Kylo Ren & Rey vs Kanan Jarrus & Ahsoka Tano

• Composite Rebels & The Last Padawan comic feats allowed for Kanan.
• TCW & Rebels Composite feats for Ahsoka.
• In character.
• Fight to the Death.
• Battle takes place in Cloud City Carbon Freezing Chamber.

Thinking Ahsoka blitzes.

Ahsoka is better than Kylo Ren IMO but I'm uncertain how Rey and Kanan would factor in.

@highaccuser: In the sense that Kanan is irrelevant or in the sense that Rey vs Kanan is an unclear debate? I was tempted to make this a Kyle Ren/Rey vs Kanan/Ezra Bridger thread but then I'd get accused of lowballing Kylo Ren and Rey. Well more than I will be for making this match up.

Rey vs Kanan is unclear. I'm not sure who would win or how useful they would be against the stronger opponents on the other teams. I think replacing Ahsoka with Erza would be unfair.

@highaccuser: I do think Ezra could at least delay Rey long enough for Kylo to beat Ren but I'd be making the debate more difficult for myself if I tried that. This should be at least fair to both those who think Kylo Ren is impressive and those that feel wanting out of what Kylo has done.

@lvenger: Are we allowed to use feats of when Ahsoka 'went' to the dark side?

@citizensentry: Probably not but did Ahsoka do anything impressive when she went to the Dark Side? Obi Wan and Anakin were clearly holding back massively trying not to hurt Ahsoka in their duel so that's not an impressive feat.

Honestly I see no reason for Ahsoka as of now not to solo. Her force TK is stronger than Kylo's, and she is skilled enough as a duelist to beat both at the same time.

While it wasn't impressive i was thinking more of a mentality "feat" since she didn't hold back against people who had basically been her best friends.

Might tag some users to liven the debate up though this is getting more traffic than I thought it would.

Bump.

If its clones ahsoka she can beat ren and kanan i think can best rey.

If its rebels ahsoka she solos.

It could be at least argued that they weren't able to disarm her.

As for the battle Ahsoka dominates, but kylo might have a force advantage still (not caught up on rebels) so she might not just completely rip through him. Eh......Kanan stalemated an inquisitor and completely restrained him with TK, thats about all I have for him.....

@cosmic_lantern: (Rebels) Ashoka recently dominated 2 Inquisitors.

Team 2 every time...

This. The feat is great as Ahsoka disarmed Anakin of his saber, and he failed to do the same against her. Anakin also tried Force on her to no avail, and freaked out asking obi what to do. They could not Incap or KO her. Thats why its a good feat. Holding back or not. This was also Season 3 IIRC well before her current prime.

Im aware of this, sabers it's no contest but I think he could at least stall her with TK.

@i_like_swords@dccomicsrule2011@shootingnova@wollfmyth209 Any of you guys have opinions on this particular match up?

Either of team 2 solos, easily. Rey is an untrained force sensitive who has used a lightsaber once in her entire life, and doesnt even know what the Force is or how it can be used. This is a stupid mismatch.

We don't know how an uninjured, unhindered Kylo stacks up to duelists of other eras. Making a judgement, especially one of him getting stomped because hurdur reasons is wishful thinking at this point.

I mean, I can understand people whining about the no-training, even though it's something most prodigious Force users never have a problem with (Anakin, Luke, Savage Opress, etc), but really? She doesn't know what the Force is or how to use it? Is that how she, without the all-important formal training that only the fans of Star Wars seem to care about (much less the writers themselves, lol), managed to invade Kylo's mind in response to him penetrating hers, and successfully mind trick a First Order trooper? Is that how she received a calling and Force Vision from Anakin's lightsaber just by being near it? Is that why she quite literally says "The Force", and then closes her eyes to focus on it at the climax of her duel with Kylo? Because she doesn't know what it is or how to use it?

Honestly, I'm curious; did you watch the movie? It really doesn't seem like it.

Team 1. Kylo can beat either, and Rey can contend with either.

@i_like_swords: Can you really say Anakin, Luke and Savage had no training? Cause they at least had training before they went off to fight the big bad dude in lightsaber combat.

