Even being wounded is no excuse to lose to an untrained noob who has never held a lightsaber in her life. Heck a freaking STORMTROOPER was managing to hold him off
I don't even know xesh but kylo was Shit level.He lost to an untrained Jedi and swang his lightsaber super slowly.This can't be attributed to Bad animation as it's a 2016 movie.Seriously Clone Wars Ahsoka would stomp him...
I heard Xesh deflected lightning with tutaminis or barrier, which is pretty impressive, and probably beyond Ren's blaster bolt feat.
Other than that, though, I'm not sure who the victor would be.
Kylo deflected, while gravely injured, multiple lightsaber blows and a lightsaber contains quite a bit more energy then your average Force Lightning (with the exception of Sidious/Valkorion).
Kylo deflected, while gravely injured, multiple lightsaber blows and a lightsaber contains quite a bit more energy then your average Force Lightning (with the exception of Sidious/Valkorion).
Well, Xesh hasn't only deflected your average Force Lightning; to put it plainly, Xesh became infused with the eye of a Force Storm which was threatening all life on Tython. It took the combined efforts of eight Je'daii council members on a Force nexus lending their energy to a ninth Jedi just to separate Xesh from the storm.
Feats-wise, Xesh has it in the bag. Hype-wise, he has it in the bag. Really, by any metric, Xesh looks better.
Ren is too underdeveloped to be placed over the likes of Xesh simply going off what we've seen so far. Perhaps when Ren is expanded upon in later works will we get a more accurate placement for him.
Kylo Ren is taking a lot of heat because he has no feats other what we have seen in the film. I am not claiming that is an excuse to give him a pass for this fight. However, most comments that discredit Kylo Ren solely based on his performance of Finn and Rey is usually misinformed and ridiculous.
His bout with Finn was quite decisively in Kylo's favor. As he approached Finn and Rey he was suffering from the lose of Han Solo and he is bleeding out from Chewy's bowcaster. He dispatched Rey with little strain and engaged Finn. Kylo was surprised at Finn's resistance but the number of exchanged of blows between the two wasn't a statement of weakness on Kylo's part. Kylo was enjoying the challenge from Finn and wasn't seeking to end the fight quickly at first - that is until Finn landed a lucky blow.
"Stunned by his own action, Kylo Ren fell to his knees. Following through on the act ought to have made him stronger, a part of him believed. Instead, he found himself weakened."
- The Force Awakens novelization
"Kylo Ren is somehow WEAKENED by this wicked act. Himself horrified. His SHOCK is broken only when -- CHEWIE CRIES OUT IN AGONY! Chewie furiously FIRES AT KYLO REN, HITTING HIM IN THE SIDE! Kylo Ren falls back, stunned." - The Force Awakens script
"Before she could fire, Ren raised a hand, halting her. She strained against him, her anger giving her strength. But she couldn’t fire. He was struggling also, against her newly discovered ability, as well as the wound inflicted by Chewbacca’s bowcaster."
- The Force Awakens novelization
"The longer the contest continued, the stronger Ren seemed to become. It was as if he was enjoying the challenge. Feeding upon it.
At least, it appeared so until Finn parried, swung, and unexpectedly stabbed, the tip of his lightsaber beam grazing Ren’s arm. That made it more than a challenge. Taking a step back, Ren reconsidered his opponent. When he closed the distance between them anew, it was with a purpose that had been previously lacking. Expecting an execution, he had found a contest. Now he had been touched. It was time for play to end."
- The Force Awakens novelization
"Kylo Ren is obviously hampered by his wound, yet he attacks with a primal SAVAGERY -- Finn BLOCKS, turning DEFENSIVE moves into OFFENSIVE ones. And he ACTUALLY GETS A HIT IN! LUKE'S SABER GRAZING KYLO REN'S ARM! Kylo MOVES BACK -- wounded, but more enraged than weakened. Kylo Ren CHARGES AGAIN -- their WEAPONS POUND, SPARKS FLY, their blades LOCK, the men are CLOSE, LIT BY the powerful, CRASHING sabers: And Kylo Ren PUSHES FINN BACK, attacks with pure ferocity -- Finn is stunned -- unprepared for this fierceness. Rey sees this -- Kylo Ren unleashes a MERCILESS SERIES OF BLOWS, pushing Finn further and further back until he loses balance. (CONTINUED) CONTINUED: That's when KYLO REN STRIKES: HE LANDS A BLOW TO FINN'S TORSO --" -The Force Awakens script
Afterwards, he clearly eliminates Finn with post haste. He is shocked to see Rey back in the fight and she meets him with strength that was unexpected. Rey, whom is a stranger to a lightsaber but is not a stranger to combat, lacks size and innate strength of someone of Kylo's size but she possessed something Kylo hasn't seen in lightsaber combat.
