@Gambler: That's all I wanted to see, feats that put Shiva above Bronze Tiger. Before this post, I had 3 fights as BT's feats, His first fight where he beats Batman, his second fight when he stalemates him, and the fight where he is able to beat Deathstroke. For Shiva all I had was her being able to stalemate Batman and her beating Connor. To me, BT's were more impressive and therefore I gave him a slight advantage. You just posted a fight where she owns a techno enhanced ninja which is better than any feats I'd seen for her previously. Now I no longer claim that BT would win, but I'm still interested in seeing more fights with either of them.
Thanks, for the argument, though it was unfortunate that we seemed to misunderstand each others arguments so often.
" @Gambler: That's all I wanted to see, feats that put Shiva above Bronze Tiger. Before this post, I had 3 fights as BT's feats, His first fight where he beats Batman, his second fight when he stalemates him, and the fight where he is able to beat Deathstroke. For Shiva all I had was her being able to stalemate Batman and her beating Connor. To me, BT's were more impressive and therefore I gave him a slight advantage. You just posted a fight where she owns a techno enhanced ninja which is better than any feats I'd seen for her previously. Now I no longer claim that BT would win, but I'm still interested in seeing more fights with either of them. Thanks, for the argument, though it was unfortunate that we seemed to misunderstand each others arguments so often. "
" @Gambler: That's all I wanted to see, feats that put Shiva above Bronze Tiger. Before this post, I had 3 fights as BT's feats, His first fight where he beats Batman, his second fight when he stalemates him, and the fight where he is able to beat Deathstroke. For Shiva all I had was her being able to stalemate Batman and her beating Connor. To me, BT's were more impressive and therefore I gave him a slight advantage. You just posted a fight where she owns a techno enhanced ninja which is better than any feats I'd seen for her previously. Now I no longer claim that BT would win, but I'm still interested in seeing more fights with either of them. Thanks, for the argument, though it was unfortunate that we seemed to misunderstand each others arguments so often. "
Yeah, it was fun. "
I'm gonna save those Shiva scans now. I thought you might want to see this site for Batman MA feats. http://agent0x7.tripod.com/dkskill1.html
Makes Judith look easy. Judith has beat Batman before
This is after he one shots bats.
Breaks Ravan's back with ease.
He does ahve feats(If these haven't been retcanned.) So I don't see how he doesn't bring anything to the table. Shiva has some of the most inconsistent feats out there, so It's hard to judge where she is at.
" The ninja isn't twice as fast as Superman. He's just faster than Superman thought. And all the BT feats there haven't been retconned because they're from Detective Comics and Suicide Squad. "
I don't think he was saying that he was twice as fast as superman. This still puts more than twice as fast as superman expected a ninja to be
@Strafe Prower: Is this Judith's page? http://www.comicvine.com/judith/29-15840/
" The ninja isn't twice as fast as Superman. He's just faster than Superman thought. And all the BT feats there haven't been retconned because they're from Detective Comics and Suicide Squad. "
If you read Superman's word bubble he doesn't say Shadowdragon is just faster then he thought, he says, "He doubled my speed for the second time." Also all Pre-Crisis Bronze Tiger feats seem to have been recanted.
@Strafe Prower: Shiva has some of the most inconsistent feats out there? Huh? Why, cause you say so lmao. Now who's using ABC logic? Everything argument you've made for Bronze Tiger is a result of something involving Batman. How bout you show us something in terms of abilities :) Can Bronze Tiger read body language? Cause Shiva can. Who's the fastest character Bronze Tiger has ever fought/avoided? Is Bronze Tiger a Bullet Dodger? Scans of Pre-Crisis BT beating up characters nobody outside of super Batman fans have ever heard of proves nothing. You keep using Batman as your anchor, even though I've posted two scans in which Batman states Shiva may be the greatest fighter in the World, and another in which he states she's a master of ALL forms of combat. Look at just the scans you posted. One stating he moved with inhuman speed, that's nice but its nothing Shiva isn't doing. One shotting Batman is a nice feat, but all it means is that he's stronger then Shiva, cause she's tagged Bats before to. She's just not strong enough to down him with one blow. How many forms of combat is Bronze Tiger a master of? Can he predict what his opponent is going to do before they do it? Cause thats what reading body language is, and its what Shiva can do.
