Matt is definitely decisively superior to Frank by the end of Season 2, not only is this supported by the fight posted by KoL, but also by Matt's In Universe improvement throughout Season 2, primarily due to his experience fighting the Hand. This has been explicitly stated by Charlie Cox, the actor who plays Daredevil, who states that due to the versatility of the Hand:
It forces Matt to really hone his skills, he has to be better, faster, stronger than he's ever been before.
Charlie Cox
This would only make it more logical for Matt to be able to dispose of Frank quite easily by the end of the Season, given that near the start of the Season, he was essentially an equal to Frank. But back on this specific showing:
I mean, in the interview you linked, Charlie Cox is clearly talking about Matt honing his skills with his enhanced senses - they're talking about how the Hand can hide their heartbeats, so Matt has to learn to detect their weapons (and later, their breathing patterns). I don't see how martial arts skills are relevant at all when discussing how the Hand ninja can stop their heartbeats to hide from their enemies. I can accept him being faster and stronger than he was before though, since that's what he says.
But a lot of context is being ignored here, it becomes clear that Matt is only there to reason with Frank, while Frank is hellbent on inflicting real damage, not only is this portrayed through the actual fight itself (Matt does not throw a single strike at first, rather just attempts to cool him down, which we see at 0:10, where Matt attempts to keep Frank back rather than attack him when he clearly had the opportunity to). If this isn't enough for you, there is also the dialogue in this scene:
I mean, I know Matt wasn't trying to necessarily hurt Frank, and I never implied otherwise. However, the facts that
a) Frank was handicapped due to his emotional state,
b) Frank's fighting style relies on tanking hits, and he gets tagged by basically everyone he fights,
c) and most of Frank's best skill feats come with the use of various weapons, none of which he had here
still hold true. I do think that the scene is intended to show that Matt is overall a better unarmed fighter than Frank, but it really doesn't show that Matt would casually curbstomp Frank at his best, IMO. I certainly can't imagine them writing a rematch between peak Frank and peak Matt where Matt curbs him in 10 seconds due to being "on a different tier". I would really attribute Matt outmaneuvering Frank to a speed advantage just as much as a skill advantage.
Once again though, you brought up a valid point about Frank's brutish combat style, whilst I disagree with Daisy being able to replicate the showing, this isn't something I want to press on, as I don't believe outmaneuvering Frank is enough to show a sizable skill advantage over Daisy, and that brings me onto Defenders Feats.
Okay, I guess we can just drop the topic of Matt vs Frank from now on then.
The main feat I'm going to use is a very specific showing which you probably saw coming, Matt's first fight against Black Sky, Matt lasts for a total of 45 seconds, and appears as quite clearly a more skilled fighter for a number of reasons:
- Matt lands a lot more hits on BS than BS does on Matt, and his loss can mostly be accredited to her enhanced physicals, as she was able to take his hits without issue while a single strike from BS was enough to ragdoll Matt and daze him for a brief moment.
- Matt was completely unarmed, and had been out of practice for quite some time (he gave up his vigilante life prior to Defenders), while BS was Armed, bloodlusted and turned into a killing machine prior to this.
Just as I saw this coming, I'm sure you already knew what I was going to counter with.
Elektra was clearly toying with Matt, as seen by the fact she took over 10 seconds to make a killing blow after kicking him into the wall. This was before Matt even said her name.
Heck, Elektra even said that she's had countless chances to kill Matt yet let him live because "the game is fun". She clearly enjoys fighting and allows fights to go along for longer then necessary because of that.
This isn't just against Matt - we can even see her fights against a Chaste soldier and Danny Rand in Defenders Episode 1 as more proof of this.
Against the Chaste fodder, she literally takes 40+ seconds to take him down (almost as long as it took her against Matt). In case you want to argue that Chaste fodder are just really impressive, that's clearly not the case considering that a 10 year old Elektra was able to take down 3 fully grown Chaste warriors in about a minute. So unless Black Sky is weaker than 10 year old Elektra, it's clear that she was purposely prolonging the fight.
It's a similar thing against Danny. She gets the drop on him, but instead of attacking him right away she waits till her turns around. When he's distracted by his wound, instead of finishing the fight off, she waits for him to respond - allowing him to tag her with an Iron Fist while she's just waving her swords around. As such, a fight she could have finished off in under a second lasts for nearly 20 seconds, ending with her retreating. It's clear that her mentality, even as the Black Sky, prevents her from fighting to her full potential in 1 on 1 battles, due to her propensity to drag things out.
When she did go all out against Matt, we all know what happened...
