Live Action Free-4-All: Spartan (RBT) vs Punisher (AllStarSuperman) vs Daredevil (BuildHare)

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buildhare

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Fanatical Three Way

Repped by RBT, BuildHare and AllStarSuperman respectively
Repped by RBT, BuildHare and AllStarSuperman respectively

Rules:

  • No prior knowledge
  • Morals on
  • Standard gear
  • Everyone at their best
  • Win by KO, Incap or death

Battlefield

Start in the far sections of this large hardware store. It closed an hour ago but the lights are still on.
Start in the far sections of this large hardware store. It closed an hour ago but the lights are still on.

Challenge A Viner Rules

  • Do not start extra arguments, post unnecessary scans/videos or interfere in the debate itself in any way. If you wish to inform either of us on anything important or correct us on a point, send us a private message.
  • If any of the above is excessively broken, we may request a mod to assist.
  • Your vote should be decided based on the debating quality and abilities of the participants. Not necessarily on the characters they are representing.
  • A reason for your voting choice would be greatly appreciated too.
  • May the best debater win.
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RBT

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Lets do it.

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Gilad_the_One

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#3  Edited By Gilad_the_One

The Punisher

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Trained by and a partner to New York City detective - Jake Berkowitz - Frank Castle became a highly honored police detective. One day his family was murdered and he was thought dead. Frank then began his 5 year killing spree which included over 125 recorded Mafia members. He single handedly weakened the mob so badly that the Yakuza moved in and took over.

Castle is shown to be a black belt in an unstated martial art. It can be assumed to be Dolph Lundgren's own Kyokushin Karate - as this is also the primary martial art of all stunt choreographers that worked on this film. Also shown above is that Frank has awards for both Patrolman and Detective of the Year.

Physicals:

A solid advantage Frank has in this fight is his physical stats. Neither Matt or Diggle can match his natural strength or durability. He's possibly equal to Daredevil in speed but could also be faster once he get to breaking down feats. Only edge I don't think he holds is agility which obviously goes to Matt. But despite his massive size Frank is still shown to be incredibly agile.

Strength:

  1. After withstanding torture he is able to just flex - bust out of ropes - steal two guys guns and shoot them both the same time.
  2. Breaks a guys arm with his knee with no difficulty. Then lifts him with one hand.

Speed:

  • These are the same scenes from the movie and the comic adaption - He's able to dodge automatic gunfire from multiple shooters at the same time.

Durability/Pain Tolerance:

  • Look at these from right to left. Frank withstands torture on a rack and Lady Tanaka complements his pain tolerance.

Equipment:

It should come to you at no surprise that the Punisher packs a lot of weaponry. Unlike Matt who arms himself with only 2 sticks connected with a string or Diggle who from what I recall only uses a handgun or tranquilizer gun should RBT choose to use that instead - Frank is actually smart and uses lethal weapons. Frank isn't over reliant on his weapons mind you - he's incredibly skilled in melee as I will eventually show - but for now my opponents have to prove they can even get past his gear.

  • (2) Colt Commando: Fully automatic assault rifle. Frank uses this gun to clear out a room full of ninjas.
  • (4) Franchi Spas-12: Semi-automatic 12 gauge shotgun. Frank uses it too take down Yakuza Ninja's at long range.
  • (3) Desert Eagle: 50 caliber handgun. This is an absolute cannon. The idiot on the receiving end of this bad boy is awarded instant death and his corpse is send flying with enough for to bust apart a large wooden crate.
  • (1) Skull Knife: Frank's go to for stealth and melee. He carries a handful of these and can even throw them with Bullseye level precision and does so numerous times throughout the movie.

Even more Frank carries grenades - which he can expertly time to blow up exactly when they reach their target.

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Marksmanship:

So sure Castle might carry a lot of firearms but can he actually hit his opponents? Of course he can. This will be very brief of here's some great shots he's pulled off:

  1. In a flashback scene to before he was the Punisher he saves his partners life with a quick draw shot. Even better is that he is shooting with his left his non dominant hand.
  2. Look at the last gif first then come back to this one. Immediately after gunning down a roomful of ninjas. Frank and Johnny are having a brief conversion when another ninjas tries to charge them. Frank is able to take aim and fire a lethal shot in no time at all.
  3. Punisher and Johnny Franco instantly gun down an entire roomful of ninjas with no effort at all. Guns beat karate and Frank has nothing to fear from the man without fear.

As I mentioned above his skill with projectiles is not limited to just firearms. Frank can throw his skull knives into his enemies throats casually and constantly:

  • Middle one is a chest wound but you get the idea. Matt and Diggle wear armor and helmets but guess what? Knife to the throat bitches.

Conclusion:

The Punisher holds almost every edge in this match and I'll prove it. He's far stronger than either Matt or Dig -stronger than the Kingpin even. His guns are powerful enough to penetrate either of the other guy's armor. I didn't mention it above but Frank wears a kevlar vest with the classic Punisher skull on it as well. His gear and his willingness to use it to its fullest can not be understated. He's the only one here who actually tries to kill his opponents in character. And as the OP says they have no knowledge of each other so he won't hold back against the superheroes.

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Gilad_the_One

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@rbt: @buildhare: Post is up. I use this account cause it has all my Punisher feats on it and I don't want to muddy up my main which I keep pristine for Hit-Girl feats.

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#6  Edited By RBT

Nice

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#7  Edited By buildhare

@gilad_the_one: @rbt:

The Devil of Hells Kitchen

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This guy. Blinded at a young age Matthew Murdock gained enhanced senses and after a lifetime of training became the masked vigilante Daredevil. Everyone knows his back story so we'll leave it at that.

Enhanced Senses

After being blinded Murdock began to develop significantly enhanced senses, allowing him to "see" again. After honing his gifts under the stern tutelage of Stick he was able to follow conversations from several blocks away, sense changes in air currents (which allows him to "see" and react to projectiles in flight) and detect normally invisible details about people by sensing things like body temperatures, breathing and even heart beats. His other senses are also insanely acute, allowing him to smell things like cologne from floors away and taste copper in the air when Claire Temple had opened a wound.

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In this instance, Daredevil is able to accurately follow Stick's whispered instructions (who's at the complete other end of the underground complex) while mid fight with the hand. In a store with only shelving to separate them locating his opponents and knowing what they're doing, even from the start, is pretty easy for Matt.

Physicals

His speed and agility will likely be most relevant physical attributes in this fight and thankfully he's got both in spades. He's fast enough to deflect arrows from multiple assailants, while sprinting towards them;

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..I'll wait till I know more about my opponents characters before I fully lock it in but I'm relatively sure he's by far the fastest person here. His agility might just be more stupid;

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....as he is as capable of flipping through of a barrage of shurikens while injured....

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...as he is avoiding the extremely long reach of Nobu's Shoge Hook via a sequence of flips flips. He knows a lot of styles but if he has a staple one beyond boxing it's his acrobatics. He incorporates it into his fighting style heavily, using many extremely acrobatic kicks/strikes, as well as allowing him to have even more momentum on his throws as he does here;

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...which also reflects his incredible strength. Now he may not be the physically strongest here but he's still bringing a lot of power in just his unarmed strikes alone;

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...putting down either of his foes here should be a non-issue even if they are as tanky as they look. Daredevil is likely just as much of a juggernaut with the punishment he regularly endured, like the infamous clearing of a safe-house of Russians after being basically near death just hours before;

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...with the injuries being more specifically Two or three broken ribs, most likely a concussion, a collapsing lung, blood loss, and several puncture wounds just from external wounds. Now I don't really think he's going to be getting tagged much but if he is few wounds are taking him out of this fight.

Skills

I feel like it's pretty obvious Matt's the most skilled combatant here, unlike his opponents he's trained as a vigilante since he was a child and is skilled in a wide variety of martial arts as a result;

From the offical Daredevil facebook page, Matt Murdock knows: Boxing, Muay Thai, Grounding-and-Pounding, Kung Fu, Judo, Aikido, Capoeira, Taekwondo, Escrima, Tricking, and Pro-Wrestling.

This training and the active crime fighting that followed have resulted in an incredibly acrobatic fighter;

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...the above is a pretty good example of how he uses his batons in combat, regularly abusing his increased senses and awareness to ricochet them into foes. Even without them he's effective;

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...here he displays his superior agility once more, striking someone behind him mid-flip, leaping through his own arms and knocking out another two cops before any of them can shoot, all despite the fact he's handcuffed at the time. He's also fought fighters extremely similar to his opponents here more than once, with the most comparable obviously being his version of Frank Castle;

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Even in their first encounter, long before his prime, Daredevil was capable of quickly overwhelming him in H2H, as well as exhibiting how his skill and agility work in unison to keep his more grounded enemies on the back foot.

Gear

Unlike Matt who arms himself with only 2 sticks connected with a string

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A very cool stick thank you very much. He can use them as a club or nunchucks and can throw them in the same way as his earlier batons;

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During this exchange a second before this gif he even catches Nobu's shoge (his Hook/chain weapon) on the chain to block it, it's just a really useful melee weapon as a whole. Even if it were just a regular club it'd be pretty good as it's even tougher than his S1 batons which took him from being unable to really hurt Fisk (and that's with his gloves which themselves are essentially reinforced alloy knuckle dusters) to beating the absolute shit out of him;

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His only other piece of gear is his suit, which has stood up against direct sword strikes and small arms fire, should definitely come in handy here.

Initial Thoughts

  • Superhuman senses are super useful here, he'll quickly know exactly where both the Punisher and Spartan are from across the store and can pick and choose his fights rather than being instantly drawn out.
  • Matt's bringing a lot of skill to this fight, he's without peer as a martial artist in this encounter and anyone forced into an a melee with him is in serious trouble.
  • Neither of these guys are really bringing anything new to the table. I'll wait for more on Spartan but as it stands the Devil has beaten better gunmen, fought more physically powerful foes and won against greater odds.
  • No one really has an answer for his agility and evasive fighting style.
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Noice.

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Can never get enough of Diggle's bucket he put on his head.

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T4V

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No Caption Provided

This hunk of a man. John Diggle. The Black Driver. You get it.

Physicals

The biggest advantage Dig has in this fight is his physicals. He isn't the most skilled or agile person here, but his strength and durability is something else.

Strength

He is a tank of a man, being physically superior to the likes of Oliver when it comes to strength. While you can just tell that Dig is stronger just by looking at Oliver and Dig, Oliver also once commented about Dig's arms being size of a bowling bowl. And Dig was able to overpower Oliver when he was under the influence of Vertigo. Dig was also able to overpower Oliver in dream world created by Dominators. I think being stronger than Oliver is more than enough to put him above both his opponents here by quite some margin. Especially Matt. I can post some strength feats from Oliver if this stance is challenged, but for now, I'll leave it alone.

Durability

While Dig's strength is impressive, his durability is even more so. He took a hit from Grundy and was fine. He was smacked across the face by Mirakuru Roy with a metal bar and wasn't KOed. Took an explosion to his face and wasn't KOed. Took a grenade exploding at his feet and wasn't KOed.Tanked this.

And this.

Its going to be a task and a half for both Matt and Frank to try and put down Dig in cqc. And while Frank at least has a workaround with his guns, Matt does not. Matt has consistently struggled against Kingpin in cqc. Dig is not only physically superior to Fisk, he is also more skilled.

