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Posted by Gilateen (2462 posts) 2 months, 8 days ago

Poll: Kyoka Suigetsu vs Tsukuyomi (80 votes)

Kyoka Suigetsu 54%
Tsukuyomi 46%

•Which illusion is Stronger

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#1 Posted by ourmanuel (6480 posts) - - Show Bio

What do you mean by “stronger”?

cuz of its in terms of intensity, then I’ll go with tsukuyomi.

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#2 Posted by CodeVein (1324 posts) - - Show Bio

if they initially see the release of Kyōka Suigetsu. Although having to see it's release, they foe only has to see it once to be subject to it's powers for a limitless amount of time, no matter how many times Kyōka Suigetsu is activated and deactivated. This was predominantly shown when the Visoreds seem to still be subject to it's powers 110 years after seeing it's initial release. Because the foe has to see the release for the Complete Hypnosis to work, those who have not seen it are effectually immune to it's powers. When the Complete Hypnosis is activated and Aizen wishes to remove the illusion by force of will, it will appear to shatter or melt away. Aizen has stated that Kyōka Suigetsu's Complete Hypnosis is completely flawless, still working even the target knows they are under it's influence.

Ones effects are Definite and flawless and permanent the other can be Resisted and Itachi claims it could be broken by having love mend You.

Whatever the hell that means.

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#3 Posted by JOVIOLMA (4400 posts) - - Show Bio

Tsukuyomi

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#4 Posted by SkySanji (2654 posts) - - Show Bio

Tsukiyomi

You feel as if you've been in there for days

Way more intense than Kyoka suigetsu

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#5 Posted by Bandedessinee (449 posts) - - Show Bio

Kyoka Suigetsu. Kyoka Suigetsu affects all the senses , manipulates your mind so you wouldn't know when you are under it. Tsukuyomi is like a long nightmare. Only infinite tsukuyomi is kyoka suigetsu level .

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#6 Edited by ourmanuel (6480 posts) - - Show Bio

@skysanji said:

Tsukiyomi

You feel as if you've been in there for days

Way more intense than Kyoka suigetsu

This basically.

though aizen’s had some time warping effects too, but it wasn’t on the same level as tsukuyomi’s. Maybe being imprisoned had something to do with it.

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#7 Posted by FullMetalEmprah (2991 posts) - - Show Bio

Tsukuyomi, Kyoka Suigetsu might be more subtle and tougher to get out of but with Tsukuyomi the user basically appears to have godlike capabilities and is able to control time, space, basically everything.

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#9 Posted by JOVIOLMA (4400 posts) - - Show Bio
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#10 Posted by TheVivas (18781 posts) - - Show Bio

Tsukuyomi because KS is basically a basic Genjutsu in the Naruto verse, which is clearly inferior to Tsukuyomi.

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#11 Posted by EcoBlitz (3301 posts) - - Show Bio

Bleach characters have no illusion defense or TP resistance feats that’s why KS is reigning supreme smh. It’s on the level on a basic genjutsu, just without chakra consumption.

Tsukuyomi all day.

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#12 Posted by Jatom22 (1845 posts) - - Show Bio

which would suck more to be under probably Tsukiyomi which would I rather have in battle kyoka suigetsu

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#13 Posted by LeoTheGreatest (2877 posts) - - Show Bio

@thevivas said:

Tsukuyomi because KS is basically a basic Genjutsu in the Naruto verse, which is clearly inferior to Tsukuyomi.

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#14 Posted by LeoTheGreatest (2877 posts) - - Show Bio

@jatom22 said:

which would suck more to be under probably Tsukiyomi which would I rather have in battle kyoka suigetsu

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#15 Posted by AkshSarpanch (3543 posts) - - Show Bio

If this is infinite tuskiyomi, then Naruto side.

If it's normal tsukiyomi, then Aizen's illusion.

Aizen's illusion have better feats.

