Kyp Durron vs Darth Plagueis

Kyp Durron. The most talented of all of Luke's students at the Jedi Praxeum, someone that even rivaled Luke in power during the early Vong War.

Darth Plagueis, the most powerful Sith Lord in history, until he was murdered in his sleep by his apprentice, Darth Sidious.

Can the prodigy of the NJO take out the Dark Side manifest? Or will Plagueis mastery of the Force overwhelm the talented Durron?

Round 1: Sabers and Force augmentation only
Round 2: Force powers only
Round 3: All out

Bonus round: Plagueis has TPM Sidious, Kyp Durron has DE Luke Skywalker.

Prime Kyp. Prime Plagueis. Who will win???

@thesithmaster@richard96@kbroskywalker@amethystgravity@azronger@lordofthelight@emperor339@emperordmb

Kyp wins the force round.

Plagueis wrecks him in sabers and wins all out pretty easily.

Plagueis wins all rounds, with the Force round being a good fight.

Dis guy.

Plageuis, and it's not close.

Plagueis handily though Kyp is pretty beastly as well with his augmentation.

Here is what I don't understand. Most folks deem early Vong War Luke to be even stronger than DE Sidious. The early novels of the NJO make it clear that Kyp Durron rivals Luke in power. This battle has been made to assess exactly where people rank Durron. I personally don't buy into that version of Luke being that powerful, I rank him around Plagueis level, maybe closer to ROTS Sidious level.

@bigsambino87

Luke as of the Late Vong War is more powerful than DE Sidious yes, because he is the most powerful he has ever been, and that includes the time where his potential was temporarily unlocked by Leia making him more powerful than Sidious in DE.

Kyp is loosely comparable to early/mid Vong War Luke, but he isn't his equal or rival. Late Vong War Luke should be significantly ahead.

Of course, even this much gives Kyp the win over Plagueis. But only in a force based contest. He is thoroughly outclassed in sabers.

I hold that FOTJ Luke is more powerful than Late Vong War Luke. He did have a moment of Oneness with the Force, but then again so did Jacen, Anakin, and Ganner.

@bigsambino87

Luke never had Oneness.

If you mean against Abeloth, that was Force Light, not Oneness.

And yes, FOTJ Luke>Vong War Luke for sure, but Vong War Luke was more powerful than he had ever been, which includes his "temporarily unlocked potential" state in DE.

Plagueis wins all rounds.

@lordofthelight: If Late NJO Luke was already more powerful than DE Sidious, then FOTJ Luke would absolutely roflstomp somebody like DE Sidious.

LOTF Luke would have had absolutely no problems with Caedus, whom most rank to be around Plagueis level. Like, Caedus shouldn't have even been able to touch him.

@bigsambino87:

Like, Caedus shouldn't have even been able to touch him.

To be honest, their fight was very circumstantial. Luke was able to easily overpower Caedus with a telekinetic hold and through an illusion, so in a normal duel, it really wouldn't be that close.

As for the thread, I could see Kyp winning the force round, but Plagueis could just heal from any damage with midichlorian manipulation.

I'm not sure about the bonus. If it's TPM Sidious after killing Plagueis, though, the Sith probably win.

@amethystgravity:

To be honest, their fight was very circumstantial.

You mean the fight onboard Anakin Solo? If so, what is it based on?

It was circumstantial, to an extent. Luke was injured, yes, but not grievously injured. Not even to the point that it slowed him down. It was only when Caedus hit those wounds that Luke faltered. Also, Luke sliced Caedus's kidney's, and he still kept fighting.

As was previously explained, it's much more difficult to break out of a Force grip when unprepared, than it is to resist a Force grip or Force blast when prepared.

Caedus would have lost that fight, every single time, but he still managed to not only go toe-to-toe with a bloodlusted Grandmaster Luke Skywalker, but he injured him in the process. Luke stopped short of killing Caedus, because he didn't want his anger to consume him and turn to the dark side, because he knew that then HE would be the greatest threat to the galaxy, and there was no one strong enough to stop him.

Hego.

@bigsambino87:

It was circumstantial, to an extent. Luke was injured, yes, but not grievously injured.

It's a huge misconception. Luke was never injured in their fight.

Luke stumbled back, his chest filled with fire. Jacen had caught him on the barely healed scar from his first fight with Lumiya, and now his breath was coming in short painful gasps.

