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#1 Posted by 69ball-z-deep (1087 posts) - - Show Bio

Chance encounter

Standard gear( RE 6 gear for Leon)

Starts 100 feet apart

Location: abandoned ship yard

In character

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#2 Posted by nerdchore (8059 posts) - - Show Bio

Dick wins. Poor leon :(

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#3 Posted by nickzambuto (29288 posts) - - Show Bio

I don't think Nightwing actually has any feats to say he's really above Leon.

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#4 Posted by ALLCAPS_34 (752 posts) - - Show Bio

Leon

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#5 Posted by jashro44 (51888 posts) - - Show Bio

I don't think Nightwing actually has any feats to say he's really above Leon.

Why not? He recently held his own against batman, he's beaten cheshire, and has a nice stalemate with Cassandra cain.

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#6 Posted by Blade_R (6470 posts) - - Show Bio

Leon shoots him in the head and kills him.

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#7 Posted by Comicdude360 (3245 posts) - - Show Bio

Nightwing.

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#8 Posted by dondave (41748 posts) - - Show Bio

Dick

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#9 Posted by Artyom (6880 posts) - - Show Bio

Richard

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#10 Posted by Emperorb777 (10827 posts) - - Show Bio

Nightwing

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#11 Posted by Cream_God (15519 posts) - - Show Bio

Dick

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#12 Posted by 69ball-z-deep (1087 posts) - - Show Bio

bump

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#14 Edited by sync1 (3262 posts) - - Show Bio

Nightwing ez

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#15 Posted by nickzambuto (29288 posts) - - Show Bio

@jashro44 said:

@nickzambuto said:

I don't think Nightwing actually has any feats to say he's really above Leon.

Why not? He recently held his own against batman, he's beaten cheshire, and has a nice stalemate with Cassandra cain.

Nightwing has never really been top tier. His fight against Batman was an emotion-fueled sparring match, they were just angry and throwing each other around, neither of them really used much martial arts. Considering Pre-52 Nightwing could barely stand up to an insane Batman clone with no intelligence to speak of and only muscle memory, I really don't think a serious Bruce utilizing all of his strategic skill would have much trouble defeating Dick. Their skirmish during Bruce Wayne Fugitive showed this as well.

He didn't really stalemate Cassandra Cain either, their fight lasted like, three pages and then Alfred showed up to stop them. Considering Leon is regularly portrayed as superior to some of the best martial artists in the world, I see no reason to believe he couldn't stand up to Cass for a similar amount of time.

Cheshire is legit, I don't think there's any real context behind Nightwing beating her. However I don't think it's enough on it's own to put Nightwing out of Leon's league. I can pretty much prove Leon is highly trained in (or has even mastered) at least 8 or 9 different martial arts. The list goes:

Ninjutsu;

Taekwondo;

Muay Thai;

Aikido;

Karate;

Krav Maga;

Brazilian Jiu Jitsu;

Judo;

Wrestling.

Knife fighting is an entirely separate class, which Leon is a complete master of. He basically humiliated Ada Wong during RE4 while giving her tips on fighting techniques, and he even held his own against the mutated Jack Krauser, who's highly skilled in his own right. Considering the substantial advantage Leon has in strength and physicality, I don't see CQC as clearly going either way. Nightwing has his escrima sticks to even the odds, but let's not forget what Leon actually specializes in: Guns. Call me crazy, but I just think that saying Nightwing is capable of outfighting one of the world's best knife fighters when at a physical disadvantage while simultaneously avoiding gunfire, grenades, and other such weaponry all in the hands of an extremely talented and experienced strategist, might be taxing his abilities just a bit when his only real advantage is a few of the more specialized gadgets he sometimes uses (because Leon probably has some counter to most of Nightwing's gadgets in his arsenal, just more lethal and dangerous)

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#16 Edited by AllStarSuperman (42637 posts) - - Show Bio

@jashro44 said:

@nickzambuto said:

I don't think Nightwing actually has any feats to say he's really above Leon.

Why not? He recently held his own against batman, he's beaten cheshire, and has a nice stalemate with Cassandra cain.