I was watching Screen Junkies, and even they called her the biggest Mary Sue of all the SW movies lmao. Its true. Prodigious force ability for Anakin and Luke still made them train and learn to be effective. ESB Luke could not even handle two Magna Gaurds. He was prodigious though lol. Rey is not even a Chosen One prophecy character, and just has Skywalker blood but is easily seemingly ROTJ Luke with no training. Only so much writer laziness and plot device can be shoved down ones throat mate.

Exactly.

Can i get some of what your smoking? sounds like good shit.

@sirfizzwhizz: PRE-ESB LUKE FIZZ! PRE-ESB LUKE! ESB Luke didn't fight the Magnaguards. Post ANH Luke did.

ANH till ESB Luke is the same to me. Luke had what, 1 week training with Yoda before running off? Hardly a difference.

Also this was a good article on "Mary Sue" Rey.

http://www.bloombergview.com/articles/2015-12-29/-the-force-awakens-has-a-perfection-problem

Seems the only debaters on here who refuse to see how Plot Device empowered Rey is Wolfmyth and ILS :/

@sirfizzwhizz: There is a difference. :/ We don't know how long he had training with Yoda, but it was certainly enough for him to know how to use a lightsaber properly and The Force.

Anakin had Knight-level training to take on Dooku the first time they fought, and he did somewhat well but Dooku dispatched him easily, as per Ultimate Star Wars and the grin on Dooku's face. Luke had incomplete training (which actually pales in comparison to Anakin's) and posed Vader some issues, even chipped his armor, and was taken out shortly after. Savage was non-Force sensitive all his life and only had Nightbrother training, which while substantial was nothing compared to the growth in power he had after just a few weeks of being Dooku's apprentice.

Some had years of training, some had weeks. The point is they all managed to perform impossibly well given their conditions.

Now Rey had far less training than them (though as SW.com notes, she became a gifted warrior on her own before the film even starts), and she was also facing an inferior opponent to Vader or Dooku in the form of Kylo Ren. She also had the benefit of Kylo suffering greatly from his physical wounds and his mental state (he even had to take a break out of his fight with Finn after flooring him because of his wound). Add to that Kylo had to fight two opponents and sustained an injury from Finn, mix in the gradual honing of her Force abilities throughout the film and the obvious epiphany she has at the end when she focuses in on the Force.. and I see no inconsistency. It's smaller scale, we're not dealing with Palpatine's apprentices or anything, but it makes perfect sense. Rey is a prodigy and her opponent was suffering heavily. There is little more to it than that. That's why saying Kanan or Ahsoka stomps is jumping the gun. It's based on little more than wishful thinking.

Not even entertaining Fizz at this point. Dude has spent the last week or two of his life making TFA bait threads because of how upset he is at the complex characterization.

Me and Wollf are also apparently the only people who have read into the material and are thus worth our salt in a debate. RandomDudeMcLessThan500Posts who just got back from the movie theatre and is desperate to dribble his opinion on how much formal training matters in Star Wars isn't someone I particularly care to listen to. If that's who you put your stock into as a debater then.. have fun being with the majority.

@i_like_swords: Right but just saying, you said that they didn't really have any training. :P Eh gifted warrior?...I recall she struggled with those 2 guys on Jakku a lil bit, but still took em out. /Shrug

@i_like_swords:

Your clearly in the minority, and I am good with that :)

http://www.bloombergview.com/articles/2015-12-29/-the-force-awakens-has-a-perfection-problem

Discussing best character in the film. "No one picked Mary Sue." lmao

Seems many movie critics notice her BS perfection unlike Luke and Anakin.

Those muggers were League of Assassine man.

@sirfizzwhizz:

Your clearly in the minority, and I am good with that :)

You're good with being repeatedly thrashed in these TFA threads (to the point you resort to linking to movie critics, who have no understanding of how the mechanics of the Star Wars universe operate and judge the movie solely as a movie) and not being able to form an opinion that can stand on it's own feet? I mean, that's kind of pathetic, but cool.

Seems many movie critics notice her BS perfection unlike Luke and Anakin.