What makes this showing so impressive is that Black Sky has feats that trump any feat you've posted for Daisy. In this showing, Black Sky starts Unarmed and surrounded by 10 Hand Ninjas all wielding Swords, and she manages to take them all out within 10 seconds.
Elektra defeating 10 ninja isn't solely a skill feat because she's so physically powerful - it's also a feat for her stealth, speed, and endurance. Just like when 616 Spider-Man soloed an entire army, it's not solely a skill feat, the same applies for Elektra. We don't know how exactly Elektra defeated them, but we do know that she's far faster than they are (since she was a bullet timer) and that she was even able to ghost the Fingers of the Hand, who are obviously above fodder ninjas. For all we know, she ghosted them as soon as the lights went off, and then basically blitzed them. That's actually kinda supported by what we see on-screen, since there's a gap of nearly an entire second between this (we literally see the ninja right next to Elektra, close enough that their swords are ready to swing since she's within range of their weapons) at around 0.55 seconds and the first sound of combat we hear at around 1.4 seconds in. Unless you think it takes a second to move a sword, it's quite likely she ghosted them and then picked them off at her convenience.
If you want to take this solely as a skill feat for her, I assume that you're trying to imply that Matt himself could take down 10 hand ninja completely surrounding him in under 10 seconds without being tagged once. Even ignoring the context that Black Sky purposely enjoys prolonging fights, this claim quite clearly contradicts Matt's own showings against Hand ninja - of which he has many.
It's not even like I'm cherry-picking one or two low showings here... these are pretty much every single time he fights Hand ninja, and some of these are actually pretty impressive showings - like the one where he grounds 3 ninja in around 15 seconds without being tagged once. And yet, even in his best showings, he doesn't perform at even 1/3 of the level at which Black Sky performed against the ninja in that gif you brought up. You're also saying that Daredevil in late Daredevil Season 2 was a lot better than him in early Defenders, so that puts even more doubt on your claims, since a superior version of Daredevil can't perform at 1/3 of the level at which you're saying Defenders Daredevil was at.
Heck, the claim that Matt is better than Black Sky is further disqualified based on his showings against Nobu in Daredevil Season 2.
Overall, in terms of their track record in late Daredevil Season 2, Matt beats an unarmed Nobu twice. An armed Nobu beats Matt once, and has the upper hand on Matt again until Elektra comes in to double team him and beat him. Finally, an unarmed Nobu beats Matt and Elektra at the same time. Essentially, Nobu was winning against Matt three times (one of those wins being him soloing Matt + Elektra), while Matt was only ever able to beat him twice - both times when he was unarmed.
I don't think you'll contest that Nobu is clearly portrayed as significantly below the Black Sky (the ultimate weapon of the Hand), so your claim that rusty Defenders Matt > armed Black Sky in skill looks quite ridiculous when the superior late Daredevil Season 2 Matt has a losing track record against Nobu - and didn't even beat him once when he was armed.
1. You haven't yet provided a single showing from Melinda May that makes this impressive, only made a statement claiming she is experienced and agile, which obviously isn't enough to contend with Black Sky given the 10v1 feat outlined above.
I wasn't trying to scale Daisy to May... I was just using her training with Melinda May as an impressive accolade, since May is the most lethal agent SHIELD has ever seen. This feats mindset obsession smh...
2. Black Sky defeating 10 Hand Ninjas is undeniably way better than this, BS is facing 3x more opponents, she is facing better opponents (judging by what's been posted so far) and clears the scenario with just as much efficiency.
Honestly, I'd prefer to just say that these unremarkable fodder are around equal to each other and call it a day, since I really don't think that either have a consistent skill level that doesn't heavily depend on plot.
If you really wanna do this though...
Assuming HYDRA combat agents are approximately equal to SHIELD agents (since they were the same up until The Winter Soldier happened), I'd certainly say one is a lot better than a Hand ninja. Skye with nearly no training at all was able to effortlessly take down security guards, and even Fitz could take down Watchdog mercenaries. A fodder SHIELD agent with his memory wiped was able to casually catch thrown knives, and then throw them back with extreme accuracy. Just intent-wise, I doubt any of them would hold a candle to SHIELD/HYDRA STRIKE agents, based on their intended combat level - heck, one HYDRA/Cybertek operative held the upper hand against both at once, until Skye picked up a gun. And that wasn't even a STRIKE agent. If we wanna make this a chain: 1 STRIKE agent > Cybertek operative > Skye + Fitz > 2 mercs, which would put STRIKE agents comfortably above Hand ninja.