"Ren met her with his own weapon alight. Expecting weakness, he encountered only strength. Her skill with the device was raw at best, but it was backed by a fury that was as new to his experience as it was unexpected."
- The Force Awakens novelization
"FOR THE FIRST TIME, HER EYES BLAZING. Kylo Ren IGNITES HIS SABER. It's REY who charges now -- Kylo Ren immediately on the defensive. They BATTLE POWERFULLY -- He is clearly rocked by her raw, innate skill." -The Force Awakens script
Before Kylo eventually gains some of his composure and seizes the momentary advantage over Rey, Rey had only fought Kylo with the skills she knew growing up. Furthermore, Kylo probably wasn't attempting to kill Rey once she establish how strong she was by demonstrating her feat of pulling Luke's lightsaber from Kylo's awaiting grasp. The only evidence I have to suggest this is when their lightsabers are locked and he states, "I could kill you right now. But there is another way... You need a teacher... I can show you the ways of the Force!” Once she focused and merged her innate ability with her new found connection with the Force is when she seized the decisive advantage against Kylo - who, again, is unexpectedly weakened from killing his father and now, by the time Rey gains the advantage, has lost a significant amount of blood.
If anyone wants to claim that Kylo Ren is inexperienced and the current canon doesn't support the adequate feats for any specific battle then state and prove it as so. However, I claim that there is more to Kylo's power/skill than we have seen from his lose to Rey.
@i_like_swords: Is it ever established if he used tutaminus to deflect the saber of if he just telekinetically pushed the blade back?
Because one is a lot more impressive than the other
I was actually pondering if there is an alternate way to interpret the text; I found it out of theme that Kylo could start backhanding a lightsaber blade, especially in his condition, and we didn't see it in the movie, or really anywhere in Canon save for the Ones. Your theory works better IMO.
@greysentinel365: @i_like_swords: I agree that the novel reads more to Kylo used the Force to guide Rey's blade away from him. The novel followed really close to the script/film but someone using tutaminus would be a significant step away IMO.
@wollfmyth209: I never made a stance to claim one way or another because I have not read Dawn of the Jedi nor do I know who Xesh is. I mostly addressed all those said "Kylo was Shit level" and "being wounded is no excuse to lose to an untrained noob." I hear and read this a lot and I only mean to address these comments.
@teamfingolfin: I feel you. People enjoy spamming that baseless argument, despite even though just watching the movie is enough to see that's not the case.
@greysentinel365: That scene is depicted in the junior novelization of The Force Awakens like this:
Ren extended a hand, calling on the Force to ward off her attacks. At first it worked, as she slashed into the iron shield of his will, but then her blad cut across his face. It burned.
So looking at this quote it's pretty clear that he was using Deflection/Tutamis or putting up a TK barrier since Rey was slashing into 'the iron shield of his will'. Either way, he used the force to tank Rey's lightsaber strikes.
@i_like_swords: You said Xesh became 'infused' with that Force Storm but would he then have used Tutamis to absorp that energy since he was also the source of that same Force Storm IIRC? I found the scene a bit confusing.
@i_like_swords: You said Xesh became 'infused' with that Force Storm but would he then have used Tutamis to absorp that energy since he was also the source of that same Force Storm IIRC? I found the scene a bit confusing.
Tython is a planet which is extremely strong in the Living Force, and thus it doesn't take much to sway it one way or the other - it's usually fine because the Je'daii practice balance, using both the Light and Dark sides of the Force. When Xesh crash landed on Tython, he engineered an explosion which killed everybody aboard his ship. Such a potent expression of death and Xesh's own Dark power/alignment brought about an imbalance in the living Force, pushing it towards the Dark Side. The Dark Side is destructive, chaotic, and violent, and thus it brought about a Tython Force storm, of which Xesh was at the nexus of. He became a part of the storm and fed it's power by continuing to use the Dark Side, and the storm fed his own power. Sort of like a battery circuit. They used each other to become stronger.
