Living Tribunal vs Battler Ushiromiya

Living Tribunal

Battler Ushiromiya

Rules:

• Composite marvel cosmology
• High-balled Umineko cosmology

Fight!

Maybe interested: @rothschild_banker@zgtfreak@supermanthor@ovy7

See, LT is equal or at best a tiny bit above Battler in finite power. The problem with that is Battler's hax would still work on LT, such as tanking everything LT has via Endless Nine, which tanked multiple Quantum Infinite-D conceptual attacks with no difficulty.

Then we have Battler's Longsword, which conceptually destroys the its target, while also destroying the concept of evading said attack, defending, buying time, ect. (I'll need to re-find the scan later.)

This as well:

And this is only a small amount of his arsenal. LT has no way to defend or put him down.

In short: Battler wins low to no-diff (depending on if he chooses to fist fight LT or immediately start reality warping).

HOWEVER, this is ASSUMING you are using EoS (End of Series) Battler, who got massively amped beyond infinite-D Voyagers. LT stomps normal Battler, as he is not infinite-D at all.

battler stpmps

LT

@zgtfreak: Which volume is it from. I could only fi d the one where Beato was remade and married Battler in the end.

@johnsmjs36: Which volume is what from exactly?

Still LT

@supermanthor: Why is that? Just curious...

@zgtfreak said:

See, LT is equal or at best a tiny bit above Battler in finite power. The problem with that is Battler's hax would still work on LT, such as tanking everything LT has via Endless Nine, which tanked multiple Quantum Infinite-D conceptual attacks with no difficulty.

Then we have Battler's Longsword, which conceptually destroys the its target, while also destroying the concept of evading said attack, defending, buying time, ect. (I'll need to re-find the scan later.)

This as well:

And this is only a small amount of his arsenal. LT has no way to defend or put him down.

In short: Battler wins low to no-diff (depending on if he chooses to fist fight LT or immediately start reality warping).

HOWEVER, this is ASSUMING you are using EoS (End of Series) Battler, who got massively amped beyond infinite-D Voyagers. LT stomps normal Battler, as he is not infinite-D at all.

Well, I'm still forming an opinion. To consider the winner in multiversal, megaversal and metaversal debates is probaly subjective, IF OPPONENT A SURPASSES OPPONENT B BY AN FINITE AMOUNT. A few say: ''Hax doesn't matter, Opponent A, even if he is just a little bit more powerful than opponent B wins, even if opponent B has better hax''. Or a few say, what you say. Not clear winner here probaly.

@zgtfreak And yes, I'm assuming EoS game battler.

@zgtfreak: because I am a fanboy lol

BUMP

@zgtfreak: That scene

battler stomps

Battler loses.

@johnsmjs36: Episode 8, Chapter 32.

BUMP

Battler

Battler stomps and then solos Marvel, just because he can.

Featwise, pretty much. Even mid-balled can easily win. His hax ''endless nine'' can instantly shut down LT's abilities. He already could do that with beings that have authority over an infinite-D multiverse, so basically beings with the same authority and raw power like LT. Battler haxes him too death.

Battler

As far as what i've read so far from the Battler vs CAS thread, where battler dominated CAS by a wide margin and by good reasons featwise. I would say Battler Ushi takes this. IMO

Battler wipes the floor with the verse as it stands now. Marvel is not relevant to him. His hax shred. Outdated thread.

More or less this. Oh yeah, some extra info, a composite Lucifer is actually legit now, Presence being confrimed as being omnipotent and beyond all in current DC canon: just thought you would be interested.

@anaverageguy123: Oh, thank you. Yes, that's great to know.

As an exchange of info... I just read Umineko: Saku/Last Note of the Golden Witch, which was a new 2 hour installment after EP8. No spoilers here, but Aurora should be a lot closer to composite Lucifer now (though still below him). I'd put her above Michael and Specter now. There was plenty of evidence and dialogue that backed up Battler>Aurora via hax and her own admission of being unable to interfere him, but that was apparently a lie. She creates and is the foundation upon which the verse exist (outside of seemingly the ladder itself stemming from the Creator), which would include its absolute concepts and everything. Not being above Battler's hax is what really prevented her from reaching that true level of existence that Lucifer and the gang are at, but with that out of the way, When They Cry has reached new heights. Her being above Battler does not make him weaker than initially thought though. It just makes her a lot higher.

@zgtfreak: Oh, you read Last Note? Sweet! Where do you put Piece?

Look LT doesn't fight unless he is supposed to so to make this simple cause he really can't use him in a fight If the opponent is breaking the laws of reality or seeks to break them they will lose. If not he isn't allowed too so no Battler loses.
I mean what is the most powerful thing he's no

@chaosinc: Where the first scan come from?

@doctor223: The Mysterious World of Doctor Stange.

