Legends Darth Vader vs Canon Palpatine

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NinjaWarrior268

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#1  Edited By NinjaWarrior268
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Vs

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Rules

-Vader from Legends versus canon Palapatine

-in character

-both get light sabers

-no prep

-win by any means

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americanspeeddemon

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Bump i like this idea what are vader's best feats in the legends verse i heard he was good but not unstoppable.

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SirFizzWhizz

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#3  Edited By SirFizzWhizz

Legends Vader makes Disney Palpatine his b1tch.

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americanspeeddemon

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@sirfizzwhizz: what are his feats sidious is still pretty impressive

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SirFizzWhizz

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@americanspeeddemon: Everything Vader does in Canon is better than Sidious. Im not sure why The Force unleash feats alone are not reference enough lol.

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americanspeeddemon

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SirFizzWhizz

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americanspeeddemon

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@sirfizzwhizz: canon vader has nothing on sidious except amount of feats sidious has proven a better duelist fighting both maul and savage at once when vader's best duel is, i don't know probably rotj luke. There telekinesis is about even and sidious has lightning and sith sorcery

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@americanspeeddemon: Vader negates Lightning with Tutaminis and his Saber.

Canon Palpatine has no Sith sorcery in battle. Legends Vader does, illusions.

Legends Vader by speed feats is faster, by a lot.

Canon Palpatine best Force feat is 100 tons. Legends Vader is able to match Starkiller, move 1000s of tons, and more.

Legends Vader fights Starkiller, Galen, Luke, clone Darth Maul, and dozens of Jedi at once. Canon Palpatine only bested Maul and Savage? Not much more impressive mate.

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americanspeeddemon

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@sirfizzwhizz: yeah i thought you meant canon vader could beat sidious.

He also fought 4 jedi masters and council members at once and killed three of them in less than 5 seconds, fought yoda and had the advantage, rag dolled maul and force choked dooku from across the galaxy, can bring down ships with only a fraction of his power. He also has proven he's at least equal to mother talzin. Also canon vader nearly pulled a AT AT apart and has many other impressive feats and Sidious is greater than him.

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laflux

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#11  Edited By laflux

@sirfizzwhizz: Cannon Palpatine still has the ROTS Novel, where he was fighting so fast that he was fading in and out of existence to Anakin's eyes IIRC. He should be faster although I agree that Vader would be more powerful by feats. And even in terms of Power, he still choked Dooku across Light Years.

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SolarPowered

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I'm confused. Is Legends a new series, or is it still considered the EU?

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Montaq

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Vader killed him before, he can do it again.

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mechwalker

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Vader

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AlphaQ

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Laflux is making good points here, maybe Palpatine.

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SirFizzWhizz

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@laflux: your behind the times. It's clear even to some hardcore fans that the books are only canon as far what is explicitly shown and stated with the movies. All the stuff you listed for novels is not supported by the movie. Just EU filler

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americanspeeddemon

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@sirfizzwhizz: i think sidious stands a chance his feats are only slightly less than vader but he also is rarely tested

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evilking00007

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#18  Edited By evilking00007

Legands Darth Vader wins here. Disney/movie palpatine is not that impressive compared to his EU version. EU Vader surpassed movie version of palpatine easily.

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ShootingNova

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#19  Edited By ShootingNova

lol Canon Palpatine still wins. Every time.

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WollfMyth209

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#20  Edited By WollfMyth209

Canon Palpatine was one-shotting Darth Maul and choking Dooku from across the galaxy, and stalemating/beating Yoda in a Force bout. He sweeps Force. He should also sweep dueling, considering he was treating Maul and Savage like they were child's play.

Sid, 10/10.

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serpinethegreen

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#22  Edited By WollfMyth209

@serpinethegreen: Not even close. Even in legends, Vader lacks feat to compete with canon Palpy.