The point is that the storm was huge, and Xesh was able to channel the energy within himself, due to his training as a Force Hound - Force sensitive slaves who the Rakatans used for other energy-related tasks like powering their capital ships and weaponry. Xesh is the greatest Force Hound of them all, and thus is immensely powerful.
So because I am a (big) fan of Kylo Ren and hereby have an image of him as my profile pic, I am always going to prefer him over any other character in a battle thread? Well that's kind of cheap.
Luke Skywalker is the most powerful Jedi and the balance of the force. The greatest.
He gets his ass handed to him in lightsaber use vs Vader in two moves in the comics. Loses handily again vs a holding back Vader after having a year or so of training in Cloud City.
Yet Kylo who train all his life as a Jedi gets bested by a chick who never held a lightsaber is suppose to be acceptable by any standard? Because she has innate skill through the force though she is weaker than Luke and Anakin potential, and never had Ben kenobi to even teach her basics?
Yet Kylo who train all his life as a Jedi gets bested by a chick who never held a lightsaber is suppose to be acceptable by any standard? Because she has innate skill through the force though she is weaker than Luke and Anakin potential, and never had Ben kenobi to even teach her basics?
How do you know what the limit of her potential is? She was able to use mind tricks instantly, and there are rumors she is the daughter of Luke. So her potential might be as good or even better than the previous Skywalkers for all we know.
So because I am a (big) fan of Kylo Ren and hereby have an image of him as my profile pic, I am always going to prefer him over any other character in a battle thread? Well that's kind of cheap.
Nah I was just kidding. But I would like to know how.
@i_like_swords: First of all thanks for the explanation. Secondly, wouldn't it be logical that Xesh could channel this immense energy because he was simultaneously feeding of it's power? Compare it with a certain Force user (e.g. Darth Bane) who arrives on a Force Nexus (e.g. Lehon), suddenly Darth Bane could channel/produce more energy (Force power) then he ever had before because he was feeding of this nexus yet does that mean that he can channel the same amount of energy if he wouldn't be on that planet? I don't think so because he can't feed of this nexus like Xesh, under normal circumstances, can't feed of the Force Storm.
I admit that Xesh is an immensly powerful Force user, feat wise and accolade wise, but that doesn't necessarely put him above Kylo Ren.
I swear there's too many Kylo fanboys these days, it's like 100's of them fell in love with him because he can freeze a blaster bolt :/
I swear I've seen some even say Kylo is on par with Darth Maul and could curb stomp Asohka.
I do consider Kylo Ren, at his best, close or even on par with Darth Maul but that's me I guess. However I never claimed, nor ever will, that he could stomp Ahsoka (at least not by the time of Rebels) and the latter is pretty close to Darth Maul so such a claim would be unsupported by the feats and facts we have.
@g2_: Oh, yeah allright :p I (personally) think that Kylo's training (which contained a lifetime of training and practice under Luke and studying arcane/rare Dark Side knowledge under Snoke) in combination with his potential as a Solo/Skywalker something that would put him above/comparable with Xesh. Also Kylo deflecting lightsaber strikes at a moment when he's massively injured (bleeding out, mentally hindered, unable to stand,...) could give us an idea just how powerful he is when he's at his best.
Yet Kylo who train all his life as a Jedi gets bested by a chick who never held a lightsaber is suppose to be acceptable by any standard? Because she has innate skill through the force though she is weaker than Luke and Anakin potential, and never had Ben kenobi to even teach her basics?
How do you know what the limit of her potential is? She was able to use mind tricks instantly, and there are rumors she is the daughter of Luke. So her potential might be as good or even better than the previous Skywalkers for all we know.
Current Lore as it stands is she is weaker. Anakin was the Chosen One, and strongest in potential. Luke was actually never hinted being the real Chosen One when Anakin fell to the Darkside. Either way, both in Legends and Canon establish Lore are the only known replacements for The Father of Mortis. The strongest Force beings in potential.
