@randybutternubs: I really wanna know if you think Kung Lao can defeat Shao Kahn or not. Not if he's supposed to, but if he Can.
we can run in circles with the inconsistencies all you want, but all you got is Kung Lao beating other Jobbers as well. Quan Chi and Shang Tsung had no wins under their belt at this point of the story. The deadly alliance are a joke in the new timeline. They even sadder than the Kombat kids, I'd argue
@randybutternubs: Again, it was made perfectly clear his spine was not healed. Him doing anything with a damage spine is a feat in and of itself
@randybutternubs: I really wanna know if you think Kung Lao can defeat Shao Kahn or not. Not if he's supposed to, but if he Can.
I never said or thought he could but I fail to see how this matters since Kotal was humilated by Shao Kahn twice.
we can run in circles with the inconsistencies all you want, but all you got is Kung Lao beating other Jobbers as well. Quan Chi and Shang Tsung had no wins under their belt at this point of the story. The deadly alliance are a joke in the new timeline. They even sadder than the Kombat kids, I'd argue
Kotal has more inconsistencies in the current timeline though and he was intended to be around Shao Kahns level. Kombat Kids that defeated him had no showings prior to it. At least Quan Chi could harm Raiden with his magical attacks. Deadly Alliance are more established obviously and Kombat Kids were rookies who lost a training exercise but still defeated Kotal Kahn. Way more humilating.
@randybutternubs: Again, it was made perfectly clear his spine was not healed. Him doing anything with a damage spine is a feat in and of itself
Did I not acknowledge that? I'll say it again, read my post carefully. Considering Sheeva show know sign of injury during the fight is not an impressive feat for Kotal injured or not.
@randybutternubs: His main inconsistencies are four Specific fights. Two can be explained through the conditions of the fight (Couldn't use his magic against Jacqui/ had a damaged spine against Sheeva) the other two are left with no explanation, one could argue that they were outliers that Contradict Kotal's feats, and it'd be a fitting argument, but Jade is a competent fighter herself, while Kung Jin just has no moments of showcasing weakness, meaning that a loss to him would either bring Kung Jin up the ladder, or it would mean that Kung Jin's genuine competence is higher than given credit for.
Kung Jin actually has to do some Jobbing for that defeat to be deemed a feat against Kotal. Otherwise, it reaches a moot point
It is a relevant question when you bring his defeats against Shao Kahn, but won't speak on how Kung Lao would fair in the same situation. In which it has never gone in his favor. Kotal's 1/3 against Shao Kahn is better than Kung Lao's 0/1. And whether or not Kung Lao was supposed to beat him is less relevant to the fact that he can't beat him. Not even in the past timeline
@randybutternubs: You acknowledged that they stalemated. My point is that an Injured Kotal could match a Healthy Sheeva in a stalemate, meanwhile, We can't really guarantee that Sheeva could beat Kotal if he was fully powered, since Kotal pushed her back, meaning that feat can't be used against him since he had a legitimate reason for losing.
@randybutternubs: His main inconsistencies are four Specific fights. Two can be explained through the conditions of the fight (Couldn't use his magic against Jacqui/ had a damaged spine against Sheeva) the other two are left with no explanation, one could argue that they were outliers that Contradict Kotal's feats, and it'd be a fitting argument, but Jade is a competent fighter herself, while Kung Jin just has no moments of showcasing weakness, meaning that a loss to him would either bring Kung Jin up the ladder, or it would mean that Kung Jin's genuine competence is higher than given credit for.
Kotal should still be above a person like Jacqui without the need of the sun should he not? Are you telling me he is complete fodder without it? That is pretty bad. Jade is competent but Kotal was obviously intented to be Shao Kahns level and the fact that he lost to her doesn't make sense. Kung Jin just doesn't have any impressive showings. All he did was defeat some Kahn guards and Ferra/Torr who also have zero feats. Kotal losing to someone that has next to none good showings is bad.
Kung Jin actually has to do some Jobbing for that defeat to be deemed a feat against Kotal. Otherwise, it reaches a moot point
He doesn't have to do jobbing. If a supposed high tier loses to someone with barley any feats or and defeats nothing but defeat fodder then that would place Kotal Kahn lower than intended. Baraka was destroying fodder yet he has lost in every fight he has been in canon. If a character continues to lose to people far below him in feats or having next to no showings something is wrong, its common sense though.
