Loebverse CaV: Quake (BlackSpidey) vs Daredevil (SupremeSoup)

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Daisy Johnson

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Matthew Murdock

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Stipulations:

  • Unarmed fight
  • Matt as of Defenders Season 1
  • Matt doesn't have his red suit, Daisy is denied access to her powers
  • Fight takes place in a church

CaV Rules

  • It's a CaV, only Blackspidey and I are allowed to debate.
  • Please share your thoughts after the debate.
  • Voting rules will be discussed when voting opens.
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"Loebverse CaV"

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blackspidey2099

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I await your opener TOAA

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Daredevil

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I don't care enough to write a bio, this is an unarmed fight - no batons, no red body armor. With that said:

Fighting Skills

This is probably going to be the most heated topic for the CaV and here I'll be arguing Matt has a solid and noticeable advantage. Some basic feats to start off:

These are to pretty low end feats Matt, personally I don't think there's anything suggesting that Daisy could replicate either of these showings, especially the second. Moving on, there's feats against established opposition and here I think the gap becomes pretty noticeable - I'll start with Matt's fight with Frank Castle aka the Punisher and will bring up other showings if they become necessary.

Here an enraged Frank isn't able to land a hit on Matt and is easily outfought, Matt easily sidesteps his attacks and wins their very brief wrestle cementing himself as being a tier above The Punisher overall. Frank in a previous episode demonstrated himself as good enough to defeat 9 hardened prison cell block after DD s2 he got his own spin off series where he kicked everyone's ass

Personally I'd argue Frank as a good fight for Daisy yet he is no match for Matt by the near end of Daredevil Season ii.

Physical Stats/Damage Soak

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To showcase Matt's durability we have this fight with Nobu from Matt's first season, he gets hit somewhere around fifteen times by the guy and dragged on the floor by a chain stuck inside of his chest. Nobu in the same fight sequences is spinning Matt in the air and then punching him 10 feet and kicking him even larger distances, his striking is easily comparable to Daisy and even after this 3 and a half stomp Matt took a beatdown from Fisk and still stayed in above average fighting condition.

Speed:

The gap here is pretty noticeable, nobody on Agents of Shield has feats of reacting to fast projectiles, Matt can deflect arrows spammed at him by 3 Archers while charging at them. He's also a consistent aim dodger and has even been able to evade the aim of particularly fast opponents like the Punisher. Daisy just doesn't have the feats to compete here, even visually Matt consistently fights at a faster pace than her.

Strength:

You'll also see Matt doing heavy damage to Frank Castle with his attacks and one of his character traits is being a sponge to damage. I think that's enough to show Matt can both put Daisy down with his attacks and compete physically

Conclusion

Matt has a pretty glaring advantage in skill and is comparable/superior everywhere else, Daisy hasn't really done anything to suggest she could beat an opponent of his caliber in a fight.

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Interesting post. I'll try to respond ASAP.

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T4V

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JaylinFreeman

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TAEP please

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D00mSlayer1993

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T4V pls

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TAEP

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Tag and hopefully this finishes

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Daisy Johnson: Quake

"Being different can mean making a difference." - Daisy Johnson

Hacker to Hero: Bio

Daisy Johnson was initially born to Cal and Jiaying Johnson in China, during the 80s, but was taken away after her village was attacked by HYDRA, with her mother seemingly killed. After this initial traumatic experience, she lived in an orphanage in New York taking the name Skye, but was never able to find a sense of home, or family. This led to her acting out, using her prodigious intellect to join a worldwide hacker group known as the Rising Tide.

Her exploits soon put her on SHIELD's radar, but instead of being apprehended, Phil Coulson took her in as a consultant to his specialized team. When SHIELD fell soon after, she proved her loyalty to SHIELD, and became one of its most trusted agents to the new director - Coulson himself. It was around this time that she discovered her true heritage, after being exposed to a Kree substance known as Terrigen, which gave her powers centered around the idea of vibration manipulation.

With SHIELD being ill-equipped to deal with this alien outbreak, she left SHIELD to join a secretive group of fellow Inhumans with powers like hers. To her shock, the leader of the group was her long-lost mother, whose superhuman healing had allowed her to survive years of torture at the hands of HYDRA. Together, her mother and father revealed to Skye that her real name was Daisy Johnson, and began to help her control her powers.

However, once it was revealed that her mother wanted to attack SHIELD, she ultimately proved more loyal to her family at SHIELD than to her biological family, stopping Jiaying's plan and rejoining SHIELD. Since then, she's stuck with SHIELD as they protect both human and Inhuman from threats ranging from aliens to killer robots, and has saved the entire planet multiple times over.

Alien Weapon: Fighting Skills

You've shown some decent (albeit introductory) feats for Matt so far, so I'll respond with some of my own for Quake. Daisy Johnson is a fighting prodigy, having become one of the most dangerous unarmed combatants on Earth within only a few years of SHIELD training, directly under some of the most lethal agents SHIELD has ever seen - such as Grant Ward and Melinda May.

Daisy sparring with May, showing impressive skill in keeping up with an agile and experienced combatant
Daisy sparring with May, showing impressive skill in keeping up with an agile and experienced combatant

As such, I'm more than confident that she can keep up with Matt in terms of skill. To further prove that's the case, I'll show you some feats that I believe are far better than the ones you've currently brought up for Matt.

First of all, we can see how easily Daisy takes down 3 armed HYDRA STRIKE agents (who should be at least as good as, if not better than, Hand ninja) + another HYDRA agent within an enclosed space with not much room to maneuver.

Despite that, she's still able to get out of the encounter completely unhurt (and untagged from what we can see). I think this showing is clearly better than the first two feats you showed for Matt since she takes out more enemies, who are more skilled, and have more armor/durability in a far more enclosed space with less room to avoid attacks.

However, just to show how well Daisy can handle fighting in situations where her senses are failing her, I'll bring up another feat. While, in Daisy's words, "tripping balls" on some sort of alien LSD, she was able to take out a bunch of Chronicom Hunters - immortal robots with extremely advanced technology that have centuries (at least) of fighting experience and were casually able to take down Condederacy platoons as well as SHIELD bases.

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Not only does she easily evade energy blasts from their futuristic weapons, she manages to take out two or three of them in combat despite hallucinating and being barely able to stand before the fight. For more details on how exactly the drugs were affecting her vision, you can watch this video - but for a summary, Daisy and Jemma were so high they could barely stand or even go down stairs, and were hallucinating various colors, shapes, and even objects/people. Considering the best feat Hand ninja have is like ambushing cops, I'd say Chronicom Hunters are implied and shown to be far more dangerous than ninja given how the squadron was able to take down an entire SHIELD base on their own. Taking them down so casually despite being barely able to stand is definitely better than anything you've shown for Matt.

Before I end this section though, I want to address your (faulty) Punisher scaling. You claim that:

Here an enraged Frank isn't able to land a hit on Matt and is easily outfought

when that clearly isn't true if you see their full fight.

Loading Video...

In the full fight, there's literally only a 10 second sequence where Matt dodges Frank's hits (0:45-0:55). Before that, Frank grabs Matt and overpowers him in a grapple, and then lands multiple hits. Matt is able to easily tank these hits because of his suit, which he doesn't have in this battle - so he easily recovers. After that 10 second sequence, Frank grabs Matt in another grapple, but this time Matt overpowers him. And then the fight ends.