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#23  Edited By ShootingNova

The idea that Vader is beating somebody who can comfortably kick the asses of Savage and Maul together is preposterous, to say nothing of the fact that people actually think Vader can stomp. There's not such a drastic shift from Legends to Canon Palpatine, people.

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serpinethegreen

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@WollfMyth209:

Haven't you read the books? The jedi/sith there are leaps and bounds above the ones in canon. They move at blinding speeds. And have the reactions times to complement them. Legends Vader is above legends anakin (based on some text in the ROTJ novel)

So if you take into account his speed is similar to him (who is faster than obi wan) then this excerpt from ROTJ speaks volumes:

"Grievous, snarling fury, ramped up the intensity and velocity of his attacks-- sixteen per second, eighteen -- until finally at twenty strikes per second he overloaded Obi-Wans defenses"

If you can show me Palpatine deflecting 20 hits a second or hitting something 20 times a second. Then and only then will I take him seriously against legends vader. At the moment ROTS obi wan is above canon Palpatine.

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ShootingNova

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#25  Edited By ShootingNova

@serpinethegreen: Remarkable how you quote the books but then neglect Sidious moving faster than Anakin could even see. You can't selectively quote parts of a text so that you only show the parts you want.

And I sincerely hope you're joking or trolling with Obi-Wan being above Sidious. You do realize that Yoda outright said Obi-Wan wasn’t a match for Sidious, and that by showings, Obi-Wan is outclassed in every single category, right?

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CIS

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Canon Palpatine without doubt.

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serpinethegreen

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@ShootingNova:

I'm not "selective quoting". Any quotes in the books about sideous have no bearing on canon sideous (as the books arent canon anymore)

Your next point is plain idiotic. Legends pelpatine & canon Palpatine are entirely different. Yoda saying obiwan can't beat Palpatine is pertaining to the Palpatine of that universe. Ie legends obi couldn't beat legends palp. And canon obi can't best canon palp. In a fight between legends obiwan & canon palp, that quote has no bearing. Allow me to break it down further. MCU Ironman couldn't beat MCU Thor, but 616 Ironman could beat MCU thor. Just because one incarnation of a character is stronger than another, doesn't mean all are.

Fact is canon Palpatines best showings are in the savage/maul fight. And he doesn't measure up against either legends Obi or Darth Vader.

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#28  Edited By WollfMyth209

@serpinethegreen: Lawl. First of all, canon Palpatine speed blitzed 3 Jedi masters, Fisto in particular moved faster, or equally as fast as Grievous. So that alone is enough to draw the conclusion that Sidious>>>Grievous.

Furthermore, Legends Vader has trouble with just Maul. Whereas canon Palpatine was making Maul and Savage look like utter fools.

And lol at Kenobi>Sidious. Sidious stalemated/bested Yoda, the most powerful Jedi of that time. He'll end Obi in the span of a second, canon or Legends.

@shootingnova said:

There's not such a drastic shift from Legends to Canon Palpatine, people.

Depends on what incarnation of Sidious, we take into account. RotS Legends Sidious isn't far above RotS canon Sidious, if at all. RotJ is a different story, nevermind D.E.

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serpinethegreen

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@WollfMyth209:

I'm sorry....are you comparing canon grievous to legends grievous? Canon grievous who did virtually nothing? That grievous?

Unbelievable. It's hilarious you think Palpatine beating the canon versions is indicative of anything when compares to there legends counter parts. The canon version of kit is pathetic compared to him in legends. Seriously read the books. You're embarrassing yourself.

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WollfMyth209

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@serpinethegreen: lol at me embarrassing myself yet you seem to have no idea what you're even talking about. Should I mention that the RotS novel is canon? And thus Palpatine's feat in there(moving faster than Anakin can see, moving at relativistic speeds, appearing to fade in and out of existence, etc.) are all canon? That's worth mentioning. And Kit in canon bested Grievous, who in canon moved as fast or faster than Obi. It's still valid.