@randybutternubs: You acknowledged that they stalemated. My point is that an Injured Kotal could match a Healthy Sheeva in a stalemate, meanwhile, We can't really guarantee that Sheeva could beat Kotal if he was fully powered, since Kotal pushed her back, meaning that feat can't be used against him since he had a legitimate reason for losing.
He didn't match her when he lost. wrestling someone for a few seconds then proceeding to losing is not a stalemate. the definition of a stalemate is where something concludes as a draw, this was not a draw. Sad that I have to explain this but I will if I must. A push means nothing. If the feat can't be used against him it shouldn't be counted as a feat for him in the first place since prior to Aftermath Sheeva had no record of any victories or fights of that matter. Don't bring it up because its moot because since it doesn't count against him nor does it benefit him since he did no harm or injury to Sheeva.
@randybutternubs: His main inconsistencies are four Specific fights. Two can be explained through the conditions of the fight (Couldn't use his magic against Jacqui/ had a damaged spine against Sheeva) the other two are left with no explanation, one could argue that they were outliers that Contradict Kotal's feats, and it'd be a fitting argument, but Jade is a competent fighter herself, while Kung Jin just has no moments of showcasing weakness, meaning that a loss to him would either bring Kung Jin up the ladder, or it would mean that Kung Jin's genuine competence is higher than given credit for.
Kotal should still be above a person like Jacqui without the need of the sun should he not? Are you telling me he is complete fodder without it? That is pretty bad. Jade is competent but Kotal was obviously intented to be Shao Kahns level and the fact that he lost to her doesn't make sense. Kung Jin just doesn't have any impressive showings. All he did was defeat some Kahn guards and Ferra/Torr who also have zero feats. Kotal losing to someone that has next to none good showings is bad.
Except even in his fight with Jacqui, Kotal gets up immediately after with no visible injuries, as Kotal's men surround them. In Kotal's battle against Jacqui, he had everything against him and he gets up as if nothing happened.
As opposed to his fight with Kung Jin where he Couldn't get up and was struggling, in spite of having all his magic. That makes Kung Jin even more impressive and arguably stronger than Jacqui and arguably Takeda if you wanna push it
Kung Jin actually has to do some Jobbing for that defeat to be deemed a feat against Kotal. Otherwise, it reaches a moot point
He doesn't have to do jobbing. If a supposed high tier loses to someone with barley any feats or and nothing but defeat fodder
Then that is a feat for the featless character, not the other way around. Especially when he does better than Jacqui who had every advantage and didn't seem to truly harm him by the end, even if she won
@randybutternubs: It's a stalemate in terms of standard strength, especially when we have nothing before or after that could deem Sheeva as capable of doing more than what she did against Kotal. Kotal had a disadvantage and still held his own.
If Kung Lao was in the same position, Damaged spine against Sheeva, can you guarantee that he'd emerge victorious, If not, then how could you use it against someone who's just as vulnerable to the same logic
@randybutternubs: His main inconsistencies are four Specific fights. Two can be explained through the conditions of the fight (Couldn't use his magic against Jacqui/ had a damaged spine against Sheeva) the other two are left with no explanation, one could argue that they were outliers that Contradict Kotal's feats, and it'd be a fitting argument, but Jade is a competent fighter herself, while Kung Jin just has no moments of showcasing weakness, meaning that a loss to him would either bring Kung Jin up the ladder, or it would mean that Kung Jin's genuine competence is higher than given credit for.
Kotal should still be above a person like Jacqui without the need of the sun should he not? Are you telling me he is complete fodder without it? That is pretty bad. Jade is competent but Kotal was obviously intented to be Shao Kahns level and the fact that he lost to her doesn't make sense. Kung Jin just doesn't have any impressive showings. All he did was defeat some Kahn guards and Ferra/Torr who also have zero feats. Kotal losing to someone that has next to none good showings is bad.
Except even in his fight with Jacqui, Kotal gets up immediately after with no visible injuries, as Kotal's men surround them. In Kotal's battle against Jacqui, he had everything against him and he gets up as if nothing happened.