I don't think a 10 second sequence in a fight, in which Matt dodges like 4 hits, is anywhere near enough to show that Matt is "a tier above The Punisher overall" - especially given the conditions of this fight (Frank being completely emotionally distraught after finding out that the dude on the boat wasn't actually the guy who ordered his family to be killed) and the results of their previous two fights in which Frank was able to keep up with Matt just fine despite being a bit less skilled.

Most importantly though, Frank isn't exactly a skilled opponent in the same way Daisy and Matt are. His entire fighting style revolves around taking hits and just walking through them. This is why he gets tagged by basically everyone he fights, and it isn't really impressive that Matt can do it as well. Even in the Punisher scaling gifs you posted, he clearly gets tagged extremely often and just fights through the pain. What makes Frank impressive as a fighter is his damage soak and endurance; his ability to keep fighting despite being stabbed, or shot, or punched in the face. Considering that Matt didn't even manage to knock Frank out, I don't see what's so impressive about dodging a few hits from a guy who basically fights like a brute.

Beyond that, there's also the fact that in all the scaling gifs you posted for Frank, he uses weapons to take out his opponents. Sure, he might not have started with the weapons in hand, but it's not really unarmed combat if you take a giant wooden stick from the second guy you fight and then use that (as well as other weapons) to take everyone else out. Considering he didn't have any weapon in the boat fight with Matt, Frank was further handicapped beyond his emotional state by the fact that he wasn't fighting the way he normally does.

Overall, now that I've debunked your Frank scaling, it's pretty clear that I've posted way better skill feats for Daisy than you have for Matt. I know Matt has better feats (as does Daisy), so I'm not going to definitively say that Daisy is more skilled (yet). However, I am going to say that you need to step it up with your next post if you want to show me that Matt can hang at this level.

Inhuman Power: Physicals

Since you seem to be so confident that Matt is faster than Daisy, let's start there. Spoiler alert - he isn't. Arrow timing is nowhere close to what's needed to be faster than Daisy.

According to Google, a recurve bow fires arrows at around 225 feet per second, and longbow arrows are even slower than that. Based on your gif, I'd say that the Hand ninja were using longbows, which are basically the slowest type of bow. Even if we assume that they were using recurve bows, Daisy has way better casual reaction speed.

For example, she's been able to easily react to and deflect a grenade launcher mid-flight, as seen below:

After it was fired, Daisy had the speed to get out of cover, aim, and then deflect the grenade. The current grenade launcher used by the US Military is the M320 - which has a muzzle velocity of 76m/s or 250 feet per second. So Daisy was able to react to a faster projectile than Matt was, and did a lot more in that timespan as well (compared to just moving an arm).

Unfortunately for Matt, that's not even Daisy's best speed feat. Daisy was able to literally catch Sinara's metal orbs in mid air using her Quake powers!

Sinara's orbs actually have crazy feats - being able to shatter skulls and damage metal blocks enough to create shrapnel (in the latter gif, Daisy literally dodges them without even looking at them, showcasing just how easy she finds it to operate at such high levels of speed). While their speed is pretty unquantifiable since they're a futuristic alien weapon that doesn't exist on Earth, it's pretty clear that they move far quicker than arrows based on their much better destructive capacity despite having a far less efficient shape.

Anyways, I don't really think speed is going to be a decisive factor in this battle since both Daisy and Matt should have no trouble keeping up with one another in terms of speed. They've also both been tagged by slower people. So this battle is going to be more about skill, strength, and durability. All three of which Daisy's got in spades (and which you haven't shown much of for Matt).

When facing someone of Daisy's caliber, taking hits from and being ragdolled by Nobu isn't really anything impressive since Daisy hits a lot harder. If you think Nobu kicking Matt a few feet is impressive (after which he was on the ground for a few seconds), you should really enjoy the following feat for Daisy.

With a casual kick, she kicks an armed HYDRA agent a lot further than Nobu did with Matt - and he goes flying so hard that he literally goes straight through a door in HYDRA's top-secret and heavily armored bunker. Considering that Matt was actually down for a little while when Nobu kicked him, I'm not sure how long it would take him to recover from a far more powerful strike like this.

Her punches are equally powerful, as shown with how she was able to take down most Kree pretty casually, with just a few hits in quick succession.

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On the other hand, the other humans weren't even able to hurt Kree - Deke actually hurt himself more than he hurt Sinara when he tried attacking her:

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I see nothing to suggest Matt will be left standing after even a couple of punches or kicks from Daisy tbh. This is especially true since every time Nobu actually hit him hard with like a spinning kick or punched him while he was in the air, he needed a decent amount of time to recover (the video makes it clear that not all of Nobu's hits were equally strong). Since I've shown that Daisy's normal attacks are clearly stronger than Nobu's strongest attacks, he should be on the floor within a couple of hits unless you can come up with better durability feats for him.

Similarly, I don't think Matt has any hope of putting Daisy down given what she's endured. The feats you've shown for him are well within real life human tier. Based on the video, the pillar Matt cracked wasn't concrete but rather marble (the same material as the statue Dex breaks by just dropping it on the floor at 1:47) which is pretty fragile and susceptible to cracking from everyday activities. Similarly, both the table and those walls you showed Matt breaking were clearly ridiculously flimsy thin layers of wood which pretty much any fit person IRL should be able to damage. Kicking someone a few feet is probably slightly above real life level, but not far above. On the other hand, Quake's durability is far above human level.

She's been able to take a barrage of hits straight to the face from Sinara for over 20 seconds without showing any visible damage beyond a single cut which she already had (I had to cut some of it off at the end since gfycat was down so I had to use Giphy which has a 15 second limit).

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For reference, in the same fight Sinara was able to casually, dismissively one-shot Deke when he interrupted her battle with Daisy.

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Heck, in the same fight, Sinara showed that she was strong enough to push Daisy so hard that it completely broke a metal railing!

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I've never seen Matt take out regular humans that easily, or even dent any sort of metal, and yet Daisy was able to absolutely tank 20 whole seconds of blows straight to the face from a superhuman that hits harder than Matt does. And that's not even her best durability feat!

You brought up Frank again to showcase Matt's striking, but as far as I can remember, Matt never actually knocked Frank out in any of their fights. It's not like just bloodying him is a feat, since he gets bloodied by fodder pretty often. What's actually impressive would be knocking him out, and Matt hasn't done that. So, once again, I find your Frank scaling quite dubious. There's also the fact that Frank isn't as durable as Daisy is, at least in terms of blunt force attacks, so that scaling is hardly useful anyways.

At this point, you haven't really shown any striking feats for Matt that warrant me posting anything else, since based on what we have so far, Daisy should be able to walk straight through Matt's attacks - or at the very least, I don't see anything to suggest Matt can put her down.

Conclusion:

As of now, there doesn't appear to be too much left to say. To sum it up, Quake appears to be at least as skilled as Matt (if not moreso), but has a ridiculous advantage in terms of her physicals to the point I'd say she's even tankier and hits harder than Fisk, someone who already dwarfed Matt physically. I'm sure you have some more feats you haven't brought to the table yet (just as I do), so I'm not going to make any strong statements on what's likely to go down in this battle beyond what I've already said. For now though, let's just say that you really need to ramp it up a notch if you want to show Matt stands any chance against Quake in this battle.