I do agree that beating 10 ninja is better than beating 3 HYDRA STRIKE agents, but considering that Daisy fought those 3 in an enclosed space with not much room to move, while Black Sky held a huge speed advantage and could have used stealth due to the lights going off, it's certainly not 3 times better. And there's also the fact that Matt can't beat 10 ninja like that...
Why is this relevant when the two Hunters in the video you provided were clearly unarmed, immortality and advanced technology don't correlate to combat skill.
I meant that they were made of advanced tech, and the fact that they're immortal means they would have had a lot of time to learn.
Having centuries of fighting experience would obviously make for a good combatant, but not to the point where we can just assume that this single combatant is comparable to Five Hand Ninjas, which they'd have to be for Daisy to be comparable to Black Sky in regards to skill (let alone Matt). They need feats for that.
Honestly, I would back a single Hunter against a decent number of ninja. We know they have a special Hunter level combat skills upgrade package, and this skill level has been shown plenty of times.
They've no-sold rifle bullets, fodderized the likes of Agent Sousa and Yoyo (twice), and even matched a heavily upgraded LMD/Chronicom custom-built version of Coulson - note how their hits were powerful enough to put significant dents into the walls of a heavily reinforced SHIELD compound (Area 51). Agent Sousa was able to easily take out 2 HYDRA agents on his own (I've already detailed why that's impressive). Yoyo was skilled enough to take down the likes of The Superior, an LMD of a highly trained Russian SVR agent, in single combat while struggling with controlling her new robot arms. Against the Chronicoms, Yoyo had further upgraded arms and a bit more training from Agent May, and yet still got wrecked. This is impressive since a Superior LMD was able to take the upper hand against Coulson (human Coulson, not LMD Coulson), forcing him to electrocute it to survive.
Talking about Coulson, he's been able to take out a high-ranking SHIELD assassin with his hands bound, stomp 3 Watchdogs in quick succession (Mack technically does the finishing blow on one), stomp 2 robbers, and take out two HYDRA agents while taken by surprise and reeling from the death of his girlfriend. A Chronicom was able to match a highly upgraded version of him.
I don't really like to do the scaling chains, so I won't make one (unless you really want me to), but just intent-wise, I'm sure you'd agree that the likes of Yoyo and/or Sousa could take down at least 2 Hand ninja. Considering how easily (and consistently) Chronicoms fodderized them, I think it's safe to say a Chronicom Hunter could take two of them (or both at the same time). As such, if you want to do the whole fodder scaling thing, saying a Chronicom is around the level of 4 ninja is a pretty safe (and conservative) estimate IMO, especially considering the huge physicals gap between Chronicom Hunters and ninja.
And yet, Daisy stomped 2 while tripping balls and with none of her senses working properly. When she was in better fighting condition, she stomped 3 at once while going untagged. That's certainly a feat I cannot see Matt replicating by any means.
And if you prefer quantity over quality of fodder, there's always Daisy's feat against Alisha to count on. Skye (before getting the vast majority of her training) was able to contend with 5 Alisha clones all at once, even having all 5 down on the ground for a moment (we see 4 clones down, and then Skye takes out the 5th). I've cropped out the part where they get back up and then overwhelm a tired Skye because I consider that to be more of an issue regarding Skye's poor striking (at the time) rather than due to her lack of skill - they wouldn't have been able to get back up against current Daisy with her far superior striking. I think this is even more impressive than taking on 5 regular enemies since all the Alisha clones essentially have perfect teamwork due to being the same person with the same mind. Alisha herself is decently impressive, able to stomp SHIELD agents on her own on more than one occasion. As such, I'd contend that a single Alisha could easily take down one Hand ninja - maybe even two, based on how easily she stomped SHIELD agents. I certainly don't think Matt has ever fought as well in a 5v1 as Skye did, and certainly not against fodder this good. When we consider that Daisy has improved leaps and bounds from where she was at that point in the show, that makes this showing even more impressive.
With that said, I think I've detailed more than one skill feat which I don't see Matt replicating - or at least with the ease that current Daisy could do them. And as such, I think Daisy has a pretty decent skill advantage here. Although, if I'm being honest, she really doesn't need it. Matt gets tagged by physically superior opponents all the time, even when he holds a solid skill edge (ex. fights against Fisk, Dex, Frank, etc). Daisy has better striking than any of those guys, and is a lot more skilled than them to boot. Considering that I don't think Matt will be in any shape to fight back after just a hit or two from Daisy (as I'll show soon), Daisy wouldn't need to be half as skilled as Matt in order to win this battle. The fact that she's more skilled is just a (very nice) bonus.
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