But he lost though, the fact remains is that he lost to someone with little to no feats. He can't even 1v1 a rookie SF member, all those "years of combat experience" yielded no advantage.
As opposed to his fight with Kung Jin where he Couldn't get up and was struggling, in spite of having all his magic. That makes Kung Jin even more impressive and arguably stronger than Jacqui and arguably Takeda if you wanna push it
Sure good feat for Kung Jin, anti feat for Kotal Kahn since prior to their fight Kung Jin had zero feats.
Kung Jin actually has to do some Jobbing for that defeat to be deemed a feat against Kotal. Otherwise, it reaches a moot point
He doesn't have to do jobbing. If a supposed high tier loses to someone with barley any feats or and nothing but defeat fodder
Then that is a feat for the featless character, not the other way around. Especially when he does better than Jacqui who had every advantage and didn't seem to truly harm him by the end, even if she won
Losing to featless characters are low showings though, thats what I been trying to say. Kung Jin got one good feat since he defeated Kotal Kahn and thats a anti feat for Kotal since prior to the encounter Kung Jin had zero feats to go off of. So you make the Kombat Kids look more impressive than Kotal Kahn lol.
@randybutternubs: It's a stalemate in terms of standard strength, especially when we have nothing before or after that could deem Sheeva as capable of doing more than what she did against Kotal. Kotal had a disadvantage and still held his own.
A stalemate is a draw. I'm not going to use your own headcanon definition of a stalemate. Those two grappling each other for a few seconds does not show whos superior.
If Kung Lao was in the same position, Damaged spine against Sheeva, can you guarantee that he'd emerge victorious, If not, then how could you use it against someone who's just as vulnerable to the same logic
Don't make up hypotheticals, it makes you look desperate and is irrelevant to something that actually did happen.
@randybutternubs: And I only brought it up because you tried to use it against him.
Meaning that now there's only two fights where he was Beaten with no weaknesses to be used against him. Jade and Kung Lao.
I remember a friend suggesting that Kotal didn't truly want to hurt Jade and allowed her to lose, but That doesn't really go beyond Speculation, and I'm not too convinced myself.
There's also the argument that MK11 Jade is simply a lot stronger than her MK9 counterpart and was bumped up to a high tier. Which isn't entirely unreasonable, given she bested Dvorah too. The only reasonable explanation that feels consistent overall.
Then there's Shao Kahn. To which... It's Shao Kahn. This version of Shao was able to even beat Liu Kang. The fact that Kitana and Kotal could win at all is a marvel to behold, since Shao Kahn is well out of their league. However, the same applies to Kung Lao, who unlike Kitana and Kotal, never faced someone comparable to him and won.
@randybutternubs: It's a stalemate in terms of standard strength, especially when we have nothing before or after that could deem Sheeva as capable of doing more than what she did against Kotal. Kotal had a disadvantage and still held his own.
A stalemate is a draw. I'm not going to use your own headcanon definition of a stalemate. Those two grappling each other for a few seconds does not show whos superior.
I view a stalemate and a draw as one of the same, I don't really get what headcannon you're suggesting me to have
If Kung Lao was in the same position, Damaged spine against Sheeva, can you guarantee that he'd emerge victorious, If not, then how could you use it against someone who's just as vulnerable to the same logic
Don't make up hypotheticals, it makes you look desperate and is irrelevant to something that actually did happen.
Except that is what we are left with. Comparing the situations of both to find more information. Because Kotal's best feats excede Kung Lao, but the inconsistencies in the fights cause people to overlook it in order to make it easier for them.
Going off of feats, Kotal wins, due to having some really powerful feats under his belt.
Going off of fights, His fight with Shao Kahn is better than any of Kung Lao's showings, but Kung Lao is more consistent.
@randybutternubs: And I only brought it up because you tried to use it against him.
I never used them though
Meaning that now there's only two fights where he was Beaten with no weaknesses to be used against him. Jade and Kung Lao.
He was beaten twice by Shao Kahn, Lost to Kung Jin, Jacqui, and Jade. Nothing states that he was weakened in that forest fight with Kotal Kahn.
