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#51 Edited by AlexTheBoss (15793 posts) - - Show Bio

@blackestnight93: Naruto can easily destroy cities...

Here are some feats of Naruto and Sasuke fighting.

No Caption Provided
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That is the explosion form Chaitzu.
That is the explosion form Chaitzu.
This an explosion from the 10 tails.
This an explosion from the 10 tails.

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#52 Posted by Thedarkpaladin (22886 posts) - - Show Bio

Krillin is a joke. Naruto wins by default.

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#53 Edited by Vertigo- (17496 posts) - - Show Bio

@alextheboss: not as casually as nappa can clearly. Nappa only needs two fingers. Naruto needs to amp himself with a mode.

anyway, we're getting off topic here. This Krillin is much stronger then Nappa, so even if he was on Nappa's level (which he isn't). It's still not good enough

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#54 Posted by AlexTheBoss (15793 posts) - - Show Bio

@blackestnight93: I never said base Naruto could beat Krillin... I'm talking about Naruto's maximum power in his strongest mode.

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#55 Posted by Vertigo- (17496 posts) - - Show Bio

@alextheboss: If we're going for maximum efficiency, then he's still not above Nappa. Considering the power level would increase if Nappa powered up. An all out Naruto can maybe match a casual, non-serious Nappa. But not a serious Nappa is still above him imo.

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#56 Posted by AlexTheBoss (15793 posts) - - Show Bio

@blackestnight93: Possibly. The problem with dragon ball is it's really inconsistent. Base Goku had trouble with 40 tons. Krillin and Tein couldn't break through a metal door. Ssj Vegeta couldn't even budge 1,000 tons.

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#57 Edited by Vertigo- (17496 posts) - - Show Bio

@alextheboss: In that, I will agree. Although you have to have plot somehow I guess

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#58 Posted by Watertaco (452 posts) - - Show Bio

Naruto is a country buster, but Cell saga Krillin should logically have the power of planet busting (if we assume to planet bust you must be at >=Saiyan saga Vegeta).

Current Naruto (as the 7th Hokage) has yet use his RSM form, so I'm not sure if he even still has it? Because Naruto can't fly without that form, and that's a huge disadvantage when you're against an opponent who can just nuke you from the skies. Like, why would Krillin even engage in CQC with Naruto? It's not like he needs to be close to Naruto in order to kill him. However, Naruto is more of a close range to mid range fighter, so this is another disadvantage for Naruto.

Krillin flies up, unleashes a multi-continent level blast and wipes out Naruto.

And even if we give Naruto his RSM form, I still don't think he wins this fight.

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#59 Posted by goku_black (662 posts) - - Show Bio

@alextheboss: I'd like to see some proof of that hefty claim, and no, Naruto outpacing Madara's neck is no good here.

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#60 Posted by goku_black (662 posts) - - Show Bio
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#61 Posted by Thedarkpaladin (22886 posts) - - Show Bio
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#62 Posted by goku_black (662 posts) - - Show Bio

@thedarkpaladin: lol like death owned you? at ease low baller, we're having a debate here

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#63 Posted by Thedarkpaladin (22886 posts) - - Show Bio

@thedarkpaladin: lol like death owned you? at ease low baller, we're having a debate here

I don't recall getting owned. On the other hand, you have a pretty consistent record of getting wrecked in every debate you participate in. You tagged me, remember? Just let me know if you want to take another L. :p

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#64 Posted by goku_black (662 posts) - - Show Bio

@thedarkpaladin: Your definition of wrecked amuses me.You're the same guy that disproved himself with manga panels then proceeded to argue against them lol Furthermore there's no L's to be taken with the logic you're using in this thread. See yourself out please:)

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#65 Posted by Thedarkpaladin (22886 posts) - - Show Bio

Feat wise Krillin is outclassed. I suppose the best argument that can be made for him relies on powerscailing and ABC logic. Unfortunately, none of that is concrete.

In terms of on panel evidence, though:

No Caption Provided
No Caption Provided

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#66 Posted by Thedarkpaladin (22886 posts) - - Show Bio

@thedarkpaladin: Your definition of wrecked amuses me.You're the same guy that disproved himself with manga panels then proceeded to argue against them lol Furthermore there's no L's to be taken with the logic you're using in this thread. See yourself out please:)

Is that right? I seem to recall it happening a little differently. Like how myself and a few others had to show you the correct way to read a panel so you wouldn't continue to misinterpret the same statement over and over again. Next time you tag me, at least attempt to formulate an argument. lol

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#67 Posted by goku_black (662 posts) - - Show Bio

@thedarkpaladin: Fortunately it is. You don't have to like it but it is what it is. With the logic you're using (basically moar AOE yada yada) Nardo loses to Roshi, a support character lol How's he contending with Krillin?

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#68 Posted by IRHP87 (1891 posts) - - Show Bio

@lpnq said:

Krillin...

This is spite

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#69 Posted by goku_black (662 posts) - - Show Bio

@thedarkpaladin: again your initial post tells me you're in no position to tell someone how to formulate an "argument" lol

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#70 Posted by Thedarkpaladin (22886 posts) - - Show Bio

@thedarkpaladin: Fortunately it is. You don't have to like it but it is what it is. With the logic you're using (basically moar AOE yada yada) Nardo loses to Roshi, a support character lol How's he contending with Krillin?

Well, Naruto tanked an attack that split the moon no problem. That moon was also terraformed to have a gravity similar to earth, btw, so the attack that split it would naturally require more energy than destroying our own moon, even if the two halves weren't scattered to the point where the moon's own gravity wouldn't pull itself back together.

Someone already did a calc on it a few months back: (It was done assuming the moon was hollow and it didn't take GBE into account)

http://comicvine.gamespot.com/forums/battles-7/saitama-vs-naruto-1774806/?page=5#js-message-16475651

@thedarkpaladin: again your initial post tells me you're in no position to tell someone how to formulate an "argument" lol

You'll need a better argument. ABC logic and powerscailing is cute, but it is flimsy at best. Feats are considered on panel evidence of a character's abilities. If you want to argue against on panel evidence with nothing more concrete than speculation, you should probably stop trying to debate.

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#71 Edited by goku_black (662 posts) - - Show Bio

@thedarkpaladin said:
@goku_black said:

@thedarkpaladin: Fortunately it is. You don't have to like it but it is what it is. With the logic you're using (basically moar AOE yada yada) Nardo loses to Roshi, a support character lol How's he contending with Krillin?

Well, Naruto tanked an attack that split the moon no problem. That moon was also terraformed to have a gravity similar to earth, btw, so the attack that split it would naturally require more energy than destroying our own moon, even if the two halves weren't scattered to the point where the moon's own gravity wouldn't pull itself back together.