With that said, I look forward to your next post. I hope this continues to be an entertaining and friendly debate!

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How many posts before kol gives up?

T4v, if it ever gets to it.

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Tag if this is still going on

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Post #2

No Caption Provided

Intro

This is going to be slightly different from how this CaV would typically go, as I'm taking over for KoL, I'll also be bringing up new feats in this post which KoL hasn't, something I wouldn't typically do. Due to this, the amount of posts we do may exceed the standard three.

To summarize my views on this battle, I believe Matt has a slight speed advantage, but a massive skill advantage which will win him this fight, I believe both have equally as impressive striking power though I am inclined to give Daredevil the edge in durability given what you've posted so far.

Combat Skill

Much like KoL I believe Matt has a very sizable combat skill advantage, first I'll clear up any misconceptions about feats already posted but I'm also going to bring up more showings, primarily from The Defenders, which is where Matt gets his best feats.

Frank v Matt

Matt is definitely decisively superior to Frank by the end of Season 2, not only is this supported by the fight posted by KoL, but also by Matt's In Universe improvement throughout Season 2, primarily due to his experience fighting the Hand. This has been explicitly stated by Charlie Cox, the actor who plays Daredevil, who states that due to the versatility of the Hand:

It forces Matt to really hone his skills, he has to be better, faster, stronger than he's ever been before.

Charlie Cox

This would only make it more logical for Matt to be able to dispose of Frank quite easily by the end of the Season, given that near the start of the Season, he was essentially an equal to Frank. But back on this specific showing:

In the full fight, there's literally only a 10 second sequence where Matt dodges Frank's hits (0:45-0:55). Before that, Frank grabs Matt and overpowers him in a grapple, and then lands multiple hits. Matt is able to easily tank these hits because of his suit, which he doesn't have in this battle - so he easily recovers. After that 10 second sequence, Frank grabs Matt in another grapple, but this time Matt overpowers him. And then the fight ends.

But a lot of context is being ignored here, it becomes clear that Matt is only there to reason with Frank, while Frank is hellbent on inflicting real damage, not only is this portrayed through the actual fight itself (Matt does not throw a single strike at first, rather just attempts to cool him down, which we see at 0:10, where Matt attempts to keep Frank back rather than attack him when he clearly had the opportunity to). If this isn't enough for you, there is also the dialogue in this scene:

Frank: When are you gonna learn?! To mind your God... damn... business!

Matt: Goddammit Frank, we want the same thing.

Frank: That's bullshit... that's bullshit.

Matt: I don't want to fight you Frank, I don't want to fight you.

But then as Frank presses on and keeps attacking, Matt is forced to fight back, and he swiftly outmanuevers Frank with ease. You brought up some valid points after this, primarily about Frank's brutish combat style, while comparing Matt's showing to Frank getting tagged by others seems a bit unfair to me, given that noone has ever outfought Frank the way Matt did here.

Once again though, you brought up a valid point about Frank's brutish combat style, whilst I disagree with Daisy being able to replicate the showing, this isn't something I want to press on, as I don't believe outmaneuvering Frank is enough to show a sizable skill advantage over Daisy, and that brings me onto Defenders Feats.

Defenders Feats

The main feat I'm going to use is a very specific showing which you probably saw coming, Matt's first fight against Black Sky, Matt lasts for a total of 45 seconds, and appears as quite clearly a more skilled fighter for a number of reasons:

  • Matt lands a lot more hits on BS than BS does on Matt, and his loss can mostly be accredited to her enhanced physicals, as she was able to take his hits without issue while a single strike from BS was enough to ragdoll Matt and daze him for a brief moment.
  • Matt was completely unarmed, and had been out of practice for quite some time (he gave up his vigilante life prior to Defenders), while BS was Armed, bloodlusted and turned into a killing machine prior to this.

What makes this showing so impressive is that Black Sky has feats that trump any feat you've posted for Daisy. In this showing, Black Sky starts Unarmed and surrounded by 10 Hand Ninjas all wielding Swords, and she manages to take them all out within 10 seconds.

For reference, a single fodder Hand Ninja is capable of taking out two security guards with a single move and fighting effectively whilst slowing his heartbeat, and holding his breath. On top of this, we've seen that they're highly agile, capable of utilizing their acrobatic abilities in combat (for those who have not seen Daredevil, this showing should not be used against Matt, as he was shot by a poison arrow from surprise prior to this). You claimed that Hydra Agents are equal or superior to Hand Ninjas, but so far have posted nothing to substantiate this claim.

Back on to Black Sky's feat against the 10 Hand, let's compare this to the feats you've posted:

  1. Daisy gaining the upper hand in a spar with Melinda May
  2. Daisy defeating 3 Hydra Agents
  3. Daisy defeating 2 Chronicom Hunters (not sure what makes you think it could be three, it seems very clear that it's 2, not that it changes anything here).

1. You haven't yet provided a single showing from Melinda May that makes this impressive, only made a statement claiming she is experienced and agile, which obviously isn't enough to contend with Black Sky given the 10v1 feat outlined above.

2. Black Sky defeating 10 Hand Ninjas is undeniably way better than this, BS is facing 3x more opponents, she is facing better opponents (judging by what's been posted so far) and clears the scenario with just as much efficiency.

Daisy vs 2 Chronicom Hunters:

This was the feat you pressed on the most, so it's more appropriate to make a separate section for this.

immortal robots with extremely advanced technology

Why is this relevant when the two Hunters in the video you provided were clearly unarmed, immortality and advanced technology don't correlate to combat skill.

that have centuries (at least) of fighting experience and were casually able to take down Confederacy platoons as well as SHIELD bases.

Having centuries of fighting experience would obviously make for a good combatant, but not to the point where we can just assume that this single combatant is comparable to Five Hand Ninjas, which they'd have to be for Daisy to be comparable to Black Sky in regards to skill (let alone Matt). They need feats for that.

These two feats you've provided are extremely vague, you've provided no context for these feats and haven't related them to Daisy's showing against 2 Hunters, there's a ton of factors to consider in these two feats:

  • How many Hunters were needed to take down the Platoons / SHIELD bases?
  • How many Soldiers / Agents were opposing the Hunters?
  • Did they have Equipment? What Equipment did they have?
  • Were the Soldiers / Agents taken out in Close Quarters or at Range?

The two showings speak for the Chronicom Hunters' overall ability, but not specifically for their combat skill. I see no reason why 2 Chronicom Hunters would stand any fraction of a chance against 10 Hand Ninjas.

Physicals

Speed

Much like you, I don't believe speed is a significant factor in this fight, I believe Matt has a speed advantage much like KoL, but certainly not a significant advantage here.

Since you seem to be so confident that Matt is faster than Daisy, let's start there. Spoiler alert - he isn't. Arrow timing is nowhere close to what's needed to be faster than Daisy.

According to Google, a recurve bow fires arrows at around 225 feet per second, and longbow arrows are even slower than that. Based on your gif, I'd say that the Hand ninja were using longbows, which are basically the slowest type of bow. Even if we assume that they were using recurve bows, Daisy has way better casual reaction speed.