Now what accolades does Rey have? She was the daughter of Luke? So what? So is Cade Skywalker and he was not nearly as strong in Legends. What about the movie and novel, do either of the canon sources state anything about her being the most powerful Jedi ever? Nope, just that she is strong in the force.
As it stands now, and most likely as it stands in the next film she will be nothing more than a Mary Sue. JJ Abrams screwed up, that simple.
Secondly, wouldn't it be logical that Xesh could channel this immense energy because he simultaneously feeding of it's power?
They go hand-in-hand. Xesh grew in power because he was able to tap into the power and use it for his own purposes, opposed to the Lightning just frying him to death.
Compare it with a certain Force user (e.g. Darth Bane) who arrives on a Force Nexus (e.g. Lehon), suddenly Darth Bane could channel/produce more energy (Force power)
There's a difference here; Tython, and the Force storm itself, aren't a Force nexus. And using Tutaminis to channel Lightning has nothing to do with Bane benefiting from being in a Force-rich environment.
then he ever had before because he was feeding of this nexus
That's also not exactly how nexus' work, in my opinion. The reason Force users are stronger on a nexus is not because they feed on it's energy, it's because there is more energy around them to manipulate and draw upon. When a Jedi uses the Force all they are doing is manipulating the Force energy that is inside every single molecule in the galaxy. No Force - no energy to work with. An excess of Force energy - a higher than usual amount of power to work with.
It's just two different situations. What Xesh did is in the vein of someone absorbing Force lightning, or a blaster bolt. Or a flamethrower, or a lightsaber, and so on.
yet does that mean that he can channel the same amount of energy if he wouldn't be on that planet?
I don't see why it would be different on any other planet. Tython itself isn't a nexus, which is clear because in #0 of Dawn of the Jedi it mentions that the Je'daii temple is a Force nexus; why would they isolate the temple if the whole planet was a nexus?
I don't think so because he can't feed of this nexus like Xesh, under normal circumstances, can't feed of the Force Storm.
It's definitely a unique circumstance, Xesh can't summon storms at will, but in order to be at the centre of such a powerful weather phenomenon - one that was threatening all life on Tython - and become a part of it, channelling all of that energy into yourself, you need to be extremely powerful. It's an unprecedented feat. Which is why the other characters in the series spend the subsequent pages after the Force Storm discussing how powerful and dangerous Xesh is, and how quickly he could cause another imbalance by practising the Dark Side.
I admit that Xesh is an immensly powerful Force user, feat wise and accolade wise, but that doesn't necessarely put him above Kylo Ren.
It doesn't hurt, given that Kylo's best accomplishments are palming a lightsaber, freezing a blaster bolt, and surviving being shot in the stomach by a mini-cannon, which all honestly pale in comparison to what Xesh did - in terms of the actual physics involved, and from a narrative standpoint.
That said, it's apples and oranges. Xesh is a Legends character, which means as far as Canon is concerned, the events of Dawn of the Jedi are myths and legends, which may or may not carry some truth, but are also likely to be embellishments of fact. In other words, non-canon. Two different mediums, continuities and writing teams, making it sort of impossible to compare the two of them accurately.
Accolades-wise does give a better picture. Xesh is the greatest of an order of Force sensitive warriors who the writer of the series states are mostly closely comparable to Jedi. In his first appearance he established himself as an immensely powerful and dangerous being who the entire Je'daii Council were wary of, and who needed to band together their efforts together to stop. He would go on to defeat Skal'nas, the Emperor of the Rakatan empire, which very much like the Sith is an order that favours ruthlessness and cunning - only the strongest and the smartest are allowed to rule. Meaning, out of every Rakatan in the galaxy-spanning empire, Skal'nas was the most powerful and intelligent. Xesh beating him is clearly a big deal.
Kylo is presented as powerful, but he's an underling to Snoke. He doesn't even know how to create a stable lightsaber blade, which is a staple process of becoming a Jedi or Sith. His training is incomplete. He's clearly killed Jedi before and is well known for it, but it doesn't quite give off the same impression as literally becoming the weather.
Ergo, either Xesh wins or it's a question that has no answer.