Someone already did a calc on it a few months back: (It was done assuming the moon was hollow and it didn't take GBE into account)

http://comicvine.gamespot.com/forums/battles-7/saitama-vs-naruto-1774806/?page=5#js-message-16475651

@goku_black said:

@thedarkpaladin: again your initial post tells me you're in no position to tell someone how to formulate an "argument" lol

You'll need a better argument. ABC logic and powerscailing is cute, but it is flimsy at best. Feats are considered on panel evidence of a character's abilities. If you want to argue against on panel evidence with nothing more concrete than speculation, you should probably stop trying to debate.

Lol right, I'll need a better argument. My argument hinges upon manga evidence. Vegeta outright stated who Krillin's foes were comparable to before he one shot them. You're using fan calcs, boy. Stand down lol What's funny is that even on panel evidence has Krillin coming out top. I don't remember Nardo cutting a guy that could withstand planetary explosions :)

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#72 Edited by Watertaco (452 posts) - - Show Bio

@thedarkpaladin: Powerscaling and ABC logic? Well, that's the only reliable way to gauge Dragon Ball character power levels, unless we are to assume Dragon Ball Roshi > current Goku, since we have yet to see Goku ever destroy a moon.

That's just the type of writer Toriyama is, with rare exceptions (such as Tien stalemating Semi-Perfect Cell, Krillin cutting off Frieza's tail). His style of writing is fundamentally different from Kishi's. Whenever he has a character implied or inferred to be stronger than another, that also correlates with their own destructive capabilities being greater than that character. That's why we don't need it to be spelled out on panel that Goku can bust a planet, that's simply from powerscaling. For another example, look at Krillin's decimation of the Saibamen, whom where all stated to be equal to Raditz. Krillin was well above Raditz at that point, and it showed whenever he completely obliterated them all. That's just DBZ logic.

Regardless, this is a different situation anyways. We know that it's an objective fact that Cell saga Krillin is above Saiyan saga Vegeta, who claimed to be able to bust a planet. You might say that that didn't happen on panel, fine. However, we do see a weaker Piccolo casually bust the moon, and Cell saga Krillin is beyond that same Piccolo.

Naruto isn't tanking multiple moon level blasts like that, it's just not happening. It took him focusing all of his chakra in his arm to tank a moon-splitting attack, but splitting the moon and busting it are two radically different things. Regardless, Krillin can fly, current Naruto can't. And he doesn't have a teleport like Sasuke does to help him. Naruto can spawn in as many clones as he likes, throw as many Rasenshurikens as he likes, fire as many Bijuudamas as he likes; it won't matter if his opponent can simply fly out of it's way. And Krillin certainly has the speed to do it. Krillin could fly up, and use Solar Flare, which would take Naruto completely by surprise, and just nuke the battlefield.

Like, Naruto chopping the tree in half is fine, but that's not that impressive of a feat compared to what Krillin can do. Like, early Dragon Ball characters were city busters. City busting in the Narutoverse is considered high tier.

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#73 Edited by Thedarkpaladin (22886 posts) - - Show Bio

@goku_black said:
@thedarkpaladin said:
@goku_black said:

@thedarkpaladin: Fortunately it is. You don't have to like it but it is what it is. With the logic you're using (basically moar AOE yada yada) Nardo loses to Roshi, a support character lol How's he contending with Krillin?

Well, Naruto tanked an attack that split the moon no problem. That moon was also terraformed to have a gravity similar to earth, btw, so the attack that split it would naturally require more energy than destroying our own moon, even if the two halves weren't scattered to the point where the moon's own gravity wouldn't pull itself back together.

Someone already did a calc on it a few months back: (It was done assuming the moon was hollow and it didn't take GBE into account)

http://comicvine.gamespot.com/forums/battles-7/saitama-vs-naruto-1774806/?page=5#js-message-16475651

@goku_black said:

@thedarkpaladin: again your initial post tells me you're in no position to tell someone how to formulate an "argument" lol

You'll need a better argument. ABC logic and powerscailing is cute, but it is flimsy at best. Feats are considered on panel evidence of a character's abilities. If you want to argue against on panel evidence with nothing more concrete than speculation, you should probably stop trying to debate.

Lol right, I'll need a better argument. My argument hinges upon manga evidence. Vegeta outright stated who Krillin's foes were comparable to before he one shot them. You're using fan calcs, boy. Stand down lol What's funny is that even one panel evidence has Krillin coming out top. I don't remember Nardo slicing through a guy that could withstand planetary explosions :)

Good for Krillin, but that doesn't change the fact that he lacks any sort of feats to contend with Naruto in just about any category, lol. Can you disprove these calcs? Lmao, Krillin cutting off Freeza's tail is probably the best feat you're going to be able to bring to the table and DB characters have piss poor resistance feats to cutting attacks anyway. Furthermore, his tail was destroyed by Goku's Spirt Bomb which didn't destroy any planets, and this was Freeza in his final form. But hell, we can even ignore that fact for the sake of debate. How is Krillin going to tag Naruto with that in the first place?

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#74 Posted by goku_black (662 posts) - - Show Bio

@goku_black said:
@thedarkpaladin said:
@goku_black said:

@thedarkpaladin: Fortunately it is. You don't have to like it but it is what it is. With the logic you're using (basically moar AOE yada yada) Nardo loses to Roshi, a support character lol How's he contending with Krillin?

Well, Naruto tanked an attack that split the moon no problem. That moon was also terraformed to have a gravity similar to earth, btw, so the attack that split it would naturally require more energy than destroying our own moon, even if the two halves weren't scattered to the point where the moon's own gravity wouldn't pull itself back together.

Someone already did a calc on it a few months back: (It was done assuming the moon was hollow and it didn't take GBE into account)

http://comicvine.gamespot.com/forums/battles-7/saitama-vs-naruto-1774806/?page=5#js-message-16475651

@goku_black said:

@thedarkpaladin: again your initial post tells me you're in no position to tell someone how to formulate an "argument" lol

You'll need a better argument. ABC logic and powerscailing is cute, but it is flimsy at best. Feats are considered on panel evidence of a character's abilities. If you want to argue against on panel evidence with nothing more concrete than speculation, you should probably stop trying to debate.

Lol right, I'll need a better argument. My argument hinges upon manga evidence. Vegeta outright stated who Krillin's foes were comparable to before he one shot them. You're using fan calcs, boy. Stand down lol What's funny is that even one panel evidence has Krillin coming out top. I don't remember Nardo slicing through a guy that could withstand planetary explosions :)

Good for Krillin, but that doesn't change the fact that he lacks any sort of feats to contend with Naruto in just about any category, lol. Can you disprove these calcs? Lmao, Krillin cutting off Freeza's tail is probably the best feat you're going to be able to bring to the table and DB characters have piss poor resistance feats to cutting attacks anyway. Furthermore, his tail was destroyed by Goku's Spirt Bomb which didn't destroy any planets, and this was Freeza in his final form. But hell, we can even ignore that fact for the sake of debate. How is Krillin going to tag Naruto with that in the first place?