Pre- Crisis Bronze Tiger beating Batman < Lady Shiva defeating Nightwing and Conner Hawke at the same time.
"@Strafe Prower: Shiva has some of the most inconsistent feats out there? Huh? Why, cause you say so lmao. Now who's using ABC logic? Everything argument you've made for Bronze Tiger is a result of something involving Batman. How bout you show us something in terms of abilities :) Can Bronze Tiger read body language? Cause Shiva can. Who's the fastest character Bronze Tiger has ever fought/avoided? Is Bronze Tiger a Bullet Dodger? Scans of Pre-Crisis BT beating up characters nobody outside of super Batman fans have ever heard of proves nothing. You keep using Batman as your anchor, even though I've posted two scans in which Batman states Shiva may be the greatest fighter in the World, and another in which he states she's a master of ALL forms of combat. Look at just the scans you posted. One stating he moved with inhuman speed, that's nice but its nothing Shiva isn't doing. One shotting Batman is a nice feat, but all it means is that he's stronger then Shiva, cause she's tagged Bats before to. She's just not strong enough to down him with one blow. How many forms of combat is Bronze Tiger a master of? Can he predict what his opponent is going to do before they do it? Cause thats what reading body language is, and its what Shiva can do. Pre- Crisis Bronze Tiger beating Batman < Lady Shiva defeating Nightwing and Conner Hawke at the same time. "
I never said just because He beat batman and she didn't, that He wins. I never typed those words. The fact that I'm not that great of knowledge on Bronze Tiger is why I don't have those scans of people saying things about him. I have yet to read alot of his appearences in all honesty. Also, just becasue you have the ability to read movements, doesn't mean that you will win, seeing as both Cassie and Shiva has been beat by people without that ability. Bats saying she is the best and turning and beating her sounds kinda fishy to me. She has lost and beat alot of the same people. Not to mention as Zoom has said that some of the stuff you have shown has been a "Joke" I don't use ABC logic BTW.
"I never said just because He beat batman and she didn't, that He wins. I never typed those words. The fact that I'm not that great of knowledge on Bronze Tiger is why I don't have those scans of people saying things about him. I have yet to read alot of his appearences in all honesty. Also, just becasue you have the ability to read movements, doesn't mean that you will win, seeing as both Cassie and Shiva has been beat by people without that ability. Bats saying she is the best and turning and beating her sounds kinda fishy to me. She has lost and beat alot of the same people. Not to mention as Zoom has said that some of the stuff you have shown has been a "Joke" I don't use ABC logic BTW. "
No, you just keep using Batman as your focal point. And I never said just cause Shiva can predict her opponents moves she wins. You're taking that one thing out of context. But really, you're falling back on who lost or who beat who. If you take Bronze Tiger and his abilities, and take Shiva and her abilities, who has the more documented fact based abilities? Shiva. The fact that you dont know much about Bronze Tiger but still try to make a case for him in spite of what has been posted in print about Shiva makes it seem like you just don't want to admit you've lost. Can you tell me when has Batman defeated Shiva without help? Superman/Batman? You do know she was mind controlled right? You do know that entire series is full of nonsense right? Like Batman taking out Grundy and Major Force lol. And just cause Zoom proclaims the Batgirl series a joke doesn't make it fact. He didnt even know BT and Richard Dragon had been recanted. Shiva's origin in the Batgirl series is her established origin. Everything that took place in that series is canon. Losing and beating to the same people only means they're well matched.
Lets try this. The fight starts and Shiva and Bronze Tiger size eachother up. What does Bronze Tiger do to defeat Shiva? What advantages does he have?