For example, she's been able to easily react to and deflect a grenade launcher mid-flight, as seen below:

After it was fired, Daisy had the speed to get out of cover, aim, and then deflect the grenade. The current grenade launcher used by the US Military is the M320 - which has a muzzle velocity of 76m/s or 250 feet per second. So Daisy was able to react to a faster projectile than Matt was, and did a lot more in that timespan as well (compared to just moving an arm).

According to Google, the average Longbow is 6 foot and 6 inches in length, this seems significantly lengthier than the Bows being used by the Hand Ninja, which were considerably smaller than the actual Ninjas themselves, so obviously a lot shorter than this.

I don't think it's fair that you've automatically assumed they were Longbows just going off visuals, when Recurve Bows can appear very basic and traditional, which you can find from a basic google images search.

I'm fine taking the speed of the Arrows at 225fps, while the difference in speed in the Arrows / Grenade Launcher is 7.6m/s, the other factors of the feats are what make Matt's feat superior.

  1. Daisy only has to deflect one GL round.
  2. Matt is deflecting arrows fired from multiple archers simultaneously in the gif provided.
  3. Daisy had a 15-20 foot distance between her and the truck, giving her a lot more time to react.
  4. Matt has deflected Arrows at point blank range, around 3 feet at best (while suffering from the effects of a poison arrow shot at him from a surprise).

Unfortunately for Matt, that's not even Daisy's best speed feat. Daisy was able to literally catch Sinara's metal orbs in mid air using her Quake powers!

Sinara's orbs actually have crazy feats - being able to shatter skulls and damage metal blocks enough to create shrapnel (in the latter gif, Daisy literally dodges them without even looking at them, showcasing just how easy she finds it to operate at such high levels of speed). While their speed is pretty unquantifiable since they're a futuristic alien weapon that doesn't exist on Earth, it's pretty clear that they move far quicker than arrows based on their much better destructive capacity despite having a far less efficient shape.

Better destructive capabilities does not make them faster, the mass of the orbs and the material are very relevant factors, and while not exactly quantifiable, I'd assume solid metal orbs of that size would be significantly harder and heavier than a Standard Arrow. I'm no physicist, so I have no idea how fast specifically it would have to be. But you can't claim that they're significantly faster than Arrows without accounting for the other factors, and the specific effects of each of these factors.

I assume that neither of us will be able to accurately gauge the speed of these objects, but we'll see after your next post. As it stands the Grenade Launcher feat is the only clear cut quantifiable speed feat posted for Daisy.

Matt's Durability

With a casual kick, she kicks an armed HYDRA agent a lot further than Nobu did with Matt - and he goes flying so hard that he literally goes straight through a door in HYDRA's top-secret and heavily armored bunker. Considering that Matt was actually down for a little while when Nobu kicked him, I'm not sure how long it would take him to recover from a far more powerful strike like this.

Matt's showing against Nobu is really being downplayed here, he got up pretty much instantly after his strikes and let's not pretend that Matt wasn't eating hits mid fight, Matt takes a total of 16 strikes from Nobu, gets slashed all over his body, stabbed in the back and in the gut, proceeds to take a beatdown from Wilson Fisk, yet is still able to escape from Armed gunmen after all of this, jumping out of a window and falling into a river, and then swimming home with all these injuries (1, 2).

Matt was injured after this, but the only real injuries were due to the stabbings and slashes all across his body, Matt was recovering from Nobu / Fisk's strikes almost instantly and continuing to fight without issue. Nobu does hit similarly as hard as Daisy if not harder, and is capable of ragdolling grown men in a similar fashion to Daisy, however Nobu's kick clearly would have sent the opponent significantly further than Daisy's strike had he not been stopped by the wall. I believe this should account for Daisy's opponent taking a door down, as door hinges aren't known to be overly strong anyways.

I don't think Daisy being in a secure facility at the time of this feat automatically means that everything is going to be heavily armored and reinforced, the door visually did not seem this way, and it has never been implied in the show.

I haven't even started on Wilson Fisk, who is way more powerful than Daisy, his most impressive feat comes from Season 3, he picks up Dex and rams him into a brick wall, destroying a sizable chunk of it.

(the broken chunk on the right side of the pic)
(the broken chunk on the right side of the pic)

This feat is more equatable to Fisk's attacks on Matt however, where he creates a hole in a brick wall with a single punch, but both of these showings give a general idea of how powerful Fisk is.

I don't think you'll refute Fisk being physically superior to Daisy, so to summarize:

  • Daredevil took 16 hits from Nobu and was evidently fine
  • Daredevil whilst suffering from immense blood loss and pain due to being stabbed in the back and gut, takes 17 hits from Wilson Fisk and is back on his feet able to flee 30 seconds later.

Matt is definitely capable of eating Daisy's strikes mid combat judging by his performance here against an equally powerful opponent (Nobu) and a much more powerful opponent (Fisk) than Daisy. It's clear that the main source of Matt's injuries in these showings are his blood loss and internal injuries due to Nobu's blade, not the physical strikes, given Matt's vastly superior skill he will also take much less consecutive strikes than he did here. Giving him time to recover.

Her punches are equally powerful, as shown with how she was able to take down most Kree pretty casually, with just a few hits in quick succession.

On the other hand, the other humans weren't even able to hurt Kree - Deke actually hurt himself more than he hurt Sinara when he tried attacking her:

Is this supposed to be impressive? Because it really isn't. Tanking a single punch from a guy who you've posted no feats at all for is not a good durability showing, in fact the majority of peak humans could tank it. It's like if I used Matt tanking direct hits to the face from Danny Rand without any effects as a high level durability feat without posting a single striking feat for Danny. Luckily Danny does have striking feats though, such as ragdolling and one shotting Armored SWAT guys. This is a low end durability feat for Matt given the Nobu / Fisk showing discussed earlier, but is honestly just as good as the showing provided for the Kree.

This is especially true since every time Nobu actually hit him hard with like a spinning kick or punched him while he was in the air, he needed a decent amount of time to recover (the video makes it clear that not all of Nobu's hits were equally strong). Since I've shown that Daisy's normal attacks are clearly stronger than Nobu's strongest attacks, he should be on the floor within a couple of hits unless you can come up with better durability feats for him.

This seems like a clear double standard, when it comes to Nobu's strikes, you're claiming only very specific strikes are actually powerful, but every strike Daisy lands in combat is as powerful as the kick you posted? You must see the fault in this, in an actual combat scenario Daisy isn't constantly going to be landing kicks of that caliber, that should go without saying, given that she'll be constantly pressured by Matt, the same applied when Matt fought against Nobu. Only difference is that Daisy will be even under more pressure given that Matt is way more skilled.

Matt's Striking Power

Similarly, I don't think Matt has any hope of putting Daisy down given what she's endured. The feats you've shown for him are well within real life human tier. Based on the video, the pillar Matt cracked wasn't concrete but rather marble (the same material as the statue Dex breaks by just dropping it on the floor at 1:47) which is pretty fragile and susceptible to cracking from everyday activities. Similarly, both the table and those walls you showed Matt breaking were clearly ridiculously flimsy thin layers of wood which pretty much any fit person IRL should be able to damage. Kicking someone a few feet is probably slightly above real life level, but not far above. On the other hand, Quake's durability is far above human level.

