Lancer and Rider vs Kaidou and Blackbeard

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hyperfinn

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Cu Chulainn and Achilles (Fate)

Take on Kaidou and Blackbeard of the Yonkou.

Bloodlusted.

Location: Punk Hazard.

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AsianAntics

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Are One Piece characters even on the same tier as Fate ones? I remember a thread with Achilles & Karna against the entire verse. Lancer and Rider take it easily. No one can hurt Achilles and Cu has an insta kill that he'll go for instantly, especially if bloodlusted.

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Sy8000

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#3 Sy8000  Online

Er, what? Kaido blitz stomps them both. Achilles' invincibility NLF isn't enough when Teach can incapacitate him with gravity.

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@sy8000 said:

Er, what? Kaido blitz stomps them both. Achilles' invincibility NLF isn't enough when Teach can incapacitate him with gravity.

Again, I'm not clear on OP-verse feats besides threads I've seen. But how does Achilles get incapacitated? He can't be damaged at all. Unless the attack is 'friendly' (ex. Vampire Bite) or divine, he can't be injured. That is an absolute. He's also the fastest servant in the Fate-verse so I don't see him being blitzed easily either. Cu is also said to be in the top 3 fastest servants in the VN for F/SN so him getting blitzed also feels like a stretch.

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Sy8000

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#5 Sy8000  Online

@asianantics: Achilles' invincibility hasn't been proven to be absolute, characters sort of just assume it is. That doesnt really hold up out of universe and these two have better DC than anything in the Nasuverse except the things that happen to be able to hurt Achilles.

None of this matter though. Like I said Teach can just hold him in place with gravity. Invincibility doesnt stop incapacitation.

Them being fast Servants doesnt matter when Kaido dwarfs the entire verse in speed. They lack actual feats to contend with Luffy even.

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AsianAntics

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@sy8000:Okay so if nothing has been proven for his invincibility to be absolute, is there anything proving otherwise?

Any type of attack against him is nullified, including physical damage, the "normal attacks" of Servants, and even great Noble Phantasms like the A+ ranked Balmung. It cannot be pierced by power alone, but it does have three weaknesses.

Fate Apocrypha Vol 2

That sounds pretty clear. Also a point on his speed:

That speed is equated to instantaneous movement, and for everything that enters into his field of vision, the distance between Achilles and his target can be closed instantly.

I still don't know Kaido's speed but I do know Achilles stands out as the fastest among all servants in his verse. That's a huge feat for him and without anything to compare it against, I don't see him being blitzed.

Do either OP characters have a counter to either of Achilles or Cu's instakill NP's? The only way for either of them to survive Gae Bolg is to instantly take out Cu, something they won't know to do. Gae Bolg is unblockable and undodgable. The only person tmk that has survived Gae Bolg has been from a high luck stat as well as a high curse resistance. Do either OP characters have that? And can either survive against Achilles' NP Akhilleus Kosmos which is said to be the equivalent of fighting an entire world? These two servants are beasts of the Nasuverse and bloodlusted, they'd both go for their instakill NP's first. And even if that somehow wouldn't work out, neither OP character's can kill Achilles without knowing about the weakness in his heel. The best thing the OP-verse has going for them is stalemating before either die to a Gae Bolg or Akhilleus Kosmos.

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Sy8000

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#7 Sy8000  Online

@asianantics:

@sy8000:Okay so if nothing has been proven for his invincibility to be absolute, is there anything proving otherwise?

That sounds pretty clear.

This is an NLF. It has no feats to tank hits from Kaido.

At best you can can point to the most powerful thing that we know wouldn't hurt Achilles and scale his durability to that. The most powerful Noble Phantasm that isn't capable of hurting Achilles is Calabolg. Caladbolg is island busting, but the Quake Fruit has superior island busting feats and Kaido scales above that level.

And if we want to go off what Achilles has been directly stated/implied to be immune to, you would be restricted to Balmung, which isn't even city level.

And again, invincibility doesn't do shit to stop immobilization. Achilles gets pinned the hell down.

Also a point on his speed:

I still don't know Kaido's speed but I do know Achilles stands out as the fastest among all servants in his verse. That's a huge feat for him and without anything to compare it against, I don't see him being blitzed.