"If you read Superman's word bubble he doesn't say Shadowdragon is just faster then he thought, he says, "He doubled my speed for the second time." Also all Pre-Crisis Bronze Tiger feats seem to have been recanted. "
No. He says "I doubled my speed the second time." Superman punched but he dodged. Superman doubled his speed for the second punch and he still dodged. That's Superman just thinking the guy was slower than he really was. That's not the ninja moving twice as fast as Superman can.
And post crisis feats like his Suicide Squad appearances have not been retconned.
"Batman cant even lay a hand on Cass, thats fact, look it up :)"
This isn't what you said in the Zealot vs. Batgirl thread. You said the exact opposite, and used it against Cassie, stating that she could be tagged. "
"If you read Superman's word bubble he doesn't say Shadowdragon is just faster then he thought, he says, "He doubled my speed for the second time." Also all Pre-Crisis Bronze Tiger feats seem to have been recanted. "
No. He says "I doubled my speed the second time." Superman punched but he dodged. Superman doubled his speed for the second punch and he still dodged. That's Superman just thinking the guy was slower than he really was. That's not the ninja moving twice as fast as Superman can. And post crisis feats like his Suicide Squad appearances have not been retconned. "
I see. Still, dodging Superman twice, even when he thought he had adjusted for the Ninja's speed is still a good feat. There are more scans from the fight if you'd like to see them. The Ninja lands shots on Superman which also helps the reader see how fast he is.
They almost have to be. His entire history was re-written in the Richard Dragon series. Most pre-crisis feats have been retconned. But if you provide evidence saying other wise I'd be happy to retract my position.
@Static Shock said:
" @Gambler said:
"Batman cant even lay a hand on Cass, thats fact, look it up :)"
This isn't what you said in the Zealot vs. Batgirl thread. You said the exact opposite, and used it against Cassie, stating that she could be tagged. "
In the battle threads using Cass' abilities Batman shouldn't be able to land a shot on her. The only time he has was when she was depowred, and another time when they were both under the influence of some villain's gas. But why would I make your argument for you? In the Zealot thread there was a different context to the conversation. I had stated that Batman HAD tagged her. And that other characters had as well. Which is true. Doesnt mean they should be able to. I left it up to you to prove me wrong or debate what I had said. You didnt ;)
I had stated that Batman HAD tagged her. And that other characters had as well. Which is true. Doesnt mean they should be able to. I left it up to you to prove me wrong or debate what I had said. You didnt ;) "
I know what you said. I specifically said that it was inconsistent for Batman and other characters you mentioned to tag her due to her abilities, and I was never dis-proving that he did hit her. I didn't debate what you said any further, because I'd be repeating myself, and I already said what I had to say. Hence, the fact that Batman was able to do so was already proven wrong from the start (and there were other instances of him being unable to tag her, anyway). Be aware that I never denied the fact that he was able to hit her, but my argument was that he wasn't supposed to, at all.
@Static Shock: Sorry I read what you said, I wasn't trying to prove you wrong, just posting the scan in response to what was being discussed, probably shoulda clarified.
I had stated that Batman HAD tagged her. And that other characters had as well. Which is true. Doesnt mean they should be able to. I left it up to you to prove me wrong or debate what I had said. You didnt ;) "
I know what you said. I specifically said that it was inconsistent for Batman and other characters you mentioned to tag her due to her abilities, and I was never dis-proving that he did hit her. I didn't debate what you said any further, because I'd be repeating myself, and I already said what I had to say. Hence, the fact that Batman was able to do so was already proven wrong from the start (and there were other instances of him being unable to tag her, anyway). Be aware that I never denied the fact that he was able to hit her, but my argument was that he wasn't supposed to, at all.
"
This is how it ended. You didn't say anything about it being inconsistent.
