She beats Book 1 Katara, especially Pre-Pakku training. Book 2 Katara (Serpent's Pass, mid-book 2) showed greater scale and control with said scale than Kya did, so I'd say Kya stops at 3.
Edit: With the edit she could stop at 4 depending on location.
Imo Kya is slightly above katara in R3 because of her experience, cause even after training it's not like katara was Master pakku level, maybe stops at 4 or even clears
@joker5000: And Zaheer too. She not only held her own but landed solid hits against either of them.
I'm surprised that many think she stops at 2, I've designed this gauntlet because I think arguments can be made for her stopping between 2 and 4. I think 3 especially has a lot of discussion potential.
Kya is not losing to an untrained katara, I pretty much consider her and end of book 1 Katara to be around the same level (I might give Kya a slight edge overall if it's not in the poles), Anything from Early Book 2 is when Katara clearly shows she's better, so kya definitely stops at 4.
@scarlet_wiccan: @ashconwell: why do you guys think Kya would lose to an untrained Katara?, I could get if it's someone with an inferior fighting style like tonraq which arguments could be made that Katara can exploit her better style (even then still very debatable) but Kya basically has the same fighting style as her and is actually a master with it unlike Katara at that time.
Off the basis of her experience and getting trained by Katara herself, she should at very least make it to R3, if not clears. Not seeing any version of Book 1 Katara performing as well as Kya did against Zaheer for example.
Why do people keep saying Kya performed good against Zaheer? She landed a few hits when he wasn't even trying to fight back. The moment he decided to actually fight her he stomped her. Twise. With two one-shots. And she was nowhere close to putting him into danger.
Zaheer blocked all of Kya’s offense and left the temple without even trying to fight back, then she took him down when he was flying away on his glider. When it turned into an actual fight she got borderline statued and one shotted even with help, that fight wasn’t a competition at all…
Kya’s fight with Ming is enough to say she can win the first 2 rounds comfortably though, she can beat 3 if she plays her cards right, hard stops at 4.
@scarlet_wiccan: @ashconwell: why do you guys think Kya would lose to an untrained Katara?, I could get if it's someone with an inferior fighting style like tonraq which arguments could be made that Katara can exploit her better style (even then still very debatable) but Kya basically has the same fighting style as her and is actually a master with it unlike Katara at that time.
Kya just never impressed me, I guess she could beat pre-training Katara
Why do people keep saying Kya performed good against Zaheer? She landed a few hits when he wasn't even trying to fight back. The moment he decided to actually fight her he stomped her. Twise. With two one-shots. And she was nowhere close to putting him into danger.
Kya was clearly a better bender than zaheer, the outcome of the fight (which was kinda OOC for Kya) was never a reflection of their prowess as benders, Kya overpowered Zaheer in clashes and displayed good skill and environment manipulation from the brief showing we saw from her, she was able to switch between different moves converting her mobility to attack, showed good scale, impressive agility, durability and cool moves, Zaheer had to use his speed advantage to get her the first time because he couldn't outclass her bending head on and the second time was over a lousy move that felt OOC but even then was still with his speed and not because he is a better Bender. None of the other mid tiers could pull this off, Mako, Tonraq, The White lotus, The dai li etc all got outclassed by Zaheer easily.
If that was true he wouldn't one-shot her twise in a row. If you want to see a fight between Zaheer and someone who is a better bender watch his fight against Tenzin.
Kya overpowered Zaheer in clashes
When did that happen? His cover got blown and he retreated, without even trying to attack her. Literally ALL she managed to do to him is to grab and ground him - while he wasn't fighting her, and freeze his foot - which he broke free from on physicals. She had a legit chance to actually kill him if she went for a different move when she grabbed him (she also could've killed Ming Hua if she went for the kill instead of just washing her off the cliff), but their plot armor is another topic, and it wouldn't change the fact that she didn't manage to beat him in an actual fight, it still was attacking someone who's running away and not fighting back.
displayed good skill and environment manipulation from the brief showing we saw from her
Eh. She's definitely not fodder level waterbender, but pretty much every significant waterbending character we've seen in both shows demonstrated better skill. And since when flash-freezing is a good environmental manipulation? It's waterbending 101.
she was able to switch between different moves converting her mobility to attack
As every notable waterbender have. Zaheer did that too quite a few times through out the season. Except against Kya he didn't need to do that, he stayed in one spot - not using his most valuable asset in the form of mobility - and still beat her twise.
showed good scale, impressive agility, durability and cool moves
Scale, agility and "cool moves" are debatable, but sure, i can agree with that. But durability? He knocked her out with both his attacks. She showed far better durability against Ming Hua, but in this fight she doesn't have a single good durability feat.