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#16 Posted by FaradaySloth (5317 posts) - - Show Bio

Dude this been done multiple times

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#17 Edited by thelocust619 (7845 posts) - - Show Bio

Tsukiyomi has the stronger effect, literally everything is controllable and it can physically potato people, possibly kill if u count filler. It also has a cooldown, and a cost.

Kyoka Suigetsu has a better method of application, no cooldown, no cost, and has the bonus perk of being freely reactivated. The actual effect only effects senses, it does not create an entire mental dimension or hospitalize people.

If Tsukiyomi did 10 damage and cost 5 mp, KS does 6 damage and it's free. What I'm saying is whichever is objectively stronger is based on what you're trying to do. If you want to one shot a guy with 10 hp, u want Tsukiyomi. If you want the harem ending, pick KS.

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#18 Edited by uchihaghost (450 posts) - - Show Bio

@ourmanuel: that's a misconception, aizen never affected time in itself, he only affected ywhach's sense of it. Meanwhile itachi did affect time with tsukiyomi.

OT: tsukiyomi can kill and its way more versatile, Aizen can only simulate reality with KS, itachi can do much more with tsukiyomi.

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#19 Posted by CodeVein (1324 posts) - - Show Bio
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#20 Edited by IndomitableRegal (14604 posts) - - Show Bio

Really depends on how you'd define stronger. Literally the only way to get around KS is to grab the blade. It even got around The Almighty somehow. Plus, once you've seen the sword release once, it can be reactivated at will, with no effort, no ill effects, and no time limit (in any sense of the word). I mean, Complete Hypnosis really is the most apropos name for it.

On the other hand, Tsukiyomi is much more intense, and completely warps one's sense of time. You receive days of torture in moments and it's highly likely to break you mentally. It may or may not be possible to break however, and there is a large detriment to the user. Realistically, the Tsukiyomi can't be permanent due to the amount of chakra it uses and the strain on the eye, but it wouldn't need to be anyway.

If I could choose one, I'd take KS.

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#21 Posted by Jatom22 (1845 posts) - - Show Bio

aizen was taking a nap while like 6 captain and lieutenant level Shinigami attacked their own ally

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#22 Edited by Raziel2014 (982 posts) - - Show Bio

@ecoblitz said:

Bleach characters have no illusion defense or TP resistance feats that’s why KS is reigning supreme smh. It’s on the level on a basic genjutsu, just without chakra consumption.

Tsukuyomi all day.

genjutsu is not KS, so you cant use the laws that apply to genjutsu and apply them to bleach it does not work like that beach characters are are spiritual beings/soul base beings which is what illusions is all about. genjutsu laws= any being can break a genjutsu because kishimoto laws said so, KS laws are absolute and its only weakness is touching the source/blade, is like trying to reason with a person that says water can negate fire but applying it to a fire that cant be affected by water.

if KS was a genjutsu it would have been broken in several seconds via Pain, reitsu flux or plainly the soul of a zanpakuto snapping them out or a teammate. why do naruto fans keep disregarding the laws and rules set by kishimoto when they talk about genjutsu sigh.

@thevivas said:

Tsukuyomi because KS is basically a basic Genjutsu in the Naruto verse, which is clearly inferior to Tsukuyomi.

you clearly have not seen Bleach.

Tsukuyomi as strong as it looks is all mental, it has no effect in the real world, what use it tsukuyomi on a being that feels no emotion or pain, getting torture for several days in a mental space where injuries arent in even physical is completely useless besides possibly knocking someone out, KS is permanent for life and it allows the user complete and utter control of that person reality and life to the point they have no idea the are under control, everything tsukuyomi can do besides metal time control can be done by KS in real time to affect the person not ony mentally but physically

KS= Infinite tsukuyomi but in real time which is even beyond infinite tsukuyomi

the weaknesses of genjutsu are too much to even consider it on the same level as KS,

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#23 Edited by ourmanuel (6480 posts) - - Show Bio

@thelocust619 said:

Tsukiyomi has the stronger effect, literally everything is controllable and it can physically potato people, possibly kill if u count filler. It also has a cooldown, and a cost.