@Static Shock said:
" @Gambler said:
"Dog was trained by the same people who trained Cass. He's her brother but he doesn't predict movements. Robin has tagged Cass more then once and without grabbing her cape. Supergirl was "De-Powered" at the time so her Kryptonian makeup and abilities is a moot point. Cain has danced around Deathstroke but she even states herself that he's toying with her. Shadow Thieve is another character who has tagged Cain. Lots of characters who are without the ability to predict movements have landed shots on Cain. Its not a rare occurrence. Zealot's durability comes on the form of a healing factor, who has Cain ever knocked out with a healing factor? Off the top of my head she's only knocked out one Meta-Human and he had no healing factor and no skills to avoid or roll with her punches. Zealot lifts ten tons easy. Shiva lifts nowhere near that much and hurts Cain with her strikes. And even if that's do to skill, Zealot is far more skilled then even Shiva.
As for fighting characters with body reading abilities:
@Buckshot
said:
" There was really a question of whether Z has met a move reader? She hasn't just fought Nemesis in those few instances, she trained her. Maj introduced them over 3000 years ago and Zealot made her the fighter sheis today. She's experienced move reading of multiple typesbefore. And it's explicitly stated that well trained coda warriors are move-readers to some degree(and Zealot is one of the best Coda warriors around). "
@Gambler: Yes, I did, before you quoted Buckshot. Repeating it even after letting you said what you wanted wasn't going to happen.
@Static Shock said:
"@Gambler said:
"Actually in that scan its not about what Nemesis is doing, its what Zealot is doing. Predicting her movements and anticipating her before she attacks. If Zealot can anticipate Nemesis then why couldn't she do the same against Cain? Also, Batman, Nightwing, Robin, her stepbrother Dog, Bronze Tiger, etc etc have all landed shots on her. Even Supergirl without her abilities was able to land shots on Cain. Her body reading ability is dangerous but she's along ways away from having perfected it. Zealot is light years ahead of Cassandra in skill. Anticipating someone's moves would be second nature to her by now. Not to mention her durability and strength. One shot is all she needs to finish Cain. How is CC even going to hurt Zealot? "
Even if it may seem that way, it looks as if Nemesis isn't predicting hers like she should be. Batman landing shots on her (as well as Nightwing, Dog, and Bronze Tiger) are inconsistent, IMO. I might give Bronze Tiger leeway, because he trained her. Cain danced around Deathstroke because of her ability, and he's faster than all of them. Robin only got the jump on her by grabbing her cape and slamming her into the ground. The cape isn't an extension of her body, so I don't think that counts. Supergirl is a Kryptonian, and she moves several times faster than humans. It would only make sense that she could tag Cain. As far as Zealot's durability, I don't think that's a problem. Cain hits hard enough to knockout people with superhuman durability (equates to breaking normal human skulls) and kicks through bricks and inches of quartz. "
"If you read Superman's word bubble he doesn't say Shadowdragon is just faster then he thought, he says, "He doubled my speed for the second time." Also all Pre-Crisis Bronze Tiger feats seem to have been recanted. "
No. He says "I doubled my speed the second time." Superman punched but he dodged. Superman doubled his speed for the second punch and he still dodged. That's Superman just thinking the guy was slower than he really was. That's not the ninja moving twice as fast as Superman can. And post crisis feats like his Suicide Squad appearances have not been retconned. "
I see. Still, dodging Superman twice, even when he thought he had adjusted for the Ninja's speed is still a good feat. There are more scans from the fight if you'd like to see them. The Ninja lands shots on Superman which also helps the reader see how fast he is.
They almost have to be. His entire history was re-written in the Richard Dragon series. Most pre-crisis feats have been retconned. But if you provide evidence saying other wise I'd be happy to retract my position. "
Disagree. All he did was make Superman think he wasn't that fast and then move even faster. Why Superman didn't just take the mook to jail is beyond me. You and I both know that characters that lose to Shiva don't pose a threat to Superman.
Suicide Squad has to be cannon. Raise the Flag took a couple of specific scenes from Suicide Squad and showed them in flashback. Raise the Flag was written in 2007, after the newer Richard Dragon series.
Besides Dragon training the people who originally trained him what exactly got retconned?
" @Gambler: Yes, I did, before you quoted Buckshot. Repeating it even after letting you said what you wanted wasn't going to happen.