Him one shotting guys equal to Raditz suggests otherwise. Who's the most powerful person Naruto has actually bested without aid? I'll wait lmao And there fan calcs, they don't require disproving.We're going by canon here, kid. Keep up. Yep, and that one feat trumps Nardo. DB characters have poor cutting resistance? Wut? Kid Goku takes an axe to the head with raw dura and no ki augmentation? Fends off a sword with a finger? 18 breaks said sword. WUT?? loool And ofc it didn't destroy planets, Goku's the hero remember? Tf does this have to do with anything? Krillin could easily tag Nardo. He has better speed feats as a kid ;)

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#75 Posted by Watertaco (452 posts) - - Show Bio

@goku_black: Ya know, if you keep typing like a 14 year old, nobody is going to take you seriously.

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#76 Posted by goku_black (662 posts) - - Show Bio

@watertaco: You say that but he's clearly debating me and not you. Makes sense.

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#77 Posted by Thedarkpaladin (22886 posts) - - Show Bio

@thedarkpaladin: Powerscaling and ABC logic? Well, that's the only reliable way to gauge Dragon Ball character power levels, unless we are to assume Dragon Ball Roshi > current Goku, since we have yet to see Goku ever destroy a moon.

That's just the type of writer Toriyama is, with rare exceptions (such as Tien stalemating Semi-Perfect Cell, Krillin cutting off Frieza's tail). His style of writing is fundamentally different from Kishi's. Whenever he has a character implied or inferred to be stronger than another, that also correlates with their own destructive capabilities being greater than that character. That's why we don't need it to be spelled out on panel that Goku can bust a planet, that's simply from powerscaling. For another example, look at Krillin's decimation of the Saibamen, whom where all stated to be equal to Raditz. Krillin was well above Raditz at that point, and it showed whenever he completely obliterated them all. That's just DBZ logic.

Regardless, this is a different situation anyways. We know that it's an objective fact that Cell saga Krillin is above Saiyan saga Vegeta, who claimed to be able to bust a planet. You might say that that didn't happen on panel, fine. However, we do see a weaker Piccolo casually bust the moon, and Cell saga Krillin is beyond that same Piccolo.

Naruto isn't tanking multiple moon level blasts like that, it's just not happening. It took him focusing all of his chakra in his arm to tank a moon-splitting attack, but splitting the moon and busting it are two radically different things. Regardless, Krillin can fly, current Naruto can't. And he doesn't have a teleport like Sasuke does to help him. Naruto can spawn in as many clones as he likes, throw as many Rasenshurikens as he likes, fire as many Bijuudamas as he likes; it won't matter if his opponent can simply fly out of it's way. And Krillin certainly has the speed to do it. Krillin could fly up, and use Solar Flare, which would take Naruto completely by surprise, and just nuke the battlefield.

Like, Naruto chopping the tree in half is fine, but that's not that impressive of a feat compared to what Krillin can do. Like, early Dragon Ball characters were city busters. City busting in the Narutoverse is considered high tier.

It's common sense to say that Goku can destroy a moon, especially since he his attacks were stated to be capable of destroying the earth.

I do agree that Toriyama has a different style of writing than Kishi, but his own work contradicts the powerscailing logic to some extent. For example, Yamcha, who was also superior to Raditz was killed by an explosion that showed nowhere near moon level destruction. Krillin was frightened by attacks like this even as far into the series as Namek saga:

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Saiyan saga Vegeta was said to be able to destroy the earth, yet Namek saga Piccolo found it impressive that Freeza was capable of destroying Namek. Krillin was amazed at much weaker attacks:

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So i'm not entirely sure that higher power levels always equate to higher AOE.

As for Cell saga Krillin being stronger than Saiyan saga Vegeta, there isn't anything factual to back it up. Krillin's last canon power level was 13,000. We have no idea how much stronger he became after that. I suppose it isn't unthinkable that he surpassed Vegeta, but there is nothing to back it up.

Naruto actually took Toneri's moon splitting attack head on without taking any real damage, and he wasn't even using his strongest form. In addition, the moon Toneri cut was terraformed to have the same gravity as earth, so it would be more difficult to split apart than our normal moon. Naruto has been able to fly since the fight with Kaguya and spent a good majority of his fight with Sasuke in the air. Naruto can always spam clones and surround Krillin with multiple Bijuu Bombs or Bijuu Rasengans. It only took one Naruto to do this:

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2

Even small fragments from those meteors were completely dwarfing mountain ranges below:

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By the way, even if Krillin tries Solar Flare, Naruto has danger sensing and doesn't even need to use his eyes to fight. He was capable of reacting to and combating Madara's Limbo Clones even though they were invisible:

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City busting was accomplished by Pain. It's nothing compared to high tier Naruto characters, who were effortlessly vaporizing mountain ranges with a simple Bijuu Bomb.

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#78 Posted by Thedarkpaladin (22886 posts) - - Show Bio

@thedarkpaladin said:
@goku_black said:
@thedarkpaladin said:
@goku_black said:

@thedarkpaladin: Fortunately it is. You don't have to like it but it is what it is. With the logic you're using (basically moar AOE yada yada) Nardo loses to Roshi, a support character lol How's he contending with Krillin?

Well, Naruto tanked an attack that split the moon no problem. That moon was also terraformed to have a gravity similar to earth, btw, so the attack that split it would naturally require more energy than destroying our own moon, even if the two halves weren't scattered to the point where the moon's own gravity wouldn't pull itself back together.

Someone already did a calc on it a few months back: (It was done assuming the moon was hollow and it didn't take GBE into account)

http://comicvine.gamespot.com/forums/battles-7/saitama-vs-naruto-1774806/?page=5#js-message-16475651

@goku_black said:

@thedarkpaladin: again your initial post tells me you're in no position to tell someone how to formulate an "argument" lol

You'll need a better argument. ABC logic and powerscailing is cute, but it is flimsy at best. Feats are considered on panel evidence of a character's abilities. If you want to argue against on panel evidence with nothing more concrete than speculation, you should probably stop trying to debate.

Lol right, I'll need a better argument. My argument hinges upon manga evidence. Vegeta outright stated who Krillin's foes were comparable to before he one shot them. You're using fan calcs, boy. Stand down lol What's funny is that even one panel evidence has Krillin coming out top. I don't remember Nardo slicing through a guy that could withstand planetary explosions :)

Good for Krillin, but that doesn't change the fact that he lacks any sort of feats to contend with Naruto in just about any category, lol. Can you disprove these calcs? Lmao, Krillin cutting off Freeza's tail is probably the best feat you're going to be able to bring to the table and DB characters have piss poor resistance feats to cutting attacks anyway. Furthermore, his tail was destroyed by Goku's Spirt Bomb which didn't destroy any planets, and this was Freeza in his final form. But hell, we can even ignore that fact for the sake of debate. How is Krillin going to tag Naruto with that in the first place?