Kyoka Suigetsu has a better method of application, no cooldown, no cost, and has the bonus perk of being freely reactivated. The actual effect only effects senses, it does not create an entire mental dimension or hospitalize people.

If Tsukiyomi did 10 damage and cost 5 mp, KS does 6 damage and it's free. What I'm saying is whichever is objectively stronger is based on what you're trying to do. If you want to one shot a guy with 10 hp, u want Tsukiyomi. If you want the harem ending, pick KS.

Pretty much this but I think op meant damage which is why I answered tsukuyomi

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#24 Posted by TheVivas (18781 posts) - - Show Bio
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#25 Posted by Bandedessinee (449 posts) - - Show Bio

KS is definitely above normal genjutsu. Normal genjutsu can be seen through and dispelled (heck Sasuke with a mastered normal sharingan was able to break Itachi's tsukuyomi) while there is no seeing through KS if you are under it's effect and you can't break it. Aizen can also turn it on off as much as he wants and whenever he wants. The only way to deal with KS is to touch the blade before Aizen activates it but Aizen could activate it and you wouldn't even know.

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#26 Posted by ovy7 (1724 posts) - - Show Bio

Tsukiyomi has the stronger effect, literally everything is controllable and it can physically potato people, possibly kill if u count filler. It also has a cooldown, and a cost.

Kyoka Suigetsu has a better method of application, no cooldown, no cost, and has the bonus perk of being freely reactivated. The actual effect only effects senses, it does not create an entire mental dimension or hospitalize people.

If Tsukiyomi did 10 damage and cost 5 mp, KS does 6 damage and it's free. What I'm saying is whichever is objectively stronger is based on what you're trying to do. If you want to one shot a guy with 10 hp, u want Tsukiyomi. If you want the harem ending, pick KS.

Basically this lol

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#27 Edited by ourmanuel (6480 posts) - - Show Bio

Inb4 Hope_w and his shenanigans

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#28 Posted by uchihaghost (450 posts) - - Show Bio

@bandedessinee: Normal genjutsu can be seen through or dispelled because xters in naruto actually have resistance to mind attacks unlike bleach characters who couldn't even see through shit tier illusions like the vizard dude that reverts senses. In naruto illusion of that calibre is genin tier and someone like aizen had to adapt to fight something like that. What i'm saying is bleachverse have no relevant tp resistance feat compared to narutoverse, so what might be OP wont be as OP.

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#29 Posted by Godren (3285 posts) - - Show Bio

basic genjutsu lmao

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#30 Posted by Death_Trumpet (421 posts) - - Show Bio
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#31 Posted by Death_Trumpet (421 posts) - - Show Bio

@uchihaghost: Implying that people from Naruto would be able to see through Shinj’s shikai just because they mentally train themselves to counter genjutsu is kind of a stretch.

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#32 Posted by uchihaghost (450 posts) - - Show Bio

@death_trumpet: Shinji's illusion is an optical illusion, naruto characters have been seeing through that since day one. You want me to prove so? Just ask.

> Bringer of darness was beat by hiruzen which was an optical illusion.

> sasuke with 2 tomoe saw throw illusions in the forest of death (reality simulated clones etc)

> sakura was able to see through kakashi's illusion

> sakura and co broke out of kabuto's feather illusion

Etc etc.

So yes naruto characters have feats of seeing through illusions and part 1 characters have resistance feats better than Aizen or anyone in bleach. KS is not genin tier but shinji's illusion is genin tier in naruto.

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#33 Posted by ComicGirl21 (919 posts) - - Show Bio

KS by far. First off, according to Aizen its completely flawless, untracable, unending and impossible to dispell or counter wether you have full knowledge on it or not.

Secondly, its effects affect entire being. Its actually not just all senses, its ALL of your perception, including perception of time, space, spiritual senses and all. Aizen was able to cheat other peoples perception of reiatsu, was able to make them think that they are talking with him for seconds while he makes them skip hours of actual time.