The text specifically says that the scar is already healed, and it dosen't matter whether it was healed 5 minutes ago or back during the stone age. It was clearly stated that Luke was not injured during their fight.

Rule of two Sith win all rounds.

@noobsnowman:

You mean the fight onboard Anakin Solo? If so, what is it based on?

While it's been a while since I've read through Legacy of the Force, IIRC:

1. Luke had a scarred injury that Caedus took advantage of. Clearly, it wasn't a fresh wound, but scars can still be sensitive areas, especially if the flesh underneath the skin isn't fully healed.
2. Luke seemed to catch Caedus off guard at the beginning, which helped to land an early strike that would have ended most opponents. Caedus should have been thus hindered by the injury, though like other notable Sith, he also drew power from the pain.
3. The poisonous vine device was used by both Caedus and Luke. While it's a good showing of environmental awareness and adaptability, it's still a factor that wouldn't be in most fights.
4. Ben Skywalker interfered.
5. Luke's emotional state was abnormal.

I'm not saying it isn't a fantastic showing for Caedus, just that on neutral ground with different mindsets, I would think a duel between Luke and Caedus would be very different.

@bigsambino87: I agree with most of your points. Just wondering, though, where is the source/evidence about it being difficult to break out of a TK grip? I agree that applying direct TK isn't always a showing of superiority, given plenty of examples to the contrary (Yoda blasting Sidious into his chair, the Daughter and Son of Mortis grabbing each other with the TK grips, the Father of Mortis blasting both of his children out the window, Luke pulling Abeloth into his lightsaber blade, etc) but Luke pretty clearly dominated Caedus, even after Caedus had ample time to resist.

kyp through much greater force power

Plagueis takes all.

Plageuis ftw.

Round 1 and 3 are the muuns. 2 could go either way.

@amethystgravity:

1. As I said above, a healed scar does not hinder a person in any way possible, not even a normal human being, let alone a force user and especially one within the god tier caliber. So it does not warrant any argument of Luke being injured prior to their fight, at all.

2. Sure, Caedus was amped from the injury, but one should not put so much stock on this asset alone. Most other Sith would linger from the wound for a short while before resuming fighting but Caedus virtually ignored it and struck regardless. Not to mention, it would be rather silly to rank Caedus at Vader level, then suddenly with an injury he gets amped to the point that he stomps his opposition - it simply does not add up.

3-4. These arguments don't benefit the argument of the circumstances benefiting Caedus. Especially the fourth one, it was against him considering that Ben ended the fight prematurely and Caedus was still far from ready to lose.

5. Luke was enraged and bloodlusted, with his son's life on the line, so he would fight with the best of his abilities rather than job around. We know that Luke in character is inconsistent, so any other mindset would honestly benefit Caedus rather than Luke.

@noobsnowman:

1. As I said above, a healed scar does not hinder a person in any way possible, not even a normal human being, let alone a force user and especially one within the god tier caliber. So it does not warrant any argument of Luke being injured prior to their fight, at all.

Didn't Caedus land a physical strike to one of Luke's recent scars from his fight with Lumiya? If so, it's entirely possible that the flesh underneath the scar wasn't fully healed, and would thus be more vulnerable than usual. I don't remember if Luke had bacta treatment in-between those two fights, though, so it's entirely possible that the scar wasn't sensitive. At the same time, why would the text bring it up?

2. Sure, Caedus was amped from the injury, but one should not put so much stock on this asset alone. Most other Sith would linger from the wound for a short while before resuming fighting but Caedus virtually ignored it and struck regardless. Not to mention, it would be rather silly to rank Caedus at Vader level, then suddenly with an injury he gets amped to the point that he stomps his opposition - it simply does not add up.

...Where did I say that Caedus is Vader level, again? I'm not arguing against Caedus being in the top tiers of Star Wars combatants.

3-4. These arguments don't benefit the argument of the circumstances benefiting Caedus. Especially the fourth one, it was against him considering that Ben ended the fight prematurely and Caedus was still far from ready to lose.

5. Luke was enraged and bloodlusted, with his son's life on the line, so he would fight with the best of his abilities rather than job around. We know that Luke in character is inconsistent, so any other mindset would honestly benefit Caedus rather than Luke.