Equipment/Gear

Dig's standard gear consists of a completely bulletproof suit(made by Cisco), a helmet with heat sensors, and a modded handgun. Dig does not carry a regular 9mm pistol. The stopping power of bullets from his gun is far higher than those of your regular guns. His gun is capable of shooting through a Ghost's armor. What makes this impressive is the fact that Ghost's armor is completely impervious to a regular handgun.

This also speaks about Dig's own suit, because his suit completely stopped a bullet from his own gun from literal point blank. The punching power behind the bullet was still able to knock Dig out for a few seconds, but the bullet didn't pierce his suit.

His gun can shoot bola as well as a blast of white powder to disorient and blind enemies.

His helmet has inbuild heat sensors which allows him to see through walls.

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Conclusion

I'll keep this post short for now, since I've not seen many claims from either of you that I should try and refute. While Dig is not the most skilled combatant here, nor the best geared up, he has certain advantages over both characters.

Vs Matt

Matt is more skilled than Dig is. He is also faster and more agile. However, the stats gap between the two is pretty wide. As I made the comparison before, Dig has better stats than even Fisk, someone who has been able to push Matt to hits limits because of his stats. In cqc, I think Matt simply does not have enough physical prowess to outlast Dig. From range, its definitely Dig's match. Matt doesn't really have a reliable ranged attack and I doubt Matt's suit would be able to stop Dig's bullets. The fact that Dig would know Matt's location at all times would also nullify the radar sense advantage Matt has over his opponents.

Vs Frank

I think I'll need to see more from Frank before I can make a claim, but from where it stands, I don't think Frank has enough to suggest he can take Dig in cqc. Dig is more skilled and has better stats from what I saw in ASS' first post. From range, the ability to see through walls is going to help a lot. Because in a gun fight between them, it might just come down to who spots the other first. I haven't seen anything from Frank to suggest his suit can stop Dig's bullet. And because of the heat sensing, Dig would almost definitely be the first to spot Frank than the other way around.

In cqc, as I said, I don't think Frank has any advantage over Dig from what I've seen.

  • Dig is the most physically dominant person here.
  • His 'heat vision' would allow him to be aware of his opponent's location at all the times. Most importantly, it will allow him to get a drop on Frank and avoid being snuck up on by Matt, who would be able to do it otherwise.
  • Dig's bullet has enough stopping power to make it through either of his opponent's suit.
  • In cqc, Dig has a pretty chunky advantage over Matt in stats, which would allow him to outlast Matt. And while the stats advantage over Frank isn't nearly as wide, him being more skilled than Frank would edge it in his favour as well.
  • Because he will be aware of his opponents' location at all times, he can always try and get them to engage each other while taking on the victor. Or third party them.
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The Punisher

So in an effort to show what needs to be shown and to be as direct as possible I'll go over your guys' summaries first.

RBT - His 'heat vision' would allow him to be aware of his opponent's location at all the times. Most importantly, it will allow him to get a drop on Frank and avoid being snuck up on by Matt, who would be able to do it otherwise.

BH - Superhuman senses are super useful here, he'll quickly know exactly where both the Punisher and Spartan are from across the store and can pick and choose his fights rather than being instantly drawn out.

Obviously sighting your opponent first is a massive advantage. Frank Castle doesn't have a radar sense nor thermal imaging goggles. What he does have is incredibly honed natural senses. He lives in dark sewers and he's impossible to sneak up on. Throughout the movie people try to sneak up on him and/or attack him from behind and not once have they ever succeeded.

A ninja appears on the roof behind Frank and opens fire with an assault rifle. Frank while laying on the ground is able to react - dodge the bullets - and take the ninja out with his shotgun.

A ninja attacks Frank while he is busy shooting at other ninja's. Again Frank reacts no problem - doesn't get tagged at all - and guns down the ninja. There's some slight difference here so I'll go over both. Comic - Frank reacts to a thrown bladed chain (Nobu style) - he blocks it with his shotgun - twists around and shoots it causing it to break then follows up with a shot to the ninja. Movie - Frank reacts to a chain being whipped at him - easily catches it midair and with one hand fires his shotgun sending the ninja flying. Both of these are insane speed feats especially considering this guy tries to attack Frank while he's busy. The movie version is even more so impressive cause of the speed and durability to just catch a chain in midair.

Frank's senses are just as good or better than his opponents where it counts. Obviously Frank can't pull a Daredevil and sense someone's keys in their coat pocket or hear heartbeats or hell somehow hear what the battery life of someones phone is or some shit like that. But sensing a human even a stealthy one in a combat or even non combat situation? Frank's got that down. He has nothing to worry about here.

A comparison I can make through is that Matt failed to dodge an arrow from behind while unaware of the shooter. - Marvel's Daredevil: Apartment Fight Scene - YouTube

Yet as I showed above Frank dodged assault rifle fire in the same situation while lying down and took his attacker out no problem.

RBT - Dig is the most physically dominant person here.

BH - Neither of these guys are really bringing anything new to the table. I'll wait for more on Spartan but as it stands the Devil has beaten better gunmen, fought more physically powerful foes and won against greater odds.

Diggle is simply not strongest or most durable person here. He's been hurt and knocked out by people weaker them himself several times throughout the shows history. Punisher on the other hand is only ever hurt by "The 2 Elites" who are physically on his level and the top tier of skill in the Yakuza. Bottom line is if you're weaker than Frank Castle you can't even make him flinch.

Daredevil has not beaten a better gunman or fought anyone stronger than this version of Castle before or won against greater odds. Simply put all of that is false. MCU Frank I love him but man he doesn't even compare. MCU Frank shot Daredevil in the head no problem if anything that just solidified that Matt can't dodge either Diggle or Castle forever. And from the penetration feats shown from Diggle's armor piercing bullets and the fact that Frank uses a Desert Eagle as his sidearm means that shot would have blown completely through Matt's head. Moving on Matt has immense struggle with Wilson Fisk who is slower than Castle and isn't even a trained fighter. I can't stress that enough Fisk is skill less and Matt still has a hard time putting him down. Greator odds? When has Daredevil ever stormed a Yakuza penthouse with 30+ Ninjas - 2 Elites - 1 Uber Elite - and finally 1 Top Tier Mob Boss. Punisher did all of this then went on to beat Johnny Franco while weakened. And I know I am not the one arguing for Diggle but there's an impressive showing of him storming his way through a Ghost army and I'm sure RBT will get to. I actually think "greater odds" are that Matt comes dead last in this category. Not to lowball but 24 bikers is not impressive when compared to the Yakuza

Ninja.

Franks Physical Stats

I'll get this out of the way now so you guys know just what you are up against.

Strength: I already showed Frank casually breaking a guys arm and dead lifting his entire body with only one hand. Neither Diggle or Matt could accomplish this. Sure can they fling a guy around with a judo throw using their own or their opponent's momentum? Absolutely they do it all the time. But pure raw strength they can't match Frank Castle in any way. More so adding the moral debate into his strength showings. Here Frank effortlessly breaks a guys neck. Also Frank breaking a metal lock easy.

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Speed: I did show Frank dodging 2 assault rifles at once which is as good as any feat accomplished by his opponents - or even better considering Frank is never tagged with gunfire in his movie. While Matt has been shot with bullets and arrows on at least one occasion each. Diggle has been shot with bullets multiple times. He's the slowest guy here by a mile. So I've already covered Frank's reaction time with bullet avoiding feats. And Ive already covered his combat speed with that wicked instant chain grab in midair. So what about a new speed feat in a new category? Pure raw speed. Neither Spartan or Daredevil can run fast enough to catch a speeding vehicle. Sure they can run on a rooftop and parkour it across a street to cut it off or some shit but never could they just straight line chase it down like Frank does below.

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Durability: Below this section I will show that Frank has the best armor here as it can tank assault rifle fire. But right now I'll showcase Castle's natural durability. Here he stands in a mansion that explodes. He set the charges himself so he's aware of what ridiculous level of explosive durability he possesses. This showing alone makes Diggle's grenade and bomb feat look wimpy. And Matt is even less tough than Diggle.

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This doubles as a speed feat as he must have left the house in the half second before they second much larger explosion went off.

BH - Matt's bringing a lot of skill to this fight, he's without peer as a martial artist in this encounter and anyone forced into an a melee with him is in serious trouble.

RBT - In cqc, Dig has a pretty chunky advantage over Matt in stats, which would allow him to outlast Matt. And while the stats advantage over Frank isn't nearly as wide, him being more skilled than Frank would edge it in his favour as well.

What makes Matt so skilled? A facebook video saying he knows 10 martial arts? Big deal. He knew those 10 martial arts back in season 1 and that didn't stop him from having trouble with Raze or Healy or Melvin or Fisk all people who don't have training in 10 martial arts. The latter 2 have no training to speak of If I remember right. True skill comes from experience and Frank's non stop war on crime has turned him into a terminator. He doesn't have a day job or friends or a girlfriend or wife or kids like Murdock and Diggle. Frank is all about his war and it has made him so much more efficient than either of his opponents. He doesn't have low showings. Period.

RBT - Dig's bullet has enough stopping power to make it through either of his opponent's suit.

I agree that it can go through Matt's armor but Frank's armor maybe not. While Frank is never shot in the movie. Johnny Franco is the one who gave Frank his armor and Franco tanks multiple assault rifle bullets to the chest at close range. He's knocked down but unharmed and gets up immediately surprising his attackers as he guns them down. - 1:14:20 THE PUNISHER

He later gets shot point blank with a revolver and it doesn't penetrate. It doesn't even knock him down.

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RBT - Because he will be aware of his opponents' location at all times, he can always try and get them to engage each other while taking on the victor. Or third party them.

I think all of these characters senses are too great for any of the others to get the drop on them. This is gonna be a direct fight and its gonna get that way fast. From there the edge goes to Punisher cause of his numerous weapons better physicals and looser morals.

BH - No one really has an answer for his agility and evasive fighting style.

Punisher has taken down Lady Tanaka's daughter with little issue and she was all about agility. On top of this she was armed with a seemingly limitless supply of bladed weapons and even knives that popped off her shoes. Yet Frank took her down and absolutely embarrassed her while doing so.

She gets the drop on Johnny Franco:

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Note Frank stealth attacks someone in the middle of a stealth attack. Pretty Badass. He capitalized on his superior physicals and tackled her through a wall. When the fight engaged she couldn't even touch him even when she dual wielded blades she couldn't land a single attack. Frank eventually just catches her kick and tosses her through another wall. She had agility on Frank and bladed weaponry and it meant nothing. Matt's batons will be avoided just as easily.

More Counters:

BH - He's also fought fighters extremely similar to his opponents here more than once, with the most comparable obviously being his version of Frank Castle; Even in their first encounter, long before his prime, Daredevil was capable of quickly overwhelming him in H2H, as well as exhibiting how his skill and agility work in unison to keep his more grounded enemies on the back foot.

Oof. Is the first response that comes to mind. MCU Castle is not as skilled as 1989 Castle nor does he have his physical stats. Remember how Frank was outclassed by the Russian in the gym fight. Physically that Russian was closer to 89 Punisher but probably still lacking. That Russian wasn't a skilled black belt award winning detective either. That said inferior MCU Castle absolutely embarrassed Matt in their first fight. Im actually surprised you even wanted to post it. Here it is again for readers. The Punisher - first appearance hospital - YouTube. Matt gets the drop on Frank with a flying knee to the face which Frank seems totally fine after. Matt then lands way way more hits but the hits are nearly or completely ineffective against Frank. Matt even lands a wicked jump kick which knocks Frank down but he gets up right away before Matt can even follow up his attack. This just makes Frank angry right at 2:50 Frank finally retaliates - in only 10 seconds and a handful of punches Frank knocks Matt on his ass. Frank then just walks away. He won is fight. Could have ended Daredevil for good if he even wanted too. It takes Matt 23 seconds to get off the ground and attack Frank again who just wants to leave. The fight then ends with Matt standing perfectly still while his opponent draws a gun and shoots him in the head. All around a terrible showing for Matt and if nothing else proves he can't beat a more skilled more physically imposing more weapons armed version of the character.