Thirdly, Aizens hypnosis is not dependant on power or number of targets. Most techniques like these will only take effects when applied on a rival, but cant be used on much superior beings. They also have limits in scale. This is the case for both Bleach and Naruto in general. Not for KS tho. Aizen is able to affect both fodder and much superior beings to himself without any limits. He's succesfully hypnotized ENTIRE SEREITEI which is a large NATION. He hang out his dead body (illusion) for everyone to see in public, meaning he had controlled thousands if not millions of targets at the same time, effortlessly. Among those there were also shinigami far superior to him in power and reiatsu such as Yamamoto. He could even alter the perception of post Soul King fusion Yuha Bach, who was a multi dimensional reality warper so OP that even his hax had hax.

And finally, KS is in the hands of a genius intellect. Aizen is second most intelligent person in Bleach lore and is a versatile genius in science and technology, magic mastery, combat techniques, psychological and sociological study and all fields you can imagine. Had KS been in the hands of an unimaginable noob it would surely be just an average zanpaktou power. But because Aizen is a proper genius, his application of KS's was so damn well executed, that he was able to fool everyone, including all his personal friends, masters and superiors, for well over a hundred years, without anybody ever suspecting anything aside for Shinji alone, whom he actually allowed to suspect him and used it against him in the first place.

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#34 Posted by Helloman (25154 posts) - - Show Bio

Tsukuyomi.

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#35 Posted by ourmanuel (6480 posts) - - Show Bio

@death_trumpet: Shinji's illusion is an optical illusion, naruto characters have been seeing through that since day one. You want me to prove so? Just ask.

> Bringer of darness was beat by hiruzen which was an optical illusion.

> sasuke with 2 tomoe saw throw illusions in the forest of death (reality simulated clones etc)

> sakura was able to see through kakashi's illusion

> sakura and co broke out of kabuto's feather illusion

Etc etc.

So yes naruto characters have feats of seeing through illusions and part 1 characters have resistance feats better than Aizen or anyone in bleach. KS is not genin tier but shinji's illusion is genin tier in naruto.

Just to clarify, naruto characters do not have illusion resistance per se, they have genjutsu resistance. And most of it is due to the fact that genjutsu has the side effect of messing up someone’s chakra. This is why people with the sharingan and byakugan are easily able to beat genjutsu, because it’s easy for them to tell when someons’s screwing with their chakra. Or sensor types like Karin and Sakura who can easily tell too when someone’s messing with their chakra. The Uchihas are better at this since they themselves have an innate understanding of genjutsu via their sharingan having genjutsu too. Breaking out of most genjutsu in naruto only requires chakra flexin/stabilization(by yourself of someone else), pain(by yourself or someone else), sometimes willpower and for the caster to stop the illusions. These same rules don’t apply to KS. They’re from different verses and work in different ways. Even if energies are equalized, KS doesn’t mess up your reiatsu and the only way that the author has given as a way out of it is to touch the blade before the its release. Saying KS can be broken out of by genjutsu kai, is like saying that Charles Xavier’s tp can be broken out of with just genjutsu kai. They don’t work the same way and don’t have the same side effects as genjutsu in the narutoverse.

And by the way, bleach characters do have illusions and some form of resistance to it. Hinamori used an illusion to hide her presence and that of her kido net against the arrancars. Shinji broke through a kido illusion that Aizen was using to hide himself in turn back the pendulum arc.

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#36 Edited by The_Stern_ritter (566 posts) - - Show Bio

Short term= Tsukuyomi

Long Term= Kyoka Suigestu

And lol @ KS being basic genjutsu in naruto wtf

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#37 Posted by WorldofRuin6 (1316 posts) - - Show Bio

In verse, KS stomps.

Out of verse, tsukuyomi stomps. It can alter a person's perception of time and pain. Nuff said.

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#38 Posted by uchihaghost (450 posts) - - Show Bio

@ourmanuel: dude genjutsu is the same thing as illusion, so yes naruto characters do have resistance.

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#39 Edited by ourmanuel (6480 posts) - - Show Bio

@uchihaghost: no, not really. How’s someone like Sakura or ino gonna break out of Charles Xavier’s mind control?? By flexing their chakra??