And you still have not presented me with feats from Vader that are even remotely close stomping Maul and Savage(the former alone is enough to challenge Vader and beat Obi, legends or canon) or one-shotting Maul, stalemating the most powerful Jedi - Yoda, or choking Dooku from light years away.

Sidious takes this. Now I hope you'll stop embarrassing yourself with these nuts worthy posts.

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serpinethegreen

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@wollfmyth209:

Except it isn't canon. You may want to recheck that bud.

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ShootingNova

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#32  Edited By ShootingNova
@serpinethegreen said:

I'm not "selective quoting". Any quotes in the books about sideous have no bearing on canon sideous (as the books arent canon anymore)

The books are canon where they align with the films. But then again, you could argue that Anakin never saw Sidious fight in the films, so I'll drop the point.

Your next point is plain idiotic. Legends pelpatine & canon Palpatine are entirely different. Yoda saying obiwan can't beat Palpatine is pertaining to the Palpatine of that universe. Ie legends obi couldn't beat legends palp. And canon obi can't best canon palp. In a fight between legends obiwan & canon palp, that quote has no bearing. Allow me to break it down further. MCU Ironman couldn't beat MCU Thor, but 616 Ironman could beat MCU thor. Just because one incarnation of a character is stronger than another, doesn't mean all are.

I thought you were mentioning Canon Obi-Wan for a second, but it doesn't matter as neither version is comparable to Palpatine. Canon Obi-Wan isn't that far from RotS Obi-Wan (he has similar showings), and TCW Maul rivaled both Canon and Legends Obi-Wan - Palpatine stomped both him and Savage at once, and Filoni's comments made it clear that even collectively, they don't compare to Sidious.

Fact is canon Palpatines best showings are in the savage/maul fight. And he doesn't measure up against either legends Obi or Darth Vader.

Explain to me which facet of combat you regard Vader/Obi-Wan to be superior to Palpatine in. Skill? Sidious fought Yoda to a standstill and outclassed Maul and Savage together. In canon, Yoda has outmatched Dooku, while Maul has rivaled Obi-Wan. In Legends, Obi-Wan/Maul/Dooku/Yoda haven't demonstrated superior showings of skill. If you reckon they have, explain those feats.

Then there's this from Nick Gillard/George Lucas:

"Pertaining to whether Sidious is right-handed or left-handed with a lightsaber, he's ambidextrous. He's just that good. Sidious' abilities are beyond anything we've experienced. It took a really long time for Nick (Gillard) to work out Sidious' fighting style, and he has a style that's constantly changing. His style is one in which you'll never get the better of him. It is ambiguous --- he'll fight less than you and draw you in; you're a sucker if you think you're going to better him. Sidious is a master of every weapon and every style."

Power? Sidious overwhelmed Yoda (Ultimate Star Wars, StarWars.Com) with the Force, generated Lightning blasts with force akin to hurricanes as per Yoda's description in the RotS junior novel, casually pinned both Maul (who has pulled down 20m shuttles under negative circumstances and ragdolled Obi-Wan) and Savage (who has shattered Beskar with telekinesis) to a wall, Choked Dooku from across the galaxy, etc. Then there's Dooku perceiving him as a "black hole of the Force", him being canonically "far more powerful than TCW Maul", and his mere holographic presence exuding a greater dark side presence than Dooku did in the flesh. There's no way Legends Vader is more powerful, and Obi-Wan? Don't make me laugh.

Just to knock the last nail into the coffin, Sidious is canonically far more powerful than either Canon Dooku or Maul (who have ragdolled Obi-Wan, pulled down 20m shuttles under negative circumstances, collapsed tunnels with a casual Force Push, lifted a dozen Obelisks etc.) and more powerful than Canon Vader, who has telekinetic feats rivaling Legends Vader (telekinetically lifting and crushing AT-AT's with one hand).

Speed? Sidious was outpacing Maul and Savage and keeping up with Yoda, dodging lightning-fast strikes from the Lylek Queen in Lords of the Sith, etc - and his feats of agility are obviously beyond Vader's. Palpatine takes this category too.

