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#1 Posted by deactivated-5cc88dc0cd01c (422 posts) - - Show Bio

Live Action Street Tier Tournament R1 : JSDoctor vs Defiant_Will



  • Oliver Queen (Earth 1)
  • Oliver Queen (Earth X)


  • Basic Knowledge (Wiki Page) (8)
  • 1 hour of prep anywhere (4)
  • 1 hour of prep on battlefield (1)
  • Sword (2) - For E-1 Oliver Queen
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  • MCU Shuri
  • MCU Nakia
  • MCU Okoye


  • Perfect Teamwork (3)
  • Mind link (3)
  • DCEU Deadshot's accuracy (8) (Nakia)

Rules :

  • Feats from tie-in comics are allowed so long as they're canon.
  • Victory by submission, KO, or death.
  • All characters are in characters.
  • Characters are armed with their standard gear.
  • Prep takes place in a combined universe.
  • If you choose a gear perk for a character that has never used the gear, they will not automatically have mastery over the gear.
  • No outside help is allowed.
  • Starting distance is 100 feet. Out of view from the other team. Opposite sides of a dark warehouse.
  • Fight takes place at night.
  • 2-3 posts each with a 15 day limit per post. You'll be bumped after every 7 days.

General CaV Rules:

  • Since this is a CaV, it is just a one-on-one debate on which character would win this battle. Please refrain from posting your opinion on who would win until the battle is complete. Other comments are fine, however.
  • Ask to be tagged, or simply comment "T4V" if you'd like to be tagged when voting commences. When voting, vote for who you think gave a better argument or represented their character better, NOT who you personally think is more powerful. Also, please give a brief justification for why you chose the person you did. Your vote might not be counted if you do not justify it.
  • Enjoy the debate! :]
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#2 Posted by geekryan (4719 posts) - - Show Bio


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#3 Posted by BladeOfFury (3122 posts) - - Show Bio

T4V please

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#4 Posted by The_Red_Devil (4952 posts) - - Show Bio


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#5 Posted by JSDoctor (1645 posts) - - Show Bio

@defiant_will: Seems like we're up against each other in another tourney round. I'm happy to open or to go second, so just let me know what you'd prefer.

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#6 Edited by Defiant_Will (1175 posts) - - Show Bio

@jsdoctor: Since you have prep, can you go first?

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#7 Posted by JSDoctor (1645 posts) - - Show Bio

@jsdoctor: Since you have prep, can you go first?

Sounds good - I'll try to have my post up relatively soon.

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#8 Posted by deactivated-5cc073360931e (791 posts) - - Show Bio

Tag after each post

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#9 Posted by JSDoctor (1645 posts) - - Show Bio

Green Arrow & Dark Arrow

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In this opener I'm going to give an overview of my team and what their strategy for this battle will be. First, I'll give general introductions to them both and go over their abilities, gear and perks. I'll then explain how they'll use their two hours of prep time in this battle - the first of which will take place in Earth-1 Oliver's bunker, and the second of which will take place on the battlefield. In this section I'll also explore the relevance of the prep to taking down Okoye, Nakia and Shuri.

After that, I'll go into detail on how the battle may unfold beyond what my team accomplishes in prep. I'll explore the possibility of them using stealth, and then look at my team's numerous advantages should the fight become a ranged battle. Finally I'll show why they'd win decisively in a melee fight, thus giving them the advantage however this battle takes place.

Characters & Perks

My first combatant is Earth-1 Oliver Queen. After his boat, the Queen's Gambit, was sabotaged, he was stranded on the island of Lian Yu. Over the course of 5 years on this island, with time also spent in China and Russia, Oliver became a master combatant, marksman and strategist. Formidable fighters such as Yao Fei, Shado, Slade Wilson, Talia al Ghul and more moulded him into a master combatant known as "Kapuishon", or "The Hood." Oliver spent 3 years under this identity before a stint undercover with the League of Assassins, where he trained with the Head of the Demon, Ra's al Ghul himself. Following this boost to his abilities, he returned to Star City as the Green Arrow.

My other combatant is Earth-X Oliver Queen. Little is known about his background, but he rose through the ranks of the New Reich on his world to become its Fürher. He shares Earth-1 Oliver's skill set, which he demonstrated when he came to Earth-1 seeking to take down Supergirl and transplant her heart into his wife - Overgirl, the Kara Danvers of Earth-X.