I mean... I don't know how anyone can look at that and think it's marble but this isn't a feat I want to emphasize, as I believe Matt has much better strength and striking feats that clearly show she can harm Daisy. So moving on from here...

She's been able to take a barrage of hits straight to the face from Sinara for over 20 seconds without showing any visible damage beyond a single cut which she already had (I had to cut some of it off at the end since gfycat was down so I had to use Giphy which has a 15 second limit).

For reference, in the same fight Sinara was able to casually, dismissively one-shot Deke when he interrupted her battle with Daisy.

Once again I have to ask why is it impressive to one shot Deke? You posted no durability feats whatsoever so this is about as impressive as one shotting a random fodder. I noticed you implied that Matt can't take out regular human fodder this easily, which is just a ridiculous notion. A clean strike from a pro fighter is more often than not going to KO any IRL human who is on the receiving end, a strike from Daredevil... who can send grown men flying through the air with his strikes (a feat no IRL human is coming close to), is obviously going to be more impactful. Implying he can't one shot fodder is just wrong on every level, and the only reason it doesn't happen so often is because of the way fight scenes are written, as they aren't usually written to end so quickly (this isn't something exclusive to Daredevil).

Considering all this, Matt definitely hits harder than Sinara, so tanking Sinara's hits doesn't necessarily mean Daisy can tank Matt's.

Just a side note, you also omitted the fact that Deke actually takes a strike from Sinara right before this, so it wasn't technically a one shot.

Heck, in the same fight, Sinara showed that she was strong enough to push Daisy so hard that it completely broke a metal railing!

I've never seen Matt take out regular humans that easily, or even dent any sort of metal, and yet Daisy was able to absolutely tank 20 whole seconds of blows straight to the face from a superhuman that hits harder than Matt does. And that's not even her best durability feat!

This is a pretty good feat but ultimately only a single attack, Matt has broken a metal door lock before with a strike, while not as thick as the railing it is good enough to prove he can wear down Daisy over time.

You brought up Frank again to showcase Matt's striking, but as far as I can remember, Matt never actually knocked Frank out in any of their fights. It's not like just bloodying him is a feat, since he gets bloodied by fodder pretty often. What's actually impressive would be knocking him out, and Matt hasn't done that. So, once again, I find your Frank scaling quite dubious. There's also the fact that Frank isn't as durable as Daisy is, at least in terms of blunt force attacks, so that scaling is hardly useful anyways.

At this point, you haven't really shown any striking feats for Matt that warrant me posting anything else, since based on what we have so far, Daisy should be able to walk straight through Matt's attacks - or at the very least, I don't see anything to suggest Matt can put her down.

This isn't true, at all, Matt is the only character who I believe has KO'd Frank thus far:

(Although it should be noted that Matt had landed strikes before this and had a gun taped to his hand, which may have slightly improved his power)
(Although it should be noted that Matt had landed strikes before this and had a gun taped to his hand, which may have slightly improved his power)

Regardless of this, I've posted more feats now that clearly prove that Matt is more than capable of dishing out damage. Given that Daisy's durability feats aren't that good anyway.

Conclusion

  • Daredevil has a slight speed advantage, but a massive skill advantage, hence he will be evading more strikes and landing a lot more, Daisy would need an immense stat advantage to overcome this, which brings me on to my next point.
  • Daisy does not have an immense stat advantage over Matt, her striking feats are near equatable to Matt's, whilst her durability seems much less impressive given what you've posted thus far.
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#22  Edited By blackspidey2099

Round 2: Analyzing the Battle

"Do you have any idea what I can do?" - Daisy Johnson

Skill Comparison:

Matt is definitely decisively superior to Frank by the end of Season 2, not only is this supported by the fight posted by KoL, but also by Matt's In Universe improvement throughout Season 2, primarily due to his experience fighting the Hand. This has been explicitly stated by Charlie Cox, the actor who plays Daredevil, who states that due to the versatility of the Hand:

It forces Matt to really hone his skills, he has to be better, faster, stronger than he's ever been before.

Charlie Cox

This would only make it more logical for Matt to be able to dispose of Frank quite easily by the end of the Season, given that near the start of the Season, he was essentially an equal to Frank. But back on this specific showing:

I mean, in the interview you linked, Charlie Cox is clearly talking about Matt honing his skills with his enhanced senses - they're talking about how the Hand can hide their heartbeats, so Matt has to learn to detect their weapons (and later, their breathing patterns). I don't see how martial arts skills are relevant at all when discussing how the Hand ninja can stop their heartbeats to hide from their enemies. I can accept him being faster and stronger than he was before though, since that's what he says.

But a lot of context is being ignored here, it becomes clear that Matt is only there to reason with Frank, while Frank is hellbent on inflicting real damage, not only is this portrayed through the actual fight itself (Matt does not throw a single strike at first, rather just attempts to cool him down, which we see at 0:10, where Matt attempts to keep Frank back rather than attack him when he clearly had the opportunity to). If this isn't enough for you, there is also the dialogue in this scene:

I mean, I know Matt wasn't trying to necessarily hurt Frank, and I never implied otherwise. However, the facts that

a) Frank was handicapped due to his emotional state,

b) Frank's fighting style relies on tanking hits, and he gets tagged by basically everyone he fights,

c) and most of Frank's best skill feats come with the use of various weapons, none of which he had here

still hold true. I do think that the scene is intended to show that Matt is overall a better unarmed fighter than Frank, but it really doesn't show that Matt would casually curbstomp Frank at his best, IMO. I certainly can't imagine them writing a rematch between peak Frank and peak Matt where Matt curbs him in 10 seconds due to being "on a different tier". I would really attribute Matt outmaneuvering Frank to a speed advantage just as much as a skill advantage.

Once again though, you brought up a valid point about Frank's brutish combat style, whilst I disagree with Daisy being able to replicate the showing, this isn't something I want to press on, as I don't believe outmaneuvering Frank is enough to show a sizable skill advantage over Daisy, and that brings me onto Defenders Feats.

Okay, I guess we can just drop the topic of Matt vs Frank from now on then.

The main feat I'm going to use is a very specific showing which you probably saw coming, Matt's first fight against Black Sky, Matt lasts for a total of 45 seconds, and appears as quite clearly a more skilled fighter for a number of reasons:

  • Matt lands a lot more hits on BS than BS does on Matt, and his loss can mostly be accredited to her enhanced physicals, as she was able to take his hits without issue while a single strike from BS was enough to ragdoll Matt and daze him for a brief moment.
  • Matt was completely unarmed, and had been out of practice for quite some time (he gave up his vigilante life prior to Defenders), while BS was Armed, bloodlusted and turned into a killing machine prior to this.

Just as I saw this coming, I'm sure you already knew what I was going to counter with.

Elektra was clearly toying with Matt, as seen by the fact she took over 10 seconds to make a killing blow after kicking him into the wall. This was before Matt even said her name.

Heck, Elektra even said that she's had countless chances to kill Matt yet let him live because "the game is fun". She clearly enjoys fighting and allows fights to go along for longer then necessary because of that.

This isn't just against Matt - we can even see her fights against a Chaste soldier and Danny Rand in Defenders Episode 1 as more proof of this.