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#40 Edited by Bandedessinee (449 posts) - - Show Bio

@uchihaghost: LOL Shinji's shikai Sakanade is way above any normal genjutsu. Normal genjutsu in Naruto just make you see stuff that isn't real while Sakanade inverts your mind's sense of direction (no normal genjutsu in Naruto does that). Anyone would have to adapt to it including Naruto characters.

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#41 Edited by Man_of_Miracles (3203 posts) - - Show Bio

People in Bleach have basically 0 TP resistance feats. Don't know why that is so hard to grasp. People with decent illusion resistance should be able to resist KS just fine. It has no feats of working on characters with actual illusion/psychic resistance.

Seems pretty obvious that if you put an illusion user in a world with no illusion defense it's going to seem OP.

Kind of silly people have a tough time grasping that.

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#42 Posted by CodeVein (1324 posts) - - Show Bio

^ KS explicitly doesn't work like this.

Any Genjutsu done to them their Zanpakuto could just snap them out of it. (Not like it matters because it explicitly won't work on the dead)

And the only Genjutsu you could compare KS to isn't the Basic Genjutsu but rather IT.

Seriously go read both of them and see what it says they both do.

They don't have Mental resistance feats?

The Muramasa arc Disagrees where Muramasa tried to force Zangetsu to leave Ichigo via mental shenanigans and Zangetsu outright said nah sorry fam and proceeded to whoop Muramasa till he was bounded by him.

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#43 Posted by CodeVein (1324 posts) - - Show Bio

You can also be completely aware you're under KS but you can't break it or do anything about it unless you go touch Aizen's sword somehow.

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#44 Posted by COOLGUY18 (726 posts) - - Show Bio

Aizen makes the caster thinks that he already cast tsukiyomi.

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#45 Posted by TheVivas (18781 posts) - - Show Bio

Still Tsukuyomi cause KS is a basic Genjutsu. Bleach fanboys can laugh all they want, yet years later they still can’t disprove this.

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#46 Posted by Man_of_Miracles (3203 posts) - - Show Bio

@codevein: You are talking out of your ass as usual.

KS is an illusion brought on by Aizen's zanpaktou. Anyone that has decent illusion resistance should be able to resist it without issue. Bleach characters haven't shown any illusion resistance whatsoever so obviously KS works extremely well on them.

Let me ask you so I can clarify. Do you believe KS would work on Charles Xavier or Emma Frost? (As examples).

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#47 Edited by Man_of_Miracles (3203 posts) - - Show Bio

@codevein: The Muramasa feat you mentioned has nothing to do with resisting illusions.

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#48 Posted by B_r023 (5330 posts) - - Show Bio

KS has only ever worked on people with 0 defense or feats against illusions.

Tuskuyomi stomps.

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#49 Posted by CodeVein (1324 posts) - - Show Bio

@man_of_miracles: Would you think Genjutsu would work on either of those?

I can easily launch the question right back on you seeing how you seem to believe its Basic Genjutsu lvl yet we can outright compare its effects to IT by reading the description of both.

Except again they have. The Muramasa arc would like some words with you.

Zanpakuto's CAN snap their Users out of illusions they are two separate entities for one.

While KS is explicitly not fooling with Reiatsu or Energy its Absolute Hypnosis.

Any fooling with Reiatsu the Zanpakuto would immediately take notice of.

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#50 Posted by CodeVein (1324 posts) - - Show Bio

@man_of_miracles: It does Because Muramasa showed an Illusion to the Zanpakutos to make them rebel while Genjutsu's aren't capable of messing with anything spiritual and we out right have Zangetsu see right through the attempt at manipulation and proceeds to whoop the shit out of Muramasa.

You seem to think they have no resistance to illusions just because Aizen is running around with a damn Zanpakuto that has Absolute hypnosis that doesn't mess with Reiatsu and could even mess with Almighty's Clairvoyance which no Genjustu to date has ever done something near to this.

Tsukuyomi is inserting your chakra flow right through the eyes of the target and then into the brain.