Krillin vs Naruto

17 disagrees with you. It's also imortant to note that they never fought both ssj's at once. They only fought them one at a time.

@alextheboss: And both of the super sayians they did fight were both stronger then frieza. And I doubt 17 is actually being serious there. You can tell he's pretty casual about the whole thing when he talks to 16. There is no reason 18 couldn't have taken them all by herself. But for the sake of your comment, you were addressing if they were all Frieza level, fighting both androids. 17 alone was fighting and stalemating someone very far above Frieza. 18 was toying around with someone stronger then frieza and stomped him into the ground. I don't see how you can say they couldn't take multiple frieza level opponents when they've crushed opponents casually that are stronger then Frieza

I wasn't talking about #19 and #20. I was referring to the Androids Trunks told Goku about, the ones that even he couldn't beat. Considering how easily he took down Freeza, there's no reason to assume a Freeza level opponent would have made much of a difference.

I don't agree with your claim that three Freeza level opponents would be able to take on #17 and #18. Just look at how easily one of them defeated Trunks. I also have my doubts about Tri-Beam defeating the Androids, but Destructo Disk could possibly do the trick, although Krillin would be lucky to land one.

Versatility? Doesn't he only have rasengan variants and shadow clones? He lost his TSBs a long time ago, in physical strength he has Krillin beat in lifting but that's it really.

@blackestnight93: 18 was having some trouble with Vegeta and she has a big advantage of not getting tired or loosing energy. I could easily see her getting overwhelmed with Vegeta, Trunks, and Piccolo all fighter her at once with Krillin and Tien firing from a distance as support.

17 was casual because he knew that with him the team stood no chance. Also 17 didn't say she would definitely loose to them, he just said he thinks she would. I don't think Trunks and Vegeta were that much stronger than Frieza either. Frieza at 100% should still be able to land some shots on them before being killed. Maybe it would take more than 3 Frieza's, but my point still stands, if every single one of them was Frieza level they would be in trouble.

@thedarkpaladin: Frieza wasn't at full power when killed by Trunks. Trunks is around Namek ssj Goku level and he said he could fight well against one future android. Frieza at full power can fight well against ssj Namek Goku. So if we go by that I would say multiple Friezas should give just one future androids a hard time.

@omega_kai:

Well it does hold some cogency it wouldn't be smart of him to fight the android, when just witnesses three people with power far beyond his get beaten easily.

Yes, but the same principle applies to the fight with #19 and #20. At the time, they had no clue the Androids they would be facing weren't the ones from Trunks' timeline, and it wouldn't exactly be smart for Krillin to fight against an opponent he already knows is far superior to him.

Yes it would have been foolish but that doesn't say much, he wouldn't help in any he can from the Earth being destroyed. Him freezing up against Dr.Gero certainly doesn't say much either because so did Gohan and we know for certain his power level was above 18,000. Everyone who came to the Cell games, including knew they were hopelessly outclassed.

Actually, it does say a lot. None of the fighers besides Piccolo believed they could get passed Gero, otherwise they wouldn't have frozen up in the first place. The fact that they came to the Cell Games knowing full well that they were hopelessly outclassed only strengthens my original point.

He wasn't terrified all he said was in answer to Gohan's question was "How can I be happy when I'm about to launch a battle to death with a gang of androids. Even Piccolo said, on his way there "I can't seem to shake a feeling of doom"

He was terrified, or at least visibly nervous. The look on his face pretty much said it all. Goku even recognizes that he was acting a bit strange. Piccolo said he didn't doubt his own abilities; just that he can't seem to shake a bad feeling in the back of his mind:

Well there is no official canon for Dragon ball its all viewer interpretation and some fillers are looked at by Toriyama for approval so maybe he approved for that to be in the anime. Also my bad if you think I was trying to compare Tien to Cell I was just using that as a point of reference since Toriyama also said Krillin is the strongest human.

True, the word "canon" is never used in Dragon Ball, but filler from Toei and V Jump power levels have nothing to do with Toriyama's own work. I think Dragon Ball Kai took most of the filler out anyway, since a good percentage of it contradicted the manga itself. Yes, i'm aware Toriyama considers Krillin the strongest human.

In my opinion I think this enough evidence to say he is, well lets just agree to disagree.