Zaheer had to use his speed advantage to get her the first time because he couldn't outclass her bending head on
Um... according to what? And what kind of logic is this? Who would try to brute force their way through a fight if they can simply outspeed their opponent and deal with them with less effort?
the second time was over a lousy move that felt OOC
What about it is out of character for her? Throwing all of her water at her opponent at once is something she did against Ming Hua as well. If anything it's consistency.
None of the other mid tiers could pull this off, Mako, Tonraq, The White lotus, The dai li etc all got outclassed by Zaheer easily
Tonraq straight up stalemated Zaheer in the north pole without using the environment to his full advantage. And at the very least blocked a few of Zaheer's attacks with less water, which is something Kya failed to do. He also didn't get knocked out or one-shotted by him. Dai Li and White Lotus guards are fodder, Mako never fought Zaheer. And what exactly did Kya pull off there? Again, she got stomped, twise. One-shotted. The same way Dai Li and White Lotus guards were. Not saying she's on their level, but people give her way more credit for this fight than she earned. And btw, Zaheer didn't outclass anyone you mentioned, he used his speed to deal with them the same way it was against Kya.
Stops at 4. Before training with Pakku, Katara was more along the lines of Mako/Bolin tier, not good enough to deal with Kya. She got a lot better after training but she was still inexperienced. By the end of Book 2, she was really getting into beast mode, so I'd give it to her by then.
If that was true he wouldn't one-shot her twise in a row. If you want to see a fight between Zaheer and someone who is a better bender watch his fight against Tenzin.
He did not one shot her, the first time he got a hit, she recovered and the second time she hit her head on the wall which knocked her out, not his bending so he didn't one shot anything.
Also this wouldn't take away from the fact that Kya is a better bender, you're ignoring the details of their fight, being a better bender doesn't guarantee a win and having a win doesn't mean you're a better bender, they are different factors which can be gotten from details such as bending strength, combat speed, versatility, mobility, etc which determines a winner based on how they are used by benders and while Zaheer has the advantages in some which made him a better fighter and got the win, Kya also had the advantages in others which showed her as the better bender.
When did that happen? His cover got blown and he retreated, without even trying to attack her.
One would not pay attention to miss it, in their little confrontation, Kya showed better potency in their clash.
In the first part of their clash, where she figures out Zaheer, you can literally see her overpower zaheer as she remains composed and he literally stumbles and almost falls from the force of the attack alone.
This superior bending potency is also maintained as Zaheer is unable to get past her defense and is usually taken back when he tries to take on her bending head on
Kya's water defense no sells that attack from Zaheer.
And all these are actually times Zaheer attempted to fight, this narrative that he didn't try to fight her at all is false as he made multiple attempts to stop her initially but they all failed because she used her water to directly stop them, setting the claim that Zaheer Just can't overpower her.
For comparison, Zaheer has also used the same moves against the likes of Tonraq and was able to overpower him, While he was relatively new to bending, the only people he couldn't overpower with his bending head on was Korra, Tenzin and Kya.
With Kya having a better scale and potency than he does, it's clear she's above him in bending power.
Eh. She's definitely not fodder level waterbender, but pretty much every significant waterbending character we've seen in both shows demonstrated better skill. And since when flash-freezing is a good environmental manipulation? It's waterbending 101.
This is too much of a general statement on no basis, there are named waterbenders like Tonraq, eska, desna, for example who are quite skilled but still do not bend like her, they haven't shown the level of utilizing different waterbending skills with fluidity or control at which she manipulates water in combat, switching between offense and defense or using them both with the same resources.
Flash freezing when Zaheer landed in a pool of water rather than using a direct attack is a great show of her ability to take advantage of the environment when she can, Tonraq couldn't even do that against Zaheer in the north pole.
As every notable waterbender have. Zaheer did that too quite a few times through out the season. Except against Kya he didn't need to do that, he stayed in one spot - not using his most valuable asset in the form of mobility - and still beat her twise.
Every notable waterbender is notable because they did it, just like Kya, I don't see how other notable waterbenders doing it takes away from her skill. Zaheer literally was not a master and did nothing like kya, he was using his combat moves and enhancing it with airbending, while that helped him he's not more skilled than any notable master like Kya. 90% of his moves are literally just airblasts, and then using airboosts etc. Kya was using waterblasts, environmental flash freezing, ice spikes, water rings, water arms, water gimbals, spout attacks, riding waves and converting them to attacks etc and she was doing all these moves that clearly requires mastery seamlessly and with easy transition, it's very clear that Kya is a more skilled bender.