Him one shotting guys equal to Raditz suggests otherwise. Who's the most powerful person Naruto has actually bested without aid? I'll wait lmao And there fan calcs, they don't require disproving.We're going by canon here, kid. Keep up. Yep, and that one feat trumps Nardo. DB characters have poor cutting resistance? Wut? Kid Goku takes an axe to the head with raw dura and no ki augmentation? Fends off a sword with a finger? 18 breaks said sword. WUT?? loool And ofc it didn't destroy planets, Goku's the hero remember? Tf does this have to do with anything? Krillin could easily tag Nardo. He has better speed feats as a kid ;)

Lol, you're really clueless, huh? The moon in Naruto was stated to have been terraformed to support life, and it was clear to anyone who watched the movie that it had the same gravity as earth. Now, Saibamen having Raditz power level is nice and all, but you can't prove what their durability was... at least not with anything but faulty powersailing and speculation, which, again, isn't concrete. Kid Goku tanking an axe swung by a weakling is fine and all, but we later see him losing his tail to a pair of scissors. Hell, final form Freeza lost his tail to an attack that wasn't planet level by feats, so saying that Krillin could cut his tail off when he was in his second form and taken by surprise means jack. Freeza was scared of getting caught in Namek's explosion, so you have no way to prove he can survive something like that in his second form. Goku fended off Trunks' sword by augmenting his finger with ki, and #18 was far stronger than Trunks and had cybernetic enhancements to boot. I like how you ignore the fact that Vegeta had to dodge Yajirobe's sword attacks, though, and that Krillin was only capable of threatening Nappa with a cutting attack. Yes, the Spirit Bomb didn't destroy a planet. You must be getting desperate to try and refute that with "B-but Goku's the hero, remember?". Please, is that why he responsible for destroying King Kai's planet? How about the fact that he could have easily prevented the Androids by gathering the Dragon Balls and finding Dr. Gero's location? Oh, and he also could have beaten Fat Buu as an SSJ3, but chose not to for....reasons. lol

Run along now, bud. I've found someone more sensible to debate against. :)

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#79 Posted by jadenlol (1875 posts) - - Show Bio

krillin still wins.

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#80 Posted by Travis7211997 (167 posts) - - Show Bio

Naruto is not above nappa please stop. Roshi is a moon buster at around 300 power level. Nappa is 4000-5000 range in terms of PL. Naruto universe will never be on par with the dbz universe.

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#81 Posted by jadenlol (1875 posts) - - Show Bio

Naruto is not above nappa please stop. Roshi is a moon buster at around 300 power level. Nappa is 4000-5000 range in terms of PL. Naruto universe will never be on par with the dbz universe.

Nice abc logic Naruto would dog pile Nappa and then hed one-shot roshi.

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#82 Posted by deactivated-5a794b61068b8 (7203 posts) - - Show Bio

By power scaling krillin; by feats naruto

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#83 Posted by jadenlol (1875 posts) - - Show Bio

By power scaling krillin; by feats naruto

that sounds sensible krillin was able to keep up with cell jr who far outclass Naruto but by feats he gets snuffed.

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#84 Posted by deactivated-5a794b61068b8 (7203 posts) - - Show Bio

@jadenlol: IMO, those cell jrs weren't serious at all. I wouldn't try to use that as a feat for krillin. Vegeta and trunks had to struggle to keep up and they were ssj. Krillin likely isn't even on their level pre ssj transformation. He's actually most likely ridiculously below their base forms.

As far as DB goes, I know power scaling is a thing that has to be used. Krillin has terrible feats, and no one really knows 100% when DB characters became light speed. Naruto has better on panel DC feats and he dodged a beam of light after it was fired. But I'll just leave my initial post as it is. Not everyone around here accepts power scaling.

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#85 Edited by Watertaco (452 posts) - - Show Bio

@thedarkpaladin:

but his own work contradicts the powerscailing logic to some extent. For example, Yamcha, who was also superior to Raditz was killed by an explosion that showed nowhere near moon level destruction.

But that's more a problem of Toriyama, no? The guy is knowingly inconsistent. Take a look at this for example:

No Caption Provided

Cell vs Gohan. Cell claims his attack has enough power to destroy the solar system (not even going to open up that can of worms), and the resulting explosion only created a crater. Radtiz blowing up mountains did more damage, yet there is no logical reason that Raditz's attack is stronger than the attack of at least two multi-planet busting attacks.

So what can we infer from this? Either:

1. DBZ characters can "control" (for lack of a better term, I don't know what else to call it) the AOE yields of their attacks.

Or

2. Toriyama is a bad writer.

So when Yamacha is killed by an attack that creates a laughably small crater, you're only left to assume one of the above situations.

I'll have to pull it up, but there was a scene of Piccolo reacting to the crater that resulted from Vegeta blowing himself up against Buu, and he called it "amazing". This is the same Piccolo that can casually bust a planet mind you, and he still finds craters incredible. Quite frankly, you can chalk up all of this nonsense to WIS. Toriyama doesn't understand his own characters, and that harms debates like this, because there is no logical consistency.

As for Cell saga Krillin being stronger than Saiyan saga Vegeta, there isn't anything factual to back it up. Krillin's last canon power level was 13,000. We have no idea how much stronger he became after that. I suppose it isn't unthinkable that he surpassed Vegeta, but there is nothing to back it up.

You might be right on this part, so forgive me. I was trying to gauge Krillin's performances against Dodoria and Ginyu-Goku and assumed he was at least stronger than 18,000, but that's probably wrong. However, you can't deny that the concept of things like power levels encourage at least some form of powerscaling. That's not to say that characters with weaker power levels are helpless against opponents with larger ones (Yajirobe cutting off Vegeta's tail as an example). We do know, without a doubt, that Cell saga Krillin is well above the Piccolo that casually busted the moon. I don't think it's too much of stretch to say that Krillin could easily do the same, if both Piccolo and Roshi could do it.

Naruto actually took Toneri's moon splitting attack head on without taking any real damage, and he wasn't even using his strongest form. In addition, the moon Toneri cut was terraformed to have the same gravity as earth, so it would be more difficult to split apart than our normal moon.

I'm aware of that, and in fact I read that thread where that poster calculated that the Narutoverse moon is at least denser than our own. However, that goes out the window when your opponent can casually launch multiple of those attacks. That was Toneri's strongest attack. And while yes, Naruto did not suffer any damage whatsoever from that attack, he did in fact block it with all of his chakra cloak focused on his forearm. It's not like he just casually tanked it without taking necessary precautions. If you have a guy who can spam multiple of those level of attacks, I'm not sure how well Naruto can tank that. And while that was a weaker form of Naruto's (speaking of which, was there any logical reason he wasn't using his BM form, I feel like Toriyama isn't the only one guilty of inconsistency here) Naruto is capable of being stabbed in his stronger form after all:

No Caption Provided

And I doubt that sword > Toneri's feat.