He has also taken on Deathstroke about a thousand times. He can now move read, use pressure points and nerve pinches, and his tech is an edge. His new 52 suit is capable of tanking helicopter machine guns, from what I have read on Leon I don't see him beating dick. haha

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#17 Posted by ntb101 (956 posts) - - Show Bio

dick puts the nightwing on him

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#18 Posted by 69ball-z-deep (1087 posts) - - Show Bio

bump

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#20 Posted by OreoAssassin (7625 posts) - - Show Bio

Nightwing but we shouldnt underestimate Leon

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#22 Posted by jashro44 (51888 posts) - - Show Bio

Nightwing has never really been top tier. His fight against Batman was an emotion-fueled sparring match, they were just angry and throwing each other around, neither of them really used much martial arts. Considering Pre-52 Nightwing could barely stand up to an insane Batman clone with no intelligence to speak of and only muscle memory, I really don't think a serious Bruce utilizing all of his strategic skill would have much trouble defeating Dick. Their skirmish during Bruce Wayne Fugitive showed this as well.

Nightwing has also held his own against batman with super powers in the past. They had a spar in the new 52 which was pretty brutal and nightwing got some solid hits in. Also all though the clone didn't have batmans intelligence iIRC wasn't it amped in the lazarus pit?

I agree nightwing isn't a top tier fighter but he's not that far off.

He didn't really stalemate Cassandra Cain either, their fight lasted like, three pages and then Alfred showed up to stop them. Considering Leon is regularly portrayed as superior to some of the best martial artists in the world, I see no reason to believe he couldn't stand up to Cass for a similar amount of time.

They fought longer than that and nightwing got some solid hits in. it also ended with both of them having there hands on each others throat.

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Right to left.

No I don't think Leon can touch Cass. I disagree.

Cheshire is legit, I don't think there's any real context behind Nightwing beating her. However I don't think it's enough on it's own to put Nightwing out of Leon's league. I can pretty much prove Leon is highly trained in (or has even mastered) at least 8 or 9 different martial arts. The list goes:

Its not all about the number of styles you've mastered. I can't remember the styles nightwing has mastered off the top of my head though.

Knife fighting is an entirely separate class, which Leon is a complete master of. He basically humiliated Ada Wong during RE4 while giving her tips on fighting techniques, and he even held his own against the mutated Jack Krauser, who's highly skilled in his own right. Considering the substantial advantage Leon has in strength and physicality, I don't see CQC as clearly going either way. Nightwing has his escrima sticks to even the odds, but let's not forget what Leon actually specializes in: Guns. Call me crazy, but I just think that saying Nightwing is capable of outfighting one of the world's best knife fighters when at a physical disadvantage while simultaneously avoiding gunfire, grenades, and other such weaponry all in the hands of an extremely talented and experienced strategist, might be taxing his abilities just a bit when his only real advantage is a few of the more specialized gadgets he sometimes uses (because Leon probably has some counter to most of Nightwing's gadgets in his arsenal, just more lethal and dangerous)

Nightwing himself is pretty accurate with the use of throwing weapons, including his own batarangs. He's dodged heat vision from batman (yes from batman) so its not like he's never avoided a good marksman before. In fact he's the best acrobat in the entire DC universe. He's going to close the gap. I don't think the physical gap between nightwing and Leon is that big. He kicked Brutal hard enough that he sent him flying out of a car, and broke the door off the hinges in the process. IIRC he's held open the jaws of an orca. He recently tanked hits from batman after batman kicked the bat bike in half.

Leon may have foughten Krauser, but nightwing has beaten down captain boomerang in hand to hand. He may not be a skilled fighter but he's way faster than krauser is.

@jashro44 said:

@nickzambuto said:

I don't think Nightwing actually has any feats to say he's really above Leon.

Why not? He recently held his own against batman, he's beaten cheshire, and has a nice stalemate with Cassandra cain.

He has also taken on Deathstroke about a thousand times. He can now move read, use pressure points and nerve pinches, and his tech is an edge. His new 52 suit is capable of tanking helicopter machine guns, from what I have read on Leon I don't see him beating dick. haha

I was planning on trying to stay away from nightwings showings against deathstroke. All though yea he does have some decent fights with Slade, he's lost before to be fair.