Scale, agility and "cool moves" are debatable, but sure, i can agree with that. But durability? He knocked her out with both his attacks. She showed far better durability against Ming Hua, but in this fight she doesn't have a single good durability feat.
There's nothing debatable about a fact, it's a fact that she showed good scale, impressive agility flipping from a building and switching between moves quickly and we some cool moves and application we haven't seen before so idk what you're trying to argue with this. I durability because of the height she jumped from and how she was able to go on, this wasn't about ming's fight so I didn't include her durability there, this was about her performance against zaheer.
Um... according to what? And what kind of logic is this? Who would try to brute force their way through a fight if they can simply outspeed their opponent and deal with them with less effort?
According to the multiple scenes I posted above, Zaheer quite literally tried to attack her but he couldn't overpower, he won her on the basis of his speed, attacking at a faster rate than she could recover twice, that's exactly what happened in the fights .
Here he blasts her with an air attack after he recovered faster than she could switch attacks and in the other one, he quite literally waits for her to use her shot then he hits her with his quickly after she fired, given her no room to react. Two instances of his combat speed helping him.
What about it is out of character for her? Throwing all of her water at her opponent at once is something she did against Ming Hua as well. If anything it's consistency.
She did not throw all her water against ming hua, water was still remaining in the fountain, so yes its ooc, she fought majority of the battle keeping herself defended, there was no reason that she would need to that.
Tonraq straight up stalemated Zaheer in the north pole without using the environment to his full advantage. And at the very least blocked a few of Zaheer's attacks with less water, which is something Kya failed to do.
Stalemate?, He got beaten twice by Zaheer, and no he didn't.
Zaheer has better physicals, mobility, combat experience, and combat speed which made him a better fighter but Kya has better power, skill, bending experience and versatility which makes her the better bender.
She was recovering long enough for Zaheer to deal with two White Lotus guards. Which, in a 1v1, if he aimed to kill her, would've been more than enough time to finish her off. Either she was really hurt and couldn't re-enter the fight immediately or she blacked out from the attack.
the second time she hit her head on the wall which knocked her out
Because he sent her flying hard enough for her to knock her out on impact. It's basically the prime method of airbenders dealing damage - blasting their opponent into an obstacle.
Also this wouldn't take away from the fact that Kya is a better bender, you're ignoring the details of their fight, being a better bender doesn't guarantee a win and having a win doesn't mean you're a better bender, they are different factors which can be gotten from details such as bending strength, combat speed, versatility, mobility, etc which determines a winner based on how they are used by benders and while Zaheer has the advantages in some which made him a better fighter and got the win, Kya also had the advantages in others which showed her as the better bender
For the "Kya is the better bender" to be a fact you need to explain what you mean by it, and then prove it. All you managed to do so far is to prove that she used more techniques in this fight.
One would not pay attention to miss it, in their little confrontation, Kya showed better potency in their clash
She did not. They both got pushed back from the impact. Zaheer was mid-air, which is why he stumbled upon landing. And she did not compose herself fast enough to use it to her advantage so she wasn't a "winner" of the exchange.
This superior bending potency is also maintained as Zaheer is unable to get past her defense and is usually taken back when he tries to take on her bending head on
Are you misinterpreting these scenes on purpose? In the screenshot you show with this claim Kya literally attacks him, and he cancels her attack. It has absolutely nothing to do with her supposed superior potency or him trying to go through her defense. If anything it shows the opposite.
Her switching from riding a wave into attack is also her attacking him, and him blocking the attack. The fact you interpreted these scenes in that way explains why you rate Kya so high, but they don't change the fact that you're not correct about it. Zaheer attacked her twise. And both attacks were faster than she could react, and took her out of the fight.
And all these are actually times Zaheer attempted to fight
No. All three are actually times when Zaheer effectively defended himself against her attacks.
this narrative that he didn't try to fight her at all is false as he made multiple attempts to stop her initially
Stop her from what? She was on the offensive, he just tried to escape.
For comparison, Zaheer has also used the same moves against the likes of Tonraq and was able to overpower him, While he was relatively new to bending, the only people he couldn't overpower with his bending head on was Korra, Tenzin and Kya
Except he never failed to overpower Kya, and his fight against Tonraq happened in the previous episode. He wasn't significantly more skilled or experienced while fighting Kya.
As he did to Kya. Except Tonraq actually blocked a few of those, unlike Kya.
