Kylo Ren is from Episode VIII.
Darth Maul is from Episode I.
1.Raund Lightsaber abilities
2.Raund Force abilities
3.Raund All out
@kgb725: lol it's star wars, I'm not looking for realism in a lightsaber duel, and I'm not looking for a lightsaber battle that looks like two normal dudes swinging light sticks at each other, I'm looking for an intense battle between two greatly enhanced, swift, and acrobatic, unrealistic characters.
@phillip33: I thought it was fine, but I feel it's overblown and I don't see how people can gauge Rey and Kylo to other characters just from that alone.
Maybe I'm missing something, but I see from some posters that they can take on some very established characters just because of that scene...meanwhile I'm just sitting here like
"??? How are you gauging this exactly?"
@paragonnate: How are they pointless ? They're just more realistic instead of over the top
I guess it's different lightsabers strokes for different folks. But I would be one of the ones who like it. Just because it's more realistic doesnt mean the techniques/choreo/feats you're seeing are from a group of random guys who are fighting with sticks. OBVIOUSLY, the fight you're seeing is from "trained/competent combatants", otherwise say two of your random friends could never win against 8 other guys determined to beat them up.
Rey's high-guard against 3 Praetorian Guards:
Kylo's overpowers 3 Praetorian Guards:
Kylo's Crossguard used to full effect:
Rey's 3rd kill:
Rey in a grapple:
Rey out of grapple:
Along with the added realism, also comes with the grittiness and savagery of killing people in close quarters.
Think of realistic fighting scenes from Gladiator / Kingdom of Heaven - but with lightsabers!
Don’t know if this thread has died already or not, but from what I understand a lot of the conclusions here may be a little misled. It’s important to remain objective in this kind of debate and remember that any case you make has to be on a grounded basis. As someone who highly appreciates the fighting styles from both trilogies and both characters, here’s my take—
People misperceive the lackluster element of the sequels’ saber scenes (even as of TLJ) as unimpressive and incomparable to the prequels. You have to bear in mind that, in modern Star Wars cinema, there are more realistic revisions at work than ever before. If the prequels were reshot with the current aesthetic, a lot of its theatrics (which largely come from the Kung Fu elements clearly mixed in, particularly with TPM) would be reduced in favor of a more tangible impact. Lightsabers have always been a work-in-progress, changing from fencing utilities (ANH) to heavier energy swords (ESB-ROTJ) to essentially weightless lasers with ignition handles (prequels). A lot of this is because the writers—primarily George—have always had a thing for making tweaks wherever they can and using Star Wars to test new waters. As of the sequels, their designs have been done the most justice in terms of realistic presentation. The actors are basically holding advanced SaberForge weapons rather than sticks that would at best sting if they hit you. With any luck we’ll see Maul’s skills with a more realistic portrayal in Solo II.
Now, to evaluate the characters themselves—
(For TPM Maul, I don’t plan on using any references from the novel seeing as a lot of its background has been retconned and it’s sheer madness whenever I find an excerpt in which a combatant can strike, say, eighteen times in a single second.) It goes without saying that he’s a refined practitioner of martial arts and probably an even more proficient swordsman. Then again—in TPM he’s going against a tiring old man and a hotheaded novice, both of which aren’t making enough use of conventional swings and haven’t engaged anyone in an actual serious life-or-death lightsaber duel ever. All three of them are fixated on wearing their opponent down through sheer, almost mindless aggression. They also kick each other around in ways that are ridiculously simple. To be specific—
•One of Obi-Wan’s first swings after jumping over Maul’s head in the hangar was a complete miss.
•Maul kicks down Qui-Gon in the middle of a two-sided barrage near the generator room’s doors. Maybe Jinn wasn’t really paying attention but he definitely could’ve lobbed his foot off right then. Right after that happens, Obi-Wan goes for an aggressive spin-swing from the opposite direction that gives Maul perfect time to leap away.
•When the doors open, Kenobi’s too busy twirling his saber around to stop himself from getting kicked in the head.
•Maul gets backhanded twice in the face by Jinn even though he’s in a perfect position to run him through with his saber right then, seeing as the Jedi made no effort to properly defend his midsection in close-quarters.
He was against a team whose coordination was so lacking that it might as well have not been practiced at all. Up until Kenobi’s rage-amp, Maul wasn’t in too much trouble seeing as their styles mainly consisted of spamming up close ineffectually against a reasonably well-executed series of parries and defensive maneuvers, getting tired down, and then being backed up—all until defeat. And even in light of this strategy, Maul’s reactions to their hand-to-hand strikes were unexpectedly poor, considering how much more learned he seemed to be.