I remember a friend suggesting that Kotal didn't truly want to hurt Jade and allowed her to lose, but That doesn't really go beyond Speculation, and I'm not too convinced myself.
Kotal Kahn came off with the intent to harm. Funny how he cares for Jade yet he turned on her quickly.
There's also the argument that MK11 Jade is simply a lot stronger than her MK9 counterpart and was bumped up to a high tier. Which isn't entirely unreasonable, given she bested Dvorah too. The only reasonable explanation that feels consistent overall.
No evidence to suggest Jade got stronger in MK11. Hardly did anything In MK9, missing in MKX and now in MK11 she is brought back to defeat Kotal.
Then there's Shao Kahn. To which... It's Shao Kahn. This version of Shao was able to even beat Liu Kang. The fact that Kitana and Kotal could win at all is a marvel to behold, since Shao Kahn is well out of their league. However, the same applies to Kung Lao, who unlike Kitana and Kotal, never faced someone comparable to him and won.
Kitana wins but Kotal doesn't, at all. He gets humilated twice. Theres a reason why people make jokes about him and criticizes MK for what they done to Kotal. Kung Lao Defeated Scorpion, Shang Tsung, Quan Chi and Kintaro. Thats impressive for someone who isn't suppose to be in Shao Kahns tier.
@randybutternubs: over all, it's dependant on what you put over the other.
Feats or fights.
Kotal's feats outsell Kung Lao's by a large margin, showing levels of Power that Kung Lao cannot rival.
Kung Lao's victories, on the other hand is what gives him any edge, as he is more consistent.
I focus more on the prior cause MK's Chapter system makes fights incredibly inconsistent. Causing fights that don't make a lot of sense for the sake of having that four fight requirement. Meaning that they are unreliable.
@randybutternubs: It's a stalemate in terms of standard strength, especially when we have nothing before or after that could deem Sheeva as capable of doing more than what she did against Kotal. Kotal had a disadvantage and still held his own.
A stalemate is a draw. I'm not going to use your own headcanon definition of a stalemate. Those two grappling each other for a few seconds does not show whos superior.
I view a stalemate and a draw as one of the same, I don't really get what headcannon you're suggesting me to have
They are the same and if it was a draw both opponents would've stopped fighting and concluded. It didn't end that way, a Injured Kotal lost. Deal with it.
If Kung Lao was in the same position, Damaged spine against Sheeva, can you guarantee that he'd emerge victorious, If not, then how could you use it against someone who's just as vulnerable to the same logic
Don't make up hypotheticals, it makes you look desperate and is irrelevant to something that actually did happen.
Except that is what we are left with. Comparing the situations of both to find more information. Because Kotal's best feats excede Kung Lao, but the inconsistencies in the fights cause people to overlook it in order to make it easier for them.
No we are not, you may be due to desperation. Comparing a fight that did happen something that never happened doesn't make sense. Kotals anti feats outweigh his high ends and considering (as i said multiple times) hes meant to be Shao Kahns tier of power makes him very underwhelming as a character.
Going off of feats, Kotal wins, due to having some really powerful feats under his belt.
Feats Kung Lao show more impressive ones. Most of the victories you've mentioned are Kotal defeating people with next to zero feats. Kung Lao defeated people that do have feats and has less loses in the current timeline.
Going off of fights, His fight with Shao Kahn is better than any of Kung Lao's showings, but Kung Lao is more consistent.
Obviously Shao Kahn is better than Kung Lao, hes suppose to be. What are you trying to argue here?
@randybutternubs: And I only brought it up because you tried to use it against him.
I never used them though
Meaning that now there's only two fights where he was Beaten with no weaknesses to be used against him. Jade and Kung Lao.
He was beaten twice by Shao Kahn, Lost to Kung Jin, Jacqui, and Jade. Nothing states that he was weakened in that forest fight with Kotal Kahn.
I remember a friend suggesting that Kotal didn't truly want to hurt Jade and allowed her to lose, but That doesn't really go beyond Speculation, and I'm not too convinced myself.
Kotal Kahn came off with the intent to harm. Funny how he cares for Jade yet he turned on her quickly.