With Kya having a betterscaleand potency than he does, it's clear she's above him in bending power
Firstly, she never showed better potency. Secondly, Kya never demonstrated anything remotely close to his snowstorm feat, so she doesn't have superior bending scale. And even in the same fight his move against the two guards shows comparable scale to hers.
This is too much of a general statement on no basis, there are named waterbenders like Tonraq, eska, desna, for example who are quite skilled but still do not bend like her, they haven't shown the level of utilizing different waterbending skills with fluidity or control at which she manipulates water in combat, switching between offense and defense or using them both with the same resources
Firstly, them not bending like her means nothing considering she doesn't bend like them either, they have different fighting styles. Secondly, your statement is also general and with no basis. Kya didn't show any good defense against Zaheer. Tonraq and the twins showed a number of techniques she never used, the twins demonstrated by far better precision and scale, Tonraq showed better skill and versatility with water arms, did better against Zaheer with less water on Laghima's Peak, and stalemated him in the north for longer despite using smaller scale than Kya.
Flash freezing when Zaheer landed in a pool of water rather than using a direct attack is a great show of her ability to take advantage of the environment when she can
It's still waterbending 101. And if she went for a direct hit may be she would've landed it.
Tonraq couldn't even do that against Zaheer in the north pole
You're confusing couldn't and didn't. He never attempted and failed. Kya attempted and failed. Tonraq also just in general has better flash-freezing feats.
Every notable waterbender is notable because they did it, just like Kya
Notable benders are notable for a wide variety of reasons. Not just because of one thing that Kya did too.
I don't see how other notable waterbenders doing it takes away from her skill
I don't see how it's relevant if a number of other characters including Zaheer, Tonraq and even the twins (all of which you consider below her) did it too.
Zaheer literally was not a master and did nothing like kya
He beat her twise in one fight. And considering he wasn't a master unlike her only speaks on what kind of a master she is. Zhao was a master too, you know.
he was using his combat moves and enhancing it with airbending, while that helped him he's not more skilled than any notable master like Kya
Again, if he wasn't - he wouldn't beat her twise in one fight.
90% of his moves are literally just airblasts, and then using airboosts etc
The same is true for Tenzin. Your point?
Kya was using waterblasts, environmental flash freezing, ice spikes, water rings, water arms, water gimbals, spout attacks, riding waves and converting them to attacks etc and she was doing all these moves that clearly requires mastery seamlessly and with easy transition
And still failed to do a thing to him after he confronted her. And lost. Quantity is not quality. It doesn't matter how many different techniques you can use, it only matters how many of them you can use effectively.
it's very clear that Kya is a more skilled bender
If bending had nothing to do with combat - may be. As a combative bender Zaheer is still better.
There's nothing debatable about a fact
Sure. The problem is that what you said wasn't a fact.
it's a fact that she showed good scale, impressive agility flipping from a building and switching between moves quickly and we some cool moves and application we haven't seen before so idk what you're trying to argue with this. I durability because of the height she jumped from and how she was able to go on
Aside the fact that "cool moves" just in general is a very subjective claim, other characters of the franchise raised the bar of agility, scale and durability so high that Kya being "good" at those is very debatable. So no, it's not a fact. It's your opinion.
According to the multiple scenes I posted above
Neither of which is true, considering all three of those show Kya attacking him and failing to be effective.
Zaheer quite literally tried to attack her but he couldn't overpower, he won her on the basis of his speed, attacking at a faster rate than she could recover twice, that's exactly what happened in the fights
It's literally the opposite of what exactly happened in the fight. And considering that Zaheer showed himself to be consistently and significantly faster in terms of combat, if what you said was true and those scenes were showing him attacking her - those attacks would've landed the same way his actual attacks did because he attacks faster than she can react.
Herehe blasts her with an air attack after he recovered faster than she could switch attacks
Except it's still wrong. It's her trying to flash-freeze him and failing, after which she attacked him again, and he recovered fast enough to block that attack.
She sent her water at him first, then he turns and blocks it with an airblast from his leg. Watch your own gif frame by frame or something, i have no idea how you can interpret this scene as him trying to attack her.
in theotherone, he quite literally waits for her to use her shot then he hits her with his quickly after she fired, given her no room to react. Two instances of his combat speed helping him
Which only proves again that if those cases where you think he was attacking her were actually him attacking her those attacks would've succeeded.
She did not throw all her water against ming hua, water was still remaining in the fountain, so yes its ooc
Well she didn't throw all of her water at Zaheer either, there was still some in the pond and at her immediate disposal. So again - what exactly is out of character for her? She didn't block Zaheer's attack because it was too fast and powerful, not because she didn't have any water to block it.