Well, like i said, i don't necessarily disagree with your claim regarding Cell Saga Krillin having a power level of over 18,000, i just don't think there is anything to say that with 100% certainty. But we can agree to disagree about the filler and V Jump power levels as those discussions tend to drag on forever and only serve to derail the thread. lol

Naruto can use his tailed beast chakra like appendages and he has used his shadow clones in the past to get the better of his opponent. Also I would say these feats are better than anything Krillin or any dragon ball character before ssj level has shown for that matter.

Why do people flaunt Naruto "Versatility" when all he does is spam rasengan variants and make shadow clones?

I'm aware of this, but Trunks after the 3 year wait for the Androids was nothing but one-shot fodder to #18 and #17 is implied to be stronger than she is. The translation i have says Trunks could barely escape with his own life even when the fight was one on one:

@thedarkpaladin: Alright agree to disagree it was fun debating

@alextheboss

Also I would say these feats are better than anything Krillin or any dragon ball character before ssj level has shown for that matter.

I disagree with this, I don't wanna debate about it though lol

Aside from the Rasengan variants and clones, that are already more versatile than the majority of Krillin's arsenal, we have sealing techniques, toad summons, Kurama, various chakra cloaks, Sage Mode, Frog Kumite, chakra claws, danger sensing, weapons, flight, Sexy Jutsu, which would undoubtedly work wonders on Krillin, etc..

Krillin has Destructo Disk, Solar Flare, Kamehameha, standard ki blasts, ki sensing, and flight.

@omega_kai: Likewise.

@alextheboss:

Also I would say these feats are better than anything Krillin or any dragon ball character before ssj level has shown for that matter.

Definitely don't agree with that. It still doesn't trump Piccolo's moon feat or come anywhere close to it.

@thedarkpaladin: Was it confirmed 3 years passed in Trunk's time? I'm pretty sure he just had to wait until the time machine recharged and then he came right back.

Also this is the scan I was talking about.

I was talking about physical showings only.

Krillin stomps

If there are physical feats that match that before ssj I would like to see it. Base Goku vs Frieza came close and arguably was on that level for some portions, but I can't think of anyone weaker than them accomplishing physical feats on that leve.

@alextheboss:

Was it confirmed 3 years passed in Trunk's time? I'm pretty sure he just had to wait until the time machine recharged and then he came right back.

It wasn't confirmed that he waited 3 years, but his own words suggest that it took some time before he was able to return to the past; he wasn't even sure if he would be alive by the time the machine finished charging:

Also this is the scan I was talking about.

That seems kind of contradicting to what he told Goku, unless he became stronger and fought the Androids once more in his own timeline while waiting for the machine to charge..

I was talking about physical showings only.

I see.

@thedarkpaladin: His appearance changed more from his time in the HTC so I'm going to guess he waited for less than a year for the time machine to charge. Also a lot could happen in a couple months so he was right to say he wasn't sure if he would still be alive.

I wouldn't say him being able to put up a fight against one android is contradicting what he told Goku. As long as one android is still noticeably stronger than him he would still be killed. The fact he was strong enough to be able to get away from them is impressive.

@alextheboss:

His appearance changed more from his time in the HTC so I'm going to guess he waited for less than a year for the time machine to charge. Also a lot could happen in a couple months so he was right to say he wasn't sure if he would still be alive.

There's no way to know exactly how long he had to wait, but according to his own words, it was a long time nonetheless. If he was already planning on returning to the past to help the Z Fighters, it's safe to assume that he did train at least a little bit during the wait.

I wouldn't say him being able to put up a fight against one android is contradicting what he told Goku. As long as one android is still noticeably stronger than him he would still be killed. The fact he was strong enough to be able to get away from them is impressive.

It kind of is, though. Trunks says it took everything he had just to escape with his life, even when fighting one on one, so he wouldn't have put up that good of a fight. He later states that he was in no way a match for the Androids of his time and that their strength was "unimaginable":

Gallery

On top of all that, he didn't seem too confident in Vegeta's ability to take on the Androids alone, even after Piccolo makes it quite clear that Vegeta surpassed Goku. Mind you, Trunks didn't know the Androids were stronger than the ones in his timeline at this point.

@thedarkpaladin:

There's no way to know exactly how long he had to wait, but according to his own words, it was a long time nonetheless. If he was already planning on returning to the past to help the Z Fighters, it's safe to assume that he did train at least a little bit during the wait.

Maybe he got 5% stronger, there is no real way to tell so we might as well just ignore it.