@Static Shock said:
"@Gambler said:
"Actually in that scan its not about what Nemesis is doing, its what Zealot is doing. Predicting her movements and anticipating her before she attacks. If Zealot can anticipate Nemesis then why couldn't she do the same against Cain? Also, Batman, Nightwing, Robin, her stepbrother Dog, Bronze Tiger, etc etc have all landed shots on her. Even Supergirl without her abilities was able to land shots on Cain. Her body reading ability is dangerous but she's along ways away from having perfected it. Zealot is light years ahead of Cassandra in skill. Anticipating someone's moves would be second nature to her by now. Not to mention her durability and strength. One shot is all she needs to finish Cain. How is CC even going to hurt Zealot? "
Even if it may seem that way, it looks as if Nemesis isn't predicting hers like she should be. Batman landing shots on her (as well as Nightwing, Dog, and Bronze Tiger) are inconsistent, IMO. I might give Bronze Tiger leeway, because he trained her. Cain danced around Deathstroke because of her ability, and he's faster than all of them. Robin only got the jump on her by grabbing her cape and slamming her into the ground. The cape isn't an extension of her body, so I don't think that counts. Supergirl is a Kryptonian, and she moves several times faster than humans. It would only make sense that she could tag Cain. As far as Zealot's durability, I don't think that's a problem. Cain hits hard enough to knockout people with superhuman durability (equates to breaking normal human skulls) and kicks through bricks and inches of quartz. "
"
I actually gave you reasons as to why Bronze Tiger, Nightwing, Dog, and Batman landing shots on Cain wasn't inconsistent. Thats what you didnt respond to. You just said, "Hmm" you wouldnt of had to repeat yourself. You would of had to address the reason I gave for those feats being consistent.
"If you read Superman's word bubble he doesn't say Shadowdragon is just faster then he thought, he says, "He doubled my speed for the second time." Also all Pre-Crisis Bronze Tiger feats seem to have been recanted. "
No. He says "I doubled my speed the second time." Superman punched but he dodged. Superman doubled his speed for the second punch and he still dodged. That's Superman just thinking the guy was slower than he really was. That's not the ninja moving twice as fast as Superman can. And post crisis feats like his Suicide Squad appearances have not been retconned. "
I see. Still, dodging Superman twice, even when he thought he had adjusted for the Ninja's speed is still a good feat. There are more scans from the fight if you'd like to see them. The Ninja lands shots on Superman which also helps the reader see how fast he is.
They almost have to be. His entire history was re-written in the Richard Dragon series. Most pre-crisis feats have been retconned. But if you provide evidence saying other wise I'd be happy to retract my position. "
Disagree. All he did was make Superman think he wasn't that fast and then move even faster. Why Superman didn't just take the mook to jail is beyond me. You and I both know that characters that lose to Shiva don't pose a threat to Superman. Suicide Squad has to be cannon. Raise the Flag took a couple of specific scenes from Suicide Squad and showed them in flashback. Raise the Flag was written in 2007, after the newer Richard Dragon series. Besides Dragon training the people who originally trained him what exactly got retconned? "
He did it twice. If Superman threw a punch and then missed, so he doubled up his speed and still missed, obvious the Ninja is fast. He even tags Superman more then once. So even if we believe that for whatever reason Superman throwing a punch at two times the speed of his original is not fast, Shadowdragon still shows off he's fast enough to land shots on Superman without the aid of Kryptonite.
Ben Turner's age (he appears to be an old man now) And instead of O'Sensi training Richard Dragon Ben Turner did. They've also retconned the whole League forcing him to wear the mask. He also appears to have been severally downgraded in terms of skills.
No, you didn't. All you did was state that those people were able to tag her, nothing about why they weren't inconsistent. If you did give reasons, they weren't very good ones.