I'd like to point out here, right off the bat, that my characters have the same skillset and are equals in all aspects of combat. E-1 Oliver referred his Dark counterpart as "matching [him] shot for shot". They fought each other on equal footing twice in close-quarters combat, and indeed the entire premise of the Crisis on Earth-X crossover was that the heroes were struggling to defeat enemy whom they could only stalemate, and not defeat, in combat. We even saw this when E-1 Oliver predicted the strategy of E-X Oliver, stating that "it's exactly what I would do". The point I'm trying to make is that my characters are complete equals - other than a couple of slight differences in gear, they can replicate each others' showings and feats. Therefore, all feats that I present for one of them should be considered as valid for both of them. I am essentially debating in favour of 2x Oliver Queen. I very much doubt that my opponent will dispute this, though I can provide even more evidence for it in the unlikely event that he does.

Having established the parity of my characters to each other, I now want to introduce my team's perks:

  • 1 hour of prep time anywhere - This will be used primarily to gather gear and weapons for the battle.
  • 1 hour of prep time on the battlefield - This will be used to set traps and for my characters to get into their starting positions.
  • Basic knowledge (ie knowledge from a wiki page) - Don't let the name of this perk deceive you, as it actually grants my team quite significant knowledge on my opponent's combatants, their strengths and their weaknesses. This will allow my team to form a specific strategy to counter them, which is what I will be outlining. For reference, here are the wiki pages for Okoye, Nakia and Shuri.
  • Sword for E-1 Oliver Queen - This is pretty straightforward, it enhances Oliver's melee capabilities and massively increases the damage that he can deal with a single strike. I would have included it in the gear that my team will gather in their prep time, but surprisingly I don't think that we've ever seen swords stored in Oliver's bunker.

Prep Time (Hour 1)

My first hour of prep time will take place in E-1 Oliver's bunker, as seen in seasons 4-7 of Arrow.

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They'll use this time to gather gear that they'll use to take down Defiant_Will's team.

The first thing that they'll collect is earpieces that they can use to communicate with each other on the battlefield. Then they'll stock up on a full complement of trick arrows and flechettes. These include:

  • Explosive arrows (both those that remotely detonate and those that detonate on impact)
  • Bola arrows
  • Grappling hook arrows
  • Electric arrows
  • Tri-arrows
  • Knockout gas arrows
  • Tranquiliser arrows
  • Explosive flechettes
  • Flashbang flechettes
  • Sleep dart flechettes
  • Pre-set arrow traps (which will be seen in the next section)

I'm going to be explaining throughout this post and the next how this gear will be used.

Prep Time (Hour 2)

My team will use their second hour of prep on the battlefield to set traps for DW's team. These traps come in two forms - regular arrows that can be fired remotely, and explosive arrows that can be stuck onto surfaces and detonated remotely. At the end of this second hour, my team will position themselves on the rafters of the warehouse, waiting up high in the shadows for the other team to enter.

First, let's cover the arrow traps - here's an example of them being used:

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Note that whilst Flash catches the Arrows, Oliver is able to use the fact that he's distracted to throw a flechette into his leg. These traps are actually an excellent way of dealing with what may be DW's team's biggest advantage - the Vibranium-weave armour worn by Okoye and Nakia. As my team has basic knowledge, they know of the durable armour worn by DW's team, so will know that it's highly likely that the armour is arrow-proof. Because of this, Oliver will be able to use these traps in the same way that he used them against Flash.

Once the arrows either strike a Wakandan, or a surface near to them, they'll naturally turn to face the 'shooter' - in this case just a mechanical bow. My team will take advantage of their distraction to one-shot each of them quickly. They've got a few ways of bypassing the armour:

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  1. Oliver uses an arrow containing '2000mg of horse tranquiliser'. These arrows have even been able to knock out people like Kodiak, who barely feels an arrow in the back. DW's team has no particular resistance to toxins, so this will take them down if fired into their necks or another non-armoured portion of their body.
  2. Oliver uses a sticky electric arrow that latches onto the bulletproof and arrow-proof Atom suit and delivers an electric shock. Vibranium is a metal and therefore conducts electricity (as has been shown when Black Widow's electric attacks affected Black Panther through his Vibranium suit), so this will be able to knockout anyone on DW's team.
  3. Oliver uses a bola arrow to restrain Vigilante, a superhuman capable of snapping thick metal chains with his strikes. No-one on DW's team is this strong, so this arrow will restrain and incapacitate them.