It kind of is, though. Trunks says it took everything he had just to escape with his life, even when fighting one on one, so he wouldn't have put up that good of a fight. He later states that he was in no way a match for the Androids of his time and that their strength was "unimaginable":

It probably just comes down to at first Toriyama was hyping up the future androids, and then he wanted to hype up the present androids. An in universe reason could be Trunks didn't want the others to take the androids lightly so he purposefully made them sound more dangerous than they are.

On top of all that, he didn't seem too confident in Vegeta's ability to take on the Androids alone, even after Piccolo makes it quite clear that Vegeta surpassed Goku. Mind you, Trunks didn't know the Androids were stronger than the ones in his timeline at this point.

There are other lines of Piccolo saying he wasn't really sure if Vegeta was stronger than current Goku. I think he meant he was definitely stronger than sick or maybe Yadrat Goku. I think ssj Goku and Vegeta are basically the same level at that point. I would say they are just a little weaker than the future androids, but that would mean Vegeta would loose since he doesn't have infinite energy and it would be 2v1 so Trunks would be right to think Vegeta couldn't win.

Krillin/Tien<<<19/20<Piccolo<Frieza<ssj Namek Goku<ssj Trunks<ssj Goku/Vegeta<future androids<present androids

@alextheboss: How isn't he? Vegeta was a planet buster before he even arrived on Earth to fight Goku. Krillin is most definitely stronger than that by time the Androids showed up otherwise he wouldn't have went to fight. Piccolo specifically said that no one should show up if they aren't strong enough to help. (which is why Chiaotzu didn't go) Krillin was told everyone dies. Vegeta gets huge power gains on Namek and is about equal to Piccolo by the time they leave (who fought Frieza's 2nd form to a stand still). He definitely got stronger over time and you have to be mentally silly to be convinced he isn't a planet buster. I wouldn't bother scaling him past that point (cause there is no point when this is a man who wouldn't ever do such things), but denying him that right is just spite.

Then we can move on to Toriyama calling him the strongest Earthling, power levels, how mangas typically work in power showings, but no one wants to hear that.

I disagree. Piccolo and Vegeta are constantly saying that Vegeta is stronger than Goku at this point. Chapters 345-350ish is when it takes place. Vegeta was more powerful than Frieza at this time. He got stomped by 18. If Frieza showed up he'd be laughed at. The whole 17 vs Piccolo (yeah, I know Piccolo got a huge power boost since then but he still couldn't beat 17 so that shows a lot) fight is a solid showing that they're beyond Frieza's level

@SouskueMadara: In the manga Vegeta never destroyed a planet. He said he was going to blow Earth to bits but he might of just been bluffing. Blowing up the planet would kill himslef and he didn't even try using his great ape for yet. There was no need to kill himself yet. Also he said if Goku dodged it he may survive. Not to mention right before he said he would blow up the planet he said he was the strongest warrior in the universe, which was a lie. Then later in the series Frieza (who is much stronger than Vegeta was) said he was going to blow up Namek, but when his attack actually landed it didn't blow up the planet.

I disagree. Piccolo and Vegeta are constantly saying that Vegeta is stronger than Goku at this point. Chapters 345-350ish is when it takes place. Vegeta was more powerful than Frieza at this time. He got stomped by 18. If Frieza showed up he'd be laughed at. The whole 17 vs Piccolo (yeah, I know Piccolo got a huge power boost since then but he still couldn't beat 17 so that shows a lot) fight is a solid showing that they're beyond Frieza's level

Vegeta always says he is stronger. He also only said he was "probably" stronger "because of his royal blood". So he was just guessing since he was an elite warrior he was automatically stronger, he didn't actually know. Piccolo didn't know Goku's full power either and a couple times he said Vegeta "might" be stronger than Goku. Nobody actually knew for sure, but it really doesn't matter which one was stronger, because they were almost exactly the same. Piccolo was weaker than Frieza until he fused with Kami.

You are wrong and I want you to know that.

Vegeta was childish at this point in the story. I wouldn't put him past killing himself to gain a spiteful victory. Also, that whole saiyains die in space is real believable when Goku and Beerus fight above Earth's atmosphere so I'm gonna toss it right out the window despite Whis' statements in RoF.

Piccolo just spent like three freakin` years training with Goku (in preparation for the Androids) and you're telling me he doesn't know his power? Bullshit. Piccolo was NOT weaker than 2nd form Frieza. He was weaker than Final Form who is FAR weaker than 17 & 18 who are EQUAL to Kami fused Piccolo. Frieza is fodder to Trunks and Vegeta (who are much weaker than 17 & 18). Piccolo isn't the only one who heavily implies that Vegeta is stronger. Goku even specifically states that if Vegeta couldn't win then he couldn't either when asked about the Androids.