No, you didn't. All you did was state that those people were able to tag her, nothing about why they weren't inconsistent. If you did give reasons, they weren't very good ones. "
Then they should have been easy to pick apart ;)
@Gambler said:
" Dog was trained by the same people who trained Cass. He's her brother but he doesn't predict movements. Robin has tagged Cass more then once and without grabbing her cape. Supergirl was "De-Powered" at the time so her Kryptonian makeup and abilities is a moot point. Cain has danced around Deathstroke but she even states herself that he's toying with her. Shadow Thieve is another character who has tagged Cain. Lots of characters who are without the ability to predict movements have landed shots on Cain. "
" Dog was trained by the same people who trained Cass. He's her brother but he doesn't predict movements. Robin has tagged Cass more then once and without grabbing her cape. Supergirl was "De-Powered" at the time so her Kryptonian makeup and abilities is a moot point. Cain has danced around Deathstroke but she even states herself that he's toying with her. Shadow Thieve is another character who has tagged Cain. Lots of characters who are without the ability to predict movements have landed shots on Cain. "
"
Yet, I still don't see any reasons as to why they were able to tag her. All I see there is people being able to tag them without the ability to read/predict movements, and no reason as to how they were able to do so.
" Dog was trained by the same people who trained Cass. He's her brother but he doesn't predict movements. Robin has tagged Cass more then once and without grabbing her cape. Supergirl was "De-Powered" at the time so her Kryptonian makeup and abilities is a moot point. Cain has danced around Deathstroke but she even states herself that he's toying with her. Shadow Thieve is another character who has tagged Cain. Lots of characters who are without the ability to predict movements have landed shots on Cain. "
"
Yet, I still don't see any reasons as to why they were able to tag her. All I see there is people being able to tag them without the ability to read/predict movements, and no reason as to how they were able to do so. "
Being able to see what people do a head of time doesn't necessarily make you unhitable. Just like knowing your opponents next move in chess doesn't make you unbeatable. It gives you a huge advantage, but bery skilled fighters will be able to plan their attacks 3-4 moves ahead and get you in a position where even though you know its coming you can't avoid it. Things like being fast enough or skilled enough to avoid the hits is also a factor. Deathstroke and Batman hitting Cain is actually makes sense, don't forget batman knows something about body language too and can read them just to a much less degree than Batgirl or Shiva. It's feasible to other highly skilled martial artist to be able to hit her in a fight, but I do think that she gets hit more often then she should. I think the same goes for Ravager.
"Being able to see what people do a head of time doesn't necessarily make you unhitable. Just like knowing your opponents next move in chess doesn't make you unbeatable. It gives you a huge advantage, but bery skilled fighters will be able to plan their attacks 3-4 moves ahead and get you in a position where even though you know its coming you can't avoid it. Things like being fast enough or skilled enough to avoid the hits is also a factor. Deathstroke and Batman hitting Cain is actually makes sense, don't forget batman knows something about body language too and can read them just to a much less degree than Batgirl or Shiva. It's feasible to other highly skilled martial artist to be able to hit her in a fight, but I do think that she gets hit more often then she should. I think the same goes for Ravager. "
"Ben Turner's age (he appears to be an old man now) And instead of O'Sensi training Richard Dragon Ben Turner did. They've also retconned the whole League forcing him to wear the mask. He also appears to have been severally downgraded in terms of skills. "
And Raise the Flag retconned his age and the tiger mask thing right back where it was before.
To me, it looks like the new Richard Dragon series tried to retcon it and the only other guy who is writing Bronze Tiger said "Nuh uh."
Since Suicide Squad is restarting again with Ostrander (the guy who wrote Raise the Flag), I'd imagine that what John Ostrander says is gonna outweigh what Chuck Dixon says.
As for the ninja, Superman doesn't go all out against humans. If he punched as fast as he could, he'd splatter the poor guy. He was just thought he needed a certain amount of force to take him down, was wrong, used a little more force, was wrong again and then I'm sure Supes eventually beat the guy. Being better than Superman going way the hell easy on you isn't a feat because we have no idea how easy Superman was going on him. Since Shiva beat the guy, I'm sure Supes was going pretty dang easy.