Btw this shows that her supposed superior potency is non-existent because his final attack went directly through her attack and still had enough force to yeet her and knock her out against the wall.
she fought majority of the battle keeping herself defended, there was no reason that she would need to that
Except she was never defended, as Zaheer only attacked her twise and both time she didn't defend herself. And even against Ming Hua instead of water-based defense Kya used agility to deal with her attacks, despite there being plenty of water for her to use. So again, nothing out of character. Kya just doesn't seem to be good at defense.
Stalemate?, He got beaten twice by Zaheer, and no he didn't
You're confusing him with Kya. Tonraq took a hit from Zaheer and tanked it. The entire time Ming was freeing P'li they were fighting. And P'li beat Tonraq, not Zaheer.
Zaheer has better physicals, mobility, combat experience, and combat speed which made him a better fighter but Kya has better power, skill, bending experience and versatility which makes her the better bender
Which is irrelevant in a fight against a superior fighter who is good enough bender to deal with your superior bending. Except she didn't demonstrate better skill, she demonstrated more skills. Different things. Her scale is not better either. Neither is her power greater, considering that neither of the instances where you think she blocked his attacks happened, but what did happen is him overpowering her final attack with his own. And her bending experience and versatility didn't help her. Which is not surprising, considering they barely ever matter in a fight. Watch Zuko beating Zhao or Toph stalemating Bumi.
I personally think she stops at 4, because Kya is clearly more masterful and refined than any version of Book 1 Katara, plus she is arguably more powerful if she can summon large bursts of water instantly, as she did against Ming Hua.
That being said, a case can be made for her stopping at 3, depending on how you look at Katara's abilities at the time.
You look at a fight between 2 characters and watch one get one shot and evaded and no diffed by the other but the one who got bullied is better because they blocked some attacks lol
She did not. They both got pushed back from the impact. Zaheer was mid-air, which is why he stumbled upon landing. And she did not compose herself fast enough to use it to her advantage so she wasn't a "winner" of the exchange.
This is a false claim as we have instances to compare it to , Zaheer has done this move other times with no issues, he got pushed back by the force of Kya's attack, Kya was factually better composed and didn't struggle like Zaheer did. also why are you diverting? I am comparing their bending not the outcome of the fight, Zaheer is faster and could reckver quickly for Kya to not be able to take advantage of it, no one is denying that, but the fact remains that Kya's attack was so strong it was able to force Zaheer to stumble when Zaheer would do it without issues in other instances.
Are you misinterpreting these scenes on purpose? In the screenshot you show with this claim Kya literally attacks him, and he cancels her attack. It has absolutely nothing to do with her supposed superior potency or him trying to go through her defense. If anything it shows the opposite.
Look at it again then, Kya was the first to bend bringing water up but Zaheer was definitely the first to attack and she used it to intercept his attacks easily then converted it to a wave she could ride. And it definitely has everything to do with her superior potency because we have seen instances that show otherwise, if Zaheer is more powerful then he would be able to go through the attacks, force them back or disperse them easily like he did against other water attacks.
Even if Zaheer wasn't the first to attack in that scene ( cuz it's not really clear as they both launched simultaneously), this still doesn't take away from the fact that their clashes have never left Kya phased and she even has instances in her favor, showing that Zaheer wasn't ever a threat to her based on the power of his bending attacks alone, so yes I'd say Kya has the better potency.
Her switching from riding a wave into attack is also her attacking him, and him blocking the attack. The fact you interpreted these scenes in that way explains why you rate Kya so high, but they don't change the fact that you're not correct about it. Zaheer attacked her twise. And both attacks were faster than she could react, and took her out of the fight.
Yes she attacks him in this here, I never said otherwise for this scene so I wasn't wrong about anythingI brought up how he was always the one taken aback when he tries to take on her bending regardless of whether he attacks or defend.
Once again, I still don't see why you're bringing up speed and how Zaheer was faster, we all know that, I'm not trying to manipulate the outcome of the battle, Zaheer won, BUT I'm making it clear that it wasn't from bending superiority and Kya actually showed the better bending.
As easily as Kya's attacks.
As he did to Kya. Except Tonraq actually blocked a few of those, unlike Kya.
And now you're just lying, where did Zaheer ever display bending superiority over Kya?, He was literally forcing tonraq to go feets back from his attacks and easily dispersing tonraq's own, he never did anything like that to Kya. Show me where Zaheer overpowered Kya's attack and forced her back?.