"But in later fights Daredevil does beat Frank easy". I for one don't take that fight in front of the police firing squad seriously. It's worse choregraphed and they simple fact that a 5 man team of snipers can't shoot two guys duking it out paying them no attention. It just makes everyone involved look bad. But what about the boat fight? Frank and Matt are friends at that point. Frank isn't fighting him with a killer instinct anymore. It's not valid.

BH - His only other piece of gear is his suit, which has stood up against direct sword strikes and small arms fire, should definitely come in handy here.

I will say Matt's armor can stop a slicing attack from a Hand ninja's katana and I believe it stops a slice to the back during a fight with Murakami in Defenders. That said. It's untested against a piercing attack. And that's not good when Frank Castle has a feat of him stabbing through armor. Assault rifle/revolver proof armor at that.

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RBT - And Dig was able to overpower Oliver when he was under the influence of Vertigo.

I don't see how this is "overpowering". Dig is literally on top of him with the advantage and only holds him until Ollie can relax. It's not like he forced him down and made him submit or something.

RBT - The stopping power of bullets from his gun is far higher than those of your regular guns. His gun is capable of shooting through a Ghost's armor. What makes this impressive is the fact that Ghost's armor is completely impervious to a regular handgun. This also speaks about Dig's own suit, because his suit completely stopped a bullet from his own gun from literal point blank. The punching power behind the bullet was still able to knock Dig out for a few seconds, but the bullet didn't pierce his suit.

That's a solid showing and I am impressed. But the difference in size of Diggle's gun and Frank's guns can't go unsaid. It's massive.

No Caption Provided

The first bullet on the left. That's what Frank fires from his Desert Eagle. The second bullet from the right. Thats the 9mm that Diggle fires. Diggle might as well be lady. Frank's bullet is an instant kill. Here's a good showing of its stopping power.

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Sends a guy's dead body flying smashing apart a large wooden crate. This also doubles as a good accuracy feat considering the conditions of the shot. Frank just jumped off a moving car did a roll and fired right away.

Now let's make this gap even worse.

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Again the 9mm is what Diggle uses the 5.56 is what fires from Frank's Colt Commando assault rifle. That too will have no problem penetrating either Matt or Diggle's armor.

Summary:

  • You guys need to prove you can counter Frank's imposing physicals.
  • You guys need to prove that they can somehow avoid every bullet shot at them cause their armor damn well isn't doing anything.

I know I have held off on Frank's better skill feats. With the exception that I showed Frank easily countering someone with better agility then himself nullifying Matt's only edge. More skill feats are coming in my next post. I'll build up Frank's opponents. Lowest level Yakuza Ninjas. The 2 Elite Ninjas - which are tanks so that will be relevant for countering Diggle's durability. And finally Lady Tanaka's Daughter who was the uber elite and is a perfect representation of why Matt isn't even a threat to Frank.

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@allstarsuperman: @rbt: @gilad_the_one:

Post #2

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Alright, you've got your licks in, lets break it down.

Counters

Self Improvement

Both of my opponents have arguments relying on the assumption that Matt is stagnant with regards to across the length of his career, which could not be further from the truth. Just for a quick overview of Matt's progress, put into words;

  • Season One; Rookie Daredevil, he's only just starting out and is largely untested. This is the guy that was memed as being unable to take down fodder and losing to thugs.
  • Season Two: Devil of Hell's Kitchen, this is the point Matt makes his greatest leaps forwards as he faces a far greater variety of opponents.
  • Defenders: Man without Fear: Indisputably his peak, the full realization of his progress from Season Two. This is the period wherein he fights Ninja Supersoldiers, Hundred year old Grandmasters and the current Iron Fist.
  • Season Three: Matt "The Cripple" Murdock. He sustained serious injuries at the end of the Defenders that he never really recovered from fully, though he does improve from the start of the season (losing to two men) to the end (beating Fisk).

It's not just my conclusion that season two was the melting pot for such significant improvement though, it's a fact the team behind the show reiterated;

The story of the first season focused on Matt Murdock growing into the vigilante/hero Daredevil. He was learning and developing his fighting style. Season 2 takes place after he has defeated Kingpin and is at the top of his game. He has had a lot of time to hone in the art of fighting crime. He is definitely more confident. He is more polished and assertive. However, the only way to raise a hero’s level is to raise the level of their foes. This season introduces some amazing characters, each of whom brings an amazing style of fighting into the mix. Plus, there are thugs, and ninjas, and all kinds of awesome bad guys making every single fight and sequence exciting. Daredevil’s crime-fighting skills are definitely tested. (Chris Brewster, Stunt Double)

Showings like going from losing to Punisher due to inexperience at the start of the season to stomping him in their final encounter only solidify this fact.

So when considering any low showings during the first season/early reason two and final season, recognize that Daredevil has in-universe reasons for sucking (whether it be debilitating injuries or being a noob) during these periods, even without the context of massively better feats in late Season two and Defenders.

Punisher v Punisher

AS: MCU Castle is not as skilled

Daredevil has not beaten a better gunman or fought anyone stronger than this version of Castle before or won against greater odds. Simply put all of that is false. MCU Frank I love him but man he doesn't even compare.

If 1989 Punisher uses as much karate as you say he's certainly a different kind of fighter than the MCU's Military Man, but given skill for the Punisher is more revolved around gun-play I certainly disagree, he's clearly the superior marksman based on what we've seen of 1989 Castle so far here;

...given reacting to a ninja and tagging him non-fatally was somehow noteworthy for 1989 Punisher, I fail to see how his more recent version doing the same thing to one thug and killing another five all before any of them can raise their already readied weapons is worse. If anything stuff like this;

Worth noting he was hundreds of feet away in the woods, and made this shot with a broken hand
Worth noting he was hundreds of feet away in the woods, and made this shot with a broken hand

...makes me feel as though one of these Punisher's is actually quite a bit better than the other in this arena.

as 1989 Castle nor does he have his physical stats.

Basically the only showing you have for him so far that MCU Frank shouldn't be able to do is lifting a man to his level one handed, everything else is either worse or something he's already outright done;

...as for speed so far all we've seen from 1989 Punisher is several variations of the aim dodging common among street levelers, I don't see how Dolph's iteration is any better than someone Matt's already beaten soundly. Regarding their first encounter;

Matt gets the drop on Frank with a flying knee to the face which Frank seems totally fine after. Matt then lands way way more hits but the hits are nearly or completely ineffective against Frank. Matt even lands a wicked jump kick which knocks Frank down but he gets up right away before Matt can even follow up his attack. This just makes Frank angry right at 2:50 Frank finally retaliates - in only 10 seconds and a handful of punches Frank knocks Matt on his ass.

Being unable to retaliate (not sure choosing to get his ass beat is in character for Frank) for basically twenty seconds is hardly indicative of Frank having the advantage, Matt disarmed him twice and caused him to miss by grappling him multiple times in this period. Matt was clearly caught unaware by his foes ability towards the end of this section (as is made obvious by his high praise of him the very next episode), which is pretty on brand for him at this point in his career.

The fight then ends with Matt standing perfectly still while his opponent draws a gun and shoots him in the head.

This is solely due to the fact Matt believed he'd fully disarmed Frank at this point, this is again indicative of his inexperience at that point as he never makes the same mistake again. On that lets look at their other two fights;

"But in later fights Daredevil does beat Frank easy". I for one don't take that fight in front of the police firing squad seriously. It's worse choregraphed and they simple fact that a 5 man team of snipers can't shoot two guys duking it out paying them no attention. It just makes everyone involved look bad.

This wasn't the fight I meant but its still indicative of what I'm talking about (though when we're talking about his improvement in season two, it's mainly due to the hand), despite being massively hindered with regards to his hearing (and therefore ability to actually see Frank) he lands about as many hits on him as vice versa, if not more so.

But what about the boat fight? Frank and Matt are friends at that point. Frank isn't fighting him with a killer instinct anymore. It's not valid.

Now I'm glad you said that, because the literal words uttered in this fight are;

Daredevil: I don't want to fight you

Punisher: I don't take it easy

...I feel that speaks volumes about the mindsets involved there, even if they aren't fighting to kill. The is the immediate followup to that is Frank sucker punching Matt, before getting his ass kicked here;

...by seasons end they are no longer peers, and that's before Matt peaked in Defenders.

Against this iteration Daredevil shouldn't run into anything he hasn't already handled in his career, by extension the same goes for Spartan as he's more or less a Punisher expy with less gear and worse aim.

Fisk as a Measuring Stick

Both of you hearkened back to some low points in Daredevils career, namely his track record with Kingpin;

AS: Moving on Matt has immense struggle with Wilson Fisk who is slower than Castle and isn't even a trained fighter.

RBT: As I made the comparison before, Dig has better stats than even Fisk, someone who has been able to push Matt to hits limits because of his stats.

...which fails to address that both times he faced the Kingpin he was far from his peak, as described above, as well as belittles Fisk as though he's just a bruiser even people like Diggle or the Punisher can out-muscle. You'll get no argument from me regarding his skill, but even with limited showings his physicals are godly;

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...taking a chunk out of the wall by slamming Bullseye into it, made more impressive by the fact this both removed him from the fight entirely and paralysed him from that point on, despite the fact he's wearing the same super durable suit Daredevil does. His first real feat, and still probably his most insane;

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...it takes a massive amount of force to crush a human skull, never-mind turning it into mush like Fisk did there. I think it's pretty clear that on physicals alone, he's far more intimidating than either Punisher or Spartan. The rest of his feats exist in a vacuum for the most part (manhandling Dex and Punisher, losing to Daredevil), despite being in three seasons he has one low showing that's pretty clearly inconsistent. Struggling with Fisk, even when Daredevil was at his most green, is far from a low showing, and comparing those somewhat mediocre performances to what a Prime Daredevil is capable of is folly, though that'll be more obvious in the next section.

Skills to Pay the Bills

RBT and I agree that Daredevil is more skilled than Diggle, though we likely disagree on the extent. As for Punisher;

AS: What makes Matt so skilled? A facebook video saying he knows 10 martial arts?

...the video was meant to effectively illustrate his varied fighting style, but fair enough let's expand on it. For fodder he's punked groups of Hand ninja, despite the fact at that point he literally couldn't see them;

Loading Video...

...and had to solely rely on tracking their swords. If they were just thugs fighting them near blind would be good, never-mind these are the same guys the Triad (literally just the Chinese equivalent of the Yakuza) were so scared of they didn't even bother trying to defend one of their own when a group of Hand showed up. When he could actually see them we get a much for straighforward encounter;

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...where he basically steamrolls them in no time at all. Based on their own in-universe standing with regards to criminal syndicates like the Triads and their own feats (Matching a wounded Daredevil with a single soldier near the start of season 2, masking themselves from his superhuman sense) they're the best fodder anyone here has fought and Daredevil just creamed them. But you didn't come here for just Matt smacking some ninjas, how about beating on the Immortal Iron fist himself;

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..despite Rand having mastered multiple forms of kung-fu and being the chosen guardian of a society of martial artists Matt consistently gets the better of him in their encounter, landing far more hits than Danny's 2. The guy can contend with huge groups of trained fodder without getting tagged, but he can barely keep up with Daredevil there.