DW's team also has a mind link, meaning that if anyone on his team is taken down then the others will be alerted. Given this, it's fortunate that my team can take them all down before they can react.

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Here E-X Oliver is able to hit three moving targets simultaneously. And here (the gif won't work in spoiler blocks), E-1 Oliver hits three small, spaced-out lights simultaneously in an even more impressive feat than Dark Arrow's. Herehe knocks and fires an arrow in the time it takes an RPG to travel about 10 feet. Between these three feats, it's safe to say that my team can take out DW's team before they notice. I can provide even more draw-speed feats if necessary.

Now I want to briefly cover the second type of trap that my team will be laying in prep time - remotely detonated explosive arrows like the ones shown below.

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It's pretty clear in the gif above that these can one-shot three fully armoured mercenaries from a decent distance. There are a couple other similar showings that I can present in my next post if necessary. My team will plant them across the warehouse, ready to detonate whenever a member of DW's team gets close. And if it doesn't one-shot them then it will at least knock them over and disorient them long enough for my team to take them out using one of their many other trick arrows, described above.

To summarise this section:

  • My team will have automated arrows and remotely detonated explosives planted across the warehouse.
  • They will detonate these to one-shot and/or distract DW's team to the point where they can simply shoot them with one of many trick arrows. Note that this is almost exactly what I showed Oliver doing against Flash earlier - distracting him with automated arrows to tag him from behind with a flechette. The strategy is one that he has used in the past.
  • They will be able to do so before DW's team is able to effectively counter due to the fact that they are both capable of accurately firing three arrows simultaneously, and can fire multiple arrows in incredibly quick succession.

I do believe that my team can win through this plan alone - but I'll be providing a couple of contingencies anyway.


If for some reason the plan presented above is ineffective (though it's certainly very effective) then my team fortunately has other ways of winning. The battle naturally becomes a game of cat and mouse around the warehouse, with the two teams trying to hunt the other down and get the drop on them. I think it's pretty clear that the archers outclass the Wakandans in this regard, so I won't spend too long on it beyond a few impressive feats.

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  1. Oliver detects Deathstroke standing completely still and silent, far behind him. This is particularly impressive given that Deathstroke can sneak up completely undetected on four trained ninjas and four trained soldiers. Yet even when immobile, and far away from Oliver, he still recognises his presence.
  2. Oliver quickly turns around to shoot a mercenary who he detects coming our from behind a crate with his back turned.
  3. Oliver completely stealths Nyssa al Ghul - one of the League of Assassins' finest members - despite not even trying to sneak up on or fight her.

Between these three gifs (particularly the first and third), I think it's fair to say that my team are far more likely to get the drop on DW's team than vice versa. And with the capacity to take them out with a single arrow, that's really all that they need. This ensures that my team can win even without the traps that they'll lay in the second hour of prep.

Long-Range Combat

If somehow prep isn't relevant and the battle doesn't become a game of stealth - which is massively unlikely - then it becomes a ranged battle. My team has a few major advantages that would allow them to win in this scenario.

The first major advantage that my team has is accuracy.

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  1. Oliver hits a moving helicopter whilst spinning through the air uncontrollably. This shows that he's extremely accurate even when moving rapidly.
  2. Oliver hits a moving arrow - note that arrows are both incredibly small and incredibly fast, making this a pretty insane accuracy feat against a moving target.
  3. Oliver makes an accurate shot with a rope arrow from a distance of about 1200m.

These gifs prove pretty conclusively that my team won't miss - and the Wakandans simply don't have the feats to dodge arrows.

This brings us to my team's second advantage in a shootout - their reaction times.

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  1. Oliver dodges an arrow with his back turned - note that this also shows he can dodge Nakia's thrown projectiles from behind even if she gets the drop on him.
  2. Oliver reacts to an arrow fast enough to shoot it out of the sky - a pretty insane speed feat in addition to accuracy.
  3. E-X Oliver deflects an arrow from incredibly close range with his bow.

So what does this actually mean? Well, it means that both members of my team are more than capable of dodging Nakia's projectiles and Okoye's spear (if she throws it) after they're fired, as neither of them have feats to suggest that they can throw faster than arrows. Shuri's gauntlets, however, are sonic-based so it's unlikely that Oliver can dodge them after they're fired. Given that, it's fortunate that he's a proficient aim-dodger:

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In these gifs Oliver moves so quickly that experienced gunmen are unable to hit him - Shuri doesn't really have any notable accuracy feats, particularly against fast moving targets so she'd struggle greatly to hit Oliver. Oliver, by contrast, can shoot quickly moving targets whilst he himself is moving quickly - it's very clear who has the advantage here.

