Rules
- TROS Kylo Ren
- In character
- Canon feats only for Maul
Rounds
Kylo Ren vs TPM Maul
Kylo Ren vs Clone Wars Season 7 Maul
Location
Kylo Ren vs Maul
@daddyprometheus said:
Kylo Ren takes this, he's more skilled than TPM Maul (who got pushed by Kenobi and Jinn), and Season 7 Maul isn't as balanced as his TPM self despite growing more powerful in the Force, and his Force power is inferior anyway, so there's nothing he can do to Kylo.
Maul got beaten by Ahsoka, after all, who would get stomped by Kylo, the Season 7 round would be even easier than the TPM round, Kylo wrecks him, Maul would ask for mercy.
@daddyprometheus said:
Kylo Ren takes this, he's more skilled than TPM Maul (who got pushed by Kenobi and Jinn),
He doesn't have a single skill showing to suggest that he is more skilled than TPM Maul. Getting pressed by Kenobi and Jinn isn't an anti feat, that's a testament to his skill.
Fighting two skilled Jedi at the same time isn't something that Kylo has ever done:
Also, Jinn was the only one who was really pressing him up until that point. He was blocking their combined strike with one arm:
Even in terms of accolades, he has Kylo beat as far as skill goes:
''One of the most skilled and deadly warriors in Sith history, Darth Sidious's apprentice was to be the First Sith openly encountered by the Jedi Order for more than 1,000 years.'' ~ The Official Star Wars Fact File Remake #001 (2014)
And:
''One of the deadliest, most efficiently trained Sith in the Order's history.'' ~ Source: Ultimate Star Wars (2015)
@frozen said:
@son_ofthe_force said:
Dude you need to think that Darth Maul was almost beaten by Pre Vyzla... I mean Kylo would stomp both of them by force freezing them lol. Maul is inquisitor level not more no less.
What is this nonsense?
A holding back post prime Maul was comfortably fighting 3 inquisitors at the same time in Rebels. He then later went on to wreck them.
This holding back Maul? boai he got beaten by a blind dude lol
@frozen: don’t forget these:
These are some decent statements too.
@frozen said:
@son_ofthe_force: Again, watch:
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@jedisympathiz3r said:
@son_ofthe_force: Kylo got restrained by one Praetorian Guard. Kylo is Fodder imho
@son_ofthe_force said:
@jedisympathiz3r said:
@son_ofthe_force: Kylo got restrained by one Praetorian Guard. Kylo is Fodder imho
@jedisympathiz3r said:
@son_ofthe_force: Kylo got restrained by one Praetorian Guard. Kylo is Fodder imho
Also got solo'd by an untrained force user who had never held a lightsaber.
Inb4 he says "she downloaded his training" or whatever the crappy retcon was. It's just funny to post when others play the lowball game:
@daddyprometheus: Neither Kylo’s fights with TROS Rey or TFA Finn were stomps
He was not rivaled by base TPM Kenobi(who is knight level). And even with rage amped Kenobi he was caught off guard:
@daddyprometheus: No offence, but a lot of this just seems like descriptions of Kylo's backstory rather than his actual feats. It's good in theory, but it doesn't particuarly strike me as impressive. And honestly, citing the fact that he beat Finn just... isn't impressive to me.
If we want to just describe why things are impressive in theory, then I could write an essay on why Qui Gon and Kenobi are much more impressive, considering the fact that they were highly skilled Jedi at the time of the order's prime.
Anyway, as I said before, being pressed by Qui Gon isn't an anti feat. At all. Qui Gon was a council level member, and the only reason he wasn't on the council is because he refused to join in Master and Apprentice. I'm not sure where this idea came from that being pressed by a highly skilled Jedi is somehow an anti feat? His training is directly attributed to Obi Wan's skill:
"From Qui-Gon, Obi-Wan gained the skills and the wisdom that would serve him so well as a Jedi and as a military leader during the Clone Wars.'' ~ Source: Age of Republic - Qui-Gon Jinn (2019)
In fact, this speed feat from Qui Gon is better than anything I've seen from Kylo. From his one-shot comic appearance, he deflects blasters from about 8-9 multi directional blasts while also holding a woman with one arm and also not even looking at the blasts. If you look at the first page, its possible that it could have been upwards of 20 blasters given how many guards are present:
Gallery
The only time when Kenobi rivalled him was his rage amp. And he still basically lost. Padawan Kenobi was already quickly on his way to becoming a knight. Without the rage amp, he was getting handled by Maul considering Maul kicked him away.