Obviously though his best skill feat is still coming right up, you knew it always was and you know exactly what I'm talking about;

Matt was able to fight and avoid the Black Sky for an extended period, despite being totally gear-less and suffering from an extreme disadvantage in stats;

  • Strength: Can yeet full grown men with her strikes.
  • Durability: Is fine after being hit with the Iron Fist.
  • Speed: Fast enough to avoid multiple bullets from close range, and even deflect one.

...notably in addition to her superhuman physicals she's also well and truly more skilled than either of Matt's foes here, beating ten hand ninjas in under ten seconds while starting unarmed and being in pitch black darkness. Yet despite all those not insignificant showings Matt was able to go untouched by her for nearly thirty seconds while landing plenty of hits of his own. I feel this is also a pretty good example of just how hard his evasive and agile style is to deal with, given that even she had major issues hitting him because of it.

Updated Summary

For The Punisher

You guys need to prove you can counter Frank's imposing physicals.

Frank has comparable physicals to the MCU iteration for the most part it seems, and far worse physicals than people like Fisk or the Black Sky, they can't be relied upon to help him here.

Pure raw speed. Neither Spartan or Daredevil can run fast enough to catch a speeding vehicle.

As far as combat goes, I'll take deflecting arrows over winning the one hundred meter sprint.

A comparison I can make through is that Matt failed to dodge an arrow from behind while unaware of the shooter. - Marvel's Daredevil: Apartment Fight Scene - YouTube

It's like getting shot by an invisible person with an invisible gun, unless you're going to argue Frank's capable of slowing his heartbeat to a crawl, moving in true silence and doesn't need to breath this is utterly irrelevant here.

You guys need to prove that they can somehow avoid every bullet shot at them cause their armor damn well isn't doing anything

A track record of dodging against superior marksmen (MCU Punisher) and vastly faster combatants (The Black Sky) mean this is basically a given so far.

For Spartan

Matt is more skilled than Dig is. He is also faster and more agile. However, the stats gap between the two is pretty wide. As I made the comparison before, Dig has better stats than even Fisk, someone who has been able to push Matt to hits limits because of his stats. In cqc, I think Matt simply does not have enough physical prowess to outlast Dig.

As addressed above, I contest the Diggle > Fisk physically thing pretty hard, I think one is far more imposing than the other. As I've also covered the same new-blooded Matt that was pressured by that level of physicals isn't the prime iteration Diggle will be facing here.

From range, its definitely Dig's match. Matt doesn't really have a reliable ranged attack and I doubt Matt's suit would be able to stop Dig's bullets.

I'd certainly argue Matts ranged is very reliable, especially against gunmen like Spartan;

...given his expertise at ricochets I don't see why doing that from around the corner isn't a possibility, if not just hitting him to create a window to close.

The fact that Dig would know Matt's location at all times would also nullify the radar sense advantage Matt has over his opponents.

I'll need to see some more from the thermal vision to believe it's that useful, a hardware store is full of stuff to outright block or muddy the thermals, far more than Diggle would encounter looking through one wall. Also the radar sense is obviously omnidirectional, whereas Spartan actually has to be looking in the direction Punisher or Daredevil are. In a one-on-one it'd be possible to sneak up on Spartan if the helmet can't see through an infinite number of walls, limiting it's use to mainly close range. But with Punisher here to soak up Diggle's attention it should be far, far easier given he can't look in every direction at once as Matt can.

Closing Post #2

  • Most of Matt's "low showings" are from either far before his prime or after his maiming
  • Though they're more imposing than him both of his opponents here are nothing new with regards to physicals
  • Matt has defeated his iteration of the Punisher, who is in essentially comparable to both 1989 Punisher/Spartan in every regard and significantly better in others (marksmanship, namely)
  • Matt is far and away the most skilled fighter here based on what's been shown so far and will be able to lay a heckin' smack down in any melee that breaks out
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You all are too fast...

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@rbt said:

You all are too fast...

Thought the same

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@rbt: Get to work boy

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@rbt: they’re not fast you’re just slow. Subs been waiting how long for you to post on how many CaVs?

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@rbt: they’re not fast you’re just slow. Subs been waiting how long for you to post on how many CaVs?

lime can wait. Its not like his time is worth anything.

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Post #2

Counters

I'll go over claims from both debaters separately to make it a bit more cohesive.

Buildhare-

Both of my opponents have arguments relying on the assumption that Matt is stagnant with regards to across the length of his career, which could not be further from the truth. Just for a quick overview of Matt's progress, put into words;

I do agree with this. Matt's skill did improve, but his losses against Fisk was never the result of his lack of skill. It was never that he couldn't keep up with Fisk speed wise or skill wise. He always outhit him. It was his stats that always let him down. This part of their final first season fight is a very good representation of that. Matt gets like 8 hits in, outskilling Fisk at every turn, but the moment Fisk gets his hand on him, in 3 seconds Matt is on the backfoot. The only reason Matt made a comeback in the fight is because Fisk didn't push the advantage. A mistake Dig won't make in this fight. A mistake Fisk didn't make later in the fight and effectively ended Matt.

As I have already said, Matt is more skilled than Dig. But his stats is really lacking. He doesn't have any decent durability feats, certainly none that come even close to Dig's. And while you can argue that Matt wasn't at his physical prime in S3 when he took on Fisk, he certainly was in S1. And he was still struggling to hurt Fisk. Dig is just a more physically imposing Fisk(I'll elaborate on this later in the post). Matt is really gonna struggle to put Dig down.

as well as belittles Fisk as though he's just a bruiser even people like Diggle or the Punisher can out-muscle. You'll get no argument from me regarding his skill, but even with limited showings his physicals are godly

I don't agree, obviously. Considering the one feat of Fisk's stats you posted is him breaking brick. As I have said before, Dig has always been portrayed as Oliver's superior in stats. There are several instances that would assert it to be true-

  • him bruising Oliver back in S1 despite holding back
  • overpowering Oliver when he was going berserk under the influence of Vertigo
  • Oliver's comments on Dig's arm being the size of bowling balls. "Rotate your hips Diggle. That's where the power comes from. Its not just the arms. Even though they are the size of bowling balls."
  • Dig against overpowering Oliver in the dreamworld created by Dominators
  • Rene commenting about Dig's arms being the size of telephone poles.

Oliver, by no means, is the strongest guy in his verse. In fact, he gets overpowered by other people all the time. People bigger than him. In S8, a Russian Cage fighter named Goliath was straight up deemed to be physically superior to Oliver by all his teammates just because he looked bigger than him. So, the bigger guy is stronger is definitely a concept in Arrowverse. Further cemented by Sara's advice to Felicity -"For self defence I recommend Wing Chun. It uses your opponent's strength against them. So its ideal for smaller people.....like us."

Now that I've got that out of the way, its time to do what I do best. Spam some Oliver Queen feats. Breaking brick wall is decent. Oliver has done that as well. He has also broken concrete walls with one arm. Has straight up smashed through a stone statue. I don't think what Fisk did is anything out of Oliver's wheelhouse at all. However, what Oliver does, is. He has multiple feats of snapping chains, handcuff, helicopter doors with just his raw strength. Things I don't see Fisk replicating. And that's Oliver. Dig is stronger than him.

And while that takes strength out of the way, the bigger problem here for Matt isn't Dig's strength really. Its his durability. I have posted some durability feats from Dig in my last post, so I won't post them again, but since you didn't contest those feats, I'm moving ahead with the assumption that you agree Dig is more durable than both Matt and Fisk(someone Matt struggled to put down). If you don't agree with this statement, then I can take it up in my final post. If Matt struggled so much to hurt Fisk, he's gonna struggle a lot more against someone who was smacked on his face by Mirakuru Roy with a metal pole and walked it off.

I'd certainly argue Matts ranged is very reliable, especially against gunmen like Spartan;

Dig has been able to avoid getting tagged by an arrow for Emiko from a pretty close range. I don't think a baton toss is really going to be reliable to disarm him considering its not particularly fast. And even if it does, its not an end and be all for Dig. As I said, Dig would dominate in cqc as well because of his stats.

I'll need to see some more from the thermal vision to believe it's that useful, a hardware store is full of stuff to outright block or muddy the thermals, far more than Diggle would encounter looking through one wall.

That was Dig looking hundreds of meters away in a fully lit room. And I'm assuming that there is no one in the store beside the combatants so even a hint of humanoid heat signature is more than enough to detect their location. Its not like he needs to see every detail.

. Also the radar sense is obviously omnidirectional, whereas Spartan actually has to be looking in the direction Punisher or Daredevil are. In a one-on-one it'd be possible to sneak up on Spartan if the helmet can't see through an infinite number of walls, limiting it's use to mainly close range. But with Punisher here to soak up Diggle's attention it should be far, far easier given he can't look in every direction at once as Matt can.

That, I agree with. Dig will still have a blindspot behind his back. But Frank isn't just here to soak up Dig's attention. He'd be soaking up Matt's attention as well. In fact, Matt would by all means would be focused on Frank a lot more than Dig. As you yourself said-

by extension the same goes for Spartan as he's more or less a Punisher expy with less gear and worse aim.

While Matt obviously wouldn't be aware of 'worse aim' part, and I'm not contesting that right now buy, he would definitely be aware that Frank is far better geared. His prime target would be a guy with Desert Eagle and AR and whatever else he carries, not the guy with just a handgun.

Having said all that, I'd say Matt still has a chance to sneak up on Dig or just disarm him with a baton toss, like you said, even though I think its unlikely. Even if Matt manages to close in, his victory is far from guaranteed in cqc. He will outhit Dig, just like he did Fisk, but Dig will take those hits better than Fisk did, being more durable than Fisk. And Fisk's damage soak was already a massive problem for Matt.

Conclusion

Concluding my argument with BH here-

  • You haven't made an argument for Fisk being more durable than Dig, which I think would play a massive part in this fight if it came to cqc.
  • While you did make a case for Matt disarming Dig and as I said, its definitely possible, with Frank being here to split both of their focus and Dig's reflexes, its very much possible that Dig can still take a few shots at Matt. And so far I've not seen anything from you that would imply Matt's suit can withstand Dig's bullets.
  • In cqc, Dig would dominate because of his stats. And from range, Matt can only hope to disarm Dig. While Dig can actually take him down. So, while Dig can win this from both range as well as cqc, Matt can only hope to win this in cqc. He has to force this fight to cqc somehow where, as I said, he'd still likely lose.

ASS-

A ninja appears on the roof behind Frank and opens fire with an assault rifle. Frank while laying on the ground is able to react - dodge the bullets - and take the ninja out with his shotgun.

That's a really good feat. Decent enough to imply that Frank would likely be able to react to Dig trying to sneak up on him. However, Dig isn't just going to miss all his shots either like the fodder there did. So, while this wouldn't be a case of Dig putting a bullet in back of his head and moving on as I initially thought, I still don't see how Frank is going to take the bullets on his armor.

I'm holding off on Dig's accuracy feats for my last post because this post is already too big for my liking.

