the swamp with nobody to bother her, whereas Bumi had a war going on right outside of his doorstep. As by far the most powerful earthbender in Omashu, it'd only make sense for him to be ready to defend his city at any time. Toph had no such worries.

I was referring to her seismic sense, which is the only ability of hers that we saw improved from when we last saw her.

@juiceboks: Fair enough.

Now, I agree that on a physical aspect, Bumi is clearly on better shape than an old Toph. However, this has next to nothing to do with their bending prowess. Toph was already a comparable bender to King Bumi at the age of 12. We know she trained in Seismic Sense, metalbending and psychic earthbending and I don't think the Toph of A:TLA could replicate her earthquake against Kuvira's army. At the very least, not by a technique standpoint. Conclusively, I think it would only make sense that her earthbending got an overall upgrade and a significant one at that.

As for the circumstances of their life in comparison, yes, Bumi was living under a war. But even based on comments of outsiders mentioning that no one goes in the swamp, not even considering it as an option. I'm guessing it's not all milk and honey in there either. And Beifong might as well be the reason for this. Of course that last part is plain speculation.

this

@dextersinister1: The Runaway was a great episode focused in her. I do not think that Toph was neglected at all, she did have notable fights also

Toph loses a majority. But she'll likely take half or more of them with her, and if she can catch them alone she stomps any of them 1v1.

Toph has a homefield advantage here (her spiritual connection to the swamp), but that's one of the few things that would keep her in the fight for more than a few moments.

She loses badly. Even someone like Zaheer who is inferior to her would have a good chance of evading a lot of her attacks and abilities to see.

The Lotus stomp hard ngl.

Toph is good but she's not that good. RL wins.

@anthp2000: Old toph is weak her one move was a sneak attack and she beat korra who had ptsd and poison not that impressive.

@cocacolaman: Old toph doesnt beat half of them how bias can you be.

Old toph one move was a charge up time sneak attack feat.

@anthp2000: she gets demolished

@anthp2000: you toph fanboys are ridiculous if you think toph is faster than anyone in the red lotus

Yeah they're too all much at once

Zaheer can fly...how is this fair lol.