He does that more than once in the same fight.
Anakin is > Maul, but Kylo doesn't equal Anakin. I've seen the light saber quote you're referring to, and it doesn't scale them to having equal skill. It's a huge reach. Also, I'm sceptical on whether Kylo even has that much of an advantage in the force, considering Maul's hyperdrive feat is arguably better than anything Kylo has done.
@frozen said:
@daddyprometheus: No offence, but a lot of this just seems like descriptions of Kylo's backstory rather than his actual feats. It's good in theory, but it doesn't particuarly strike me as impressive. And honestly, citing the fact that he beat Finn just... isn't impressive to me.
If we want to just describe why things are impressive in theory, then I could write an essay on why Qui Gon and Kenobi are much more impressive, considering the fact that they were highly skilled Jedi at the time of the order's prime.
Anyway, as I said before, being pressed by Qui Gon isn't an anti feat. At all. Qui Gon was a council level member, and the only reason he wasn't on the council is because he refused to join in Master and Apprentice. I'm not sure where this idea came from that being pressed by a highly skilled Jedi is somehow an anti feat? His training is directly attributed to Obi Wan's skill:
"From Qui-Gon, Obi-Wan gained the skills and the wisdom that would serve him so well as a Jedi and as a military leader during the Clone Wars.'' ~ Source: Age of Republic - Qui-Gon Jinn (2019)
In fact, this speed feat from Qui Gon is better than anything I've seen from Kylo. From his one-shot comic appearance, he deflects blasters from about 8-9 multi directional blasts while also holding a woman with one arm and also not even looking at the blasts. If you look at the first page, its possible that it could have been upwards of 20 blasters given how many guards are present:
Gallery
The only time when Kenobi rivalled him was his rage amp. And he still basically lost. Padawan Kenobi was already quickly on his way to becoming a knight. Without the rage amp, he was getting handled by Maul considering Maul kicked him away.
He does that more than once in the same fight.
Anakin is > Maul, but Kylo doesn't equal Anakin. I've seen the light saber quote you're referring to, and it doesn't scale them to having equal skill. It's a huge reach. Also, I'm sceptical on whether Kylo even has that much of an advantage in the force, considering Maul's hyperdrive feat is arguably better than anything Kylo has done.
YOU ARE SAYING THAT THE SHIT MAUL DID WITH THE HYPERDRIVE IS FAR BETTER THAN A FORCE STORM? OKAY.
Kylo can do that too if he has more force power than the dude who doesn´t know how to die.
that gif is the most impressive feat MAUL has...
@daddyprometheus said:
both are fodder, sheev stomps.
@son_ofthe_force said:
@daddyprometheus said:
both are fodder, sheev stomps.
LMAO yeah that sheev.
@sonofdarkness: @dathvada: @daddyprometheus: @son_ofthe_force:
Maul beat him
You said there was no way Kylo was defeating trained opponents, and i showed you feats of him vs trained opponents: vs KoR, vs TROS Rey (who was already prodigious before training), vs Snoke's Guards, vs Finn (excelled in melee combat by the very text), vs Ren, that was my main point, he has faced trained fighters.
I said that he has not faced many trained force users. Aside from Rey, who is one of the least skilled Jedi we've seen thus far, it's true.
Anyway, citing the fact that he beat Finn is unimpressive. In fact, I'm surprised you actually even brought that up ~ because that is if anything, a low feat for Kylo. Finn was a stormtrooper with basic training, and he got wrecked by a stormtrooper with a lightsaber resistant weapon. Either way, any average Jedi or Sith would utterly destroy Finn. An average Jedi Padawan would destroy Finn. The dude was very vaguely force sensitive and had never held a lightsaber before the events of TFA.