And his suit can tank helicopter machine gun fire now? 0_O Scans?

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#23 Edited by AllStarSuperman (42637 posts) - - Show Bio

@jashro44:

And his suit can tank helicopter machine gun fire now? 0_O Scans?

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Nightwing issue 19, The first two scans are the opening of the issue, the third is it shown again later in the same issue.

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#24 Posted by jashro44 (51888 posts) - - Show Bio
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#25 Posted by 69ball-z-deep (1087 posts) - - Show Bio

bump

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#26 Posted by colliderz (4756 posts) - - Show Bio

Leon

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#27 Posted by Nerd Of A Hero (1162 posts) - - Show Bio

Nightwing wins. Mismatch!

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#28 Edited by badazz (757 posts) - - Show Bio

In character you say? They walk up to each other since they're both good guys, but a zombie bites Nightwing forcing Leon to round house kick his head clean off.

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#29 Posted by nerdchore (8059 posts) - - Show Bio

@jashro44:

And his suit can tank helicopter machine gun fire now? 0_O Scans?

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3

Nightwing issue 19, The first two scans are the opening of the issue, the third is it shown again later in the same issue.

that was so awesome to read. thanks :)

this just reaffirms that nightwing wins.

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#30 Posted by 69ball-z-deep (1087 posts) - - Show Bio

pretty even so far. nice

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#31 Posted by Aenvus (191 posts) - - Show Bio

Leon.

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#32 Posted by nickzambuto (29288 posts) - - Show Bio

@jashro44:

Nightwing has also held his own against batman with super powers in the past.

Really? I'm sure there's some context to point out, but I'm unfamiliar with this instance so I guess I'll take your word on it. Not as if Leon doesn't battle hordes of superhumans on the daily, but I guess none of them are Batman.

They had a spar in the new 52 which was pretty brutal and nightwing got some solid hits in.

That's what I was talking about, it was an emotionally-fueled sparring match. They weren't have a contest of martial arts, they were screaming and throwing each other around, not to mention it was just a spar. I really don't think this instance is anything to put Nightwing over Leon.

Also all though the clone didn't have batmans intelligence iIRC wasn't it amped in the lazarus pit?

That might be true, but in that case Nightwing lost to a berserker 2 tonner with no intelligence. Leon kills creatures like that as cannon fodder.

They fought longer than that and nightwing got some solid hits in. it also ended with both of them having there hands on each others throat.

No I don't think Leon can touch Cass. I disagree.

I am positive Leon could replicate this fight, if you disagree then let me just break it down for a minute.

The fight begins with Cass punching Dick and then Dick kicking her. Then Dick runs up a wall out of Cassandra's reach and nails her with another kick, followed by Cassandra retaliating by grabbing Dick's arm and elbowing him in the head and grabbing his throat. Then Cassandra asks if he's had enough and Dick puts one hand against her throat, though clearly he's not at any advantage.

All in all Dick landed two kicks and got punched twice. The fight lasted less than 10 seconds, if you're saying Leon couldn't last that long against Cassandra then I don't know what to say. Nightwing, despite being less skilled, was able to match her by relying on his own strength: acrobatics. Tim Drake did the same thing to Cass by relying on his strength, stick fighting, as did Batman by using his tactical skills and even the Joker by being unpredictable. The bottom line is Cassandra Cain isn't nearly as invincible as certain users make her out to be, considering Leon has the exact same strength as Nightwing (acrobatics) I don't see why he couldn't land two kicks and tank two punches just like he did.

Svetlana Belikova is the premier combat instructor of the whole Eastern Slav Republic, she taught fighting techniques to an entire army and basically toyed with Ada Wong. When Leon fought her, his fighting style was extremely limited to only trying to capture her, he wasn't actually trying to fight, and on top of that he was caught completely off guard because he thought she was just a civilian. Yet despite that, he was still able to adapt and think quickly against her assault and fend off every attack.

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The fight ended with neither landing a single hit. Considering they each threw more punches in just 25 seconds then most battle scenes do in total, I think that says a lot to their skill and swiftness.