@SouskueMadara:

You are wrong and I want you to know that.

We have confirmation that you are under 18.

Vegeta was childish at this point in the story. I wouldn't put him past killing himself to gain a spiteful victory. Also, that whole saiyains die in space is real believable when Goku and Beerus fight above Earth's atmosphere so I'm gonna toss it right out the window despite Whis' statements in RoF.

Goku and Beerus fought in the stratosphere, it was litterally stated in the super manga. Siayan's cant survive in space and that's a fact.

Piccolo just spent like three freakin` years training with Goku (in preparation for the Androids) and you're telling me he doesn't know his power?

Why would Goku ever use his full power on someone so much weaker than him?

Piccolo was NOT weaker than 2nd form Frieza. He was weaker than Final Form who is FAR weaker than 17 & 18 who are EQUAL to Kami fused Piccolo.

I never said android saga Piccolo was weaker than second form Frieza... I meant he was weaker than 100% final form Frieza...

Also Frieza isn't that much weaker than the androids. They are like 50%- twice as strong as him.

Frieza is fodder to Trunks and Vegeta (who are much weaker than 17 & 18).

Frieza at 100% power isn't fodder to ssj Trunks and Vegeta, but I agree they would win pretty easily.

Goku even specifically states that if Vegeta couldn't win then he couldn't either when asked about the Androids.

Ya because they were almost the exact same strength. Goku<=>Vegeta<androids

I'm amazed that Android Saga Vegeta and 17 & 18 are being brought up in a thread about Naruto fighting Krillin, neither of whom are as strong as Android Saga Vegeta or either of the androids...

@alextheboss:

It probably just comes down to at first Toriyama was hyping up the future androids, and then he wanted to hype up the present androids. An in universe reason could be Trunks didn't want the others to take the androids lightly so he purposefully made them sound more dangerous than they are.

I doubt that. Trunks' explanation seemed genuine to me, and he definitely isn't the type of character to just exaggerate a someone's power like that. It could just mean that the androids from his time weren't strong enough to basically one-shot him so casually, but based on his past statements, it seems like even the future Androids were way out of his league.

There are other lines of Piccolo saying he wasn't really sure if Vegeta was stronger than current Goku. I think he meant he was definitely stronger than sick or maybe Yadrat Goku. I think ssj Goku and Vegeta are basically the same level at that point. I would say they are just a little weaker than the future androids, but that would mean Vegeta would loose since he doesn't have infinite energy and it would be 2v1 so Trunks would be right to think Vegeta couldn't win.

I'm pretty sure Piccolo meant what he said. He should know Goku's power well enough after training with him the past three years. Add that to the fact that only he and Gohan knew something was wrong with Goku while he was fighting #19. They could tell he wasn't fighting at his full power. So I would definitely say that Vegeta was stronger than Goku at that point, even if the gap in power wasn't that big. Based on what Trunks said, I would definitely put SSJ Vegeta below the future Androids, but not by too much. However, Vegeta at that time would have mopped the floor with Freeza and King Cold even easier than Trunks did.

Krillin/Tien<<<19/20<Piccolo<Frieza<ssj Namek Goku<ssj Trunks<ssj Goku/Vegeta<future androids<present androids

Pretty much. And since we know how easily Piccolo got taken out of the fight by #17, there is no reason to think Freeza would have fared much better.

@thedarkpaladin:

I doubt that. Trunks' explanation seemed genuine to me, and he definitely isn't the type of character to just exaggerate a someone's power like that. It could just mean that the androids from his time weren't strong enough to basically one-shot him so casually, but based on his past statements, it seems like even the future Androids were way out of his league.

I wouldn't say out of his league. Just strong enough to where he couldn't win. Kind of like Frieza compared to ssj Goku except a little more of a gap.

I'm pretty sure Piccolo meant what he said. He should know Goku's power well enough after training with him the past three years. Add that to the fact that only he and Gohan knew something was wrong with Goku while he was fighting #19. They could tell he wasn't fighting at his full power. So I would definitely say that Vegeta was stronger than Goku at that point, even if the gap in power wasn't that big. Based on what Trunks said, I would definitely put SSJ Vegeta below the future Androids, but not by too much. However, Vegeta at that time would have mopped the floor with Freeza and King Cold even easier than Trunks did.