Kya never demonstrated anything remotely close to his snowstorm feat
That's was literally done offscreen and it showed Zaheer had to constantly generate air to do it, not one direct show of power, do you even believe what you typed here?. Kya has better scale manipulation instantly than he does.
your statement is also general and with no basis
My statement is on the basis of the fact that Kya has shown to be able to replicate the most of the moves these other waterbenders showed while also displaying other advanced moves, and also showing better use of water considering she can use a relatively smaller source for multiple complex moves, all while doing it in places that are not as abundant as the poles which is where most of the other waterbenders fight took place so yeah, she is more skilled.
You're confusing couldn't and didn't. He never attempted and failed. Kya attempted and failed. Tonraq also just in general has better flash-freezing feats.
Kya did not fail, she literally got him, Tonraq ambushing two fodders and directly freezing them in the poles is not the same thing as Kya taking advantage of the environment instantly against a notable bender like Zaheer in moments and you know that.
Again, if he wasn't - he wouldn't beat her twise in one fight.
So you're going against the show now and trying to argue that Zaheer was an airbending master on the level of notable characters?.
The same is true for Tenzin. Your point?
You cannot be serious about this lol, Tenzin uses advanced moves like airspouts, airwheel, airshields, omnidirectional blasts, twisters, quite literally taught Korra, is canonically a master, did things like Zaheer to and showed better form. Are you really trying to insinuate that tenzin and Zaheer are on the same skill level?. My point is Zaheer uses airbending as an extension of his basic combat skills and has no actual proper airbending training. Kya does and showed more combat suitable moves than he did.
And still failed to do a thing to him after he confronted her. And lost. Quantity is not quality. It doesn't matter how many different techniques you can use, it only matters how many of them you can use effectively.
What is this supposed to mean?, It definitely matters as Kya showed quantity and quality displaying more advanced moves as a waterbender than he did and she used them all effectively i.e for the required purpose which is for combat, Kya's different techniques is what makes her a better master of water than zaheer was for air, Zaheer winning on the basis of his physical advantage such as speed enhanced by airbending doesn't take away from their level of elemental manipulation which was in Kya's favor.
Well she didn't throw all of her water at Zaheer either, there was still some in the pond and at her immediate disposal. So again - what exactly is out of character for her? She didn't block Zaheer's attack because it was too fast and powerful, not because she didn't have any water to block it.
Btw this shows that the nonsense about her supposed superior potency is wrong because his final attack went directly through her attack and still had enough force to yeet her and knock her out against the wall.
It is OOC because literally seconds ago, kya fought Zaheer and was keeping water available to counter anything to he throws at her, her whole thing in the battle up until that point was literally redirecting water to herself to have at alm times while trying to fight Zaheer, her using all her ammo on this one thing here when she never did that prior is what causes conversation about it being ooc.
And back to what happened, Kya has literally directed all her power to where Zaheer was supposed to be here, Zaheer literally just blasted a fraction of an attack that was already performed to get to her, he didn't go up against her attach head on and you know this.
I personally think she stops at 4, because Kya is clearly more masterful and refined than any version of Book 1 Katara, plus she is arguably more powerful if she can summon large bursts of water instantly, as she did against Ming Hua.
Katara is definitely more powerful even as of book 1, Kya's just more experienced and refined.
This is a false claim as we have instances to compare it to , Zaheer has done this move other times with no issues, he got pushed back by the force of Kya's attack, Kya was factually better composed and didn't struggle like Zaheer did
You really need to stop calling your opinion "factual", it doesn't add more weight to your words. And show me one instance when Zaheer did the same move against someone else's attack so up close. Or better yet, i will.
Right here he did the same thing, and did not get staggered because of her attack. In fact, her attack back in the room did not seem to affect him in any way while he was mid-air, his body did not react to it. At best you can argue that he slipped upon landing because he didn't expect a fight, which happened after the attack was already completely negated.
also why are you diverting? I am comparing their bending not the outcome of the fight
I didn't say anything about the outcome of the fight. The exchange was about what you called a clash, back in the room.
Look at it again then, Kya was the first to bend bringing water up but Zaheer was definitely the first to attack and she used it to intercept his attacks easily then converted it to a wave she could ride
Are you in denial or something? She literally attacked him. He reacted to that attack and blocked it. The entire fight he was on the defensive, waiting for opportune moments to counter-attack. "Look at it again then" is not a counter-argument.