That's nice? Let me know when they have any debating credentials or an actual argument to present. Rey being able to edge out an extremely injured and worn out Kylo after having an epiphany in the Force is right on-track with Luke smashing Vader to dust after a few years of makeshift training, or Anakin coming close to being the strongest Jedi of his era during his twenties. Smaller scale, same proportion. It's not rocket science. Run along now, the big boys want to keep having an actual discussion.

Are you really trying that hard to nitpick my post? Lmao. When I said "no training" it was in reference to Rey, I brought the other three up as examples of Force prodigies with little training.

Yes, gifted warrior. You need to be a gifted warrior to be a teenage scavenger and have the fighting capability to knock out two mercenaries trying to ambush you. You really can't argue with the Star Wars website so let's leave it at that.

Not to mention, Finn is in the top 1% of the First Order's stormtroopers, who are super-soldiers trained from birth in all manners of combat to the point they are now superior to their predecessors. And he was utterly outclassed by Kylo despite Kylo's injuries. If you really think training matters compared to Force affinity when the guy with elite training from brith got thrashed by the same opponent the Force prodigy ended up beating, I'd say you have no idea what you're talking about.

@i_like_swords: Well I didn't know! You had them all in the same post! Though I doubt you can say Anakin had little training since he started at like 9 at the Jedi Temple.

Did I say that training matters compared to Force affinity? Jeez Swords, all I asked was about you saying the other 3 had no training, but you said that was for Rey not for them.

@i_like_swords:

You're good with being repeatedly thrashed in these TFA threads (to the point you resort to linking to movie critics, who have no understanding of how the mechanics of the Star Wars universe operate and judge the movie solely as a movie) and not being able to form an opinion that can stand on it's own feet? I mean, that's kind of pathetic, but cool.

So what your saying is, "Yes, i am clearly in the minority on my views of Kylo, and Rey, but I am the one winning the arguments because I said so."

Ok.

That's nice? Let me know when they have any debating credentials or an actual argument to present.

Who says they have no credentials? Did you go to fudging Star Wars College and get a degree? Or simply debating your point of view on inconsistent fictional lore? Wow, ILS. Wow.

Either way, you do not have to be heavy on the lore, though the lore states your wrong as Wolfrazer blatantly pointed out other examples like Rey, to see through blatant lazy writing and plot device being used heavily. She is a Mary Sue. Deal with it.

Rey being able to edge out an extremely injured and worn out Kylo after having an epiphany in the Force is right on-track with Luke smashing Vader to dust after a few years of makeshift training, or Anakin coming close to being the strongest Jedi of his era during his twenties. Smaller scale, same proportion. It's not rocket science. Run along now, the big boys want to keep having an actual discussion.

Anakin had many years of training, and still had issues fighting Ventress, Barriss, and even Bounty Hunters with the Senate ordeal. He did not perfectly match everyone even with Jedi Training for years under his belt. Luke still suffered major losses, and showed major flaws even though he had more training than Rey. Also the Ultimate Star Wars guide states Vader decimated Luke, though on screen Vader is not that good anyway, nor is Luke. Still, at least Luke had training and advice from Ben Kenobi and Yoda. Mary Sue, I mean Rey had force guidance from.... Solo?!?

Yeah, she was BS and JJ took so much liberty with "Because of Reasons" with her character development.

Now you need to either retire from Star Wars threads, or get back on the ball.

I'm not convinced Kylo has a lot of training in lightsaber combat to be honest, the very fact that Kylo has a makeshift lightsaber suggests nobody has ever taught him how to make one, if nobody has ever taught him how to make one, it's highly unlikely anybody has formally shown him how to use one to great effect, though he likely does have some training and skill, at least compared to the other Padawans of Luke. It's clear from TFA that Snoke has withheld much from him until he was certain his allegiance was to the dark side/him. The counter-argument would be that he took out the Jedi Order, but it's unlikely that they had much training either, since I'm assuming they too were young during the massacre.

All of this is speculation really, since so much is unknown to us right now, Kylo is just a poor choice for most battles right now.