Achilles' speed is overblown in-universe. Chiron straight up reacted to a blitz attempt in the forest fight. Luffy has feats of moving at re-entry speeds so mach 25 and scales much higher than that. Kaido blitzed him from a sitting position.

Do either OP characters have a counter to either of Achilles or Cu's instakill NP's? The only way for either of them to survive Gae Bolg is to instantly take out Cu, something they won't know to do. Gae Bolg is unblockable and undodgable.

Gae Bolg isn't unblockable. It's outright stated that a powerful enough shield can stop it. So it has no feats to get past their haki. Doflamingo's strings cut through meteors and Luffy's haki could block those.

And can either survive against Achilles' NP Akhilleus Kosmos which is said to be the equivalent of fighting an entire world?

Akhilleus Kosmos is defensive which is what "fighting an entire world" refers to. It has an offensive crushing attack but we have literally no idea how powerful that is. It can't hurt them. Teach can spawn Tremors ambiently so he can make one occur on Achilles behind the shield.

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AsianAntics

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@sy8000:

This is an NLF. It has no feats to tank hits from Kaido.

At best you can can point to the most powerful thing that we know wouldn't hurt Achilles and scale his durability to that. The most powerful Noble Phantasm that isn't capable of hurting Achilles is Calabolg. Caladbolg is island busting, but the Quake Fruit has superior island busting feats and Kaido scales above that level.

And if we want to go off what Achilles has been directly stated/implied to be immune to, you would be restricted to Balmung, which isn't even city level.

If he's stated to be immune to physical attacks, he's immune to physical attacks. You don't need feats when nothing proves the statement wrong. There's nothing clearer then "Any type of attack against him is nullified, including physical damage," and "It cannot be pierced by power alone," If you want to hurt Achilles through his invincibility, you have to be divine. That's it. There's no work arounds. Saying he can be damaged by a powerful attack when the LN itself says he can't be hurt by any physical damage unless it's divine is just factually incorrect.

And again, invincibility doesn't do shit to stop immobilization. Achilles gets pinned the hell down.

Is it in character for Teach to immobilize instantly? And why would he go for Achilles specifically (unless the immobilization is AOE)? Is it possible to power through the immobilization or is it a mental attack? I'd like some context so I can properly counter.

Achilles' speed is overblown in-universe. Chiron straight up reacted to a blitz attempt in the forest fight.

Yes, Chiron reacted to a blitz from Achilles and it's stated why. Chiron is Achilles teacher and knows all of Achilles moves. Chiron also has foresight that lets him see things before they happen. That's why he can snipe Atalanta's A-Rank arrows out of the air while he's miles away from her. In the LN during the last Achilles Vs. Chiron fight, Chiron can't read Achilles when he's riding his chariot at all. He fails spectacularly when trying to snipe Achilles out of the sky and is constantly on the run. He only manages to hit Achilles after he made a prediction after running from Achilles the entire fight.

Gae Bolg isn't unblockable. It's outright stated that a powerful enough shield can stop it.

That is specifically thrown Gae Bolg. Cu's Gae Bolg while he holds the spear is unblockable. Thrown Gae Bolg is just physically stronger.

Akhilleus Kosmos is defensive which is what "fighting an entire world" refers to. It has an offensive crushing attack but we have literally no idea how powerful that is. It can't hurt them.

It's said to go up against it is to go up against the world. It has no offensive feats besides that statement so that statement is what you go by. Just because offensive Akhilleus Kosmos isn't specifically shown doesn't mean it does literally no damage. Where did you get that?

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EcoBlitz

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@sy8000: You’re always around to downplay fate lol.

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EcoBlitz

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Depending on if you take Achellis’s ability as NLF or not; this ends as a stalemate. They can’t damage him, and they should be faster than him even from scailing with Gilgamesh’s lightning speed feat with C rank agility.

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AsianAntics

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@ecoblitz:

You’re always around to downplay fate lol.

Looks like it yeah

Depending on if you take Achellis’s ability as NLF or not; this ends as a stalemate. They can’t damage him, and they should be faster than him even from scailing with Gilgamesh’s lightning speed feat with C rank agility.