Leon was also able to fight against Chris Redfield on even ground. I'm gonna go out on a limb and say that Chris has displayed better instincts and technical knowledge then Nightwing ever has, and his ability to fight against BOWs with just his bare hands speaks volumes to his skill, yet Leon clearly outfought him during this confrontation what with disarming his rifle, cleverly force-holstering his pistol, and breaking/countering numerous holds whereas Chris's edge was more in his physical prowess.

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Are Svetlana and Chris on par with Cassandra Cain? No. Are they comparable to Nightwing though? Yes. Again I must stress the fact that Nightwing's fight with Cass lasted about 10 seconds, and even then, Cassandra had a clear advantage. If all it takes is 10 seconds for Cassandra to get the better of Dick, then I don't think they're in the same league.

And one thing all of these fights had in common is that Leon was unarmed. With his knife, he's really in an entirely different skill class, he's able to stomp characters that would otherwise give him a hard time.

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In this scene Leon easily outreacted and outsmarted Ada Wong. I'd put money on Ada being more agile, smarter, and a comparable fighter to Nightwing. The chainsaw J'avo is a super fast and powerful mutation, even Jake and Sherry with their superhuman abilities failed to defeat it. Yet Ada treated it like a nuisance at best.

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00:20 Ada casually evades the monster by jumping over it.

4:05 Ada dodges the monster's chainsaw with little warning.

8:50 Ada avoids each of the monster's attacks and counters it in midair.

And yet Ada was no match for Leon.

Its not all about the number of styles you've mastered. I can't remember the styles nightwing has mastered off the top of my head though.

It's six.

Nightwing himself is pretty accurate with the use of throwing weapons, including his own batarangs.

Can he land multiple headshots from over 50 yards away in complete darkness without aiming? There's also the undeniable advantage of any firearm>>>batarangs.

He's dodged heat vision from batman (yes from batman) so its not like he's never avoided a good marksman before. In fact he's the best acrobat in the entire DC universe. He's going to close the gap.

Leon has tagged faster characters than Nightwing before, like Krauser. I bet Batman launched one blast of heat vision at Nightwing and all it took was one jump to get away, but Leon is going to be giving him prolonged fire.

I don't think the physical gap between nightwing and Leon is that big. He kicked Brutal hard enough that he sent him flying out of a car, and broke the door off the hinges in the process. IIRC he's held open the jaws of an orca. He recently tanked hits from batman after batman kicked the bat bike in half.

Leon regularly outmuscles super humans and can support a ludicrous amount of weight. Del Lago weighed like, 50 tons yet Leon was able to resist getting his leg ripped off when the monster died and they were tied together.

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Leon may have foughten Krauser, but nightwing has beaten down captain boomerang in hand to hand. He may not be a skilled fighter but he's way faster than krauser is.

But whereas Boomerang is fast, Krauser is fast, smart, skilled, strong, tactical, and experienced. You ever try watching their knife fight in slow motion? It's one of my favorite fight scenes in fiction because it really shows just how skilled these two fighters are. Pay attention to their moves, it's pretty cool when you really dissect things.

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I'm in a rush now so I can't elaborate as much as I'd like, but one thing I'd like to add is that I don't really think it's fair to use New and Pre 52 feats for Nightwing, since they had completely different abilities and gear. It's established that Pre-52 Nightwing wore very very light armor so as not to hinder his agility, and that's where he got all those great acrobatic feats from, yet in the New-52 he's apparently decked enough to tank gatling gun fire.

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#33 Posted by 69ball-z-deep (1087 posts) - - Show Bio
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#34 Edited by jashro44 (51888 posts) - - Show Bio

@nickzambuto:

Really? I'm sure there's some context to point out, but I'm unfamiliar with this instance so I guess I'll take your word on it. Not as if Leon doesn't battle hordes of superhumans on the daily, but I guess none of them are Batman.

Batman had supermans powers but because he only came up at night he was weakened:

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All though he was also more brutal at the time.

That's what I was talking about, it was an emotionally-fueled sparring match. They weren't have a contest of martial arts, they were screaming and throwing each other around, not to mention it was just a spar. I really don't think this instance is anything to put Nightwing over Leon.