He should be complete fodder to any trained force sensitive. On this note, he was fodderized by a Rathtar in The Force Awakens:
Pre TPM Maul on the other hand, manhandled one so hard that it broke the tree it was attaching itself too:
Even the Knights of Ren are arguably untrained in the ways of the force. In fact, the Star Wars data bank states that one of its members was completely untrained in the dark side of the force:
They're at best, low level inquisotors. To boot, they didn't even have light sabers when facing Kylo. All they had was light saber resistant weapons. I'm not sure why facing featless fodder is supposed to be as impressive as facing two highly trained jedi, one of which who was quickly approaching Knight level and the other who was one of the best duelists in the order.
The only part where i went on a bit about Kylo's backstory was to examine his training, since you think Kylo is an amateur or something, when he's not, he was trained by two of the most knowledgable and powerful Force Weilders, so he is not out of his league against trained Jedi, that's nonsense,
I don't consider him an amateur. I'm just making a point that his showings are not really that impressive from a skill perspective. Much of this is due to the fact that he hasn't faced very skilled force users. ROTJ Luke for example, had only trained for several years, yet was more skilled than the majority of the prequel era jedi. We can discern that from scaling.
Your example doesn't quite hold up. Simply being trained by the best doesn't mean that you can contend with others if the feats don't hold up. Most of the Jedi during Order 66 were trained by Yoda. That didn't stop them from getting fodderized by Knightfall Vader.
Every time we have seen him display less than adequate skill, e.g. against Luke, it's either excused or explained away as "bad choreography", despite the fact that Luke was performing wushu style matrix spins in the same scene.
Kylo can duel and defeat both Jinn and Kenobi,
I disagree. Either would beat him.
On this point, I'm still not sure why being pressed by Qui Gon is an anti feat. He was one of the most skilled Jedi of the TPM order. In addition to this, I posted a speed feat which is far above anything we've seen from Kylo. Casually deflecting 30 or so multi-directional blaster bolts while carrying someone on his back and not even looking is an incredible speed feat, and TPM Maul scales above that Qui Gon in speed.
If you really want to make the training argument (which I personally see as pointless, but I'll indulge), Qui Gon was nearing 50 and had trained since he was a child. To boot, he had been trained by Count Dooku and likely Yoda at times too (as all PT Jedi were). Obi on the other hand, Obi was 25 in TPM and had also trained since a child. He was nearing Jedi Knight level.
Not only have I pointed out that Maul was taking them both on at the same time, but he was even shown to block Obi's strike despite Obi being behind him. This was while he was focused on Qui Gon:
On the topic of force power:
Maul's hyperdrive feat isn't as impressive as Kylo's feats of Force Freezing a Force Sensitive, or his pre-prime Force Storm against the KoR and Ren himself, things Kylo did more casually than Maul's feat, and going by statements and scaling Kylo is above Maul in the Force, there is no question about it imo
How did Kylo do things more casually than Maul did, if he was straining when he performed the force storm? I've seen the feat you're referring to, and he wasn't even aware of how he performed it. He never used it again either, so I doubt it's really that combat applicable. And force freezing what seemed to be an unbalanced Rey doesn't strike me as impressive. Especially considering she is not that skilled.
Maul's hyperdrive feat is much more quantifiable and can be calculated to a higher level.
@frozen said:
You said there was no way Kylo was defeating trained opponents, and i showed you feats of him vs trained opponents: vs KoR, vs TROS Rey (who was already prodigious before training), vs Snoke's Guards, vs Finn (excelled in melee combat by the very text), vs Ren, that was my main point, he has faced trained fighters.
I said that he has not faced many trained force users. Aside from Rey, who is one of the least skilled Jedi we've seen thus far, it's true.
Anyway, citing the fact that he beat Finn is unimpressive. In fact, I'm surprised you actually even brought that up ~ because that is if anything, a low feat for Kylo. Finn was a stormtrooper with basic training, and he got wrecked by a stormtrooper with a lightsaber resistant weapon. Either way, any average Jedi or Sith would utterly destroy Finn. An average Jedi Padawan would destroy Finn. The dude was very vaguely force sensitive and had never held a lightsaber before the events of TFA.