Naruto has been able to fly since the fight with Kaguya and spent a good majority of his fight with Sasuke in the air. Naruto can always spam clones and surround Krillin with multiple Bijuu Bombs

I'm well aware of this, but he did that in a different form, is what I'm saying. When did Naruto ever fly in his Bijuu sage mode? Sure, he can fly when he's enhanced with Rikudou chakra, but he has yet to do it in his Bijuu form. I was under the impression that they were two separate forms, right? And if Naruto can fly without it, why didn't he do so against Momoshiki?

Even small fragments from those meteors were completely dwarfing mountain ranges below

I hope I'm not coming off as trying to low-ball Naruto here, as him casually busting those meteors is impressive. But it's not like Krillin can't do that either. But Madara's slowly falling meteors were large targets that were easy to hit. Krillin is a smaller target whom Naruto would have a much harder time hitting. Especially since Krillin has the added maneuverability of flight.

By the way, even if Krillin tries Solar Flare, Naruto has danger sensing and doesn't even need to use his eyes to fight. He was capable of reacting to and combating Madara's Limbo Clones even though they were invisible:

True enough, but characters that have Solar Flare used on them tend to recoil in pain for a couple of seconds to minutes, without fail. I see no reason why Naruto would recover from being blinded by it faster than other Dragon Ball characters.

City busting was accomplished by Pain. It's nothing compared to high tier Naruto characters, who were effortlessly vaporizing mountain ranges with a simple Bijuu Bomb.

Now hang on a second; you say that as if Nagato is some low tier chump. His feat of destroying Konoha was treated in universe as a hopeless situation, until Naruto arrived on the battlefield. Also, Kakahsi (a top tiered character himself), was amazed at the Juubi blowing up towns and cities. So it's still considered an impressive feat in universe, by even the high tiers.

And really, how many characters can bust cities in the Narutoverse? Only the characters with strong enough AOE, so guys like Naruto, Madara, Sasuke (he did bust a meteor with his chidori after all), Kakashi. Yet other high tiered people like 8th gate Guy might not have the sheer AOE capability to do it (not saying Guy can't bust a city though). And Guy almost killed Madara in his strongest form, by his own admission.

What I'm saying is that high tiered characters in the Narutoverse were impressed by it, but we have Nappa doing that with two fingers, and I don't think Nappa is considered "high tiered" by the time of the Cell saga (hell, even in the Namek saga there were opponents who dwarfed him in power).

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#86 Posted by Thedarkpaladin (22886 posts) - - Show Bio

@jadenlol said:
@vermillion0831 said:

By power scaling krillin; by feats naruto

that sounds sensible krillin was able to keep up with cell jr who far outclass Naruto but by feats he gets snuffed.

To be fair, Krillin was sort of getting his ass handed to him by the Cell Jr. Vegeta was about even with them, so if we go by power scailing, Krillin, who was much weaker than #17 and #18 at the time should count himself lucky he didn't die. lol

Although, i do agree that Krillin could win here by using powerscailing, assuming the scaling is used correctly that is.

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#87 Posted by Thedarkpaladin (22886 posts) - - Show Bio

@watertaco: Nice post. I'll respond to it later today when i have some free time.

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#88 Posted by Watertaco (452 posts) - - Show Bio

@thedarkpaladin: Thanks, that took me forever to type up.

Now I'm tired and going to bed.

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#89 Edited by goku_black (662 posts) - - Show Bio

@thedarkpaladin said:
@goku_black said:
@thedarkpaladin said:
@goku_black said:
@thedarkpaladin said:
@goku_black said:

@thedarkpaladin: Fortunately it is. You don't have to like it but it is what it is. With the logic you're using (basically moar AOE yada yada) Nardo loses to Roshi, a support character lol How's he contending with Krillin?

Well, Naruto tanked an attack that split the moon no problem. That moon was also terraformed to have a gravity similar to earth, btw, so the attack that split it would naturally require more energy than destroying our own moon, even if the two halves weren't scattered to the point where the moon's own gravity wouldn't pull itself back together.

Someone already did a calc on it a few months back: (It was done assuming the moon was hollow and it didn't take GBE into account)

http://comicvine.gamespot.com/forums/battles-7/saitama-vs-naruto-1774806/?page=5#js-message-16475651

@goku_black said:

@thedarkpaladin: again your initial post tells me you're in no position to tell someone how to formulate an "argument" lol

You'll need a better argument. ABC logic and powerscailing is cute, but it is flimsy at best. Feats are considered on panel evidence of a character's abilities. If you want to argue against on panel evidence with nothing more concrete than speculation, you should probably stop trying to debate.

Lol right, I'll need a better argument. My argument hinges upon manga evidence. Vegeta outright stated who Krillin's foes were comparable to before he one shot them. You're using fan calcs, boy. Stand down lol What's funny is that even one panel evidence has Krillin coming out top. I don't remember Nardo slicing through a guy that could withstand planetary explosions :)

Good for Krillin, but that doesn't change the fact that he lacks any sort of feats to contend with Naruto in just about any category, lol. Can you disprove these calcs? Lmao, Krillin cutting off Freeza's tail is probably the best feat you're going to be able to bring to the table and DB characters have piss poor resistance feats to cutting attacks anyway. Furthermore, his tail was destroyed by Goku's Spirt Bomb which didn't destroy any planets, and this was Freeza in his final form. But hell, we can even ignore that fact for the sake of debate. How is Krillin going to tag Naruto with that in the first place?

Him one shotting guys equal to Raditz suggests otherwise. Who's the most powerful person Naruto has actually bested without aid? I'll wait lmao And there fan calcs, they don't require disproving.We're going by canon here, kid. Keep up. Yep, and that one feat trumps Nardo. DB characters have poor cutting resistance? Wut? Kid Goku takes an axe to the head with raw dura and no ki augmentation? Fends off a sword with a finger? 18 breaks said sword. WUT?? loool And ofc it didn't destroy planets, Goku's the hero remember? Tf does this have to do with anything? Krillin could easily tag Nardo. He has better speed feats as a kid ;)