I disagree. People like nightwing and batman can't just turn their skill off that easily due to muscle memory. And it was pretty brutal for a spar. I mean batman kicked the bat bike in half and they tore the cave apart.....

That might be true, but in that case Nightwing lost to a berserker 2 tonner with no intelligence. Leon kills creatures like that as cannon fodder.

Dick never lost. And all though I agree he was feral as you said he was operating on muscle memory so he did still have skill. Maybe not his tactical ability but even so its not a bad showing. Also the lazarus pitt is suppose to increase someones strength by 10X I think (I need to double check). I don't know how strong batman was but it is possible it could have been over 2 tons.

I am positive Leon could replicate this fight, if you disagree then let me just break it down for a minute.

Disagreed.

The fight begins with Cass punching Dick and then Dick kicking her. Then Dick runs up a wall out of Cassandra's reach and nails her with another kick, followed by Cassandra retaliating by grabbing Dick's arm and elbowing him in the head and grabbing his throat. Then Cassandra asks if he's had enough and Dick puts one hand against her throat, though clearly he's not at any advantage.

Agreed.

All in all Dick landed two kicks and got punched twice. The fight lasted less than 10 seconds, if you're saying Leon couldn't last that long against Cassandra then I don't know what to say. Nightwing, despite being less skilled, was able to match her by relying on his own strength: acrobatics.

I don't think leon can last long against Cass.

Tim Drake did the same thing to Cass by relying on his strength, stick fighting,

Never happened. They fought once in a fight which was staged in order to fool the penguin. IN the same story Tim was stomped by shrike who in turn got destroyed by Cass.

as did Batman by using his tactical skills

Batman is above Leon.

and even the Joker by being unpredictable.

This was a plot device to give joker a chance. Leon isn't insane, and even if he is he isn't as crazy as the joker which is why joker was so unpredictable. They said she can read joker just fine its just his body language makes no sense. Even if you proved Leon were unpredictable like Joker this isn't about Cass its about nightwing, and Grayson can't rely on unpredictability.

The bottom line is Cassandra Cain isn't nearly as invincible as certain users make her out to be, considering Leon has the exact same strength as Nightwing (acrobatics) I don't see why he couldn't land two kicks and tank two punches just like he did.

Because Leon isn't as skilled. Cass has beaten shiva more than once, has done rather well against deathstroke, and stalemated batman despite Bruce using the environment and some gear to his advantage. Her body reading makes her almost impossible to fool unless you're completely insane. She can copy skills instantly as well. I can't think of any losses in hand to hand from Cass, which don't have some kind of context around them to be honest.

Svetlana Belikova is the premier combat instructor of the whole Eastern Slav Republic, she taught fighting techniques to an entire army and basically toyed with Ada Wong. When Leon fought her, his fighting style was extremely limited to only trying to capture her, he wasn't actually trying to fight, and on top of that he was caught completely off guard because he thought she was just a civilian. Yet despite that, he was still able to adapt and think quickly against her assault and fend off every attack.

The fight ended with neither landing a single hit. Considering they each threw more punches in just 25 seconds then most battle scenes do in total, I think that says a lot to their skill and swiftness.

Which is impressive but I don't think it compares to some of the opponents referenced for nightwing. All though just to add to the list nightwings beaten Ras Al Ghul in a sword fight (which plays to Ras strengths), and still won. Ras has hundreds of years of experience, and Ras has quite the resume in sword fighting:

Ras listing all his sword fighting experience.
Ras listing all his sword fighting experience.

I think Ras is comparable to Svetlana. He also ended up winning the above sword fight with Bane if thats worth anything.

Leon was also able to fight against Chris Redfield on even ground. I'm gonna go out on a limb and say that Chris has displayed better instincts and technical knowledge then Nightwing ever has, and his ability to fight against BOWs with just his bare hands speaks volumes to his skill, yet Leon clearly outfought him during this confrontation what with disarming his rifle, cleverly force-holstering his pistol, and breaking/countering numerous holds whereas Chris's edge was more in his physical prowess.