Luke Skywalker was blocking blaster bolts blindfolded after a couple of tries and went from shooting Wamp rats to outdoing the best fighter pilots in the Galaxy, and he's just one example, Anakin was 10 years old outdoing veteran podracers, Savage Opress was a skilled warrior with no training in the Force, he has a few days training and next thing you know he is taking out fully trained Jedi Masters. Is it really so unlikely that Rey who was established as skilled in melee combat and as athletic/agile could take out a heavily wounded Kylo Ren who was also in heavy conflict having just killed his father once she gave herself to the Force?

I'm not familiar with Rebels yet, but I'm well into TCW now and Ahsoka does have better feats than either of team 2 so far and I saw the clip of her vs two inquisitors.

Tano/kanan FTW

Rey did have training. She was self trained, but she still trained. In fact, The Force Awakens Visual Dictionary goes on to say that she perfected sequences with the staff weapon and that she can transfer that skill to any melee weapon:

As for Finn, he was in the top 1% of First Order Stormtroopers. And the best of these Stormtroopers were trained to fight Jedi. Finn still managed to hold a winning streak over virtually all who challenged him:

The person who remained longest on the floor was Zeroes. He went four bouts without falling, and then FN-2187 was called and ended his run. The force pike gave Zeroes reach and he went in strong, but FN-2187 had his shield and he quickly discovered that, when he angled it properly, he could redirect a jab in almost any direction he wanted. Zeroes tried attacking four times-low, low, low, and then high, driving the pike with both hands toward FN-2187's heart.

FN-2187 blocked, angling the shield to his right so that when the blow glanced off, Zeroes was off balance and overextended. FN-2187 spun on his toes in the opposite direction, brought the mace in his other hand around low, and caught Zeroes just above the knee, sending him sprawling.

"Win!" shouted one of the instructors.

It was the start of FN-2187's own streak, however. The next trainee to go at him was from a different cadre, the FO group, also armed with a mace and shield. The fight lasted three seconds. FN-2187 feinted an overhead blow with the mace, and when his opponent brought his shield up to parry it, he hit him instead with his own shield and knocked him flat.

His next two opponents were also FO designations, another with a force pike and one with a shield and sword. The second of those took the longest, almost a full minute, before FN-2187 managed to knock away his opponent's shield, and then it was a simple matter of waiting for an opening and striking at the right time.

Then it was Nines's turn, with his vibro-axe and shield, and if FN-2187 had thought Zeroes was angry when he'd lost, Nines seemed to start out that way. Nines began with a swipe straight at FN-2187's head, and the next thing 2187 knew Nines had rammed into him, body to body, their armor clattering as he was pushed back along the training floor. It took all his strength to keep his feet, to keep from giving Nines another opening with his axe, and finally FN-2187 dropped his shield altogether and used his free hand to take control of Nines's wrist. They spun in place, and FN-2187 slammed his shoulder into Nines's chest, sending him off balance long enough to create distance between them. Before he could recover his discarded shield, though, Nines was launching at him again, and FN-2187 was using his mace with both hands, knocking away Nines's attacks as quickly as they came. He could feel his heart pounding inside the armor, the echo of his breathing as it grew labored. The thought occurred to him, unexpected and shocking, that Nines thought this was real, not an exercise, not training.

The vibro-axe fell again, slashing at his arm, and FN-2187 skipped back. The two of them began to circle. Nines feinted with the axe, then swung the shield and nearly caught him in the side, but FN-2187 managed to get the mace up to parry just in time. He saw the follow-up coming before Nines launched it, knew the axe was slashing in again, and that time, instead of stepping away from it, FN-2187 stepped forward and under Nines's guard. The mace was in the wrong position, its heavy head toward the floor, so FN-2187 used its pommel instead, smashing it into Nines's helmet. The other trooper went sailing onto his back. He laid still, dazed for a moment.

Slip lunged, and FN-2187 blocked him easily, sending the tip of the pike off his shield and to the left. Slip followed, unable to stop himself in time, almost at full reach and obviously off balance. FN-2187 stepped back, giving him room to recover. Again he glanced at the instructors. One of them, he thought, was frowning.

FN-2187 swung his mace in an easy arc, putting no real power behind it, all but telegraphing the move. Slip barely got his parry in place in time and failed entirely to launch a riposte. They circled. Another glance at the instructors, and both were frowning. Slip tried to flip his grip on the pike and made a staff-end swing that FN-2187 ducked before he'd even thought about it. He had another opening and almost took it but for some reason found himself unable to.