He should be complete fodder to any trained force sensitive. On this note, he was fodderized by a Rathtar in The Force Awakens:
Pre TPM Maul on the other hand, manhandled one so hard that it broke the tree it was attaching itself too:
Even the Knights of Ren are arguably untrained in the ways of the force. In fact, the Star Wars data bank states that one of its members was completely untrained in the dark side of the force:
They're at best, low level inquisotors. To boot, they didn't even have light sabers when facing Kylo. All they had was light saber resistant weapons. I'm not sure why facing featless fodder is supposed to be as impressive as facing two highly trained jedi, one of which who was quickly approaching Knight level and the other who was one of the best duelists in the order.
The only part where i went on a bit about Kylo's backstory was to examine his training, since you think Kylo is an amateur or something, when he's not, he was trained by two of the most knowledgable and powerful Force Weilders, so he is not out of his league against trained Jedi, that's nonsense,
I don't consider him an amateur. I'm just making a point that his showings are not really that impressive from a skill perspective. Much of this is due to the fact that he hasn't faced very skilled force users. ROTJ Luke for example, had only trained for several years, yet was more skilled than the majority of the prequel era jedi. We can discern that from scaling.
Your example doesn't quite hold up. Simply being trained by the best doesn't mean that you can contend with others if the feats don't hold up. Most of the Jedi during Order 66 were trained by Yoda. That didn't stop them from getting fodderized by Knightfall Vader.
Every time we have seen him display less than adequate skill, e.g. against Luke, it's either excused or explained away as "bad choreography", despite the fact that Luke was performing wushu style matrix spins in the same scene.
Kylo can duel and defeat both Jinn and Kenobi,
I disagree. Either would beat him.
On this point, I'm still not sure why being pressed by Qui Gon is an anti feat. He was one of the most skilled Jedi of the TPM order. In addition to this, I posted a speed feat which is far above anything we've seen from Kylo. Casually deflecting 30 or so multi-directional blaster bolts while carrying someone on his back and not even looking is an incredible speed feat, and TPM Maul scales above that Qui Gon in speed.
If you really want to make the training argument (which I personally see as pointless, but I'll indulge), Qui Gon was nearing 50 and had trained since he was a child. To boot, he had been trained by Count Dooku and likely Yoda at times too (as all PT Jedi were). Obi on the other hand, Obi was 25 in TPM and had also trained since a child. He was nearing Jedi Knight level.
Not only have I pointed out that Maul was taking them both on at the same time, but he was even shown to block Obi's strike despite Obi being behind him. This was while he was focused on Qui Gon:
On the topic of force power:
Maul's hyperdrive feat isn't as impressive as Kylo's feats of Force Freezing a Force Sensitive, or his pre-prime Force Storm against the KoR and Ren himself, things Kylo did more casually than Maul's feat, and going by statements and scaling Kylo is above Maul in the Force, there is no question about it imo
How did Kylo do things more casually than Maul did, if he was straining when he performed the force storm? I've seen the feat you're referring to, and he wasn't even aware of how he performed it. He never used it again either, so I doubt it's really that combat applicable. And force freezing what seemed to be an unbalanced Rey doesn't strike me as impressive. Especially considering she is not that skilled.
Maul's hyperdrive feat is much more quantifiable and can be calculated to a higher level.
Kylo did not used the storm in the movies because the comic came after episode 9, but if he can do the force storm with 15 years i think he can do it with 30 and in his prime. Also Kylo fights using advance Djem so, niiman, shii-cho and knows ataru, so he knows the posibly moves from jinn and his style is perfect to counter both padawan and apprentice, also he has more physical feats than those two and more force power being a better user of the dark side than maul was.
@sheevsmacker said:
lol no, get out.
OT: Sheev losing to Maul and Sheev >>>>>> Ren of Kylo
@w4nkdestroyer you have quote for delete scene here being canon or no ?
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