Leon disarmed him of his assault rifle using stealth. And all though he countered some holds so did Chris. I think they were pretty even. I don't think Chris has better skill than nightwing either given the opponents nightwing has fought.

Are Svetlana and Chris on par with Cassandra Cain? No. Are they comparable to Nightwing though? Yes. Again I must stress the fact that Nightwing's fight with Cass lasted about 10 seconds, and even then, Cassandra had a clear advantage. If all it takes is 10 seconds for Cassandra to get the better of Dick, then I don't think they're in the same league.

I don't think Cass got the better of him. She did ask him if he had enough but they both got hits in. And all though it only lasted 10 seconds lets keep in mind how fast the average street leveller is, 10 seconds can be a long time in comic martial arts battles. And even than we don't know how long the fight was.

And one thing all of these fights had in common is that Leon was unarmed. With his knife, he's really in an entirely different skill class, he's able to stomp characters that would otherwise give him a hard time.

In this scene Leon easily outreacted and outsmarted Ada Wong. I'd put money on Ada being more agile, smarter, and a comparable fighter to Nightwing. The chainsaw J'avo is a super fast and powerful mutation, even Jake and Sherry with their superhuman abilities failed to defeat it. Yet Ada treated it like a nuisance at best.

I didn't see to much knife fighting skills. All he really did was put the knife to her throat. I don't know much about Ada but isn't she comparable to catwoman? I remember you saying she would have been the perfect fight for catwoman once. Dick has done similar to selina.

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Right to left

00:20 Ada casually evades the monster by jumping over it.

4:05 Ada dodges the monster's chainsaw with little warning.

8:50 Ada avoids each of the monster's attacks and counters it in midair.

And yet Ada was no match for Leon.

Looks like she is fighting a skilless brute. As for her reacting to the chain saw with little warning Nightwing has done similar with bullets:

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Right to left. The first scan is Dick for the record.

It's six.

I thought so but wasn't sure.

Can he land multiple headshots from over 50 yards away in complete darkness without aiming? There's also the undeniable advantage of any firearm>>>batarangs.

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Right to left.

He's managed to tag the flash who was moving as a blur with the bate rope, He's thrown guns at police officers hitting them in the temple to knock them out, he's hit two faces coin while he was flipping it curving his batarang in the process, and had his batarang intercept a laser with ricochet shots.

Leon has tagged faster characters than Nightwing before, like Krauser. I bet Batman launched one blast of heat vision at Nightwing and all it took was one jump to get away, but Leon is going to be giving him prolonged fire.

4 shots at like point blank:

No Caption Provided

Leon regularly outmuscles super humans and can support a ludicrous amount of weight. Del Lago weighed like, 50 tons yet Leon was able to resist getting his leg ripped off when the monster died and they were tied together.

You sure he was resisting it?

But whereas Boomerang is fast, Krauser is fast, smart, skilled, strong, tactical, and experienced. You ever try watching their knife fight in slow motion? It's one of my favorite fight scenes in fiction because it really shows just how skilled these two fighters are. Pay attention to their moves, it's pretty cool when you really dissect things.

I agree its very impressive. All though to be fair Krauser did have the upper hand until Ada showed up. Still though I think boomerang is a lot faster. He's deflecting bullets with paperclips IIRC. Also there is the super-bat feat.

I'm in a rush now so I can't elaborate as much as I'd like, but one thing I'd like to add is that I don't really think it's fair to use New and Pre 52 feats for Nightwing, since they had completely different abilities and gear. It's established that Pre-52 Nightwing wore very very light armor so as not to hinder his agility, and that's where he got all those great acrobatic feats from, yet in the New-52 he's apparently decked enough to tank gatling gun fire.

Well the bat family is for the most part the same but I will try to avoid new 52 gear and referencing new 52 feats. I'm not to familiar with new 52 nightwing anyways.

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#35 Posted by Zombiekiller93 (4 posts) - - Show Bio

Leon wins bc Leon can just shoot Dick in the head

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#36 Posted by MICKEY-MOUSE (36323 posts) - - Show Bio

@jashro44 said:

@nickzambuto said:

I don't think Nightwing actually has any feats to say he's really above Leon.