There was a couple times when Piccolo said Vegeta might be stronger, and even Vegeta only said he "should" be stronger. They gave Goku the heart virus for a reason. Most likely because with them they wouldn't of been in too much danger and the original time line wouldn't of been taken over by the androids.

I also agree ssj Vegeta would beat Frieza pretty easily, but I think 100% Frieza could land a couple hits before being killed.

Pretty much. And since we know how easily Piccolo got taken out of the fight by #17, there is no reason to think Freeza would have fared much better.

Frieza by himself wouldn't, but if all of them were as strong as Frieza that would of been like 4 Freeza's and 2 ssj's, lol.

@blackestnight93: I don't remember the exact reason they were brought up, but I don't think it had much to do with krillin vs naruto, lol.

@alextheboss:

I wouldn't say out of his league. Just strong enough to where he couldn't win. Kind of like Frieza compared to ssj Goku except a little more of a gap.

Going by his explanation to Goku, "out of his league" doesn't seem to far-fetched. After all, he was barely able to escape with his life even when he was only facing one of the Androids.

There was a couple times when Piccolo said Vegeta might be stronger, and even Vegeta only said he "should" be stronger. They gave Goku the heart virus for a reason. Most likely because with them they wouldn't of been in too much danger and the original time line wouldn't of been taken over by the androids.

Trunks gave him the antidote, and he only did so because he thought Goku might be able to make a difference. I doubt he knew for sure, especially considering that he didn't even know anything about Goku up until that point other than what his mother told him. Besides, I don't think Goku was much stronger than Trunks himself when they first met. I only remember Piccolo saying he might be stronger once, but he later confirms this to be true. Vegeta also made it clear that he was the stronger between the two:

Gallery

I think Toriyama made it pretty obvious that Vegeta had surpassed Goku at the time, even if only by a little bit.

I also agree ssj Vegeta would beat Frieza pretty easily, but I think 100% Frieza could land a couple hits before being killed.

Possibly, but Freeza should still be outclassed by #17 and #18.

Frieza by himself wouldn't, but if all of them were as strong as Frieza that would of been like 4 Freeza's and 2 ssj's, lol.

It would have increased their chances for sure; yet the two SSJs would have been the trump cards in this scenario. Although my original point only took Krillin's power into account, not the other Z Fighters. :p

@thedarkpaladin:

Going by his explanation to Goku, "out of his league" doesn't seem to far-fetched. After all, he was barely able to escape with his life even when he was only facing one of the Androids.

But he also mentioned he was strong enough to put up somewhat of a fight 1v1. I would say the present androids are out of his league, but the future androids were just solidly above him.

Trunks gave him the antidote, and he only did so because he thought Goku might be able to make a difference. I doubt he knew for sure, especially considering that he didn't even know anything about Goku up until that point other than what his mother told him. Besides, I don't think Goku was much stronger than Trunks himself when they first met. I only remember Piccolo saying he might be stronger once, but he later confirms this to be true. Vegeta also made it clear that he was the stronger between the two:

I meant story wise from Toriyama's point of view. There is no reason to have GVEgoku have a heart virus if he wouldn't of made a difference. Goku could of just been killed by the androids like everyone else and never gotten sick in the present timeline, but Toriyama wanted to take him out of the equation.

Vegeta basically just said now that he is on equal standing as a ssj with Goku there is now way he is weaker, because he is Vegeta. That's his only reason. He just thinks he's the best.

I think Toriyama made it pretty obvious that Vegeta had surpassed Goku at the time, even if only by a little bit.

Not really it just seemed like he was hyping Vegeta up to make the androids look more threatening when they beat him. Also he just wanted to give Vegeta a cool moment. Even if Vegeta was stronger by a little, Goku still has IT, the kamehameha, and the spirit bomb. I doubt he would loose.

Possibly, but Freeza should still be outclassed by #17 and #18.

Ya but if 17 thinks human level fighters are enough to make a difference, there is no reason to believe Frieza level fighters wouldn't. 17 and 18 could have major problems taking two super saiyians, and 3 Frieza's at full power with no stamina problems. 17 and 18 might still win together, but not by themselves.

It would have increased their chances for sure; yet the two SSJs would have been the trump cards in this scenario. Although my original point only took Krillin's power into account, not the other Z Fighters. :p

I agree, but 18 said she was going to use her full power on Vegeta (not sure if she really did) and Trunks mentioned he was holding his own, but Piccolo said no he was running out of energy. So if it wasn't for the androids infinite energy Vegeta might of been able to put up an ok fight.