Diggle is simply not strongest or most durable person here. He's been hurt and knocked out by people weaker them himself several times throughout the shows history. Punisher on the other hand is only ever hurt by "The 2 Elites" who are physically on his level and the top tier of skill in the Yakuza. Bottom line is if you're weaker than Frank Castle you can't even make him flinch

Dig has also been smacked across the face by an angry Mirakuru user. He has also been face-slammed into the ground by a 9ft tall alien. And jumped off sckyscrapers to be blasted by a canary cry and land on a car. These feats don't just disappear just because other peak humans have been able to hurt him. Of course they can hurt him. Dig isn't going to stand there while another peak human from his verse unloads on him and not blink. However, he can still take their hits relatively well. Like when Black Siren did a full body kick on Dig and all it did was move him a couple feet back.

Exactly what durability feats of Frank are better than the ones I mentioned here?

As for strength, as I have already said, Dig is stronger than Oliver. Going strictly by Dig's own feats, he isn't as strong as Frank, for sure. But there is no reason why we can't scale his strength from Oliver, someone who has better strength feats than Frank.

I already showed Frank casually breaking a guys arm and dead lifting his entire body with only one hand. Neither Diggle or Matt could accomplish this.

Diggle has tossed a guy through window frame and railings over 10 ft while trying to overcome that guy's own strength, but he can't lift a guy with one arm? Dig doesn't even need Oliver scaling for that.

Sure can they fling a guy around with a judo throw using their own or their opponent's momentum? Absolutely they do it all the time. But pure raw strength they can't match Frank Castle in any way.

Again, tossing guys is nothing for Arrowverse humans. I already showed you Dig's feats. There are far weaker people in Arrow doing much more ridiculous shit than that. And no, they don't utilise momentum like Matt does either. Lets start small-

No use of momentum in any of these. Now, I deliberately used some of the least physically imposing characters from Arrow to make a point. Tossing guys is not impressive for Arrow characters.

Also Frank breaking a metal lock easy.

Pretty decent feat, tbh. And this is where Oliver scaling comes in handy. Because he has done that as well. Only much more casually.

Diggle has been shot with bullets multiple times.

Unless I'm forgetting some instances, he hasn't. The only two instances I remember is him getting shot by Deadshot back in S1 and Vigilante. Neither of which is a bad showing since, IMO. If anything, Dig has one really good showing against his brother. Where Andy takes a shot at him from behind him and Dig still dodges the bullet. Now one could argue that Andy simply missed, but that likely wasn't the case considering Andy's next statement that followed, "You still got those quick reflexes, John."

Neither Spartan or Daredevil can run fast enough to catch a speeding vehicle.

Well, the thing is, Matt can't. But Dig can.

But right now I'll showcase Castle's natural durability. Here he stands in a mansion that explodes. He set the charges himself so he's aware of what ridiculous level of explosive durability he possesses.

That's a great feat.

Johnny Franco is the one who gave Frank his armor and Franco tanks multiple assault rifle bullets to the chest at close range.

I'll take your word for it and assume Frank's armor is just as good. However, those weren't shot from an AR. That was an UZI, an SMG. Uzi uses 9mm bullets with almost the same muzzle velocity as a Glock. They aren't really made for power. They are made for fire rate. And as we've established Dig's handgun has a lot more stopping power behind it than 9mm bullets. A lot more. And considering Johnny was downed by much less powerful rounds, I'd assume Dig's bullet will go clean through. Same with the revolver shot.

I think all of these characters senses are too great for any of the others to get the drop on them. This is gonna be a direct fight and its gonna get that way fast. From there the edge goes to Punisher cause of his numerous weapons better physicals and looser morals.

While that may be possible, it doesn't negate the fact that Frank is the only one out of three going in completely blind while his other two opponents have unfair advantage of knowing where he is. With one of them capable of ending it with one well placed bullet, Frank would be in serious trouble from range.

I don't see how this is "overpowering". Dig is literally on top of him with the advantage and only holds him until Ollie can relax. It's not like he forced him down and made him submit or something.

I'm just going to be very clear here. I have no argument for Dig being stronger than Frank except Oliver scaling. Now, I've explained why Dig being stronger than Oliver is valid in my reply to BH. I'm hoping that's enough to convince you guys and the voters, because I got nothing else.

The first bullet on the left. That's what Frank fires from his Desert Eagle. The second bullet from the right. Thats the 9mm that Diggle fires. Diggle might as well be lady. Frank's bullet is an instant kill. Here's a good showing of its stopping power.

Didn't we establish that Dig does not use regular rounds? It wouldn't have such a ridiculous penetrating power if he was using conventional 9mm rounds.

Again the 9mm is what Diggle uses the 5.56 is what fires from Frank's Colt Commando assault rifle. That too will have no problem penetrating either Matt or Diggle's armor.

I agree. A 556 is likely going to go through Dig's suit even if the impact will be lowered by a lot because of the suit. However, I don't think what you've shown is enough to prove that Dig's bullets won't pierce through Frank's suit either. And considering the advantage Dig has over Frank of knowing exactly where he is at all the times, I think Dig has better odds from range.

Worst case scenario, he gets shot. I think Dig has good enough pain tolerance to fight through a bullet wound. Something I'll hold off until the next post.

In cqc, I'm going to wait for Frank's skill feats.

Conclusion

Concluding my argument with ASS here-

  • Dig's feats of getting smacked by Mirakuru users, Dominator and that dumb Canary feat puts him above Frank in durability.
  • He is stronger than Oliver and hence stronger than Frank.
  • His ability to know exactly where Frank is at all times and Frank's suit's inability to stop his bullets gives him the edge from range.
  • In cqc, considering you haven't shown much of Frank's cqc, I'm claiming that Dig is more skilled as well as physically superior.
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#27  Edited By RBT
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#30  Edited By AllStarSuperman

@buildhare: holy shit I hadn’t realized it’s been a month. Publicly shaming me in the thread worked dude. I’ll get on it

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@buildhare: holy shit I hadn’t realized it’s been a month. Publicly shaming me in the thread worked dude. I’ll get on it

It didn't apparently, can we not just get a third post up and put this sucker to votes @rbt?

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Gilad_the_One

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Yakuza Ninjas

Buildhare stated that he thinks Hand Ninjas are best fodder any of our guys have faced. That couldn't be more wrong. Hand Ninja are lacking in feats. A one second clip of 1 ninja beating 2 hospital security guards isn't impressive. Especially when immediately after we have a scene where a nurse pushes a ninja out of a window. Yakuza Ninjas actually were extremely well established for only being fodder in a 90 minute movie.

Durability: One guy doesn't even flinch when Tommy Franco breaks a chair across his back. Another guy gets knocked into a speeding bus and gets up ready to fight immediately.

Melee: (1 and 2) Ninja's easily beat Mafia members in combat. (3) Ninja stealth stabs a guy through a windshield.

Thrown Weapons: Ninja's are able to take out mafia guys with a variety of throwing weapons.

Guns: Ninja's out gun Mafia on multiple occasions.

  1. A restaurant full of undercover Yakuza members gets up and shoots the Mafia's guards before anyone of them could retaliate.
  2. One ninja throws a knife into a mans back which gets the attention of the others they turn around then the rest of the ninjas on the boat open fire on them while they are distracted.
  3. A Mafia guy already has his gun drawn and aimed at a Ninja and the ninja is able to get up and fire some weird air powered dart and land a nasty headshot.
  4. Ninja makes a long range handgun shot while on a movie boat shooting a guy on a moving boat.

These Ninjas are incredibly dangerous and tough. Yakuza have range superiority over Hand Ninjas. They use guns and a large variety of throwing blades. Hand Ninja's typically have no range only a few out of the dozens seen carried a bow. For close range Yakuza was shown more variety as well. Swords. Chains. and Sai. Hand ninjas only used swords. I don't remember any durability feat for the Hand either - certainly none as good as the bus feat I posted above. Yakuza is bigger threat yet Punisher kills them effortlessly by the dozens.

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#34  Edited By Gilad_the_One

Counters

Buildhare

Worth noting he was hundreds of feet away in the woods, and made this shot with a broken hand...makes me feel as though one of these Punisher's is actually quite a bit better than the other in this arena.

Wow that is really impressive. It's too bad that MCU Frank was shooting long range at unaware target while in no danger himself. I'll outright admit that 89 Punisher doesn't have any long range feat like this. But that's irrelevant when his close range feats blow MCU's out of the water. Ypu showed a far away shot from Frank. But what about when he's not far away? What about when he's under fire? is his accuracy still just as good? Hardly. No its not.

No Caption Provided

Here Punisher is attacked by two men coming at him in a diner. He manages to shot the first guy in the leg but the second reacts and Punisher can't land a single shot on him despite firing several times at extremely close range. Another instance I can recall is in hotel fight of scene 2.

Loading Video...

At 0:05 into the video a guys sitting still in a stationary car starts firing at Frank. Frank doesn't take him down until 0:45. Frank wastes 30 seconds and 3 full clips of handgun ammo to take down a stationary target. He has all this trouble just because he's under fire. The same is true when he fights non fodder. In his ending fight with Billy Russo - Frank gets shot multiple times both with an assault rifle and later with a handgun - and lands no shots on Billy except for an unintentional ricochet.

Who know why I think more highly of 1989 Punisher? Because he can dodge and still land accurate shots while under stress. Check this out:

No Caption Provided

Close range. Two ninjas shoot at Frank with Uzi's. Franks able to duck under the gunfire and shoot them instantly. This is a million times better than MCU Frank failing to hit his targets in the diner.

How about this one?

No Caption Provided

Frank while soaring through the air is able to land a center mass shot on a target no problem.

So yeah I'll concede that MCU Frank has better sniper feats. Because 1989 Frank doesn't even have any long range feats at all. But close range and medium range? 89 Punisher is better all the way. I've shown him make harder shots under worse conditions in less time. Serious lol at MCU Frank taking 30 seconds to hit a guy sitting in car not twenty feet away. Just to reiterate. 89 Punisher can land his shots while on the move. And thats a major factor in a fight.

Here Frank lands shoots on a ninja while travelling down a zipline and firing from the hip.

No Caption Provided
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Then immediately after landing. He draws his shotgun and puts down 5 more Ninjas while never taking a hit himself.

Basically the only showing you have for him so far that MCU Frank shouldn't be able to do is lifting a man to his level one handed,

So you admit that MCU Frank isn't as strong as Dolph Frank? That's all I needed. So now we know that MCU version is neither as stronger or as good a marksman as 89. So Daredevil beating an inferior Punisher has no relevance to this fight against a superior version.

Being unable to retaliate (not sure choosing to get his ass beat is in character for Frank) for basically twenty seconds is hardly indicative of Frank having the advantage,

Frank soaking up 20 seconds of attacks that didn't even phase him. Matt's striking power looks to be that of a five year old child against Frank. Frank then lands like only 3 hits and it floors Matt for a good while as Ive already shown.

...it takes a massive amount of force to crush a human skull, never-mind turning it into mush like Fisk did there.

Oh wow he did this feat with 27 car door slams. Dean Winchester has beheaded a guy with only 3 door slams and no one is arguing that he's superhumanly strong.