Why not? He recently held his own against batman, he's beaten cheshire, and has a nice stalemate with Cassandra cain.

Pffft...pathetic Nightwing. You're no Redhood son... ;p

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#37 Posted by jashro44 (51888 posts) - - Show Bio

@lukehero said:

@jashro44 said:

@nickzambuto said:

I don't think Nightwing actually has any feats to say he's really above Leon.

Why not? He recently held his own against batman, he's beaten cheshire, and has a nice stalemate with Cassandra cain.

Pffft...pathetic Nightwing. You're no Redhood son... ;p

I was saving it for later but nightwing has already beaten the street god known as Jason Todd.

@nickzambuto Also for the record Dick got the drop on batman who was able to hear everything in Gotham city at the time. Thats a good stealth feat.

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#38 Edited by MICKEY-MOUSE (36323 posts) - - Show Bio

@jashro44:

I was saving it for later but nightwing has already beaten the street god known as Jason Todd.

Who wrote such a blasphemous story? GIVE ME NAME!!!!!! No seriously what's the issue number? Did I miss it or something? Cause I've read a lot of the New 52 stuff with Redhood.

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#39 Posted by jashro44 (51888 posts) - - Show Bio
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#40 Edited by MICKEY-MOUSE (36323 posts) - - Show Bio

@jashro44: Oh, yeag....oh, was Bane on venom in that scan you showed?

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#41 Posted by AllStarSuperman (42637 posts) - - Show Bio

@lukehero said:

@jashro44 said:

@nickzambuto said:

I don't think Nightwing actually has any feats to say he's really above Leon.

Why not? He recently held his own against batman, he's beaten cheshire, and has a nice stalemate with Cassandra cain.

Pffft...pathetic Nightwing. You're no Redhood son... ;p

Agreed Jason has given Batman better fights, and one shotted Shiva.

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#42 Posted by 69ball-z-deep (1087 posts) - - Show Bio

bump

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#43 Posted by jashro44 (51888 posts) - - Show Bio

@lukehero said:

@jashro44: Oh, yeag....oh, was Bane on venom in that scan you showed?

No. Its from bane of the demon #4:

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Here the full fight if you want it.

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#44 Posted by Hollow_Point (1431 posts) - - Show Bio
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#45 Posted by DarthAznable (16928 posts) - - Show Bio
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#46 Posted by AllStarSuperman (42637 posts) - - Show Bio

@jashro44 said:

@lukehero: Oh I was referring to Batman: Battle for the Cowl #3 - Last Man Standing. It was pre flashpoint.

I just read BftC. That fight is kinda PISy. Jason was not in the write mind. And he has given Batman better fights then Grayson has. Jason had the full force of plot against him, as he was the badguy. And Nightwing didn't even truly win, he just kicked Jason off the train.

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#47 Posted by jashro44 (51888 posts) - - Show Bio

@jashro44 said:

@lukehero: Oh I was referring to Batman: Battle for the Cowl #3 - Last Man Standing. It was pre flashpoint.

I just read BftC. That fight is kinda PISy. Jason was not in the write mind. And he has given Batman better fights then Grayson has. Jason had the full force of plot against him, as he was the badguy. And Nightwing didn't even truly win, he just kicked Jason off the train.

I disagree. Jason used fear gas, set a trap for nightwing while electrocuting him, and used explosives during the fight and nightwing still had the upper hand IMO. He may have been a bit unstable but that didn't seem to affect him much. He was clearly still using tactics given all the prep he had. Jason hasn't actually done better against batman. He did well in their first fight but nightwing did well against super batman which is more impressive. Jason was doing well in his second fight until batman stopped holding back than Jason got stomped. There is one page in the new 52 which shows Jason standing over batman but we have no context to my knowledge.

Jasons track record against bruce isn't much better.

Agreed Jason has given Batman better fights, and one shotted Shiva.

Him one shotting shiva is PIS assuming shiva is still in the tier she was pre flashpoint. If you want to go off of these sorts of showings Dick has humiliated deathstroke.