Lol, you're really clueless, huh? The moon in Naruto was stated to have been terraformed to support life, and it was clear to anyone who watched the movie that it had the same gravity as earth. Now, Saibamen having Raditz power level is nice and all, but you can't prove what their durability was... at least not with anything but faulty powersailing and speculation, which, again, isn't concrete. Kid Goku tanking an axe swung by a weakling is fine and all, but we later see him losing his tail to a pair of scissors. Hell, final form Freeza lost his tail to an attack that wasn't planet level by feats, so saying that Krillin could cut his tail off when he was in his second form and taken by surprise means jack. Freeza was scared of getting caught in Namek's explosion, so you have no way to prove he can survive something like that in his second form. Goku fended off Trunks' sword by augmenting his finger with ki, and #18 was far stronger than Trunks and had cybernetic enhancements to boot. I like how you ignore the fact that Vegeta had to dodge Yajirobe's sword attacks, though, and that Krillin was only capable of threatening Nappa with a cutting attack. Yes, the Spirit Bomb didn't destroy a planet. You must be getting desperate to try and refute that with "B-but Goku's the hero, remember?". Please, is that why he responsible for destroying King Kai's planet? How about the fact that he could have easily prevented the Androids by gathering the Dragon Balls and finding Dr. Gero's location? Oh, and he also could have beaten Fat Buu as an SSJ3, but chose not to for....reasons. lol

Run along now, bud. I've found someone more sensible to debate against. :)

You're clueless, the moon was hollow lol. The proof is in Vegeta's statement. Burden of proof is on those who believe they are less durable when Vegeta stated they're Raditz's equal. Good luck with that. Yeah and a saiyan's tail, unless trained, is their weak point. Terrible argument lol. Moreover, you apply the obvious weakpoint of one set of extraterrestrials to the entirety of the verse. Weak af. Try harder. Since we've now established that this poor resistance to cutting is but a mere fanfic of yours or rather you simply grasping at straws, I think it's more logical to assume that Krillin's destructo disk simply hits far above it's paygrade, as it's been consistently shown to do throughout the series, discounting filler ofc. And nope, it's a feat for Krillin to have cut someone capable of withstanding that. Even without it, Piccolo, the moon buster like 3 powerups ago, bombarded Freeza with a plethora of blasts throughout their fight yet to not avail, so it still has the feats to end Naruto regardless. Vegeta dodged Yajirobe because it's normal to dodge your attackers. You're reaching and you have nothing else to support poor cutting resistance lol. You tried though I guess. Whether the Spirit Bomb busts a planet or not is something you brought up. I honestly don't care if it does or not. Kaio specically states "if you're not careful you could destroy the planet" Clearly Goku is quite careful and knows what he's doing. Easily refuted. Try again. All of that you just said has convinced me, Goku would willingly destroy a planet in-character for not wanting to kill someone who hadn't yet committed a crime, or finish Buu due to reasons he gave later on in the saga. This certainly proves Goku would destroy a planet if it meant winning lol! You're reaching for the stars right now. What's more, why're you rambling about Goku anyway? He isn't in this match.

Concession accepted though :)

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#90 Edited by Thedarkpaladin (22886 posts) - - Show Bio

@goku_black:

You're clueless, the moon was hollow lol.

Completely irrelevant. If you actually bothered to check the link, you would know that the calc was made using a hollow moon. Although i'd love to see you prove the entire moon is hollow, rather than just a small portion of it.

The proof is in Vegeta's statement. Burden of proof is on those who believe they are less durable when Vegeta stated they're Raditz's equal.

I think you should do yourself a favor and try to actually read Dragon Ball, it may help you a bit in debates. First of all, Vegeta didn't make that statement - Nappa did. Second, you're not even using the burden of proof correctly here, probably because you failed to interpret my words correctly. I asked you to prove what their durability was. Saying they're as durable as Raditz means nothing unless you can show some durability feats for either Raditz or the Saibamen.

Yeah and a saiyan's tail, unless trained, is their weak point. Terrible argument lol. Moreover, you apply the obvious weakpoint of one set of extraterrestrials to the entirety of the verse.

Oh, is that a fact, because i was under the impression that it was only considered their weak point when someone grabs a hold of it and squeezes really hard. Hell, your point here can be destroyed by bringing up Vegeta as an example. Both he Nappa trained their tails to the point where they overcame that weakness, yet that didn't stop a weakling like Yajirobe from cutting it off, now did it? You also conveniently ignore the fact that Vegeta's body was just as vulnerable:

No Caption Provided

Even Freeza lost his tail twice on Namek, and neither instance was because of to a planet level attack...

And of course, you conveniently ignored how Krillin was only able to injure Nappa with a cutting attack.

Weak af. Try harder.

Says the guy who ignores my points. lol

Since we've now established that this poor resistance to cutting is but a mere fanfic of yours or rather you simply grasping at straws, I think it's more logical to assume that Krillin's destructo disk simply hits far above it's paygrade, as it's been consistently shown to do throughout the series, discounting filler ofc.

The key word here is "assume", which is basically what your entire argument hinges on - assumptions. At least try to back up your claims with something concrete for once in your life.

And nope, it's a feat for Krillin to have cut someone capable of withstanding that.

Not unless you can prove that second form Freeza can tank a planet busting attack.

Even without it, Piccolo, the moon buster like 3 powerups ago, bombarded Freeza with a plethora of blasts throughout their fight yet to not avail, so it still has the feats to end Naruto regardless.

Naruto tanked an attack that cut through a moon, which was calced as greater than Piccolo's moon busting feat, without taking so much as a scratch and he wasn't even in his strongest form. You can't even verify Cell saga Krillin's destructive capacity even if we say he can at least replicate Piccolo's moon feat by the Namek saga. So once again, your argument is at a standstill.

Vegeta dodged Yajirobe because it's normal to dodge your attackers. You're reaching and you have nothing else to support poor cutting resistance lol.

Wrong. Yajirobe's sword did damage to him on panel:

No Caption Provided

And why would he need to resort to dodging anything from someone like Yajirobe when didn't even bother to move out of the way against this:

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2

Using your own logic, he wouldn't need to dodge an attack from someone as pathetic as Yajirobe when he could easily tank a blast head on from someone like Krillin.

Whether the Spirit Bomb busts a planet or not is something you brought up. I honestly don't care if it does or not.

Seeing as how you were trying to reach with the whole "Krillin injured someone who can tank a planet buster" argument, i thought it was only appropriate to bring up the fact that a stronger Freeza lost his tail against a non planet busting attack, twice.

Kaio specically states "if you're not careful you could destroy the planet" Clearly Goku is quite careful and knows what he's doing. Easily refuted.

Except Goku himself said that he didn't want to use the Spirit Bomb on Namek in fear of destroying the planet, but if he didn't beat Freeza, the entire universe would be in danger. That alone shows that he was more than willing to take the risk, yet it still didn't happen. Easily refuted indeed.

All of that you just said has convinced me, Goku would willingly destroy a planet in-character for not wanting to kill someone who hadn't yet committed a crime, or finish Buu due to reasons he gave later on in the saga.