But you didn't come here for just Matt smacking some ninjas, how about beating on the Immortal Iron fist himself;

Matt was able to fight and avoid the Black Sky for an extended period, despite being totally gear-less and suffering from an extreme disadvantage in stats;

Oh boy here we go. Defenders feats. Yuck. If you are to genuinely compare Matt vs Danny. There is no way in hell the fight should have gone the way it did in Defenders. A simple comparison can be made here. Season 2 Daredevil Daredevil vs Dogs of Hell Gang. Matt takes numerous hits and gets tag and grabbed multiple times by standard criminal bikers - his armored suit is his saving grace. Season 1 Iron Fist Iron fist elevator scene. Danny fights actually skilled Triad members who are armed with hatchets. Danny is fighting weaponless and is wearing only street clothes. Yet he doesn't get tagged at all. And on top of all this Danny fights way less violent than Matt does. - In the first episode of Defenders IronFist fights the Black Sky which should of shown a superiority to Matt. - My main complete is that no one understands the context that angre enraged Defenders Ironfist isn't as skillful as a calm chi centered Ironfist. So beating a baby having a tantrum isn't as impressive as you want it to be.

Matt fighting the Black Sky is useless. Not only do his feats in his solo show both before and after Defenders make this fight an outlier in skill. But also because Elektra still has feeling for him even in early first appearance zombie mode. Black Sky holds back against Matt. Period.

Season 3 Matt. Who is physically fine after episode 5. That Matt gets his ass kicked by Bullseye and states that he "is one of the toughest fastest fighters he's ever seen" Which is laughable when Defenders had not only Black Sky but the other immortal Fingers of the Hand as well.

The real Daredevil seen in season 2 and 3 of his show. He still struggles with Melvin. Bullseye. and Kingpin. He doesn't outclass either Diggle or Punisher by any means.

RBT

These feats don't just disappear just because other peak humans have been able to hurt him. Of course they can hurt him. Dig isn't going to stand there while another peak human from his verse unloads on him and not blink.

Diggle has been restrained by much physically weaker people then himself. Such as China White. China White Attacks. Or that time Cupid flipped him which seemingly took him out. diggle and thea vs cupid. Punisher is never hurt by a physically inferior person in his movie.

Diggle has tossed a guy through window frame and railings over 10 ft while trying to overcome that guy's own strength

This is a hilariously unimpressive showing. Knocking a guy through a window? That's it? come on.

Neither Spartan or Daredevil can run fast enough to catch a speeding vehicle. - Well, the thing is, Matt can't. But Dig can.

Wow. Seriously impressed. I didn't remember this scene at all.

However, those weren't shot from an AR. That was an UZI, an SMG. Uzi uses 9mm bullets with almost the same muzzle velocity as a Glock.

You're right. I even realized this but forgot to correct it before posting. My bad.

And considering Johnny was downed by much less powerful rounds, I'd assume Dig's bullet will go clean through. Same with the revolver shot.

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Im posting the bullet size chart again cause you couldn't have been more wrong. The revolver that shot Johnny Franco was a Smith and Wesson Model 29. It fires .44 Magnum rounds. The second biggest on the chart here. Second only to the .50 Action express fired from Frank's Desert Eagle. You can see here:

https://www.foundryoutdoors.com/blogs/caliber-ballistics-comparison/9mm-luger-parabellum-vs-44-remington-magnum-ammo-comparison-ballistics-info-chart

That the .44 fires slightly faster, but more importantly has about 3 times the force of a 9mm. Diggles better than average ammo or not. I’m sure Franks vest can stand up to a couple shots.

-

Sorry guys. Not quite done yet. My computer just died. I’ll try to finish this later tonight. But for sure after work tomorrow if not.

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TAEP pleaSe.

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Punisher VS 2 Elite Ninjas - Why he beats Spartan.

First let's establish the these two ninjas. When they enter the Yakuza Headquarters every other ninja stops what they are doing and bows to them.

First appearance:

The three black garbed figures landing on the deck. The two bigger ones spring into action decimating the six crew men with throwing stars Okinawan hand sickles and their deadly karate hands and feet. Their work is swift brutal. They are invincible.

Sato - The tall one.

Strength:

Tommy drops the gun. Sato drops the child and backhands Tommy across the room.

Tommy is the 12 year old son of Johnny Franco. He's a kid but still a serious badass in the movie. Obviously manhandling a kid is hardly impressive. But this is just a script quote. In the film Sato is able to wrestle with the Punisher who always easily overpowers the normal ninjas.

Speed:

The tallest black figure springs out and throws his sickle and chain. Castle raises his shotgun and catches the sickles deadly blade. He twists down blowing the chain apart and blasts again at this attacker. The black figure dives into the shadows.

Dodges a shotgun blast from the Punisher.

The kids run down the stairs. Sato at the bottom looks up. Tommy fires 3 shots at him. Sato ducks back.

Dodges 3 handgun shots from Tommy. Who had just speared a yakuza and then shot another.

Castle with Tommy half out the window throws his knife. Sato ducks. The knife slams the door shut revealing one the little children behind it scared sucking her thumb.

Able to dodge a throwing knife from Castle despite him always tagging everyone else no problem.

Accuracy:

Before they can fire they are subdued. The tall black figure neatly slices one man's head open with a sickle attached to a long chain.

Sato is very dangerous with his "Nobu" style chain blade.

Here is a short encounter between Castle and Sato:

No Caption Provided

While Frank is distracted by a little girl. Sate jumps him and manages to disarm him. They have a brief struggle which shows physical equality. Tommy interrupts the fight. Castle capitalizes on the interruption by grabbing a pipe which gives him the necessary damage output to drop Sato instantly.

Tomio - The stout one.

Strength:

As Frank turns the corner a hand grabs his arm. He is flung into a sheaf of boards. Tomio kiais loudly and attacks with a large punch. Castle ducks. The punch smashes through the beam behind him cracking it with awesome force.

Is strong enough to fling 6'4" 220 lb Frank. Also strong enough to crack a wooden beam.

Accuracy:

Before they can fire they are subdued. The tall black figure neatly slices one man's head open with a sickle attached to a long chain. The stout black figure throws two three pronged sai which catch another Mafiosa high and low simultaneously.

Throws his sai with deadly perfection.

Out of nowhere a sai is thrown hitting Castles shotgun out of his hands. The stout black figure charges with two sai raised.

Is even able to disarm Frank of his shotgun with a sai throw.

But what happens when Tomio tries to actually hit Frank with a sai throw?

Out of nowhere a sai is thrown hitting Castles shotgun out of his hands. The stout black figure charges with two sai raised. Castle ducks behind a pillar as a sai aimed for his head hits. He ducks behind a second pillar as another crashes into it. He grabs a block and tackle with a rotting netting and swings it entangling his assailant.

He can't tag him. Frank dodges the throwing knives and just like he did against Sato he used a weapon from the environment to incapacitate his opponent.

Takes them on back to back:

After Frank and Johnny shoot down that army of ninjas. They split up when storming the Yakuza Headquarters. Here is the start of Frank's encounter with the 2 Elites.

No Caption Provided

Both of the ninjas don suits of armor and try to stealth attack Frank. Punisher's senses being too keen alert him to the first attacker Sato. Frank uses the butt of his shotgun to strike Sato across the face knocking him out immediately. So while Diggle might be physically close to Frank. He can still get dropped easy when Frank uses a weapon to amplify his striking power.

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Tomio then attacks Frank with his "Nobu" chain blade. He disarms him of his shotgun. But then Frank is able to dodge multiple swings before being grazed across the chest. A wound he wouldn't have even suffered if he was wearing his bullet proof vest here. The impressive thing is that after being tagged it doesn't stop Frank from being able to dodge the immediate subsequent attacks. Compare this to Daredevil's fight with Nobu where after being sliced across the arms he's soon tagged again across the chest and then the back as well. After dodging all these attacks Frank is able to land a wicked spin kick on his opponent to gain some distance.

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Doing this gave him enough time to grab a bladed staff and easily disarm his opponent of their ranged weapon. Tomio then impressively breaks the staff with a jump kick.

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From there the fight becomes H2H. Frank is able to force his opponent on the defense with his attacks and then Frank uses his size advantage to land a sweet tackle on Tomio. Both Diggle or Matt would certainly be hurt from either a full ledge kick to the face from this giant or a full on charging tackle.

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Tomio realizes he is overpowered by Frank's upper body strength and switches tactics and goes for a series of powerful kicks. An impressive display of both lowkicks and highkicks. All Frank needs to do to take back the edge though is land a well timed elbow to Tomios face and then again grabs an environmental weapon another bladed staff and stabs Tomio through his body armor and lifts his entire body up and pins him to the wall for good measure.

Here's the full fight if you want to watch in without interruption - The Punisher (9/10) Movie CLIP - Double the Punishment (1989).

Now this was a very impressive pure melee encounter. But now I'll show how the fight went down in the comic adaption.

Read right to left.

The Ninjas try the same stealth attack. This time they are a little more successful as one of them is able to tag Frank in the chest with a sai. Fortunately this time Frank is wearing his bullet proof vest and it actually manages to stop the blade. (More proof that this vest is better than Diggle's and another great feat of strength for Punisher as he was able to stab through Franco's vest). Punisher then easily rolls with the attacker and fires a shot into him at point blank while upside down. (Given that I showed these Ninjas previously dodge gunfire it makes this more impressive. He could definitely tag Matt or Diggle in close combat this way). That last shot was conveniently his last. Frank picks up a sword and loses a short encounter (blame the simplified fights in this very short adaption of the film not Franks lack of skill by any means). The bomb set off by Shake throws the ninja off balance and Frank instantly recovers and lands a perfect sword strike to the neck. (Another showing of Frank targeting the throat the same way he can in a fight with his armored opponents here).

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Gilad_the_One

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#37  Edited By Gilad_the_One

Punisher VS Uber Elite Ninja - Tanaka's Daughter - Why he beats Daredevil.

Not much is known about Lady Tanaka's daughter. She's not even given a name and her only background is that she's mute and has been raised since birth by Tanaka and never leaves her side.

Weapons skill:

A Frenchman with a pistol stealthily comes around the corner. He aims to fire when a foot flies out and hits his wrist. His hand the pistol still in it is severed clean. His terrorized POV the smallest figure in black slices with the other foot kicking him in the throat. When the foot comes away a deep gash spurts blood. The black figure takes a handkerchief out of the man's pocket and wipes the side of the bloodied shoe clean.

She has shoe blades that are able to completely cut off a man's hand. And she did this faster than he could fire an already aimed gun. Below is the simplified version from the movie:

No Caption Provided

Before they can fire they are subdued. The tall black figure neatly slices one man's head open with a sickle attached to a long chain. The stout black figure throws two three pronged sai which catch another Mafiosa high and low simultaneously. The third is dispatched by the smallest figure who with the flick of her wrist sends a stiletto-thin blade through the man's throat.

Is an excellent knife thrower on par with the 2 Elites or Frank Castle himself.

No Caption Provided

In an even more impressive showing. She throws her two bladed earrings simultaneously and pins a Mafia leader to a wall through his hands:

No Caption Provided

Stealth:

Castle - Moving along a corridor bloodied but mobile. He opens a shogi screen. His POV. Across the room through the far shogi Tanaka her Daughter and Tommy in silhouette. The daughter's silhouette climbs the wall like a spider disappearing on the roof into the ceiling.

Franco has walked past where Tanaka's daughter is camouflaged into the white ceiling. She makes her way down a short rope and prepares to throw a knife into his back when Castle comes diving through the shogi tackling her into the next shogi wall.

She can climb walls like Spider-Man and is adept at stealth and camouflage. She's able to silently drop behind Franco. And just prior to this Franco was able to out stealth the normal ninjas in their own headquarters.

Punisher takes her out.