I would say Battler beacuse of his hax , but overall the're almost equal so anyone higher than TLT would probably mop the floor with battler ngl.

No offense, but why do most multiversal Marvel debaters not know how these debates work and throw out the most vague random things as reasons that their characters win? I haven't mentioned all the stuff Battler can do, but him swinging his Golden Longsword once solos the verse, as it is an evolved version of the Red Key (since it carries the Golden Truth), which has these properties:

And Keys operate on the level of Truths, which are truly absolute conceptual abilities:

Aka the highest level a concept can reach in terms of raw potency.

I'm going to ignore Endless Nine. I'm going to ignore Truths. All I want is a legitimate answer on why LT and anyone in Marvel is surviving one swing of the Golden Longsword. They can't dodge it, they can't tank/endure it, they can't reverse the attack or them dying via time reversal, ect. All they can do is get hit and die.

Arguments like "He's the judge of the multiverse" or "He's way above other multiversal abstracts" are irrelevant. Marvel has no hax beyond basic barebones conceptual destruction and creation that are also not on an absolute level. Plus even in terms of raw power (as irrelevant as it is at Umineko's level of hax) Marvel is nowhere near Battler afaIk. So again...

What.

Can.

They.

Do?

@chaosinc@damnineedabreak@tonystark6999

@zgtfreak: While I am no expert on Marvel, I am aware the Living Tribunal scales above what is essentially Jung's Collective Unconscious which contains archetypal necessities that which forms all sorts of mathematics philosophies, etc:

https://imgur.com/a/aPbSRvB

This is what Jung had to say on the Archetypes and the Collective Unconscious:

The collective unconscious—so far as we can say anything about it at all—appears to consist of mythological motifs or primordial images, for which reason the myths of all nations are its real exponents. In fact, the whole of mythology could be taken as a sort of projection of the collective unconscious. . . Just as the constellations were projected into the heavens, similar figures were projected into legends and fairy tales or upon historical persons. We can therefore study the collective unconscious in two ways, either in mythology or in the analysis of the individual.

So here everything that is believed or formed by the Archetypes exist as a reality within the Collective Unconscious.

We consider that the unconscious, as the totality of all archetypes, is the deposit of all human experience right back to its remotest beginings. Not, indeed, a dead deposit, a sort of abandoned rubbish heap, but a living system...It contains the whole spiritual heritage of mankind's evolution, born anew in the brain structure of every individual...The unconscious is the source of the instinctual forces of the psyche and of the terms or categories that regulate them, namely the archetypes. This is particularily true of religion ideas, but the central concepts of science, philosophy, and ethics are no exception to this rule...

Here it is rather explicitly named that the Archetypes are the ultimate framework to all sorts of thoughts and concepts which all exist collectively within the unconscious. So something like Platonism exist in the Unconscious and is regulated by the Archetypes.

...The archetype itself (nota bene not the archetypal representation!) is a psychoid, i.e., transcendental and thus relatively beyond the categories of number, space, and time. That means it approximates to oneness and immutability. Owning to the liberation from the categories of consciousness the archetype can be the basis of meaningful coincidence.

Here it confrims them as transcendental concepts that which all other concepts are modelled upon. Imo, this sounds oddly familar like the Umineko Truths in their absolution. Note that the Living Tribunal scales above the Dreamtime that was mentioned in the scan above, hence he should be able to give Battler a decent fight given all things.

@zgtfreak:Well I did try to ask for feats but MB, Cause there isn't really a level he is literally 2nd most powerful being in Marvel all cosmic and magic power is just his to control.
Battler existing in itself means he loses cause LT literally owns you by own order of The One above all.

The power of the card is just power and as stated he is equal to none and suppressed by one,

The Living Tribunal is beyond existence

they'd have to basically be the one above all like actual omnipotent to beat him.

LT is literally all concepts in one they are a part of him. to kill him is to kill all living things,Kill all time and space, kill dead and even oblivion.

The fact those weapons exist suggests they are thing more powerful than this guy and if he has to tap into a power that he didn't create he loses.

So unless your character can exist without even being created he loses here.

@anaverageguy123: Contradictions arise when LT dies to the Beyonders, gets absorbed by Thanos, ect. He is still bound to many concepts. The fact he can die from seemingly basic attacks and has shown no complex manipulation of concepts leads me to believe he's helpless against the first swing. And the fact that LT is beyond these archetypes despite his fodder showings makes me question the legitimacy of this collective unconscious as a whole. It wouldn't be the first time Marvel has tried to incorperate philisophical metaphysics and screwed it up.

Oh, and I'll get to your PM in a bit.

@chaosinc: Well I did try to ask for feats but MB, Cause there isn't really a level he is literally 2nd most powerful being in Marvel

Too bad that Marvel is not impressive anymore.

all cosmic and magic power is just his to control.

You assume magic works the same across all of fiction it doesn't.