There's also the argument that MK11 Jade is simply a lot stronger than her MK9 counterpart and was bumped up to a high tier. Which isn't entirely unreasonable, given she bested Dvorah too. The only reasonable explanation that feels consistent overall.
No evidence to suggest Jade got stronger in MK11. Hardly did anything In MK9, missing in MKX and now in MK11 she is brought back to defeat Kotal.
Evidence?
Then there's Shao Kahn. To which... It's Shao Kahn. This version of Shao was able to even beat Liu Kang. The fact that Kitana and Kotal could win at all is a marvel to behold, since Shao Kahn is well out of their league. However, the same applies to Kung Lao, who unlike Kitana and Kotal, never faced someone comparable to him and won.
Kitana wins but Kotal doesn't, at all. He gets humilated twice. Theres a reason why people make jokes about him and criticizes MK for what they done to Kotal. Kung Lao Defeated Scorpion, Shang Tsung, Quan Chi and Kintaro. Thats impressive for someone who isn't suppose to be in Shao Kahns tier.
and Kung Lao also lost to him. With no victory to soften the blow. You use the argument of tiers, but isn't he viewed as comparable to Kitana and Liu Kang? we get no indication that he could beat Shao Kahn at all, and the people he does beat are bigger jobbers than the kombat kids.
Hell, Kintaro has never won a single fight in the series. How is beating him impressive? He didn't even fully defeat Scorpion, he left the room cause of the gas and walked away perfectly fine. Shang Tsung gets ragdolled throughout the series.
@randybutternubs: over all, it's dependant on what you put over the other.
Feats or fights.
Feats for obvious reasons.
Kotal's feats outsell Kung Lao's by a large margin, showing levels of Power that Kung Lao cannot rival.
Getting dropped to the floor to two Kombat Kids? Humilated by Shao Kahn not once but twice? Jade unexpectedly defeating him and has been gone for a long time. Majority of of Kotals fights beating fodder or people with zero feats such as King Gorbak? Rain?
Kung Lao's victories, on the other hand is what gives him any edge, as he is more consistent.
On that I agree.
I focus more on the prior cause MK's Chapter system makes fights incredibly inconsistent. Causing fights that don't make a lot of sense for the sake of having that four fight requirement. Meaning that they are unreliable.
I'm fully aware of Mortal Kombats horrible inconsistency with power levels, this has been a thing for a while now. I only wish that they have a proper power scaler or someone who knows the full extent of these characters abilities.
except he did pull a win against Shao Kahn? Now I know you're lowballing
I meant she fully defeated him. She could of ended Shao Kahn. Shao Kahn could've ended Kotal if he wasn't interrupted.
Getting pummled to the floor to two Kombat Kids? Humilated by Shao Kahn not once but twice? Majority of of Kotals fights beating fodder or people with zero feats such as King Gorbak? Rain?
Destroying ships, ripping off Goro's arms, Tanking a direct attack from Shinnok's Amulet. I'm talking feats, not fights
I focus more on the prior cause MK's Chapter system makes fights incredibly inconsistent. Causing fights that don't make a lot of sense for the sake of having that four fight requirement. Meaning that they are unreliable.
I'm fully aware of Mortal Kombats horrible inconsistency with power levels, this has been a thing for a while now. I only wish that they have a proper power scaler or someone who knows the full extent of these characters abilities.
Then why exclusively hold Kotal back on an outlier that exists because they needed filler fights?
I meant she fully defeated him. She could of ended Shao Kahn. Shao Kahn could've ended Kotal if he wasn't interrupted.
Then say that. Kotal could fight Shao Kahn and could hold him off but loses 2/3 of the time.
Kitana could beat Shao Kahn clean
and Shao Kahn could beat Kung Lao clean
Getting pummled to the floor to two Kombat Kids? Humilated by Shao Kahn not once but twice? Majority of of Kotals fights beating fodder or people with zero feats such as King Gorbak? Rain?
Destroying ships, ripping off Goro's arms, Tanking a direct attack from Shinnok's Amulet. I'm talking feats, not fights
As am I. I brought up all the anti feats he has when compared to his high ends. All these feats you brought up contradict his strength and durability when he lost to opponents that are suppose to be far below him.