No Caption Provided

Frank manages to stealth attack her while she is stealth attacking Franco. Impressive. Realistically Dolph Lundgren tackling this girl would have crippled her. This isn't realistic - this is a movie where they are both extremely durable ninja warriors. Daughter getting up after this attack is her own durability feat not one t use against Frank. Once the fight starters she draws out two knives and fails to tag Frank with either kicks or hand strikes.

No Caption Provided

More kicks and blades slashes that Frank dodges with ease. Effortlessly countering her agility Frank catches her kick then while still holding her leg blocks her punch. Only with both his arms being used cand she finally land a strike on him with her free hand. This punch doesn't even effect Frank and he tosses her through another wall which seemingly knocks her out.

No Caption Provided

She actually feints being knocked out to land a throwing knife in Franks leg. A smart tactic and also the only way she wouldn't have managed such an attack. Below is an excerpt from the script that shows Frank is capable of dodging even her throwing knives:

Castle grasps the woman's wrists. She twists around and under and flips him through the shogi. He rolls and rises. She flicks her wrists a knife barely misses Castle's face and embeds in a beam.

Despite being stabbed in the leg. Frank immediately blocks her kick. Then once again uses his strength advantage to grab her by the throat and pin her to a wall. She pulls off her bladed earrings and cuts both his arms in one move.

No Caption Provided

Frank releases her and she pulls out yet another blade. Which he immediately is able to block and disarm her of. He then goes back to pressing his strength and stranglers her once again. She draws her shoe blades and lands a kick across his face.

No Caption Provided

Frank despite having been cut across the face with a blade capable of severing limbs or deeply slicing open throats. Is able to not only block her next kick but to control her attack swinging her around the way he wants her. Steps in behind her for yet another chokehold. Well simultaneously avoiding being tagged in the leg by her shoe blades. Then snaps her neck when he decides he's had enough. This being a move he can pull off on either Daredevil or Spartan.

Keep in mind this fight was right after the 2 elites fight. So Frank is showing off some insane stamina.

Here's the full fight if you want to watch it: The Punisher (10/10) Movie CLIP - Maximum Punishment (1989)

Here's how it went in the comic:

Read right to left

Frank is able to catch her mid attack. He grabs her wrists and despite getting flung around doesnt even let go. Holding her by her wrists while she is wielding a blade. He just leans into her and lands on her making her stab herself. Yet another insanely good showing of him using his size and strength to his advantage.

Frank is so incredibly dangerous because unlike Fisk or Melvin or nameless Dogs of Hell Biker giant. He's so much more than his physical stats. He's a skilled martial artist but knows when it's appropriate to press his strength edge.

Final Thoughts:

Frank is still the the most well armed and physically toughest person here. As shown in this last round of posts it's not impossible to disarm him. But nothing is stopping him from drawing another one of his firearms as soon as it happens.

No Caption Provided

Frank is still incredibly deadly with his guns at point blank range.

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Even capable of shooting one of the Elites like this.

Frank is capable of taking down armored opponents. Which is very relevant for this particular battle. Here again is Frank being able to stab through armor superior to that of Daredevils or Spartans:

No Caption Provided

In the movie he's actually able to get his firearm around the armor during a melee struggle:

Right to left

Frank is more than his guns though. Grenades will make short work of his opponents and being the only guy here who uses blades to take out his enemies is a massive advantage.

No Caption Provided
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Even without guns/grenades/blades. Frank is still willing to go farther in a fight than either Daredevil or Spartan. He's shown affinity for neck snaps and nutshots as well.

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As shown in the individual fights he has with the Elites prior to the finale fight. Frank uses his environment and anything in it effectively.

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The biggest thing I want to press with this being my final post is that Frank can still make good shots under stress. Here he makes a long range handgun shot while he is running:

No Caption Provided

And even more impressive. A Ninja comes up behind Frank and throws a chain over his face. Despite this being painful and blinding. Frank still manages to shoot his original target.

No Caption Provided

This showing combined with the showing of shooting the Elite makes me think that the Punisher is fully capable of shooting either Diggle or Matt in combat while fighting either of them or both.

I'm looking forward to your guy's final posts. Sorry I took so long to finish this up. And sorry for the grammar/punctuation errors in my posts. My keyboards comma key doesn't work.

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#39  Edited By buildhare

Daredevil: Man Without Fear

No Caption Provided

Took a bit but it's finally here, lets put a bow on this thing!

The size of this post got a way from me a bit so to simplify it here are the "critical arguments" that I'll address first;

  1. There's a gulf of skill between Matt Murdock and his opponents
  2. Daredevil has more than enough damage output to down his foes
  3. Daredevil can avoid his opponents gunfire

...as far as arguments that really seal the deal here, those are the ones that actually matter.

1. Heckin Skilled

This is almost always Murdocks greatest strength and still is here. ASS doesn't seem to believe he's more skilled than either Frank or Diggle and though RBT agrees Matt's more skilled he's still operating under the assumption getting hit/meaningfully tagged is an inevitability, so we clearly disagree on the extent. So first up ASS;

Punisher

ASS: If you are to genuinely compare Matt vs Danny. There is no way in hell the fight should have gone the way it did in Defenders. A simple comparison can be made here. Season 2 Daredevil Daredevil vs Dogs of Hell Gang. Matt takes numerous hits and gets tag and grabbed multiple times by standard criminal bikers - his armored suit is his saving grace. Season 1 Iron Fist Iron fist elevator scene. Danny fights actually skilled Triad members who are armed with hatchets. Danny is fighting weaponless and is wearing only street clothes. Yet he doesn't get tagged at all. And on top of all this Danny fights way less violent than Matt does.

This is ultimately flawed because it ignores the leaps and bounds Daredevil progressed in Season 2. Granted it's still not the low showing you're making out, he fights 27 men in an environment where getting tagged is an inevitability and performs well. A better comparison both in terms of opponent number and fodder quality would be one from Daredevil against the Hand;

No Caption Provided

...where it's clear as day Matt holds the edge;

  1. The Hand are outright better than the Triads, as established in my last post.
  2. More enemies (4<5) that are surrounding him, rather than being forced to squeeze past one another
  3. Matt is more efficient and puts them down in one hit each (bar two for the last)

ASS: - In the first episode of Defenders IronFist fights the Black Sky which should of shown a superiority to Matt. - My main complete is that no one understands the context that angre enraged Defenders Ironfist isn't as skillful as a calm chi centered Ironfist. So beating a baby having a tantrum isn't as impressive as you want it to be.

Danny fights the Black Sky about as well as Matt did, except he has the Iron Fist. He should perform better. I completely agree and off center Rand can be reckless but to argue his skill plummets off a cliff or that Daredevil outperforming him is inconsistent (pre-IF S2 at least) is baseless. Though even if the takeaway was still Matt outmatching Danny only due to his own CIS, how would this somehow make skill a contestable topic for Punisher? This is the same Iron Fist that fought and defeated the Steel Serpent in a confrontation spanning hours, punked dojo-leader Colleen Wing and kicked so many Hand asses in a board room they had to dog pile him. The same Danny Rand that received over a decade of training at Kun-Lun, and has knowledge of pressure points & nerve strikesand how to defend against them. Seriously, Danny could have kicked his ass and short of outright killing Daredevil it would put him streets ahead of his foes here skillfully, never-mind the fact he won.

For good measure lets consider how Franks most martially adept foe Lady Tanaka (idc if she's actually her daughter) stacks up. Outright I want to say Lady Tanaka is clearly portrayed as a skilled fighter who likes to use some fancy moves. With that said I don't think we can garner much about her abilities from what you've posted, other than the fact she's quite good at throwing things and Frank fought her for a bit. Consider her feats outside of fighting Frank, the stuff that would ideally set her up as a Daredevil level threat for him to stop;

She has shoe blades that are able to completely cut off a man's hand. And she did this faster than he could fire an already aimed gun. Below is the simplified version from the movie:

...Lady Tanaka taking down a single mook before he can react is really not what you needed for that argument to make sense. Just to paraphrase her entire wrap sheet;

  1. Can react faster than fodder
  2. Can throw knives well
  3. Can throw her bladed earrings
  4. Fought Punisher

1,2 & 3 on that list are really nothing beyond someone like John Healy in terms of impressiveness;

No Caption Provided

...who destroyed two huge thugs without giving them any time to respond. You remember Healy right? That Defenders Daredevil-level bad guy? Definitely not an essentially no-name villain that got beat by Noob Matt. Fighting the Punisher is obviously the most impressive feat, though given it's also the one bit that's meant to prove Castle can handle uber skilled fighters (which based on feats 1,2 &3, lacks justification to support that placement) it's entirely redundant.

Consider that even characters with one or two appearances (like Healy up there) have feats outside their encounters with Daredevil to establish their level of ability, or a literal mountain of hype behind them (Murakami) to indicate they're highly skilled. Lady Tanaka's daughter clearly lacks either. Though she's clearly skilled it is beyond a wide leap to go from that to arguing she's somehow a peer to Daredevil, who has proven his mettle time and time again.

I don't want to outright say he has no business fighting Daredevil in a melee, but given his best skill feat is facing off and fighting for a prolonged period someone who is both;

  1. Near featless
  2. Has poor feats for the level you've placed her

...I don't see how we can entertain the idea of Castle being competitive up close with the same guy that's danced around people much faster and dropped people much bigger.

Spartan

For RBT:

As I have already said, Matt is more skilled than Dig. But his stats is really lacking. He doesn't have any decent durability feats, certainly none that come even close to Dig's.

Basically the belief is that Matt will outhit Diggle but be unable to do any damage, then eventually get tagged. While I'm gonna contest the latter heavily, only the former is relevant in this section. I think it's a good idea to return back to the Black Sky feat;

Daredevil went untouched here for half a minute against someone who is better than Diggle in every conceivable area, and is laughably more skilled/quicker (feats in Post #2). I don't think you fully appreciate how long that is. Even in a absolute best case scenario where Spartan acquired Elektra-esque abilities, 30 seconds of trying and failing to tag Daredevil is only going to ensure he's shot in the spine by the Punisher. It's simply not good enough with the variables at play here. Unfortunately though with how much worse he is than the Black Sky (hell, use someone like Danny or Bakuto if you want, they tagged him...once?) it's clearly going to take far longer than that, if you can even justify Spartan tagging someone this much his better at all given Matt has shown more than once that he can easily abuse his superior skills and speed to go entirely untouched;

...with the fight between him and Bullseye being all one way traffic in melee despite his superior equipment and wearing DD's suit. Dex gets a bad wrap because of scenes like that, but he's defeated 5 FBI agents in melee so him getting turned into a mook the second he enters melee with an uninjured Daredevil is just a testament to Matt's skill.

2. Daredevils Offense

Franks being portrayed as a physical tank and Diggle's sole sthick here is that he is going to be unphased by Matt's strength and striking, so this is an important category. Unlike what's been described above Daredevil isn't actually a martial artist with the striking power of a small child;

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...he has certainly been eating his spinach. Given literally all of RBT's case is reliant on Diggle's assumed tank status I'll start with him.

Destroying Diggle

Without a doubt the Spartan is a beast, but you're really overplaying his physical prowess imo. Firstly, Matt without his billyclubs has striking in the same tier as fighters like Green Arrow, who can and have put Diggle down in the past. Lets look at that for a second;

Oliver has also broken concrete walls with one arm. Has straight up smashed through a stone statue.