Yeah, some hero, right? I guess that shoots down your previous "B-but Goku's the hero, remember?" But don't take my word for it.... Let's see what Toriyama has to say about this:

"Toriyama: At any rate, I wanted him to have the sense of being that rare guy who seeks only “to become stronger than before”, so much so that it feels like “there’s no one as pure as this person”. And while he does end up saving everyone as a result of that, he himself at least has a very pure sincerity about “wanting to become stronger”. What I wanted to depict the most was the sense that he might not be a good guy at all, although he does do good things as a result."

Yeah, real convincing....

This certainly proves Goku would destroy a planet if it meant winning lol! You're reaching for the stars right now. What's more, why're you rambling about Goku anyway? He isn't in this match.

Which is exactly the risk he was willing to take against Freeza. Goku was only brought up to debunk your nonsense about Krillin injuring someone who can tank a planet buster, not that you can prove the Freeza Krillin took by surprise can tank a planet busting attack...

Concession accepted though :)

Better luck next time.

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#91 Posted by AlexTheBoss (15793 posts) - - Show Bio

@goku_black: In the anime it was made clear Naruto dodged the beam, but I will agree the attack actually being lightspeed isn't confirmed in the manga, only a guide book. However even without that feat Naruto's speed is still comparable to 8 gates Guy who was warping space he was moving so fast. Naruto and Krililn should both be high hypersonic. Naruto without a doubt has better strength feats though.

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#92 Posted by AlexTheBoss (15793 posts) - - Show Bio

@watertaco: When Cell saga Goku charged his kamehameha everyone was afraid that it would blow up the planet, so that's what kind of confirmed he was a planet buster if you don't want to use power scaling. Also the explosion from his spirit bomb could be considered a moon level attack. It looked to be above moon level tbh.

The problem with dragon ball characters is they are as strong as they need to be. Krillin usually needs to be weak, so he is weak. RoF is a good example of this type of writing. Frieza is the type of person to be strong so he automatically became stronger than everyone. Frieza soldiers are fodder so even master Roshi became stronger than them. They wanted to have one semi strong Frieza soldier so they made Piccolo struggle with a Zarbon level opponent even though that makes no sense.

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#93 Posted by Thedarkpaladin (22886 posts) - - Show Bio

@watertaco:

But that's more a problem of Toriyama, no? The guy is knowingly inconsistent. Take a look at this for example:

That's true, but the inconsistency makes it even more difficult to gauge the power of a character like Krillin, who is consistently set up to fail by none other than Toriyama himself.

Cell vs Gohan. Cell claims his attack has enough power to destroy the solar system (not even going to open up that can of worms), and the resulting explosion only created a crater. Radtiz blowing up mountains did more damage, yet there is no logical reason that Raditz's attack is stronger than the attack of at least two multi-planet busting attacks.

I suppose the lack of destruction could have simply been due to how the Kamehameha was fired. Think of it like this: Goku would have destroyed the earth with his Kamehameha had he fired it from the air and directly aimed it at the ground. He was only able to minimize the destruction by using Instant Transmisson to teleport in front of Cell. In other words, the earth only seems to be in danger when characters fly up into sky and aim their attacks at the ground...at least most of the time anyway. Of course, there are a few instances where this isn't the case.

So what can we infer from this? Either:

1. DBZ characters can "control" (for lack of a better term, I don't know what else to call it) the AOE yields of their attacks.

Or

2. Toriyama is a bad writer.

So when Yamacha is killed by an attack that creates a laughably small crater, you're only left to assume one of the above situations.

Well, I certainly don't believe the characters can control the AoE of their more powerful attacks. If that was the case, Goku and Vegeta would never have to worry about destroying the earth with techniques like Kamehameha and Final Flash.

I'll have to pull it up, but there was a scene of Piccolo reacting to the crater that resulted from Vegeta blowing himself up against Buu, and he called it "amazing". This is the same Piccolo that can casually bust a planet mind you, and he still finds craters incredible. Quite frankly, you can chalk up all of this nonsense to WIS.

Didn't Piccolo only say that in the anime, though? I can't seem to find a scan for it at the moment. Regardless, it could be a touch of WIS or it might simply he that Vegeta's attack didn't have enough AoE to destroy the earth, which would also be strange considering Cell was supposedly able to destroy the earth using a similar method. Still, the size of the explosion was nothing to laugh at:

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2

But I completely agree with this:

"Toriyama doesn't understand his own characters, and that harms debates like this, because there is no logical consistency."

You might be right on this part, so forgive me. I was trying to gauge Krillin's performances against Dodoria and Ginyu-Goku and assumed he was at least stronger than 18,000, but that's probably wrong. However, you can't deny that the concept of things like power levels encourage at least some form of powerscaling. That's not to say that characters with weaker power levels are helpless against opponents with larger ones (Yajirobe cutting off Vegeta's tail as an example). We do know, without a doubt, that Cell saga Krillin is well above the Piccolo that casually busted the moon. I don't think it's too much of stretch to say that Krillin could easily do the same, if both Piccolo and Roshi could do it.

I'm not saying he didn't surpass 18,000 by the Cell Saga, just that there's really no way to be 100% sure. I also agree that powerscaling seems to be somewhat of a requirement when it comes to gauging Dragon Ball characters' strength. The only problem is that people tend to use incorrect methods of scailing more often than not. At the very least, Krillin should have the power to destroy a moon, but the at the same time, I'm not sure if any of his attacks can produce a large enough AoE to actually replicate the feat, unless he can make a big enough Kamehameha.

I'm aware of that, and in fact I read that thread where that poster calculated that the Narutoverse moon is at least denser than our own. However, that goes out the window when your opponent can casually launch multiple of those attacks. That was Toneri's strongest attack. And while yes, Naruto did not suffer any damage whatsoever from that attack, he did in fact block it with all of his chakra cloak focused on his forearm. It's not like he just casually tanked it without taking necessary precautions. If you have a guy who can spam multiple of those level of attacks, I'm not sure how well Naruto can tank that. And while that was a weaker form of Naruto's (speaking of which, was there any logical reason he wasn't using his BM form,

Naruto tanked the attack that actually split the moon. You're thinking of when he overpowered the extension of Toneri's blade. Pay close attention to the bottom left corner of the gif because it's easy to miss:

No Caption Provided

I also have my doubts about Krillin being cabable of spamming multiple moon busting attacks. Maybe if he put all of his power into a Destructo Disk or Kamehameha, he could get one or two off, but I don't see why Naruto can't just dodge or fool him with clones.

As for why he didn't decide to use BM or RM, I have no idea. Maybe he didn't feel like it was necessary.

I feel like Toriyama isn't the only one guilty of inconsistency here) Naruto is capable of being stabbed in his stronger form after all:

And I doubt that sword > Toneri's feat.

Hmm, I think Shin used his powers to manipulate the weapon into stabbing Naruto, so maybe he was able to manipulate it with enough force to pierce an unsuspecting Naruto. After all, Sasuke's sword is capable of effortlessly cutting through the Shinjuu, as seen in the Boruto movie.