It struck him, then, that if he were to lose, Slip would be left to face whoever went next.

It struck him, too, that whoever Slip fought next wouldn't care that he was already hurt, that another injury might be too much for him.

You're one of us, FN-2187 thought.

He attacked with the mace, an upswing that Slip blocked but without any strength behind it. The parry blew through Slip's guard and sent his hands and the pike high, almost over his head, leaving his middle exposed. FN-2187 stepped forward, leading with his shield, pressing rather than striking while at the same time bringing his left leg forward, behind Slip's right. It took almost no discernible pressure; suddenly, Slip was on his back and FN-2187 was standing over him, and the instructor was shouting.

"Win!"

Source: Before the Awakening

Just thought I'd shed a little light on Finn and Rey.

@i_like_swords@wolfrazer

@rogueshadow: Anakin or Luke werent beating trained sith in duels before they had their own. That was my point. Wounded or not, realistically Kylo should've easily dispatched a sanitation worker posing as a stormtrooper, and some untrained force-sensitive. Snoke supposedly trained Kylo himself, so its not like we can assume Kylo hadnt fought another force-user before that, and someone much more powerful than Rey.

That was my major gripe with the movie, making Kylo look pathetic, and Mary Rey looking like Mary Rey.

@wollfmyth209: That seems awfully convenient for Rey that with a staff. But anyway where is it said that the FO are trained to fight Jedi? What Jedi exactly?

Also again I'm not harping on Rey or Finn, my post was just merely asking Swords about Luke, Anakin and Savage. Given in his same sentence he said no training, but he was referring to Rey not them, but I got confused on that.

@wolfrazer: It shows she's adaptable, and skilled. Also:

The instructors demonstrated the use of each weapon, the vibro-axes and shock staffs and force pikes and resonator maces, elaborating at length on the respective strengths and weaknesses of each and when and how to employ them to best effect. They explained the composite alloys used to make the weapons, how some of the equipment was strong enough to block even a lightsaber. FN-2187 wondered about that-not whether it was true but whether or not they would ever be expected to fight someone who used a lightsaber. According to the First Order, the Jedi were extinct.

Source: Before the Awakening

The top of the First Order were trained to use lightsaber resistant weapons, in order to combat wielders of such weapons and/or lightsabers. Clearly, that means they have some form of training against Jedi. There's not much other reason to train with lightsaber resistant weapons, unless the First Order was sure they'd eventually run into lightsaber wielders such as the Jedi. And this is proven true seeing as how Kylo and Snoke want to execute all of them, and Luke escaped their purge. And it's possible that Luke wasn't the only one.

Finn was a prodigious Storm-Trooper, in the top 1% of Storm-Troopers and bested Zeroes in melee combat, who was whooping everybody else. @wollfmyth209 pretty just confirmed what I suspected which is that Rey's skills with her staff, combined with her Force sensitivity transferred to her use of the lightsaber against a heavily wounded Kylo Ren.

Rey's fighting skill with her staff translates well into other short ranged melee weapons, including those she has never wielded before."

They are flat out spelling it out for us, it doesn't get more blatant than that, except maybe the movie repeatedly showing us how devastating Chewie's bowcaster is.

@wollfmyth209: Eh just because it's made to doesn't really mean they were trained to fight them. I mean even Finn wondered if they were expecting to fight Jedi or not, but /shrug eh....I guess? Seems kinda vague to me. Buuut /shrug I guess it just seems strange that they take Stormtroopers and just have them be trained enough for Jedi.

Sure Top Stormtroopers, but still. So I guess the FO doesn't have any Special Forces then? Is my question now. Then again these would be the Jedi of Luke's Order soo....point taken I guess.

So is TR-8R the greatest Stromtrooper warrior in the world then?

Maybe he was a distant relative to Chuck Norris.

Not to mention Kylo should've also easily deflected that bowcaster bolt, or dodged it, or froze it. But no, gonna take it in the stomach like a bitch. Then get bested in lightsaber combat by another bitch.

Ashoka solos low diff, mismatch