Strength? Vader has pretty monstrous feats of strength, but Sidious has matched Yoda (who has caused Dooku to tire by merely blocking his strikes), sent physical monsters like Savage Opress flying/floored with a kick, overpowered an enraged Darth Maul, etc. Vader doesn't have any meaningful advantage here.

Durability is where Vader exceeds Sidious, but it's not going to make a difference, and Palpatine himself is hardly a slouch in the category (no-selling horn-rams from Savage Opress and a kick from an enraged Maul).

Legends Obi-Wan would lose immediately by virtue of Sidious annihilating him in the Force. Vader is better, but against a faster, more skilled, more agile and more powerful opponent, he loses. It's really that simple.

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WollfMyth209

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ShootingNova

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@wollfmyth209: I'm obviously referring to RotS, and by logical power progression, Canon Palpatine wouldn't be far off RotJ Legends Palpatine either.

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@shootingnova:

and by logical power progression, Canon Palpatine wouldn't be far off RotJ Legends Palpatine either.

Problem is - we don't know if Palpy progressed in power. It's plausible, tho.

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#36  Edited By ShootingNova

@wollfmyth209: It's logical and reasonable, but also irrelevant to the thread at hand.

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#37  Edited By serpinethegreen

@shootingnova:

Again the novels aren't canon anymore. They are far too different to the films in ways of feats. His speed in the books and films don't correlate with each other....at all.

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omnipotence88

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#39  Edited By omnipotence88

Legends Darth Vader kills sidious

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Zapan871

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Sidious still wins at least sabers. As for the Force, he also clouded the mind of something like 10.000 jedi, so he'd be above Vader anyway.

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#41  Edited By SirFizzWhizz

@shootingnova said:

The idea that Vader is beating somebody who can comfortably kick the asses of Savage and Maul together is preposterous, to say nothing of the fact that people actually think Vader can stomp. There's not such a drastic shift from Legends to Canon Palpatine, people.

You must be high. His feats are laughable weaker as Canon. Deal with it Nova, before I get cancer form the words you type :)

Let me know when Canon Palpatine have these feats.

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Nope, he sure does not lol. He gets TK ragdolled. Oh wait what about speed feats!?

Even this Vader quantifiable speed efats is better than the bullet times of Maul and such Sidious beat. Legends by feats are Hypersonic level.

Seriously mate, this aint BS KMC forums lmao. We go by feats here on the Vine.

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Really mate? This been debunk already. The parts that match the movies are "canon" which is like 5% of the novels. All the scenes in the Novels are not the same as the film, and the hyperbole in the novels for battle scenes do not match the Movies at all. This all that is non canon as per your own website post lmao.

Thus the Novels are not canon, at least if your looking for feats, otherwise watch the movies as the Novels add nothing feat wise. Period.

@serpinethegreen said:

@shootingnova:

Again the novels aren't canon anymore. They are far too different to the films in ways of feats. His speed in the books and films don't correlate with each other....at all.

Your right. Only New Dawn, the official first novel of the Canon and stated by Disney is canon along with the few novels after that one.

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This is the "First Official Cannon Novel" set in Disney canon. So that would mean 2005 Return of the Sith is Legends only.

Deal with it you old Star Wars fans. This crap happen years ago, time to get on board.

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WollfMyth209

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Oh, look. Whizz can't accept something and now he's gonna lowball and/or ignore context. Good for him.

Yeah, tell me when Vader ragdolls/one-shots Maul and Savage, chokes Dooku from across the galaxy or overpowers Yoda. And tell me when Vader stomps Maul and Savage in a duel, stalemates the most powerful Jedi within the canon universe, or speedblitzes 3 high caliber Jedi, will ya?

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SirFizzWhizz

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#43  Edited By SirFizzWhizz

@wollfmyth209:

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Oh, look. Whizz can't accept something and now he's gonna lowball and/or ignore context. Good for him.