She attacked. He blocked. If you want to claim that it was a preemptive attack to cancel his attack right in front of him even before he started it then you don't get to talk about OOC ever again. On top of that it doesn't make even a fraction of sense considering that he always was consistently faster, which excludes the possibility of Kya's pre-emptive strikes. And considering how close her water was to him and that after this "clash" he was absolutely fine it also proves that your theory about her superior potency is still absurd and baseless.
And it definitely has everything to do with her superior potency because we have seen instances that show otherwise, if Zaheer is more powerful then he would be able to go through the attacks, force them back or disperse them easily like he did against other water attacks
Which is exactly what he did here. Because it wasn't an attack on his part, it was a defensive move to cancel her attack. Which is something he did consistently through out the fight. In the gif above, here and in their initial clash.
Even if Zaheer wasn't the first to attack in that scene ( cuz it's not really clear as they both launched simultaneously)
He wasn't, it is pretty clear, and they didn't start their moves simultaneously. See scrins above.
this still doesn't take away from the fact that their clashes have never left Kya phased
They never phased him either.
and she even has instances in her favor
Which is... neither of them.
showing that Zaheer wasn't ever a threat to her based on the power of his bending attacks alone
From now on you don't get to talk about someone lowballing Kya. Wanking her so much is not a solution. And based on the power of his attacks, which she failed to deal with both times, it shows the opposite.
so yes I'd say Kya has the better potency
I know you would. Which still doesn't change the fact that it's wishful thinking.
Yes she attacks him in this here, I never said otherwise for this scene
If only the same was true about other scenes of him not attacking her.
so I wasn't wrong about anythingI brought up how he was always the one taken aback when he tries to take on her bending regardless of whether he attacks or defend
You were, and i explained why. You didn't prove this theory yet. The ONLY thing you can argue about in this regard is him slipping back in the room. In the scene you're talking about he literally no-sells her attack with his own move. The same happened earlier where you thought he attacked her first. Your entire case is built on the fact that Zaheer slipped upon landing.
Zaheer won, BUT I'm making it clear that it wasn't from bending superiority and Kya actually showed the better bending
She didn't though. She showed more moves, each of which was ineffective. And Zaheer showed the ability to cancel and block her attacks despite your superior potency theory.
And now you're just lying, where did Zaheer ever display bending superiority over Kya?
When did i say he did? Check your info before accusing someone in lying. The entire convo looked like this:
Me: As he did to Kya. Except Tonraq actually blocked a few of those, unlike Kya.
Where in this exchane did you manage to see me claiming that Zaheer displayed bending superiority over Kya? Provide a direct quote please.
He was literally forcing tonraq to go feets back from his attacks and easily dispersing tonraq's own, he never did anything like that to Kya
Because he never spammed attacks at Kya. He attacked her twise and both times knocked her out. And the fact that Tonraq was moving back with every block (with his own feet, it wasn't him being pushed by Zaheer's attacks) doesn't change the fact that he was blocking Zaheer's attacks. Which is something Kya never managed to do.
Show me where Zaheer overpowered Kya's attack and forced her back?
Here you go.
That's was literally done offscreen and it showed Zaheer had to constantly generate air to do it, not one direct show of power
We've seen him doing it on-screen too, otherwise how would you know he had to maintain it? And don't change subjects, we were talking about scale, not power.
do you even believe what you typed here?
Yes, so it would be nice if you stopped rephrasing me this badly.
Kya has better scale manipulation instantly than he does
Still wrong.
Kya doesn't have anything remotely close to this scale either.
My statement is on the basis of the fact that Kya has shown to be able to replicate the most of the moves these other waterbenders showed while also displaying other advanced moves
Which is also not a fact, stop calling your wishful thinking that. Either provide a direct comparison and show me her replicating most of their moves or drop your empty claims.
and also showing better use of water considering she can use a relatively smaller source for multiple complex moves, all while doing it in places that are not as abundant as the poles which is where most of the other waterbenders fight took place
Except none of this is relevant, because she had enough water for those complex moves. The fact it wasn't in the poles also doesn't mean much considering that Tonraq and the twins use smaller scale and don't rely on environmental attacks. Not to mention that you're comparing different circumstances. We haven't seen Tonraq fighting in similar situation, we haven't seen Kya fighting in the poles.
Kya did not fail, she literally got him
She tagged his foot, which he broke free from on pure physicals. Considering that her goal was to freeze all of him - she did fail.