His stamina, regardless of the brief rest break all three combatants took, is impeccable—he had fought at a steadily increasing pace for about three to four minutes total. His footwork and body motion are also very well executed, and compensate for the fact that a saberstaff is a much harder weapon to use than a regular saber.
Lastly, he doesn’t act mindfully enough during combat—he gets high off the thrill of doing battle with Jedi and doesn’t seem to know how to temper his eagerness, which probably causes him to strike just for the sake of aggressive contact even if it’s without purchase. Against the likes of rage-focus Kenobi this has shown to result in dire consequences, such as his weapon getting cut in two.
Ren is a distinctive fighter in that he’s highly unorthodox and effective. The circumstances in the TFA duel did him no favors and he fared much better than many people gave him credit for. The misconception of his dueling ability being outright amateurish doesn’t seem to have cleared up all that much even after TLJ, a movie in which he’s shown to possess a more wise and resilient fighting form.
Ren was sturdily finessing a team (consistently three at a time) whose coordination was more formidable and whose training was more diverse, given their use of pikes and lightwhips. They made use of real tactics such as circling their enemy, timing their hits, striking from different angles simultaneously, sacrificing themselves so their comrade would have an opening, etc. Their heavy armor was also resistant to glancing hits from sabers. The best response against this kind of force lies in resilience and ingenuity.
Ren maintains an imposing, lethal posture throughout the fight. Despite the fact that he is mainly flat-footed, he does well at maintaining his balance and accomplishing a multitude of different things such as:
•Staggering an aggressor away with his sheer muscle
•Dodging and blocking in different directions simultaneously
•Using a saberlock to force open an interval in an enemy’s defenses in which he can concuss them with a solid backhand (even if their face is covered by heavy armor)
His weapon choice is impressive as well, as he has the freeform advantages of a single saber and the extra defense offered by the crossguard, which actually prevented two praetorian guards from stabbing into his midsection and also helped him stagger opponents away in the middle of a lock.
Kylo’s primary weakness in dueling is his lack of larger technique—he is likely unable to execute moves of such complexities as Anakin’s dual-wielding in AOTC. However, he compensates for this by carefully calculating his use of heavy strikes and unprecedented motions. He’s also rarely the first to attack in a duel, usually waiting his opponent out so he can turn their offensive back on them and take advantage of their disruption.
Contrary to popular opinion, Kylo isn’t a flailing novice. He manages to be both crude and unexpected, and has trained against a much more diverse assortment of weaponry. Against Maul, it’d probably play out a bit like Bane and Sirak’s second battle in that the heavier fighter will wait out his more aggressive and acrobatic opponent—except that Maul is less likely to tire so easily and Ren would be quicker to take advantage of any opening he finds.
Maul may outwit and overwhelm his opponent with his technique alone if Ren is pressured for too long. Then again, Ren is more tactical and would likely maintain a reasonable enough distance to keep his composure and make Maul overstep. I’d like to see what happens when Ren backhands Maul the same way he did the one armored guard.
People are crazy here! Must just not like the new trilogy or something. Kylo in the last Jedi was a very skilled lightsaber duelist and also powerful in the force. Neither qui gon or obi wan are as physically strong as kylo. Kylo also becomes bloodlusted quite easily, I don’t think he ever fights not bloodlusted to be totally honest. Either way, Kylo’s physical strength and force abilities are far beyond what mall offers in ep. 1.
Round 1- Maul
Round 2- Kylo
Round 3- Kylo
The prequels swordplay and choreography wasn't over the top just to be flashy, the goal behind it being that fast paced was to as convincingly as possible on film display the Jedi were skilled and powerful enough to actually make carrying around swords essentially viable in a technologically advanced fantasy. As for acrobatics Jedi ofc aren't restricted to a normal human's agility so I see little reason to try and bash them utilizing it, especially when it's cool as hell. Duel of the Fates anyone?
And don't try to attack a prequel scene for its fight choreography....that scene where Rey and Kylo take on Darth Gollum's Winkie Guard is so bad the guards are literally fighting each other, no I'm serious.
I honestly can't take anyone seriously who tries to put those hilarious Disney fights on equal or superior footing to the Prequel masterpieces. The OT fights as well are miles better and I'm decidedly with George on how they compare to 1, 2, and 3.
Jedi in their prime>Solo's adopted child vs a non force sensitive janitor and some girl who both pick up a lightsaber for 1st time and go at it.
Maul slaughters in his sleep, or can he not replicate Rey tagging Ren like what 4 times the first time she ever picks up a lightsaber? Oh and the janitor also nailed him if irc, Maul slaughters.
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