@sirfizzwhizz: The whole point of potential is developing into something else. Rey has no current accolades and obviously she isn't the most powerful jedi at the moment....We know little about her at the moment because her origin is a mystery at the moment. All I'm saying is that your comment doesn't have any support. Your basing your comment on appealing to ignorance.
@sirfizzwhizz: The whole point of potential is developing into something else. Rey has no current accolades and obviously she isn't the most powerful jedi at the moment....We know little about her at the moment because her origin is a mystery at the moment. All I'm saying is that your comment doesn't have any support. Your basing your comment on appealing to ignorance.
I disagree. Until we get solid measurement of her power, she is trash. Anakin was the best of the best, and rising star in a time of master Jedi of their art. Was stated by the Ones as the strongest. He has accolades, and even he cannot pick up a lightsaber and beat a suppose "skilled Jedi/Sith" like Kylo off the bat.
Then there is these facts, Rey is the only Jedi who never heard of the force but manages to be perfect at everything? Never flew a ship, and piloted the Flacon that would make Anakin go DAAAMN! Never shot a blaster, but now a crack shot. Never used a lightsaber, but beats a suppose Jedi Killer who train all his life in skill? Why not. Never heard of the force, but yet masters Jedi Mind Trick that Anakin and Luke took time to with training? No reason what so ever? BS.
All that supports the fact JJ Abrams was a joke for doing what he did in this film that all SW fans are praising blindly.
He gets his ass handed to him in lightsaber use vs Vader in two moves in the comics.
Um, okay. How about context and relevance?
Loses handily again vs a holding back Vader after having a year or so of training in Cloud City.
I have no idea what you are talking about. When is it that Vader is holding back against Luke and who trained for a year or so in Cloud City?
Yet Kylo who train all his life as a Jedi gets bested by a chick who never held a lightsaber is suppose to be acceptable by any standard?
What proof do you have that Kylo trained to be a Jedi all his life?
Because she has innate skill through the force though she is weaker than Luke and Anakin potential,
How do we know that Rey has lower potential than Luke and Anakin and how would this be a negative fact to anyone (as it would apply to everyone except Sidious)?
Kylo Ren is absurdly underrated. He's honestly one of the most powerful force users to appear in the Star Wars movies. Sure his lightsaber combat leaves much to be desired, but his innate raw power is incredible and I honestly don't see many people defeating him in a force battle aside from the high tier characters.
This is Luke Sjywalker who would have the same if not more by accolades Lightsaber innate skill than Rey. Now is Kylo is so good as some claim, why did their fight not go down this way? Also injury is not a excuse for lack of skill.
I have no idea what you are talking about. When is it that Vader is holding back against Luke and who trained for a year or so in Cloud City?
Thats right. Luke with training, and over a year use of the Saber had his ass handed to him from a Vader who was holding back as per new canon from Directior of Clone Wars and Rebels.
What proof do you have that Kylo trained to be a Jedi all his life?
Oh I dont know, the fact he was as a kid part of Lukes new Jedi order.
How do we know that Rey has lower potential than Luke and Anakin and how would this be a negative fact to anyone (as it would apply to everyone except Sidious)?
Can you show me accolades or statements of her being on par with two characters meant to replace the Father as balance of the Force? I will be waiting for that proof. Till then... she is a Mary Sue, but still nobody who beat Kylo in force and saber skills.
@sirfizzwhizz: Honestly the last 2 paragraphs of your post just make it sound like you dislike the character (which is fine). Anakin having accolades and feats makes him better than her currently as things stand. All I am asking is what is your proof Rey's potential is factually beneath there? Your making assumptions based on lack of evidence when there is no evidence her potential is below luke and Anakins either. Yea we can't assume she is better than them but its not a fact her potential is lower than theres. Rey has just started out, we need to wait and see what she will become to say what her potential will be. Maybe she wont surpass Anakin or Luke....but we don't know that yet. So saying her potential is lower than Anakin or Luke's isn't fair when you have no way of knowing that.
This is Luke Sjywalker who would have the same if not more by accolades Lightsaber innate skill than Rey.