....my argument isn't that all the circumstances favored Caedus, but that the fight isn't representative of how it would have gone in neutral ground, so...

Edit: Admittedly, I did say in my first post that a duel on neutral ground wouldn't be too close, so I suppose that me bringing up the circumstances does mean that I think that they favored Caedus's survival. Basically, their fight was hardly a traditional lightsaber duel, and while that's in large part to how Caedus chose to use the environment, it also has to do with it being in very unusual circumstances.

Also, Ben sort of ended the fight for both sides, seeing as how Caedus received a serious vibroblade injury and Luke was shocked by Ben's approach to the dark side. Besides, it's not that clear cut, given how there was maneuvering on Luke's part to try to keep Caedus away from Ben--again, a circumstance that made the fight different than how it would have gone in a "usual" duel.

@amethystgravity:

Didn't Caedus land a physical strike to one of Luke's recent scars from his fight with Lumiya? If so, it's entirely possible that the flesh underneath the scar wasn't fully healed, and would thus be more vulnerable than usual. I don't remember if Luke had bacta treatment in-between those two fights, though, so it's entirely possible that the scar wasn't sensitive. At the same time, why would the text bring it up?

It was his first fight, not his recent one. Luke and Lumiya fought multiple times and each time it was less and less close in Luke's favour. So it's not surprising for his wounds since their first fight to be already healed, which the text nicely states. Anyways, a lot of people since the beginning of SW debating often bring this injury to prove that Luke was injured during their fight, and I need to debunk that notion.

...Where did I say that Caedus is Vader level, again? I'm not arguing against Caedus being in the top tiers of Star Wars combatants.

Never said you did, but again, one shouldn't put too much stock on Caedus being amped from injuries to prove that he could fight with Luke. It's there, sure, but its not a significant factor.

....my argument isn't that all the circumstances favored Caedus, but that the fight isn't representative of how it would have gone in neutral ground, so...

In neutral ground, Luke would win an all out fight every time due to his considerable superiority in his command of the force. But in terms of duelling and martial prowess, Caedus is definitely within his league - I'd go as far to say that he's Yoda's equal as a duelist, though it's obviously debatable.

Edit: Admittedly, I did say in my first post that a duel on neutral ground wouldn't be too close, so I suppose that me bringing up the circumstances does mean that I think that they favored Caedus's survival. Basically, their fight was hardly a traditional lightsaber duel, and while that's in large part to how Caedus chose to use the environment, it also has to do with it being in very unusual circumstances.

Then again, Luke did as well that enabled him to nearly kill Caedus, so the environmental usage argument is effectively cancelled out. However, I do agree that in an all out fight on neutral ground it wouldn't be as close, but Caedus will still be capable of contending for a while rather than getting stomped outright.

I must also add that Caedus is among the most resourceful fighters in the mythos, a trait that is consistently demonstrated in his fights as a Sith Lord, but its another topic to discuss.

Also, Ben sort of ended the fight for both sides, seeing as how Caedus received a serious vibroblade injury and Luke was shocked by Ben's approach to the dark side. Besides, it's not that clear cut, given how there was maneuvering on Luke's part to try to keep Caedus away from Ben--again, a circumstance that made the fight different than how it would have gone in a "usual" duel.

Fair enough.

@noobsnowman: I agree on most of your points, and I wouldn't think it too crazy at all to put Caedus on RotS Yoda/Sidious's level, given how he's been compared to RotS Anakin/RotS Vader and his immense potential in the Force.

Darth Plagueis would win all rounds.

Round 1: Kyp Durron. Plagueis has NEVER been shown to be anything past average with sabers. Kyp at least has decent showings against masters and references from Luke about his saber abilities.

Round 2: Plagueis by a SMALL margin. While I THINK Plagueis is more skilled with the Force, in NJO, Kyp's raw force power is shown to be at least equal with Luke's, if not slightly higher (Luke passed out when manipulating a singularity while Kyp managed the same feat later while remaining barely conscious afterwards)

Round 3: Kyp Durron. While Plagueis might be more skilled with the Force, due to Kyp's raw power, he does not outclass Kyp in the force, but Kyp outclasses Plagueis in sabers.

Bonus Round: Obviously Jedi team

@criostomp: why does Kyp outclass Plagueis as a duelist?

Kyp could pose a threat, especially in the Force round, but I don't think he can win this.