Tonraq ambushing two fodders and directly freezing them in the poles is not the same thing as Kya taking advantage of the environment instantly against a notable bender like Zaheer in moments and you know that
What i know is that Tonraq used environment to his advantage (since you consider something like this impressive) and froze two people with one move, using snow and ice to turn it into water and then instantly back into ice again. The fact that Kya attempted it against a more significant opponent doesn't matter because she didn't succeed, not to mention that she was working with water to begin with, and did it in a smaller scale. See? Lowballing can work both ways.
So you're going against the show now and trying to argue that Zaheer was an airbending master on the level of notable characters?
Oh my god, where were you even going with this? Firstly, he was a notable character, and he was above some masters (like Kya and Tonraq). Secondly, technical title of a master doesn't mean much when we have Master Zhao. And if he can be considered a master (by Iroh no less) then Zaheer definitely can be considered a master. Thirdly, not all masters are equal. Zhao would be fodder to someone like comics Zuko, Azula and Ozai, despite also being a master. The same goes for Jinora if she fought Tenzin, or even Zaheer. And lastly, how does any of this go against the show?
You cannot be serious about this lol, Tenzin uses advanced moves like airspouts, airwheel, airshields, omnidirectional blasts, twisters, quite literally taught Korra, is canonically a master, did things like Zaheer to and showed better form
And yet in his fight against Zaheer (and just in general) the vast majority of his moves were simple airblasts. Which is what i said. So, again, - your point?
Are you really trying to insinuate that tenzin and Zaheer are on the same skill level?
I really wish you stopped twisting my words. No. I'm saying that using basic airblasts in a fight (which is what you accused Zaheer in) doesn't mean shit when it comes to determining a character's level of skill.
My point is Zaheer uses airbending as an extension of his basic combat skills and has no actual proper airbending training. Kya does and showed more combat suitable moves than he did
Which doesn't change the fact that his more simplistic approach to combat is more effective, and doesn't stop him from stomping trained, skilled and experienced benders.
What is this supposed to mean?
Quite literally what it says.
It definitely matters as Kya showed quantity and quality displaying more advanced moves as a waterbender than he did and she used them all effectively i.e for the required purpose which is for combat
Except they are not just for some abstract combat. They are meant to be used to defeat her opponents. Which she failed to do. So no, they weren't effective. They were fancy. Zaheer's simple moves were effective.
Kya's different techniques is what makes her a better master of water than zaheer was for air
Not really. Quantity is still not quality.
Zaheer winning on the basis of his physical advantage such as speed enhanced by airbending doesn't take away from their level of elemental manipulation which was in Kya's favor
His speed wasn't enhanced by airbending. And his more simple moves were still more effective. She knows more skills, which still doesn't make her the more skilled of the two.
It is OOC because literally seconds ago, kya fought Zaheer and was keeping water available to counter anything to he throws at her, her whole thing in the battle up until that point was literally redirecting water to herself to have at alm times while trying to fight Zaheer, her using all her ammo on this one thing here when she never did that prior is what causes conversation about it being ooc
Have that conversation with yourself if you want. Firstly, Kya didn't counter anything Zaheer threw at her. Secondly, his attack happened when she had by far more water in her immediate vicinity compared to her attack against Ming Hua (which you considered to be enough), so nothing about this move is out of character for her. Even Tonraq on Laghima's Peak after using all of his water on an attack against Zaheer was able to recall some of it back to reshape it into his ice blade. So either you are wrong and she had enough water to use and the ooc nonsense is false, or you're arguing that Kya is less skilled waterbender than Tonraq. Btw who even told you that i care about out of character? This and plot armor are a very different conversation to the one we have here. It happened, it's canon. Nothing more to it.
And back to what happened, Kya has literally directed all her power to where Zaheer was supposed to be here, Zaheer literally just blasted a fraction of an attack that was already performed to get to her, he didn't go up against her attach head on and you know this
Which doesn't change the fact that his attack went straight through the water she was using to attack him and actively controlling as if it wasn't even there and knocked her out. Which is by far better showcase of "superior potency" than all of your theories about Zaheer slipping combined.
3. If Kya could BFR Ming Hua. she's winning here for sure.
4. Katara.
I agree with this.
For the first couple rounds, Katara is too inexperienced. Round three, Katara has her fights against Zuko, which were nice, especially for having just finished her training. However, up to this point, it's not enough to trump Kya's feats. End of Book Two, is where she can win.
@aystarr: Katara's higher end showings are more impressive sure, but they are not something that she can perform immediately, it requires a lot of actions for her to perform to pull it off (See her ice cage and ice flooding attack against Zuko). Her regular water blasts aren't as impressive as what Kya can bring to bear instantly, as Kya could instantly summon a big water blast to throw an opponent around.
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