What would Gil's lightning speed feat be? Is it in CCC because there he's beyond solar system level and can travel 100's of lightyears in a second. It's widely agreed upon in the Fate community that the minimum speed of a servant is massively hypersonic and Achilles is the fastest of them all. To put that into context, Achilles at 30% speed is noticeably faster than a servant whose praised as being one of the fastest.

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@asianantics: Karna is like top 2 or top 3 most powerful servants ever, and the Fate Apocrypha anime made him way more powerful (and made a bunch of servants more powerful) than ever before.

In reality, the power level of servants wildly differs depending on the servant. Just because Karna can beat someone, doesn't mean Lancer, who is relatively weak, could do the same.

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AsianAntics

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@jashugan:Achilles is also stated to be the closest to Karna's level in Apocrypha with both Jeanne and Shirou warning Karna not to take Achilles lightly. I can't find the direct quote now but it is mentioned a few times in the LN that both Achilles and Karna are unparalleled with Karna and Achilles being 1 & 2 with the gap between 2 & 3 being pretty steep.

Also Achilles' shield took Karna's strongest attack like a champ.

Just because Karna can beat someone, doesn't mean Lancer, who is relatively weak, could do the same.

What's this referring to? I don't recall saying Cu could beat someone Karna couldn't, granted he could just because his kit is so different.

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Sy8000

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#14  Edited By Sy8000  Online

@asianantics:

If he's stated to be immune to physical attacks, he's immune to physical attacks. You don't need feats when nothing proves the statement wrong. There's nothing clearer then "Any type of attack against him is nullified, including physical damage," and "It cannot be pierced by power alone," If you want to hurt Achilles through his invincibility, you have to be divine. That's it. There's no work arounds. Saying he can be damaged by a powerful attack when the LN itself says he can't be hurt by any physical damage unless it's divine is just factually incorrect.

So could he tank a planet busting attack? Star busting?

Is it in character for Teach to immobilize instantly? And why would he go for Achilles specifically (unless the immobilization is AOE)? Is it possible to power through the immobilization or is it a mental attack? I'd like some context so I can properly counter.

Gravity powers were the very first thing he used against Ace so yes. Teach doesn't need to do it instantly either, he's so far above Achilles in stats that he can run through every option till he finds something that works. Considering he tanked hits from Whitebeard who's island busting Achilles isn't likely to hurt him.

Yes, Chiron reacted to a blitz from Achilles and it's stated why. Chiron is Achilles teacher and knows all of Achilles moves. Chiron also has foresight that lets him see things before they happen. That's why he can snipe Atalanta's A-Rank arrows out of the air while he's miles away from her. In the LN during the last Achilles Vs. Chiron fight, Chiron can't read Achilles when he's riding his chariot at all. He fails spectacularly when trying to snipe Achilles out of the sky and is constantly on the run. He only manages to hit Achilles after he made a prediction after running from Achilles the entire fight.

Not what I meant, at one point in the forst fight Chiron straight up dodges Achilles after he starts moving. Knowing Achilles' moves or having foresight wasn't a factor, he literally just got out of the way before Achilles could reach him

With speed equivalent to instant movement and not worrying about any obstacles in his way, Rider raced towards where the arrow was fired from.

There was suddenly a faint noise. It seemed the enemy had moved as well.

Fate/Apocrypha Volume 2

___

That is specifically thrown Gae Bolg. Cu's Gae Bolg while he holds the spear is unblockable. Thrown Gae Bolg is just physically stronger.

It's not, that line was in Heaven's Feel in Saber's Fight with Assassin. It compares fighting Assassin to Lancer and this is in relation to Saber so it's only talking about the heart stab. For that matter it mentions luck in the same passage. So this is not the thrown version.

"In that regard, Lancer's lance is appropriate to be called a Noble Phantasm.

A weapon that always strikes the heart cannot be blocked merely by knowing about it.

If one is to oppose that demonic lance, one must…

Prepare a shield overwhelming the magical energy of the lance,

have great enough luck to change the fate determined by the lance,

or prevent him from using the lance in the first place.

Heaven's Feel Day 8.

It's said to go up against it is to go up against the world. It has no offensive feats besides that statement so that statement is what you go by. Just because offensive Akhilleus Kosmos isn't specifically shown doesn't mean it does literally no damage. Where did you get that?

I didn't say it does no damage, I said we have no idea how powerful it is offensively. The primary function of the shield is defensive. "Going up against a world" is a metaphor, it's not literally a planet.