@alextheboss:

But he also mentioned he was strong enough to put up somewhat of a fight 1v1. I would say the present androids are out of his league, but the future androids were just solidly above him.

He never mentioned 1v1, and by decent fight, he may have just meant that the future Androids weren't strong enough to KO him with one or two attacks. It doesn't necessarily mean that he was any sort of match for them. I mean if he was, there would be little reason for him to go back in time in the first place, rather than just become strong enough to close the gap.

I meant story wise from Toriyama's point of view. There is no reason to have GVEgoku have a heart virus if he wouldn't of made a difference. Goku could of just been killed by the androids like everyone else and never gotten sick in the present timeline, but Toriyama wanted to take him out of the equation.

And there is nothing to suggest that he would have made much of a difference in the fight against the Androids either, especially since a much stronger Piccolo could only hold his own against #17. Not only that, but even if Goku joined the fight, he would have been slaughtered by #16, so giving Goku the heart virus in the future is akin to saving his life.

Vegeta basically just said now that he is on equal standing as a ssj with Goku there is now way he is weaker, because he is Vegeta. That's his only reason. He just thinks he's the best.

But his confidence is backed up by Piccolo's own words. Remember, the Z Fighters all sensed Goku's power back when he became a SSJ three years prior, but only Gohan and Piccolo were able to tell something was wrong with Goku, and that he wasn't as strong as he should be.

Not really it just seemed like he was hyping Vegeta up to make the androids look more threatening when they beat him. Also he just wanted to give Vegeta a cool moment. Even if Vegeta was stronger by a little, Goku still has IT, the kamehameha, and the spirit bomb. I doubt he would loose.

The Spirit Bomb would be irrelevant, seeing as how Vegeta would never actually let him charge it, and he if Goku uses Solar Flare, Vegeta can still sense his energy. Instant Kamehameha wasn't even one of Goku's moves at the time. Toriyama wouldn't have had a reason for Piccolo to say Vegeta was stronger if it wasn't the case. He had already hyped the Androids up enough by making it clear that SSJ Trunks wasn't a match for them. Of course, we can't be sure of anything, but given the context, I'm going to assume Vegeta had a slight edge over Goku at that point...at least in terms of power.

Ya but if 17 thinks human level fighters are enough to make a difference, there is no reason to believe Frieza level fighters wouldn't. 17 and 18 could have major problems taking two super saiyians, and 3 Frieza's at full power with no stamina problems. 17 and 18 might still win together, but not by themselves.

True, but that was just against #18 alone. Once #17 joined the party, he was basically one-shotting Tien and Piccolo quite casually. Not to mention, #18 alone took Trunks, the second strongest fighter there, out of the battle with 2 attacks, and she didn't even appear to be struggling against Vegeta, who should be well above Freeza at that point.

I agree, but 18 said she was going to use her full power on Vegeta (not sure if she really did) and Trunks mentioned he was holding his own, but Piccolo said no he was running out of energy. So if it wasn't for the androids infinite energy Vegeta might of been able to put up an ok fight.

It's hard to say... If you compare how casual her attitude was while fighting Vegeta with how much #17 appeared to be struggling against Piccolo, it doesn't seem like it to me. Of course, that could just be because #17 is stronger, but it's hard to say for sure. But I do agree that Vegeta would have put up a better fight if not for the Android's infinite energy.

This is beyond ignorant.

Krillin stomps naruto into dust. Why are you all stilll letting these naruto fannies lowball every other series and leave out context?

@thedarkpaladin:

He never mentioned 1v1, and by decent fight, he may have just meant that the future Androids weren't strong enough to KO him with one or two attacks. It doesn't necessarily mean that he was any sort of match for them. I mean if he was, there would be little reason for him to go back in time in the first place, rather than just become strong enough to close the gap.

That's even more impressive then. Maybe Trunk's didn't know how strong he could become. Logically all he would of needed is a couple months in the HTC. I see no reason why Goku couldn't of told him about it via King Kai telepathy.

And there is nothing to suggest that he would have made much of a difference in the fight against the Androids either, especially since a much stronger Piccolo could only hold his own against #17. Not only that, but even if Goku joined the fight, he would have been slaughtered by #16, so giving Goku the heart virus in the future is akin to saving his life.

Well for the future timeline I think Goku could of made a difference, but you are right with 16 in the picture he couldn't of done much.