To summarise my team's ranged advantages from this section and the last:

  • My team is going to be able to tag DW's team pretty easily, whereas they'll struggle greatly to hit mine
  • My team can one-shot DW's team
  • My team can take out multiple members of DW's team simultaneously by firing multiple arrows at the same time, or in quick succession by using their incredible rate of fire

These advantages are more than sufficient to guarantee my team a victory in a ranged battle.

Close-Quarters Combat

The final scenario that I want to cover in my opener is what would happen in close-quarters combat - and again, I think that my team holds a significant advantage here. I can go into detail about physicals etc in my next post if necessary, but I think that the massive skill gap in favour of my team is all that I need to show their superiority in cqc.

I'll be using one specific showing to demonstrate Oliver's skill, which is his Dark Arrow's fight against Dinah, Curtis and Rene. It's too long to turn it into a gif and videos don't work under spoiler blocks, which is why I've linked it. To summarise, he dodges or blocks almost all of their attacks, only getting hit once by a kick from Dinah. In under 30 seconds, they're all taken down. To put it quite simply - he utterly stomped them. This was not a close fight, with the trio only landing a single hit, compared to Oliver's 11 hits and a throw. So exactly how skilled are this trio?

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  1. Even Curtis, who is by far the least skilled of the trio, can effortlessly take down three trained mercenaries without being touched. This at least puts him above Shuri, who doesn't have any feats or training in close-quarters combat.
  2. Dinah takes out 8 mercenaries in 15 seconds without being touched. This is probably at least on the skill level of Okoye, who is by far the most skilled of the Wakandan trio.
  3. Rene takes out 6 men whilst surrounded, only being tagged once. This probably puts him above Nakia, whose best close-quarters combat feat is managing to last under 10 seconds in a fight with Killmonger whilst he was distracted by Shuri's blasts.

So this team is at least on the same level of skill as my opponents team, and they also have excellent teamwork. At this point in the show, Rene and Curtis had been training and fighting alongside each other for about 15 months, and Dinah had been with them for about 9 months. Regardless, a single Oliver utterly stomped them, despite fighting only with his bow. In this battle E-1 Oliver also has a sword, and E-X Oliver will be using his combat knife so the fight becomes even easier. For DW to prove that his team could beat mine in close-quarters, he would need to show that:

  1. They could utterly stomp Dinah, Curtis and Rene - this would put them on Oliver's level.
  2. They could utterly stomp two sets of Dinah, Curtis and Rene - this would put them on the level of two Olivers.
  3. They could utterly stomp two sets of Dinah, Curtis and Rene, and go even further beyond that level - this would prove that they could deal with two Olivers carrying one-shot weapons.

I very much doubt that DW will be able to prove those things, so my team is very safe in close-quarters. The gap between Oliver and Dinah/Curtis/Rene is massive. The gap between two Olivers and them is absurd. The gap between two Olivers carrying bladed weapons and them? Mountainous.


So let's summarise some of these disparate threads and pull them together.

  1. It's important to remember my team's strategy - they will use pre-set traps to distract/disorient the Wakandans and then rapidly take them all out. This is pretty much exactly what Oliver did against Barry, and is how this battle will almost certainly play out.
  2. Even if we don't factor in the traps, my team is substantially more suited to a stealthy game of cat-and-mouse. They can even dodge projectiles fired from behind them, so it's quite clear who wins in this scenario.
  3. Even if we don't factor in prep or stealth, my team's accuracy, reaction speed and draw speed advantages will allow them to win in a ranged battle.
  4. If this battle somehow, inexplicably, becomes a melee duel then E-X Oliver's teambusting feat against New Team Arrow is more than enough to prove that the archers stomp the Wakandans in close quarters.

Oliver & Oliver have the advantage however this battle unfolds - they'll go in with information about the Wakandans' strengths and weaknesses, perfectly prepared to counter them with a strategy that they've demonstrated they can use before. I'm looking forward to defending this strategy against whatever DW may bring.

And the ball has been served...
And the ball has been served...
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#10 Posted by JSDoctor (1645 posts) - - Show Bio