Against the Chaste fodder, she literally takes 40+ seconds to take him down (almost as long as it took her against Matt). In case you want to argue that Chaste fodder are just really impressive, that's clearly not the case considering that a 10 year old Elektra was able to take down 3 fully grown Chaste warriors in about a minute. So unless Black Sky is weaker than 10 year old Elektra, it's clear that she was purposely prolonging the fight.

It's a similar thing against Danny. She gets the drop on him, but instead of attacking him right away she waits till her turns around. When he's distracted by his wound, instead of finishing the fight off, she waits for him to respond - allowing him to tag her with an Iron Fist while she's just waving her swords around. As such, a fight she could have finished off in under a second lasts for nearly 20 seconds, ending with her retreating. It's clear that her mentality, even as the Black Sky, prevents her from fighting to her full potential in 1 on 1 battles, due to her propensity to drag things out.

When she did go all out against Matt, we all know what happened...

What makes this showing so impressive is that Black Sky has feats that trump any feat you've posted for Daisy. In this showing, Black Sky starts Unarmed and surrounded by 10 Hand Ninjas all wielding Swords, and she manages to take them all out within 10 seconds.

Elektra defeating 10 ninja isn't solely a skill feat because she's so physically powerful - it's also a feat for her stealth, speed, and endurance. Just like when 616 Spider-Man soloed an entire army, it's not solely a skill feat, the same applies for Elektra. We don't know how exactly Elektra defeated them, but we do know that she's far faster than they are (since she was a bullet timer) and that she was even able to ghost the Fingers of the Hand, who are obviously above fodder ninjas. For all we know, she ghosted them as soon as the lights went off, and then basically blitzed them. That's actually kinda supported by what we see on-screen, since there's a gap of nearly an entire second between this (we literally see the ninja right next to Elektra, close enough that their swords are ready to swing since she's within range of their weapons) at around 0.55 seconds and the first sound of combat we hear at around 1.4 seconds in. Unless you think it takes a second to move a sword, it's quite likely she ghosted them and then picked them off at her convenience.

If you want to take this solely as a skill feat for her, I assume that you're trying to imply that Matt himself could take down 10 hand ninja completely surrounding him in under 10 seconds without being tagged once. Even ignoring the context that Black Sky purposely enjoys prolonging fights, this claim quite clearly contradicts Matt's own showings against Hand ninja - of which he has many.

It's not even like I'm cherry-picking one or two low showings here... these are pretty much every single time he fights Hand ninja, and some of these are actually pretty impressive showings - like the one where he grounds 3 ninja in around 15 seconds without being tagged once. And yet, even in his best showings, he doesn't perform at even 1/3 of the level at which Black Sky performed against the ninja in that gif you brought up. You're also saying that Daredevil in late Daredevil Season 2 was a lot better than him in early Defenders, so that puts even more doubt on your claims, since a superior version of Daredevil can't perform at 1/3 of the level at which you're saying Defenders Daredevil was at.

Heck, the claim that Matt is better than Black Sky is further disqualified based on his showings against Nobu in Daredevil Season 2.

Overall, in terms of their track record in late Daredevil Season 2, Matt beats an unarmed Nobu twice. An armed Nobu beats Matt once, and has the upper hand on Matt again until Elektra comes in to double team him and beat him. Finally, an unarmed Nobu beats Matt and Elektra at the same time. Essentially, Nobu was winning against Matt three times (one of those wins being him soloing Matt + Elektra), while Matt was only ever able to beat him twice - both times when he was unarmed.

I don't think you'll contest that Nobu is clearly portrayed as significantly below the Black Sky (the ultimate weapon of the Hand), so your claim that rusty Defenders Matt > armed Black Sky in skill looks quite ridiculous when the superior late Daredevil Season 2 Matt has a losing track record against Nobu - and didn't even beat him once when he was armed.

1. You haven't yet provided a single showing from Melinda May that makes this impressive, only made a statement claiming she is experienced and agile, which obviously isn't enough to contend with Black Sky given the 10v1 feat outlined above.

I wasn't trying to scale Daisy to May... I was just using her training with Melinda May as an impressive accolade, since May is the most lethal agent SHIELD has ever seen. This feats mindset obsession smh...

2. Black Sky defeating 10 Hand Ninjas is undeniably way better than this, BS is facing 3x more opponents, she is facing better opponents (judging by what's been posted so far) and clears the scenario with just as much efficiency.

Honestly, I'd prefer to just say that these unremarkable fodder are around equal to each other and call it a day, since I really don't think that either have a consistent skill level that doesn't heavily depend on plot.

If you really wanna do this though...

Assuming HYDRA combat agents are approximately equal to SHIELD agents (since they were the same up until The Winter Soldier happened), I'd certainly say one is a lot better than a Hand ninja. Skye with nearly no training at all was able to effortlessly take down security guards, and even Fitz could take down Watchdog mercenaries. A fodder SHIELD agent with his memory wiped was able to casually catch thrown knives, and then throw them back with extreme accuracy. Just intent-wise, I doubt any of them would hold a candle to SHIELD/HYDRA STRIKE agents, based on their intended combat level - heck, one HYDRA/Cybertek operative held the upper hand against both at once, until Skye picked up a gun. And that wasn't even a STRIKE agent. If we wanna make this a chain: 1 STRIKE agent > Cybertek operative > Skye + Fitz > 2 mercs, which would put STRIKE agents comfortably above Hand ninja.

I do agree that beating 10 ninja is better than beating 3 HYDRA STRIKE agents, but considering that Daisy fought those 3 in an enclosed space with not much room to move, while Black Sky held a huge speed advantage and could have used stealth due to the lights going off, it's certainly not 3 times better. And there's also the fact that Matt can't beat 10 ninja like that...

Why is this relevant when the two Hunters in the video you provided were clearly unarmed, immortality and advanced technology don't correlate to combat skill.

I meant that they were made of advanced tech, and the fact that they're immortal means they would have had a lot of time to learn.

Having centuries of fighting experience would obviously make for a good combatant, but not to the point where we can just assume that this single combatant is comparable to Five Hand Ninjas, which they'd have to be for Daisy to be comparable to Black Sky in regards to skill (let alone Matt). They need feats for that.

Honestly, I would back a single Hunter against a decent number of ninja. We know they have a special Hunter level combat skills upgrade package, and this skill level has been shown plenty of times.

They've no-sold rifle bullets, fodderized the likes of Agent Sousa and Yoyo (twice), and even matched a heavily upgraded LMD/Chronicom custom-built version of Coulson - note how their hits were powerful enough to put significant dents into the walls of a heavily reinforced SHIELD compound (Area 51). Agent Sousa was able to easily take out 2 HYDRA agents on his own (I've already detailed why that's impressive). Yoyo was skilled enough to take down the likes of The Superior, an LMD of a highly trained Russian SVR agent, in single combat while struggling with controlling her new robot arms. Against the Chronicoms, Yoyo had further upgraded arms and a bit more training from Agent May, and yet still got wrecked. This is impressive since a Superior LMD was able to take the upper hand against Coulson (human Coulson, not LMD Coulson), forcing him to electrocute it to survive.