But his confidence is backed up by Piccolo's own words. Remember, the Z Fighters all sensed Goku's power back when he became a SSJ three years prior, but only Gohan and Piccolo were able to tell something was wrong with Goku, and that he wasn't as strong as he should be.

Ya I think ssj sick Goku<ssj Namek Goku<ssj Yadrat Goku<ssj Vegeta/Goku

The Spirit Bomb would be irrelevant, seeing as how Vegeta would never actually let him charge it, and he if Goku uses Solar Flare, Vegeta can still sense his energy. Instant Kamehameha wasn't even one of Goku's moves at the time. Toriyama wouldn't have had a reason for Piccolo to say Vegeta was stronger if it wasn't the case. He had already hyped the Androids up enough by making it clear that SSJ Trunks wasn't a match for them. Of course, we can't be sure of anything, but given the context clues, I'm going to assume Vegeta had a slight edge over Goku at that point...at least in terms of power.

Ya we knew Trunks was no match for the androids, but at the time we weren't supposed to know Vegeta would loose so badly.

True, but that was just against #18 alone. Once #17 joined the party, he was basically one-shotting Tien and Piccolo quite casually. Not to mention, #18 alone took Trunks, the second strongest fighter there, out of the battle with 2 attacks, and she didn't even appear to be struggling against Vegeta, who should be well above Freeza at that point.

Ya if 17 and 18 even if they were Frieza level they would most likely loose I was thinking more along the lines of 17 or 18 couldn't win by themselves.

It's hard to say... If you compare how casual her attitude was while fighting Vegeta with how much #17 appeared to be struggling against Piccolo, it doesn't seem like it to me. Of course, that could just be because #17 is stronger, but it's hard to say for sure. But I do agree that Vegeta would have put up a better fight if not for the Android's infinite energy.

She could of been using all of her power, but still not have been pushed. Basically using all of her power is what let her fight him casually. It's kind of like how Frieza used 50% of his power to beat up Goku. Frieza didn't need all 50% of his power, but that much power made him casually beat up Goku.

@omni_troll: Even with power scaling Krillin only has better DC. Naruto has better speed and striking feats than anyone weaker than Frieza. It's not in character for Krillin to start shooting moon level attacks. They will start off in a hand to hand fight, which is where Naruto wins. If they started with energy attacks Krillin would probably win.

@alextheboss:

That's even more impressive then. Maybe Trunk's didn't know how strong he could become. Logically all he would of needed is a couple months in the HTC. I see no reason why Goku couldn't of told him about it via King Kai telepathy.

Yeah, but that's assuming his definition of "decent fight" is not getting knocked out cold by one or two attacks, lol. Besides, he did say before that he couldn't even beat one of them on his own.

Well for the future timeline I think Goku could of made a difference, but you are right with 16 in the picture he couldn't of done much.

He might have been able to. There's really no way to know for sure, though.

Ya I think ssj sick Goku<ssj Namek Goku<ssj Yadrat Goku<ssj Vegeta/Goku

But don't you find it a bit odd how Piccolo and Gohan were the only ones able to tell that Goku wasn't as strong as he should be? The other Z Fighters did sense his power three years back after all...

Ya we knew Trunks was no match for the androids, but at the time we weren't supposed to know Vegeta would loose so badly.

Trunks seemed to think SSJ wasn't enough to beat them, even though he could sense how strong Vegeta was. He also didn't think the Androids were any stronger than the ones in his time at that point.

Ya if 17 and 18 even if they were Frieza level they would most likely loose I was thinking more along the lines of 17 or 18 couldn't win by themselves.

I agree with that, but there would still be casualties on the Z Fighter's team, especially if they were facing #17. Realistically, Freeza might be able to beat them by blowing up the planet; although that's the only way he would be able to win.

She could of been using all of her power, but still not have been pushed. Basically using all of her power is what let her fight him casually. It's kind of like how Frieza used 50% of his power to beat up Goku. Frieza didn't need all 50% of his power, but that much power made him casually beat up Goku.

This is true. It seemed to me like she was just blocking all of Vegeta's attacks and letting his energy run low without taking the fight too seriously. You could tell that #17 was at least having a hard time with Piccolo after he fused with Kami.

@thedarkpaladin:

But don't you find it a bit odd how Piccolo and Gohan were the only ones able to tell that Goku wasn't as strong as he should be? The other Z Fighters did sense his power three years back after all...