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And new 52 lady shiva hasn't done much. She beat batman after ambushing him with poisons. She fought nightwing when he had broken ribs. Besides Jason fighting shiva can be averaged out with his showing against damian:

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#48 Posted by Flash_PHOBIA (145 posts) - - Show Bio

Dick easily

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#49 Posted by AllStarSuperman (42637 posts) - - Show Bio

@jashro44 said:

I disagree. Jason used fear gas, set a trap for nightwing while electrocuting him, and used explosives during the fight and nightwing still had the upper hand IMO. He may have been a bit unstable but that didn't seem to affect him much. He was clearly still using tactics given all the prep he had. Jason hasn't actually done better against batman. He did well in their first fight but nightwing did well against super batman which is more impressive. Jason was doing well in his second fight until batman stopped holding back than Jason got stomped. There is one page in the new 52 which shows Jason standing over batman but we have no context to my knowledge.

Yeah, it was PIS (imho) to assume that Jason with prep gets dominated by Nightwing. If they are on the same tier, which they are, Dick should not have won so easily. Like I said he had the full force of the plot against him. Nightwing was the good guy, Jason was the bad guy, as simple as that.

Jason was doing awesome against Batman in the first fight, and no Batman wasn't holding back, he had no reason to. Both Nightwing and Bruce complemented Jason's skill several times in UtRH. The second fight is Batman raging out. That's not him "stopping holding back", he had no reason to hold back originally.

Nightwing's fight against SuperBatman could be attributed to Batman losing skill when gaining powers.

Jasons track record against bruce isn't much better.

It actually is. Jason fought him awesomely in both Hush and the first fight of Red Hood. And then in that single page in the New 52. Dicks showings against Batman suck for the most part. That crappy fight in Batman 600 where he can't land a single hit, then another crappy fight in Nightwing 30 were they punch each other through batmobiles and other armored crap.

Him one shotting shiva is PIS assuming shiva is still in the tier she was pre flashpoint. If you want to go off of these sorts of showings Dick has humiliated deathstroke.

I guess. Or they could just be called high showings.

And new 52 lady shiva hasn't done much. She beat batman after ambushing him with poisons. She fought nightwing when he had broken ribs. Besides Jason fighting shiva can be averaged out with his showing against damian:

Another PIS fight. Jason was worn out. Psyched out by the crowbar. And refusing to fight. That's not a valid battle for the forums by any means. Crazy Jason (from Battle for the Cowl) literally one shotted Damian.

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#50 Edited by jashro44 (51888 posts) - - Show Bio

@jashro44:

Nightwing's fight against SuperBatman could be attributed to Batman losing skill when gaining powers.

He may have relied more on powers but he never lost his skill completely. Some of it was still there. Skill doesn't just go away like that.

It actually is. Jason fought him awesomely in both Hush and the first fight of Red Hood. And then in that single page in the New 52. Dicks showings against Batman suck for the most part. That crappy fight in Batman 600 where he can't land a single hit, then another crappy fight in Nightwing 30 were they punch each other through batmobiles and other armored crap.

The fight in hush was clayface. So that doesn't count. He had 2 fights in under the red hood and again he got stomped when batman realized he couldn't hold back anymore.

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This is the page batman started cutting loose:

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All Jason did was get in one slash with his knife and even then that was because he literally landed on top of batman who was lying down. You can say nightwings fight in bruce wayne fugitive was worst but really Jason never stood a chance against batman either. And I could argue that nightwing was just lashing out if we are considering mindsets. And I view batman and nightwings fight in nightwing 30 as way more impressive than the above or the one batman had with Jason in batman 641. The one in nightwing 30 was far more bloody and brutal despite being just a spar.

I guess. Or they could just be called high showings.

Well DIck fought midnighter in the new 52 and did alright. Midnighter may have been holding back but midnighter should be way above shiva.

Another PIS fight. Jason was worn out. Psyched out by the crowbar. And refusing to fight. That's not a valid battle for the forums by any means.

I agree. But if Jason were shiva level none of those factors should have helped Damian. None of that would make a difference. Damian is pretty low on the totem pole as far as martial artists go.

Crazy Jason (from Battle for the Cowl) literally one shotted Damian.

No he didn't. He tossed Damian to the side and one shotted him in batman battle for the cowl #2.