I focus more on the prior cause MK's Chapter system makes fights incredibly inconsistent. Causing fights that don't make a lot of sense for the sake of having that four fight requirement. Meaning that they are unreliable.
I'm fully aware of Mortal Kombats horrible inconsistency with power levels, this has been a thing for a while now. I only wish that they have a proper power scaler or someone who knows the full extent of these characters abilities.
Then why exclusively hold Kotal back on an outlier that exists because they needed filler fights?
It isn't just one outlier though. He has too many anti feats that weigh him down to say he is consistently a high tier or Shao Kahn tier.
Kung Lao's feat of defeating Quan Chi and Shang Tsung is more impressive than Kotal's best feats.
I meant she fully defeated him. She could of ended Shao Kahn. Shao Kahn could've ended Kotal if he wasn't interrupted.
Then say that. Kotal could fight Shao Kahn and could hold him off but loses 2/3 of the time.
Shao Kahn humilated him. But Again MK11 Shao Kahn isn't as impressive as the other versions.
Kitana could beat Shao Kahn clean
Normally no she wouldn't be able to, he wasn't impressive in MK11 until aftermath came along where he got some redemption. He lost to Kitana but defeated Liu Kang.
and Shao Kahn could beat Kung Lao clean
I never said otherwise.
I meant she fully defeated him. She could of ended Shao Kahn. Shao Kahn could've ended Kotal if he wasn't interrupted.
Then say that. Kotal could fight Shao Kahn and could hold him off but loses 2/3 of the time.
Shao Kahn humilated him. But Again MK11 Shao Kahn isn't as impressive as the other versions.
Kotal won 1 of their three fights. Stop acting like it didn't happen, bro. And MK11 Shao Kahn has more wins than most of his preexisting counterparts, with the exception of Armaggedon.
Kitana could beat Shao Kahn clean
Normally no she wouldn't be able to, he wasn't impressive in MK11 until aftermath came along where he got some redemption. He lost to Kitana but defeated Liu Kang.
MK11 Kitana is substantially stronger than her normal incarnations. And she bested him in a fair match
and Shao Kahn could beat Kung Lao clean
I never said otherwise.
Yet Kotal pulled a win against him.
I meant she fully defeated him. She could of ended Shao Kahn. Shao Kahn could've ended Kotal if he wasn't interrupted.
Then say that. Kotal could fight Shao Kahn and could hold him off but loses 2/3 of the time.
Shao Kahn humilated him. But Again MK11 Shao Kahn isn't as impressive as the other versions.
Kotal won 1 of their three fights. Stop acting like it didn't happen, bro. And MK11 Shao Kahn has more wins than most of his preexisting counterparts, with the exception of Armaggedon.
I'm not acting like it didn't you are making up stuff now. MK11 isn't that impressive power wise. MK9 survived a hole in his chest, completely drain Shang Tsung of his life and powers. One shot Sonya and Johnny Cage, had Raiden outmatched until the Elder Gods intervine.
Kitana could beat Shao Kahn clean
Normally no she wouldn't be able to, he wasn't impressive in MK11 until aftermath came along where he got some redemption. He lost to Kitana but defeated Liu Kang.
MK11 Kitana is substantially stronger than her normal incarnations. And she bested him in a fair match
With what feats? What makes here stronger than other incarnations? Even if she was you realize she lost to Sheeva who had no victories or fights prior to Aftermath.
and Shao Kahn could beat Kung Lao clean
I never said otherwise.
Yet Kotal pulled a win against him.
Shao Kahn shrugged it off, barley even seemed phased. But Shao Kahn humilated him another two times and Kotal did a suprised attack on the 2nd encounter. This proves my point on how inconsistent Kotal is. Kotal can stand with Shao Kahn for a little but can be defeated by Kombat Kids and even Jade afterwards, see my point?
All in all, it just feels like you have to discredit all of Kotal's better feats for Kung Lao to be victorious.
Kotal Kahn's best feats exceed what Kung Lao has shown to be capable of. His low end feats rely on the idea that characters with no real anti feats beating him makes him weaker, instead of bringing those characters higher up the spectrum which are how feats are supposed to work
All in all, it just feels like you have to discredit all of Kotal's better feats for Kung Lao to be victorious.