" Yet, I still don't see any reasons as to why they were able to tag her. All I see there is people being able to tag them without the ability to read/predict movements, and no reason as to how they were able to do so. "
Short answer, skill. In both Marvel and DC reading body language is a nice trick to have in the bag but there are ways around it. Speed being one of them, skill and technique being the other. In Civil War Captain America lands some solid shots on Spiderman (who's spidersense can be looked at in much the same way as reading body language, in the sense that he knows when and where someone is going to attack.) But Cap shows that since he's a master tacticain that he's actually able to dictate where Spiderman moves and thus lines him up to be hit. Batman knows everything about Cassandra Cain and what she can do. He has protocols on every hero in the Justice League and how to beat them. You don't think its reasonable to think he's deduced a way to land shots on Cain? Bronze Tiger is a top tier martial artist, his skill set makes it believable for him to land shots on a body reader. Dog, as I pointed out, is somewhat Cain's brother. He was the first semi-successful child to be manufactured by David Cain. But he's crazy, he has no style and he doesn't even know what he's going to do before he does it. Its the same reason why Taskmaster cant predict Deadpool's moves like he does other characters. Crazy people cant be anticipated. Shadow Thief is actually an accomplished Ninja. He cant read body language but looking at his other abilities it makes sense for him to be able to land shots on Cain. Nightwing, and Robin are iffy. But going by the fact that Robin was trained by Batman and Lady Shiva respectively (having landed shots on both) its perfectly reasonable to see why he's landed shots on Cain. Nightwing is pretty skilled, and his showings against Deathstroke, a character with meta-human abilities, alone makes it believable for him to hit Cain.
Really though, this was about your stance in the Zealot vs Cassandra thread. You seemed to believe (before it was made known) that simply because Zealot wasn't a body reader or had faced one before, that she wouldn't be able to land shots on Batgirl. Despite having over thousands of years of combat training.
"Ben Turner's age (he appears to be an old man now) And instead of O'Sensi training Richard Dragon Ben Turner did. They've also retconned the whole League forcing him to wear the mask. He also appears to have been severally downgraded in terms of skills. "
And Raise the Flag retconned his age and the tiger mask thing right back where it was before.
To me, it looks like the new Richard Dragon series tried to retcon it and the only other guy who is writing Bronze Tiger said "Nuh uh." Since Suicide Squad is restarting again with Ostrander (the guy who wrote Raise the Flag), I'd imagine that what John Ostrander says is gonna outweigh what Chuck Dixon says. As for the ninja, Superman doesn't go all out against humans. If he punched as fast as he could, he'd splatter the poor guy. He was just thought he needed a certain amount of force to take him down, was wrong, used a little more force, was wrong again and then I'm sure Supes eventually beat the guy. Being better than Superman going way the hell easy on you isn't a feat because we have no idea how easy Superman was going on him. Since Shiva beat the guy, I'm sure Supes was going pretty dang easy. "
His age (at least appeared) to have been set back in Justice League as well (even if he did get his ass kicked by Vixen :S). I'm not disagreeing with you about what has and hasn't been recconted. I would say any feat of his that takes place inside of Suicide Squad is legit. The Richard Dragon series reset its history and thus reset BT's by proxy. Which seemed to be followed by the Batgirl series. In the JLA series when BT arrived he had no interaction with Batman (which is strange given their pre-crisis history).
As for the Shadowdragon, even if Superman wasn't going all out that doesn't explain how and why Shadowdragon was able to land shots on him. I can agree that if Superman wanted to he could have really hurt the guy but held back. But that doesn't explain getting tagged (and hurt by the dudes Sword). I'll try posting the entire scene and see what you think then.
" Well JLA has just suffered from general poor writing. X-D And yeah, post the entire scene. That'd help me get a better feel for how powerful the guy is supposed to be. "
Read what Superman says.
Superman: "I'm not use to fighting someone who is faster then me"
Because it doesn't make any sense whatsoever for somebody faster than Superman to get beaten by Shiva. She doesn't have any superspeed whatsoever, much less the ability to beat a lightspeeder without just an incredibly lucky shot.