I see a comic of Luke, untrained in the Force and lightsaber combat, being bested by a seasoned warrior. I don’t know how this compares Luke’s experience with Rey’s experience. How does this prove that Luke is a skilled combatant (as I recall Luke was bested by one of the Sandpeople on Tatooine in ANH whereas Rey was able to not only defend herself but stomp two thugs unconscious on Jakku: this doesn't state their ability with a lightsaber but Rey is no stranger to combat. She spent all her life defending herself against thugs and pirates.)?
Now is Kylo is so good as some claim, why did their fight not go down this way?
I never made a claim that Kylo was "so good" at anything. However, you are also comparing Darth Vader’s skill and power to Kylo Ren. That is just silly. In the comic Luke has no real Force feats to date. I see no reason why Darth Vader doesn’t own Luke (a non-trained Force user) the very way he did in the comic. Kylo Ren had shown multiple times that he dominated Rey (non-trained Force user) until her duel with Kylo. At this time it had already been noted that Rey’s aptitude with the Force was exponential. We have really only seen the likes from Luke whom had to teach himself until he meets up with Yoda. Between Kylo being emotionally hindered and physically wounded and Rey growing in Force power shows she was able to stand her ground against Kylo. Moreover, as I said before in a previous post:
Kylo probably wasn't attempting to kill Rey once she establish how strong she was by demonstrating her feat of pulling Luke's lightsaber from Kylo's awaiting grasp. The only evidence I have to suggest this is when their lightsabers are locked and he states, "I could kill you right now. But there is another way... You need a teacher... I can show you the ways of the Force!”
Now that I am thinking on it some more, Snoke told Kylo to bring Rey to him; further stating Kylo probably wasn't fighting to kill.
Also injury is not a excuse for lack of skill.
How is Kylo lacking skill? Whom are you comparing him to to make this claim?
Thats right. Luke with training, and over a year use of the Saber had his ass handed to him from a Vader who was holding back as per new canon from Directior of Clone Wars and Rebels.
So you claim that Vader held back when fighting Luke in ESB. Vader with 35 or more years of Force and lightsaber experience vs Luke’s three. And…
Oh I dont know, the fact he was as a kid part of Lukes new Jedi order.
What age was Kylo when he was sent to go train with Luke? I have only heard and read:
“There was too much Vader in him.” “That’s why I wanted him to train with Luke,” Leia said. “I just never should have sent him away. That’s when I lost him. When I lost you both.”
–The Force Awakens novel and fairly close from the film.
If you know more please provide proof so that I may be informed of how long Kylo has been practicing in the Force. As it stands we don't know how long Kylo was trained by Luke.
Can you show me accolades or statements of her being on par with two characters meant to replace the Father as balance of the Force? I will be waiting for that proof. Till then... she is a Mary Sue, but still nobody who beat Kylo in force and saber skills.
I never claimed that she had the potential of Anakin or Luke. I agree with you that as canon stands Anakin once had the greatest potential than any other being. I think George Lucas said that Luke has roughly the same potential of what Anakin could have been before his injuries (I don’t have proof of this statement) and even if George did say this I am not sure that it is still canon. My last two questions still stand unanswered: How do we know that she doesn’t have at least the same potential as Luke? Just because she doesn’t have the same potential as Anakin or Luke how is this relevant? Potential only places a ceiling above someone’s ability to grow: it is not a limit to their aptitude to do something.
@sirfizzwhizz: I'm pretty sure Cade is Luke's great grandson, or even great-great grandson.
Besides, Luke's son, Ben Skywalker, had enough potential for Abeloth to consider him as the replacement for the Daughter, at least after he were to drink from the font of power.
@sirfizzwhizz: You previously said Cade was Luke's son. And he's not his grandson either, if anything Kol, Cade's father, would be Luke's grandson, seeing as how Ben is Luke's actual son.
@amethystgravity: @thevivas: I known miss said Cade being the son, whatevs my bad, but in the Comic with the flash backs I'm sure it stated Vader was his great grandfather and Luke his grand father. Also legends canon was hardly accurate all the time as Kol Skywalker was Lukes son and had no connection to the Legends stories of Ben, Solos, ect.
Ok so Wookiepedia states by timeline That Anakin > Luke > Ben > Kol > Cade in oldest generation to youngest. Though my next question is was Ben Skywalker near the level of Luke or Anakin/Vader at their best?
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