I'm well aware of this, but he did that in adifferent form, is what I'm saying. When did Naruto ever fly in his Bijuu sage mode? Sure, he can fly when he's enhanced with Rikudou chakra, but he has yet to do it in his Bijuu form. I was under the impression that they were two separate forms, right? And if Naruto can fly without it, why didn't he do so against Momoshiki?

Well, Naruto did fly during his fight with Toneri and he was only using KCM at the time. If he can fly in KCM mode, I see no reason why he wouldn't be able to do it in his stronger forms.

I hope I'm not coming off as trying to low-ball Naruto here, as him casually busting those meteors is impressive. But it's not like Krillin can't do that either. But Madara's slowly falling meteors were large targets that were easy to hit. Krillin is a smaller target whom Naruto would have a much harder time hitting. Especially since Krillin has the added maneuverability of flight.

Nah, you're fine. And i do believe that Krillin has enough power to do the same, but as I was saying before, can any of his attacks actually cause a large enough AoE which would be required to replicate what Naruto did? I'm not so sure, especially considering how he was impressed by Recoome and Freeza's attacks which showed nowhere near that amount of destruction. Don't get me wrong, i'm not trying to compare them to someone as weak as Naruto; they could obviously one-shot him anytime they felt like it, but at the same time, they're both far out of Krillin's league as well. I don't necessarily think that Madara's meteors were falling slow, it's just that Naruto and Sasuke were able to react to them fast enough. After all, he was able to tag Kaguya with a similar attack, and she's easily the fastest character in Naruto when it comes to flight:

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2

Based on how we see the curvature of the planet, that attack would have an exceptional amount of destructive capacity.

As for an example of Kaguya's speed, here we see her react to a teleportation blitz from Sasuke (keep in mind, they were fighting under increased gravity):

No Caption Provided

True enough, but characters that have Solar Flare used on them tend to recoil in pain for a couple of seconds to minutes, without fail. I see no reason why Naruto would recover from being blinded by it faster than other Dragon Ball characters.

Indeed, but can we be sure it would cause enough pain for Naruto not to be able to evade Krillin? I mean, I don't think his sight would come back any faster than it does for Dragon Ball characters or anything, and he would be stunned by it for a second or two, but I don't think we can be sure that it will be enough for Krillin to to one-shot him in that brief period of time. I know the few times he has used the technique, his opponents (Dodoria and Freeza) recovered pretty quickly.

Now hang on a second; you say that as if Nagato is some low tier chump. His feat of destroying Konoha was treated in universe as a hopeless situation, until Naruto arrived on the battlefield. Also, Kakahsi (a top tiered character himself), was amazed at the Juubi blowing up towns and cities. So it's still considered an impressive feat in universe, by even the high tiers.

A healthy Nagato with his own body is certainly a force to be reckoned with, but it was just Deva Path that destroyed Konoha, and that isn't even his most destructive attack - that would be Chibaku Tensei. As for the Juubi, he can produce attacks that absolutely trump all of the Bijuu's Bijuu Bombs, which are already capable of vaporizing mountains. It would take a considerable amount of energy alone to vaporize a mountain. Additionally, Kakashi isn't really a character with impressive AoE attacks. I'm sure Raikage was said to be stronger than Bee, but he definitely isn't packing as much destructive force as the latter. Then we have characters like Rikudou Naruto and Rinnegan Sasuke who are both capable of much more, and even Kaguya, who's said to be able to completely erase her own dimensions, which at least consist of a planet and moon. I think one of them had a sun, but I personally doubt she's capable of destroying that.

And really, how many characters can bust cities in the Narutoverse? Only the characters with strong enough AOE, so guys like Naruto, Madara, Sasuke (he did bust a meteor with his chidori after all), Kakashi. Yet other high tiered people like 8th gate Guy might not have the sheer AOE capability to do it (not saying Guycan't bust a city though). And Guy almost killed Madara in his strongest form, by his own admission.

But that's my point. Not all characters are going to have impressive AoE attacks just because they're implied to be top tiers. This is why I have my doubts about Krillin being capable of actually destroying multiple moons with one attack. Shit, I've heard people argue against Android #17 and #18 being able to actually one-shot a planet simply because they lack any large scale AoE attacks, even though they're both canonically stronger than Freeza.

What I'm saying is that high tiered characters in the Narutoverse were impressed by it, but we have Nappa doing that with two fingers, and I don't think Nappa is considered "high tiered" by the time of the Cell saga (hell, even in the Namek saga there were opponents who dwarfed him in power).

Yeah, he's not in terms of power and speed, but a Krillin with a power level of 13,000 was downright terrified of attacks that warped the landscape, and Naruto has actually shown more impressive AoE attacks than that. Just saying, I don't think Krillin has ever been a fighter that specializes on AoE attacks like Goku, Vegeta, Freeza, Cell, etc.

By the way, I apologize for taking longer than I originally thought i would to reply to this. I actually tred to reply to you earlier, but Comicvine ate my post so I had to retype it. Don't you love it when that happens? Lol

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#94 Posted by Watertaco (452 posts) - - Show Bio

@thedarkpaladin: No need for apology, comic vine sucks to be honest with you, not surprised it fucks up posts.

Nice long post, I'll get to you later today or tomorrow, have some things to do before I can get back on, but it shouldn't take too long.

I'm way too tired right now....

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#95 Edited by Thedarkpaladin (22886 posts) - - Show Bio

@watertaco: I feel you. I'm probably going to be too busy to respond tomorrow so take your time.

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#96 Posted by deactivated-57c3cf21b495e (2448 posts) - - Show Bio

@thedarkpaladin: You know, it's a bit surreal to see you defending Naruto and debating in favor of the series.

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#97 Posted by Thedarkpaladin (22886 posts) - - Show Bio
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#98 Posted by deactivated-57c3cf21b495e (2448 posts) - - Show Bio

@thedarkpaladin: Just feels like a bit of a turn around from the "old days".

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#99 Posted by Thedarkpaladin (22886 posts) - - Show Bio

@marczaddy: Wait... old days? But you're fairly new here, at least on this account? Have I met you under a different username? 0_0

But anyway, I defend which character I think would win. If we were talking about someone like Goku and Vegeta, I would probably be debating against Naruto right now.

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#100 Posted by deactivated-57c3cf21b495e (2448 posts) - - Show Bio

@marczaddy: Wait... old days? But you're fairly new here, at least on this account? Have I met you under a different username? 0_0

Naw, I've browsed this site for like 2 years. I only recently made an account, which I slightly regret.

But anyway, I defend which character I think would win. If we were talking about someone like Goku and Vegeta, I would probably be debating against Naruto right now.

I met nothing by it, just noting this strangeness, to me, off it all. I respect that you can come objective in these discussions. I know a lot of our fellow "debaters" can't. Like your buddy, @goku_black.