Battler existing in itself means he loses cause LT literally owns you by own order of The One above all.

The power of the card is just power and as stated he is equal to none and suppressed by one,

LT got killed by the Beyonders, rekt by Protege, and absorbed by Thanos so no. Hell, TOAA got rekt by Thanos too and has an evil non-omnipotent evil counterpart. Battler kills him too.

The Living Tribunal is beyond existence

Beyond existence is worthless without context. All of existence also varies in many ways. All of existence in When They Cry includes a permanent archetypal ladder created by, stemming from, leading towards, and ending at the omnipotent god of the verse. A ladder that Battler is on and close to the top of when counting his CoB self. All of existence in WTC also contains absolute concepts, which I still believe that Marvel doesn't have.

LT is literally all concepts in one they are a part of him. to kill him is to kill all living things,Kill all time and space, kill dead and even oblivion.

Yet he loses all the time to fodder. And wiping out lesser concepts would be absurdly easy for Battler to do.

Again, no offense, but this is what I don't get about multiversal Marvel debaters... They ignore all anti-feats and give their characters powers they don't have.

Battler one shots the verse with one swing and proceeds to go beat up TOAA for fun.

@tonystark6999@brucerogers Since you two are like Gods when it comes to Marvel, do you have anything to add or correct?

@zgtfreak: Just questioning, if this is a Composite version of LT, don't we ignore anti-feats and take the highest end of him throughout the entire history of Marvel?

Umm

I might be missing on something here

But why is "Cant dodge" hax supposed to be impressive against someone whose authority exceeds space time again?

@anaverageguy123: All the rules state is composite cosmology, not composite LT. And I never thought that composite disregards all anti-feats, but even so, he's still not impressive to me. I use to think Marvel was powerful, but they just honestly aren't. At the end of the day... even if LT's conceptual powers hypothetically were at an absolute archetypal level, he is still bound to concepts like death, absorption, ect. Combine that with the fact he has not shown to be manipulating extremely complex concepts like truth itself, the absolute concept of denial (like Battler's Endless Nine that denies virtually all concepts), denying concepts like evasion, persistence, time reversal, ect to prevent survival of attacks, ect.

^ This. Also when writers forget what these powerhouses are supposed to represent and create continuity problems. Like when LT just before secret wars was said to be "the multiverse taken form" by hank, but literally shortly after in ultimates, after his revival and the rebirth of 616, he was revealed to be just a function within ultimate eternity who is just the embodiment of the multiverse. It's just silly honestly.

@anaverageguy123

I'm like 99% sure that the strongest version of LT was when Adam warlock took on the role. He said that he could deal with the beyonders if a threat like them ever were to come up again.

@kilgpmktra said:

@zgtfreak said:

@anaverageguy123: Contradictions arise when LT dies to the Beyonders, gets absorbed by Thanos, ect. He is still bound to many concepts. The fact he can die from seemingly basic attacks and has shown no complex manipulation of concepts leads me to believe he's helpless against the first swing. And the fact that LT is beyond these archetypes despite his fodder showings makes me question the legitimacy of this collective unconscious as a whole. It wouldn't be the first time Marvel has tried to incorperate philisophical metaphysics and screwed it up.

Oh, and I'll get to your PM in a bit.

^ This. Also when writers forget what these powerhouses are supposed to represent and create continuity problems. Like when LT just before secret wars was said to be "the multiverse taken form" by hank, but literally shortly after in ultimates, after his revival and the rebirth of 616, he was revealed to be just a function within ultimate eternity who is just the embodiment of the multiverse. It's just silly honestly.

@anaverageguy123

I'm like 99% sure that the strongest version of LT was when Adam warlock took on the role. He said that he could deal with the beyonders if a threat like them ever were to come up again.

Huh, alright then, fair enough, thanks Klig.

@kilgpmktra: I remember that LT was said to be above Eternity in a bit current Dr. Strange comic

@lmaolmaolmao: Authority is a vague term. And he shouldn't be above all forms of space-time, all things considered. Like he died to the Beyonders who IIRC, can't even time travel.

Yeah, the narration did say that he was the overseer of the multiverse but that's what I mean with these guys . First he's the embodiment, then he's the safeguard function within it, now he's the overseer. I guess it was a soft retcon to the events after secret wars. Lifebringer galactus was still recognized as being a thing though in a very recent FF comic (I know he turned back to the devour of worlds in Infinity Countdown) which leads me to believe that some writers just aren't on board with certain representations of characters and are just doing their own thing with them and just aren't respecting continuity.

@anaverageguy123 Np

Are you saying Umineko characters are absolutely above Death?Cause I am sure that isn't the case if Featherine decides to kill one of them

Well that Anti Feat is quite lame tbh.But I believe LT at his peak composite ignoring anti feats should trivialise that version from what I know

@kilgpmktra: I see