Bottom line is it's not hurting island level characters.

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EcoBlitz

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@asianantics: It’s not from CCC. It’s from strange fake, he casually slaps away an arrow that was barely hit by his lightning defensor while it was ablready past his defensorz and they are close range. He was also drinking wine and it was casual. And I know fate... also who is this servant you speak of? Because bar Karna and Chiron through experience no one was generally even near Achellis’ level in apocrypha.

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jashugan

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@asianantics:

What's this referring to? I don't recall saying Cu could beat someone Karna couldn't, granted he could just because his kit is so different.

Perhaps you didn't read it properly. karna being able to beat someone doesn't mean cu can.

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AsianAntics

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@ecoblitz: Karna is number 1 and Achilles is number 2. Number three isn't specifically stated but it seems to be either Vlad or Siegfried. The only one who's said to be close to Karna is Achilles and I don't remember it ever stating someone's close to Achilles' level. Chiron also isn't very close to Achilles. It's stated quite a few times that his foresight + being the one to train Achilles is the heavy deciding factor in there fights.

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AsianAntics

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@sy8000:

So could he tank a planet busting attack? Star busting?

Depends if it hits his heel.

Gravity powers were the very first thing he used against Ace so yes. Teach doesn't need to do it instantly either, he's so far above Achilles in stats that he can run through every option till he finds something that works. Considering he tanked hits from Whitebeard who's island busting Achilles isn't likely to hurt him.

Has anyone gotten out of his gravity hold or is it just an instant win for him?

Not what I meant, at one point in the forst fight Chiron straight up dodges Achilles after he starts moving. Knowing Achilles' moves or having foresight wasn't a factor, he literally just got out of the way before Achilles could reach him

Don't forget, Chiron can still see many kilometers away from himself and he knows Achilles' entire set (barring NP's). Chiron is also by no means slow as he dodged a bullrush from Mordred with no mention of strain on his part.

It's not, that line was in Heaven's Feel in Saber's Fight with Assassin. It compares fighting Assassin to Lancer and this is in relation to Saber so it's only talking about the heart stab. For that matter it mentions luck in the same passage. So this is not the thrown version.

And do any of these characters have extreme luck or a shield as powerful as Rho Aias? If not, that NP is going to kill them.

I didn't say it does no damage, I said we have no idea how powerful it is offensively. The primary function of the shield is defensive. "Going up against a world" is a metaphor, it's not literally a planet.

Bottom line is it's not hurting island level characters.

I never said it was planet level, just that it was the same as "Going up against a world" Considering it wipes Anti-Country attacks, I'd say it could definitely hurt island level characters. I'm not saying that all Anti-Country attacks can wipe a country, I am however saying that some of them definitely can.

  • Anti-Country Noble Phantasm (対国宝具, Tai-Koku Hōgu?) - The classification of Noble Phantasms that has enough range to potentially cover an entire country.
TYPE-MOON Wikia (https://typemoon.fandom.com/wiki/Noble_Phantasm#References)
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AsianAntics

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@jashugan: Ah, got it. Yes, I definitely agree that Karna can beat someone Cu can't, prime example Heracles.

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jobbers

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@asianantics:

It's shown in Grand Order that a servant summoned with the proper vessel and power source can actually use their abilities in a "NLF" manner.

A demi-servant managed to block a universe killer with Lord Camelot.

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EcoBlitz

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@asianantics: that’s literally what I said, Chiron due to training Achellis

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EcoBlitz

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@jobbers: I haven’t finished playing F/GO but when does mash block a universe buster/killer?

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Cypher0120

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She doesn't. Mash blocked Ars Almadel Salomonis. It's there to incinerate the timeline of Human History, but I wouldn't call it Universe killer.

A better example would have been Shiva incinerating Kama/Beast III-L who became the Universe. But that's not a power Servants can normally reach by themselves.

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EcoBlitz

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@Cypher0120: timeline is pretty big tho, and it shows she can block time fuckery

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TourneyMaster

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Oh wow, Fate Servants are now casual planet busters and universe wipers. I remember when comicvine was not plague with hyperbole NLF stupidity.

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OT: OP team stomps. better damage, better speed, and they have the hax to incapacitate at the least.