It seems like they don't really know what to sense. Tien just says, wow so this is how a ssj feels up close. The only time they felt Goku go ssj it was for a couple seconds agaisnt Trunks from far away. Goku wasn't just weaker, he was also fighting sloppy and the others didn't notice that either. So even if his power level was above his namek version at first, he was still fighting less effectively that he was on namek.

Trunks seemed to think SSJ wasn't enough to beat them, even though he could sense how strong Vegeta was. He also didn't think the Androids were any stronger than the ones in his time at that point.

Ya he said Vegeta couldn't win on his own. He said wait for Goku. It seemed like Trunks thought with all three of them they would win.

I agree with that, but there would still be casualties on the Z Fighter's team, especially if they were facing #17. Realistically, Freeza might be able to beat them by blowing up the planet; although that's the only way he would be able to win.

Well ya if Frieza blows up the planet he could solo them, lol.

naruto uses the harem jutsu.krillin falls in love

naruto wins

@animefightshd: That is actually a possibility, lol.

@alextheboss:

It seems like they don't really know what to sense. Tien just says, wow so this is how a ssj feels up close. The only time they felt Goku go ssj it was for a couple seconds agaisnt Trunks from far away. Goku wasn't just weaker, he was also fighting sloppy and the others didn't notice that either. So even if his power level was above his namek version at first, he was still fighting less effectively that he was on namek.

...Why wouldn't they know? The Z Fighters all sensed his energy three years prior and it wasn't even from that far away, at least not compared to Freeza and Trunks, both of whom they had no problem sensing. This is what their reaction was to Goku powering up against Trunks:

Gallery

Now #19:

Gallery

And yes, while Piccolo said he was fighting sloppy, he also mentioned that Goku should be much stronger than the level he was fighting on. The rest of the Z Fighters thought his strength was amazing, even compared to the last time he transformed. If his power was weaker than it was the last time he transformed, they would have noticed.

Ya he said Vegeta couldn't win on his own. He said wait for Goku. It seemed like Trunks thought with all three of them they would win.

He said the only chance they have is to wait for Goku. That doesn't mean he knew for sure if it would be enough to win, just that their chance of victory would be greater.

Krillin should win this though

@thedarkpaladin: Nobody mentioned Goku was stronger than he was when he arrived on Earth. The only person who kept saying how strong Goku was, was Tien. Also Yadrat Goku didn't even show his full power. Yamucha even mentioned his ki would be higher when fighting.

He said the only chance they have is to wait for Goku. That doesn't mean he knew for sure if it would be enough to win, just that their chance of victory would be greater.

I don't think I said Trunks thought Goku would confirm a victory, he just thought they would have a good chance with Goku for help.

@alextheboss:

Nobody mentioned Goku was stronger than he was when he arrived on Earth. The only person who kept saying how strong Goku was, was Tien. Also Yadrat Goku didn't even show his full power. Yamucha even mentioned his ki would be higher when fighting.

Tien said it was like nothing he had ever seen before, and he already witnessed Goku transform three years ago. Yamcha said that before Goku and Trunks started fighting.

I don't think I said Trunks thought Goku would confirm a victory, he just thought they would have a good chance with Goku for help.

He just thought they would have a better chance, which should be obvious. It doesn't necessarily he mean he thought they would win like you were saying before.

@thedarkpaladin:

The last time Tien felt a ssj was 3 years prior and he never actually saw one in a real fight. If Goku ever used his full power while training with Piccolo don't you think everyone on the planet that senses ki would of sensed it?

Trunks must of thought they had good a good chance since he went to all the trouble of going back in time, and he seemed pretty confident in Goku's power. Yadrat Goku even surpassed his expectations.

@alextheboss:

He saw the brief fight between Trunks and Goku. Yamcha even said it was incredible. If the Z Fighters were focused on their own training, it's possible that they may not have sensed Goku. Piccolo failed to sense Cell because he was too distracted during his fight with #17, and Krillin and Tien didn't sense him right away either. Of course, he wasn't at full power, but a ki such as his would be hard to miss, and Tien seemed to be frightened by it.

Perhaps the reason he came back so early was to give them a chance to prepare.

Killin decapitates Naruto with his destructo disks

@thedarkpaladin:

Tien wasn't nearly as impressed by Piccolo's ki, yet Piccolo did much better against 20 than Goku did against 19. 20 is supposed to be stronger than 12, which should make Piccolo stronger than sick ssj Goku, but Tien wasn't going crazy about how big his ki is like he was with Goku. Since Tien didn't say Goku was definitely stronger than he was before, then it doesn't mean much.