Short answer, skill. In both Marvel and DC reading body language is a nice trick to have in the bag but there are ways around it. Speed being one of them, skill and technique being the other. In Civil War Captain America lands some solid shots on Spiderman (who's spidersense can be looked at in much the same way as reading body language, in the sense that he knows when and where someone is going to attack.) But Cap shows that since he's a master tacticain that he's actually able to dictate where Spiderman moves and thus lines him up to be hit. Batman knows everything about Cassandra Cain and what she can do. He has protocols on every hero in the Justice League and how to beat them. You don't think its reasonable to think he's deduced a way to land shots on Cain? Bronze Tiger is a top tier martial artist, his skill set makes it believable for him to land shots on a body reader. Dog, as I pointed out, is somewhat Cain's brother. He was the first semi-successful child to be manufactured by David Cain. But he's crazy, he has no style and he doesn't even know what he's going to do before he does it. Its the same reason why Taskmaster cant predict Deadpool's moves like he does other characters. Crazy people cant be anticipated. Shadow Thief is actually an accomplished Ninja. He cant read body language but looking at his other abilities it makes sense for him to be able to land shots on Cain. Nightwing, and Robin are iffy. But going by the fact that Robin was trained by Batman and Lady Shiva respectively (having landed shots on both) its perfectly reasonable to see why he's landed shots on Cain. Nightwing is pretty skilled, and his showings against Deathstroke, a character with meta-human abilities, alone makes it believable for him to hit Cain. Really though, this was about your stance in the Zealot vs Cassandra thread. You seemed to believe (before it was made known) that simply because Zealot wasn't a body reader or had faced one before, that she wouldn't be able to land shots on Batgirl. Despite having over thousands of years of combat training. "
I was waiting for you to say this. LOL. In regards to Zealot, I'm not an expert on her, but based on what I've seen, I didn't think she could land shots on an opponent that could read movements. Even with thousands of years of combat training, it wasn't safe for me to assume that she could. People like Thor and Hercules have thousands of years of combat training, and yet, there's no evidence of them tagging move readers.
" @Zoom: LOL exactly. Either Superman got jobbed in the first one, or Shadowdragon got jobbed in the second. "
I think its most likely the first, no way Shadowdragon has tech that makes him faster than speed of light. "
Yeah. Although I will say this, I've yet to actually see Superman on Earth, in a fight, going lightspeed. In fact he says he doesn't go lightspeed on Earth cause of the destruction it would cause.
" I've seen him go pretty close, while chasing the Flash. "
Same here. But thats running. I'm talking about in a fight. Throwing punches or kicks at light speed. Dodging attacks at light speed, etc etc. I've seen him flying at light speeds and as you pointed out against the Flash (I assume running or flying). But I've never seen him in Earth's atmosphere throwing hand to hand moves together at light speed.
" I've seen him go pretty close, while chasing the Flash. "
Same here. But thats running. I'm talking about in a fight. Throwing punches or kicks at light speed. Dodging attacks at light speed, etc etc. I've seen him flying at light speeds and as you pointed out against the Flash (I assume running or flying). But I've never seen him in Earth's atmosphere throwing hand to hand moves together at light speed. "
I think I've seen one, but I don't think they're very common (I don't mean lightspeed, but some amount of superspeed)
" I've seen him go pretty close, while chasing the Flash. "
Same here. But thats running. I'm talking about in a fight. Throwing punches or kicks at light speed. Dodging attacks at light speed, etc etc. I've seen him flying at light speeds and as you pointed out against the Flash (I assume running or flying). But I've never seen him in Earth's atmosphere throwing hand to hand moves together at light speed. "
Right. And tailing or running alongside the Flash may give him some speedforce protection and keep everything from being torn apart in his wake.
@GamorasBigDaddy: Thats how i feel, but it still happens, Batgirl, Nightwing, Bronze Tiger, Cheshire, someone said Batman(No i think that was when he was depowered)?
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