Really? Who is ignoring what Mate? Facts just slapped you in the face.

  • 1) Even your source from the no name keeper of Jedi Lore states the novels are canon in only areas that dont contradict the movies. Listen mate, it is either canon or not. A fan or casual fan should not have to research and determine what parts are canon and not. That is a$$ backwards and stupid. Unless you want to believe Yoda and Sidious in canon are lightspeed? That Dooku threw a durasteel table with all his force at Anakin in their duel? That maybe Kit Fisto lasted longer in the novel fight than in the movie? The fact is the novels contradict with what is shown, and stated in the films, and terrible use for feats mate.
  • 2) Add to what Disney officially stated that New Dawn is the FIRST OFFICIAL CANON NOVEL makes your whole argument invalid... period.

Yeah, tell me when Vader ragdolls/one-shots Maul and Savage, chokes Dooku from across the galaxy or overpowers Yoda. And tell me when Vader stomps Maul and Savage in a duel, stalemates the most powerful Jedi within the canon universe, or speedblitzes 3 high caliber Jedi, will ya?

  • Choking Dooku across the galaxy is impressive? Vader chokes people all the time across vast distances. the weak Darth Baras from Old Republic choked a powerful Jedi Master across the Galaxy as well. Big deal. As long a character can see a character, they can choke them regardless of distance mate. That is shown time and again. Also Choking Dooku who had his defenses down is impressive? Ventress choked Obi Wan and Anakin who were not prepared for it, guess she is Sidious level now? Means nothing mate. Quantifiable feats mean more in a debate, not plot induce force choking.
  • Overpowered Yoda? When? He could not Overpowered Mace in Canon till Anakin intervene, and Yoda was not overpowered. He was blown away like Sidious. Only Sidious did not fall as per canon and what is shown in movie.
  • One shots Canon Maul and Canon Savage is impressive as fighting Starkiller? Fudge no.

Your reasoning is flawed from a feat standpoint, and easily shot down.

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WollfMyth209

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#44  Edited By WollfMyth209

@sirfizzwhizz: I would counter your horrid misinterpretations and flawed logic, Whizz. But what's even the point? It'll just end with you using a stupid gif and me saying: "I'm tired of this. All we're doing is running around in circles and you can't grasp/accept a concept.". I'm gonna save myself the energy, this time. Nice bait, tho. Cheers, mate.

P.S. read Star Wars Ultimate.

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SirFizzWhizz

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#45  Edited By SirFizzWhizz

Fair enough.

@wollfmyth209 said:

P.S. read Star Wars Ultimate.

What is that?

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#46  Edited By WollfMyth209

@sirfizzwhizz: Ultimate Star Wars was a book/guide published in April. Since it's the newest guide/source, it technically falls into the Disney canon continuity.

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laflux

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@laflux: your behind the times. It's clear even to some hardcore fans that the books are only canon as far what is explicitly shown and stated with the movies. All the stuff you listed for novels is not supported by the movie. Just EU filler

Not from what I've heard. Furthermore its not as if that account completely contradicts the fight that happened in the Movie anyway.

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SirFizzWhizz

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@laflux: at best one can argue Movie Comics as canon as they follow the canon more closely, but they are still not canon. Regardless the fact remains many feats in the novels are not at all supported in the movie.

@wollfmyth209: like a new Encyclopadia only canon? I will look for it at Books a Million.

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WollfMyth209

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like a new Encyclopadia only canon?

Essentially. I believe it's stated there that Sidious moved faster than the Jedi strike team could react and that he overpowered Yoda in the Force. So that's technically still canon.

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#50  Edited By Erkan12

What is the purpose of this thread ? By using the Legends feats of Vader to putting him in a same league with Darth Sidious ? If it is, I would laugh that hard, because there are at least 10 Legends feat says that Vader getting trouble with the fodder Jedi in terms of combat speed.