Talking about Coulson, he's been able to take out a high-ranking SHIELD assassin with his hands bound, stomp 3 Watchdogs in quick succession (Mack technically does the finishing blow on one), stomp 2 robbers, and take out two HYDRA agents while taken by surprise and reeling from the death of his girlfriend. A Chronicom was able to match a highly upgraded version of him.

I don't really like to do the scaling chains, so I won't make one (unless you really want me to), but just intent-wise, I'm sure you'd agree that the likes of Yoyo and/or Sousa could take down at least 2 Hand ninja. Considering how easily (and consistently) Chronicoms fodderized them, I think it's safe to say a Chronicom Hunter could take two of them (or both at the same time). As such, if you want to do the whole fodder scaling thing, saying a Chronicom is around the level of 4 ninja is a pretty safe (and conservative) estimate IMO, especially considering the huge physicals gap between Chronicom Hunters and ninja.

And yet, Daisy stomped 2 while tripping balls and with none of her senses working properly. When she was in better fighting condition, she stomped 3 at once while going untagged. That's certainly a feat I cannot see Matt replicating by any means.

And if you prefer quantity over quality of fodder, there's always Daisy's feat against Alisha to count on. Skye (before getting the vast majority of her training) was able to contend with 5 Alisha clones all at once, even having all 5 down on the ground for a moment (we see 4 clones down, and then Skye takes out the 5th). I've cropped out the part where they get back up and then overwhelm a tired Skye because I consider that to be more of an issue regarding Skye's poor striking (at the time) rather than due to her lack of skill - they wouldn't have been able to get back up against current Daisy with her far superior striking. I think this is even more impressive than taking on 5 regular enemies since all the Alisha clones essentially have perfect teamwork due to being the same person with the same mind. Alisha herself is decently impressive, able to stomp SHIELD agents on her own on more than one occasion. As such, I'd contend that a single Alisha could easily take down one Hand ninja - maybe even two, based on how easily she stomped SHIELD agents. I certainly don't think Matt has ever fought as well in a 5v1 as Skye did, and certainly not against fodder this good. When we consider that Daisy has improved leaps and bounds from where she was at that point in the show, that makes this showing even more impressive.

With that said, I think I've detailed more than one skill feat which I don't see Matt replicating - or at least with the ease that current Daisy could do them. And as such, I think Daisy has a pretty decent skill advantage here. Although, if I'm being honest, she really doesn't need it. Matt gets tagged by physically superior opponents all the time, even when he holds a solid skill edge (ex. fights against Fisk, Dex, Frank, etc). Daisy has better striking than any of those guys, and is a lot more skilled than them to boot. Considering that I don't think Matt will be in any shape to fight back after just a hit or two from Daisy (as I'll show soon), Daisy wouldn't need to be half as skilled as Matt in order to win this battle. The fact that she's more skilled is just a (very nice) bonus.

Speed Comparison:

According to Google, the average Longbow is 6 foot and 6 inches in length, this seems significantly lengthier than the Bows being used by the Hand Ninja, which were considerably smaller than the actual Ninjas themselves, so obviously a lot shorter than this.

I don't think it's fair that you've automatically assumed they were Longbows just going off visuals, when Recurve Bows can appear very basic and traditional, which you can find from a basic google images search.

Matt specifies that the ninjas are using longbows. So... yeah.

I'm fine taking the speed of the Arrows at 225fps, while the difference in speed in the Arrows / Grenade Launcher is 7.6m/s, the other factors of the feats are what make Matt's feat superior.

Longbows usually have speeds around 150fps... looking at this chart for multiple longbows, I think the max was 183fps and the min was 137fps. Even taking the maximum value, that's a difference of 25m/s, which is significant to say the least.

  1. Daisy only has to deflect one GL round.
  2. Matt is deflecting arrows fired from multiple archers simultaneously in the gif provided.
  3. Daisy had a 15-20 foot distance between her and the truck, giving her a lot more time to react.
  4. Matt has deflected Arrows at point blank range, around 3 feet at best (while suffering from the effects of a poison arrow shot at him from a surprise).

In the gif provided, it looks like Matt only deflects like 2 (or 3 at most) arrows. The others either miss or were directed at Elektra.

As for the distance, I'd say it's a lot more in Matt's case. He starts off like 30-40 feet away from the ninjas, and they stop shooting when he's like 20 feet away (sorry for the potato quality, that was the best youtube video I could find). So, if anything, that's an advantage in Daisy's favor.

The other feat you provide is better, since it was around like 5 feet I'd say. I don't think it's as good as Daisy's feat against Sinara though.

Better destructive capabilities does not make them faster, the mass of the orbs and the material are very relevant factors, and while not exactly quantifiable, I'd assume solid metal orbs of that size would be significantly harder and heavier than a Standard Arrow. I'm no physicist, so I have no idea how fast specifically it would have to be. But you can't claim that they're significantly faster than Arrows without accounting for the other factors, and the specific effects of each of these factors.

That's fair, but I asked @nwname if he could do a quick calc of the feat - I assume we can both agree that he's trustworthy and unbiased. According to him, the orbs were likely going at around 100m/s - which is nearly double the speed of those longbow arrows.

No Caption Provided

I already showed Daisy catching them, but she's also been able to dodge them without even looking in their direction - I think that being able to dodge a projectile that's twice as fast as longbow arrows without even looking is much more impressive than what you've shown for Matt.

Even better, Daisy has been able to time quakes - as vibrations in the air, they would move at the speed of sound, which is around 340m/s. This is far better than anything Matt has done, and just solidifies Daisy's speed advantage. Although we can honestly just drop this here; we both agree this is kind of a useless point of contention.

Daisy's Striking vs Matt's Durability:

This seems like a clear double standard, when it comes to Nobu's strikes, you're claiming only very specific strikes are actually powerful, but every strike Daisy lands in combat is as powerful as the kick you posted? You must see the fault in this, in an actual combat scenario Daisy isn't constantly going to be landing kicks of that caliber, that should go without saying, given that she'll be constantly pressured by Matt, the same applied when Matt fought against Nobu. Only difference is that Daisy will be even under more pressure given that Matt is way more skilled.

The difference is that Daisy sent the HYDRA agent flying through a door with a casual kick. The feats you cite for Nobu sending Matt flying really far were basically all specific moves using a spin-kick/pirouette or whatever you wanna call it. One was when Nobu punched Matt while he was already flying in the air, which is obviously a lot easier since a) Matt had no way to brace against the impact and b) there was no friction from the ground to resist the impact.

I may have missed something, so if you want to highlight Nobu's casual kicks/punches, those would be a lot more relevant to a comparison.

As for the skill thing... lol.

Nobu does hit similarly as hard as Daisy if not harder, and is capable of ragdolling grown men in a similar fashion to Daisy, however Nobu's kick clearly would have sent the opponent significantly further than Daisy's strike had he not been stopped by the wall. I believe this should account for Daisy's opponent taking a door down, as door hinges aren't known to be overly strong anyways.

LOL, Nobu hits nowhere close to as hard as Daisy... First of all, that feat is with a spin kick and not a regular kick like Daisy's feat. Secondly, I think you're heavily underestimating the amount of extra force needed to break down that door. It would take an exceptionally strong person to kick down a door with one direct hit... meanwhile, Daisy's kick sent her enemy flying even after breaking down the door. Distance-wise, Nobu's kick may have resulted in a slightly more, but considering how much impact the door would have absorbed, Daisy's kick would come out on top in terms of impact. Even just in terms of direct distance measurements, Daisy kicking Coulson and sending him flying is a lot more impressive than Nobu's feat, since Fitz confirmed Coulson would have hit the wall.