...obviously this is good but Daredevil has performed similar feats;

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...and did something similar with a slam here based on the sound. Given he shattered his concrete with the indirect force of the object (Bakuto in this instance) he was kicking I'd argue it's outright better. Just to reiterate one of Daredevil's pure strength showings;

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...which is better than most if not all of what Diggle has and is on par with one of the best feats either he or Queen can scale to (Emiko's throw). So realistically I don't see a case for Oliver being definitively stronger or hitting considerably harder than someone like Daredevil unarmed, and just by virtue of that alone it should be obvious Diggle isn't tanking anything. Nevermind the fact he's been hurt by far, far less impressive people without a fraction of Daredevils punching power (Cupid, Deadshot, China White are particularly egregious imo) very consistently - so holding him at this level doesn't make a lot of sense even in universe.

Additionally the Canary Cry Fall feat, which is obviously Dig's Crème de la crème showing, is not a consistent portrayal of Spartan's durability at all. This hit is equivalent to basically a fall from terminal velocity off a skyscraper (Diggle dies) + a direct Canary Cry a great distance into a car (Diggle also dies). I have 0 issue calling this an outright super soldier feat. Only issue is when considering basically the other 95% of his showings he's not vaguely on this level, including showings like this;

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...a close range shot totally incapped Dig to the point he couldn't assist the about to be executed Wild Dog. He's clearly a durable character and I'm not contesting that, but he is absolutely well within Daredevils ability to effectively put down.

Pulverizing Punisher

Frank soaking up 20 seconds of attacks that didn't even phase him. Matt's striking power looks to be that of a five year old child against Frank. Frank then lands like only 3 hits and it floors Matt for a good while as Ive already shown.

Franks an extremely durable character but this would still be a low showing if not for the fact this is right at the start of S2, before he improved a lot. Like he's not struggled at all to put Frank down later;

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...leaving him staggered after just two good hits, and it's not like he can't pull that exact combo off here given he's done similar to Fisk. Realistically though Diggle is more durable so the arguments above apply here.

The Billy Clubs

Every feat we've covered in the last two sections is without the exact clubs he'll be using here. They enhance his striking to a ridiculous degree;

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...giving him the ability to beat the absolute shit out of Fisk, who at this point he was still struggling to hurt in just H2H. They also give him options for incap by wrapping them around his enemies, either for choking them out or just yeeting them into stuff. Also noteworthy that apart from Punisher's knife neither of Daredevil's foes have any kind of melee weapons and none with the versatility and reach Daredevil's clubs have. They should prove invaluable here.

3.Gunmen, Awareness & Throwing

As a three-way fight it can't really go understated how important it is to be able to keep aware of all combatants and directions of attack, and avoid said attacks. Obviously Murdock excels in these areas and there's been no real arguments for either the Punisher or Spartan being comparable here. Firstly lets look at what Daredevils foes can hope to achieve here with guns by examining the most comparable foe he's fought, MCU Punisher.

Comparisons to MCU Punisher

RBT has left Diggle's marksmanship showings till his last post, though he's not exactly better than Dolph Punisher iirc so all of this applies equally to the Spartan (though likely to a greater extent given he's only got a pistol);

ASS: Wow that is really impressive. It's too bad that MCU Frank was shooting long range at unaware target while in no danger himself. I'll outright admit that 89 Punisher doesn't have any long range feat like this. But that's irrelevant when his close range feats blow MCU's out of the water. You showed a far away shot from Frank. But what about when he's not far away? What about when he's under fire? is his accuracy still just as good? Hardly. No its not.

No real reasoning for the Diner scene beyond needing information from them but with the van instance he's at long distance against a gunman with an assault rifle, with only one exit to push through. MCU Frank being pinned for a time means very little, especially when he still gets the target in short order anyway. Regardless I don't think this line of debate holds much weight given even in the very clip you used to prove his inferiority he shows exactly how efficient he is in close range;

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...getting a triple head shot in less than a second while bursting from a blind position, which is objectively better than shooting one target center mass while jumping, imo. Next;

ASS: Close range. Two ninjas shoot at Frank with Uzi's. Franks able to duck under the gunfire and shoot them instantly. This is a million times better than MCU Frank failing to hit his targets in the diner.

MCU Frank has performed an almost identical feat;

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...except in this instance;

  1. Franks attention is already focused elsewhere when he's attacked, making it more impressive as a reflex showing.
  2. It's a clean headshot.

MCU Castle having a low showing in the form of the Diner doesn't invalidate all his other showings of extreme accuracy and draw speed (highlighted at the start of my last post, something you didn't really address) and given he's at least comparable with regard to close range "under fire" accuracy;

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...and vastly better at long;

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...even while under the same "under fire" criteria that's apparently required to make it relevant, I think that MCU Punisher comes off looking a fair bit better as a gunslinger. Seemingly nothing Dolph can bring to the table is beyond what Matt's already faced and dealt with in the form of his iteration of the Punisher (as shown way back in Post #1).

Awareness & Avoidance

An underrated aspect of his skill set, Daredevil is extremely stealthy. As Daredevil displayed in that clip possessing a radar sense allows him to track his opponents whereabouts at all times which lets him hide in areas that wouldn't be feasible for someone that lacks it. Basically the end result is that any engagement Daredevil gets in will be of his own accord and take place in melee where he can easily deal with their firearms;

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...the only opening for a shot either gunmen could find would be while Matt is facing off against the other. Even in that scenario he's obviously well equipped to handle cheap shots;

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...like here where Matt hears Turk cock his gun while in the midst of breaking a thugs leg, managing to escape from a prone grapple and leap to safety. Given the fights taking place in a tight warehouse corridor that kind of parkour escape is certainly on the cards. He doesn't actually need to run away though, he can achieve the same thing while closing;

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...and given he did that through submachine gun fire he should be able to do it again here.

Throwing

Daredevil can incorporate billy club throws into the acrobatic dodges above, which is just another way to disarm his foes from a distance;

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...which highlights another useful aspect of having a blunt throwing weapon, the ability to ricochet it. RBT highlighted Diggles speed as a potential solution to being disarmed;

Dig has been able to avoid getting tagged by an arrow for Emiko from a pretty close range. I don't think a baton toss is really going to be reliable to disarm him considering its not particularly fast.

...in that Diggle is reasonably quick (though notably this is a measurably worse feat than Daredevil deflecting and catching more arrows), but many of Murdocks foes have been. It's the unpredictability of the weapon and actual direction of attack that so frequently catches people off-guard, not necessarily the speed at which it's thrown.

Misc Stuff

These ones aren't so important to the actual fight, but I wanted to cover them.

Fisk v Diggle

I don't disagree with the Diggle>Oliver scaling based on in-universe logic but I am kind of confused at the idea of Fisk <<< Diggle in physicals, especially given the logic it relies on. For instance some of your scaling for Diggle relies on the "Big Guy" trope for characters with few feats (like himself);

Oliver, by no means, is the strongest guy in his verse. In fact, he gets overpowered by other people all the time. People bigger than him. In S8, a Russian Cage fighter named Goliath was straight up deemed to be physically superior to Oliver by all his teammates just because he looked bigger than him. So, the bigger guy is stronger is definitely a concept in Arrowverse

...but this same logic can't apply in literally the same context for Kingpin? If anything it's much truer of Fisk as unlike Diggle he's actually manhandled every single character whether it be the Punisher (who per my last post, is far from weak), Bullseye, Anatoly or this poor bastard;

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...who has the distinct pleasure of having his face turned to slush while Fisk kills him. Obviously the most important person for scaling Fisk's strength is Matt Murdock, especially given you're attempting to do the same with Oliver Queen. As covered in the offense section I don't see a case for Oliver being definitively stronger or hitting considerably harder than someone like Daredevil, and just being stronger than Ollie is Diggles sole claim to fame here. Comparatively, Fisk literally overpowered Matt in any physical confrontation like a child. I don't see how we can draw any comparison between both in terms of how they're portrayed (Unrivaled strength in manhandling everyone he's faced vs Pretty Strong guy) or with regards to feats (Fisk actually has a few decent ones + Overpowering established characters with ease vs being stronger than Oliver through statements), let alone somehow give Diggle an advantage. Anyway the Fisk/Diggle comparisons are completely redundant given Matt went far beyond that by his peak;

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...being able to stand and continue fighting after a direct hit from the Black Sky puts him beyond Diggle or Franks ability to easily put down even without the suit.

Matt's Durability and his Suit

RBT: the bigger problem here for Matt isn't Dig's strength really. Its his durability. I have posted some durability feats from Dig in my last post, so I won't post them again, but since you didn't contest those feats, I'm moving ahead with the assumption that you agree Dig is more durable than both Matt and Fisk(someone Matt struggled to put down).

I don't really have an issue with conceding Spartan's more durable than Matt without the suit given he's generally portrayed as a bruiser. However with it as in this fight, Matt likely has an advantage. Daredevil in the suit has stood up to Fisk just beating on him;

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...with reality bending force capable of generating...sparks(???). Point is pretty damn hard given we know how tough the batons are and how strong Fisk is, yet Matt is able to trap his arm and stop the barrage mid assault. There's no question who has the superior armor against firearms and knives though, Diggle has been dropped on his ass just from a point blank handgun blast;

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...now I'm sure Vigilantes packing some serious heat but even with his upgraded armor from Cisco this blast entirely removed him from the fight to the point he couldn't help as Wild Dog was about to be glocked. Compare this to Daredevil receiving a bullet to the chest;

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...which he takes so well you're probably thinking it didn't even happen. Fortunately we immediately get a better look at it;

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...despite being a direct hit the total effect of the wound extends to some minor penetration and bleeding (but given where it hits, clearly nothing more than that or Matt would just be dead) and a barely visible reaction. Given the amount of firearms at play here I think Matt's durability is inherently more relevant then any slight edge Diggle might garner in pure blunt force.

"Defenders Daredevil"

Oh boy here we go. Defenders feats. Yuck.

The real Daredevil seen in season 2 and 3 of his show. He still struggles with Melvin. Bullseye. and Kingpin. He doesn't outclass either Diggle or Punisher by any means.

There's really no argument for this, given we explicitly have a reason for Matt to be out of practice in Season 3 in the form of the building shaped beatdown he received at the end of the Defenders. The tail end of Season 2 and Defenders are Matt as his best as a fighter overall and per the OP it's the iteration relevant here. With that said I think saying he struggled with Bullseye as though it's a bad showing is pretty flawed, given he's capable of thrashing anyone else here as a marksman;

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...consistently capable of ricocheting projectiles and turning any object into a weapon;

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And given Daredevil was consistently outperforming him in melee I'm really not seeing the connection between fighting Dex and a low showing.

Summary

Overall I believe this is a great fight but Daredevil really has all the tools he needs to save the day.

  • He's far more skilled than either of his opponents, to the point they will struggle to land hits where he will land many.
  • Matt's more than strong enough to break the bruisers, assisted by his gear.
  • Daredevil has faced and avoided better gunmen through his acrobatics and speed, if he's unlucky enough to be detected before he reaches melee he can escape or close with relative ease.

Sorry about the length, best of luck with voting!

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#44  Edited By AllStarSuperman

@buildhare: Don’t worry. RBT is fast, like Forrest Gump. Except he’s not an idiot

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@buildhare: Don’t worry. RBT is fast, like Forrest Gump. Except he’s not an idiot

There's so much wrong with this statement.

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Oh yeah.

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Alright. I'll try and get my post up before the end of this year.

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@rbt:

Try to keep it realistic please no one has that much faith in you

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@rbt:

Try to keep it realistic please no one has that much faith in you

I wish I could disagree with this.