And I want to reiterate that Daisy's kick was completely casual while Nobu's was a spinning flip kick that would obviously be significantly more powerful than regular punches or kicks. Daisy also has better scaling based on taking down Kree, who have tanked hits from other Kree who in the same fight punches Daisy much further than what you showed for Nobu's attack.

I don't think Daisy being in a secure facility at the time of this feat automatically means that everything is going to be heavily armored and reinforced, the door visually did not seem this way, and it has never been implied in the show.

I would say that just visually, it certainly didn't seem like your normal wooden door to me, so I think it's a fair assumption that it's at least somewhat more reinforced than your average home door.

This feat is more equatable to Fisk's attacks on Matt however, where he creates a hole in a brick wall with a single punch, but both of these showings give a general idea of how powerful Fisk is.

I don't think breaking bricks is that impressive; regular martial artists can chop through brick. Bullets can do a lot more damage than what Fisk did as well, as shown here, here, and here.

And yeah, Daisy scales way above that. Even Coulson is able to casually smash through brick while holding back and crush metal pipes with his robot arm.

However, we've seen him struggle against Kree fodder, who no-sell Coulson's double-handed chair slam, and also quickly recover from a hit with his left (robot) arm (here's a slow mo version if it's unclear). And I already showed Daisy taking the Kree down with ease.

Furthermore, Fisk doesn't really have any impressive feats beyond the brick wall feat, which I've already stated isn't that great. I don't even recall him one-shotting regular dudes; heck, a bloodlusted Fisk literally had a hard time killing Anatoly who seemed to be a regular person physicals-wise. Daisy clearly strikes much much harder than that.

Is this supposed to be impressive? Because it really isn't. Tanking a single punch from a guy who you've posted no feats at all for is not a good durability showing, in fact the majority of peak humans could tank it. It's like if I used Matt tanking direct hits to the face from Danny Rand without any effects as a high level durability feat without posting a single striking feat for Danny. Luckily Danny does have striking feats though, such as ragdolling and one shotting Armored SWAT guys. This is a low end durability feat for Matt given the Nobu / Fisk showing discussed earlier, but is honestly just as good as the showing provided for the Kree.

I think the showings against Coulson's robot arm are more than enough to convince anyone that Kree are much more durable than Matt is. Coulson's robot arm >> Fisk, and Kree are completely untroubled by it, while Matt does take damage from Fisk's hits. However, Daisy didn't have much (if any) trouble taking them down.

And Daisy pretty consistently fodderizes enemies much more durable than Matt. If the Kree weren't enough, let's look at how she does against Remorath.

Remorath are clearly shown to be far more durable than Matt is, as seen below:

(all those links have sound)

On the other hand, a single pistol round (which didn't pierce the suit) one-shot Matt and basically made him unable to fight for an entire episode afterward. Clearly, Remorath are able to literally no-sell levels of concussive force that would instantly take down Matt, and yet Daisy has no issue taking them down. They're not unskilled either, as we've seen them dodge quake blasts (in one of the gifs above) and also shotgun bullets. This is certainly more impressive than any fodder Matt has fought.

With that said, I think that Daisy could honestly take Matt down in just about a couple hits. The stats difference is pretty insane here.

Daisy's Durability vs Matt's Striking:

I mean... I don't know how anyone can look at that and think it's marble but this isn't a feat I want to emphasize, as I believe Matt has much better strength and striking feats that clearly show she can harm Daisy. So moving on from here...

Seems like marble to me, but sure.

Once again I have to ask why is it impressive to one shot Deke? You posted no durability feats whatsoever so this is about as impressive as one shotting a random fodder. I noticed you implied that Matt can't take out regular human fodder this easily, which is just a ridiculous notion. A clean strike from a pro fighter is more often than not going to KO any IRL human who is on the receiving end, a strike from Daredevil... who can send grown men flying through the air with his strikes (a feat no IRL human is coming close to), is obviously going to be more impactful. Implying he can't one shot fodder is just wrong on every level, and the only reason it doesn't happen so often is because of the way fight scenes are written, as they aren't usually written to end so quickly (this isn't something exclusive to Daredevil).

I mean, I would say one-shotting named characters is a lot more impressive than one-shotting nameless fodder based on intent. I'm not really a fan of using scaling for this kind of feat, but since you wanted it - Deke has taken a beating from May (who was impaled through the leg, which explains the fact that she couldn't really avoid his attacks or kick him) who was wielding a crowbar to further increase her striking. May casually sends people flipping through the air with her punches and has been able to throw people even further than what you showed for Matt.

Considering all this, Matt definitely hits harder than Sinara, so tanking Sinara's hits doesn't necessarily mean Daisy can tank Matt's.

I'm not convinced Matt could one-shot Deke, especially considering he's taken a beating from the likes of Melinda May, who herself probably has better striking than Matt.

Just a side note, you also omitted the fact that Deke actually takes a strike from Sinara right before this, so it wasn't technically a one shot.

Fair enough. I think it was pretty clear that Sinara was extremely casual in terms of her strikes against Deke though, so I'm sure she could have one-shotted him with more focused strikes.

This is a pretty good feat but ultimately only a single attack, Matt has broken a metal door lock before with a strike, while not as thick as the railing it is good enough to prove he can wear down Daisy over time.

I mean, it also doubles as a feat showing what Sinara is capable of. Daisy took a whole beating from her, and she's clearly massively more powerful than Matt is. Matt's feat was with a flimsy (and probably extremely rusted) padlock, and he needed to do a full-on spin kick (which would clearly be significantly more powerful than a regular kick) just to break that.

This isn't true, at all, Matt is the only character who I believe has KO'd Frank thus far:

Fair enough, but that was technically by choking him out with a metal chain, not with his strikes. So it's not really relevant whatsoever in this situation since Matt doesn't have a chain to use.

Regardless of this, I've posted more feats now that clearly prove that Matt is more than capable of dishing out damage. Given that Daisy's durability feats aren't that good anyway.

I mean, Daisy might not no-sell his hits just based on intent, but I don't really see Matt doing any real damage to her based on her feat tanking a beating from Sinara who is massively more powerful than Matt. Sinara casually stomped someone who took a beating from someone who probably hits harder than Matt, lol.

And that's not even Daisy's best durability feat - to take things up a notch, how about her taking a direct strike from Sinara's orbs, which as I've shown before can break concrete and shatter regular human skulls. Even Fisk had trouble shattering someone's skull - and I'm sure you'd agree that he hits harder than Matt.

Conclusion:

There's really not much to say here IMO. I think Daisy holds significant advantages in every single area worth discussing, with her most notable advantages being in terms of durability and striking power. It's hard to see Matt putting her down within any reasonable timeframe, while I don't think Daisy would require more than a couple solid hits to take him out. Furthermore, she also holds solid skill and speed advantages that will ensure she lands more hits than he does. With what's been shown so far, I don't think Matt has any way to win this fight, but I'm interested to see what you'll bring up in your response. Good luck!

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