Some of his best feats aren't as impressive as you try to make them out to be and he has too many anti feats consider those few high ends consistent, doesn't make sense. Can't have someone who can do all these "great feats" but ignore all the anti feats, especially if he/she has too many of them. And he has way more anti-feats and inconsistences more than Kung Lao.
Kotal Kahn's best feats exceed what Kung Lao has shown to be capable of. His low end feats rely on the idea that characters with no real anti feats beating him makes him weaker, instead of bringing those characters higher up the spectrum which are how feats are supposed to work
Best feat destroying that ship but why does that matter when in the same story he loses to two Kombat Kids who have never destroyed a ship or cut off Goros arms. His Attack power can do that but can't beat two rookie Special Forces members. Kung Lao doesn't need to destroy a ship or cut Goros arms off then if those two can beat Kotal without much trouble. Kung Lao already defeated Kintaro though.
I meant she fully defeated him. She could of ended Shao Kahn. Shao Kahn could've ended Kotal if he wasn't interrupted.
Then say that. Kotal could fight Shao Kahn and could hold him off but loses 2/3 of the time.
Shao Kahn humilated him. But Again MK11 Shao Kahn isn't as impressive as the other versions.
Kotal won 1 of their three fights. Stop acting like it didn't happen, bro. And MK11 Shao Kahn has more wins than most of his preexisting counterparts, with the exception of Armaggedon.
I'm not acting like it didn't you are making up stuff now. MK11 isn't that impressive power wise. MK9 survived a hole in his chest, completely drain Shang Tsung of his life and powers. One shot Sonya and Johnny Cage, had Raiden outmatched until the Elder Gods intervine.
Kitana could beat Shao Kahn clean
Normally no she wouldn't be able to, he wasn't impressive in MK11 until aftermath came along where he got some redemption. He lost to Kitana but defeated Liu Kang.
MK11 Kitana is substantially stronger than her normal incarnations. And she bested him in a fair match
With what feats? What makes here stronger than other incarnations? Even if she was you realize she lost to Sheeva who had no victories or fights prior to Aftermath.
and Shao Kahn could beat Kung Lao clean
I never said otherwise.
Yet Kotal pulled a win against him.
Shao Kahn shrugged it off, barley even seemed phased. But Shao Kahn humilated him another two times and Kotal did a suprised attack on the 2nd encounter. This proves my point on how inconsistent Kotal is. Kotal can stand with Shao Kahn for a little but can be defeated by Kombat Kids and even Jade afterwards, see my point?
Shao Kahn was on the knees holding his side until Dvorah bailed him out
Actually, why is it that Shao Kahn did the Exact Same Thing Kotal did in his fight against Jacqui, yet they are still treated differently?
Also, there's more anti-feats for the Deadly Alliance than Jacqui, She bested Kabal's revenant, who drew blood from Raiden, She Bested Ermac, who could beat Jax (Who defeated Quan Chi) and Johnny Cage. She continued to rise her Ranks to the point that her only genuine defeats are against a literal Elder God and Revenant Liu Kang, who could give Raiden a decent fight in MKX.
Thinking more about it, Jacqui is actually a really strong character, And she fought a weaker Kotal, with him barely seeming affected by her win. While Kung Jin Fought Kotal at Full Power and put him in a worse condition than Jacqui did. Meaning that Kung Jin is also stroger than you gave credit for
All in all, it just feels like you have to discredit all of Kotal's better feats for Kung Lao to be victorious.
Some of his best feats aren't as impressive as you try to make them out to be and he has too many anti feats consider those few high ends consistent, doesn't make sense. Can't have someone who can do all these "great feats" but ignore all the anti feats, especially if he/she has too many of them. And he has way more anti-feats and inconsistences more than Kung Lao.
Kotal Kahn's best feats exceed what Kung Lao has shown to be capable of. His low end feats rely on the idea that characters with no real anti feats beating him makes him weaker, instead of bringing those characters higher up the spectrum which are how feats are supposed to work
Best feat destroying that ship but why does that matter when in the same story he loses to two Kombat Kids who have never destroyed a ship or cut off Goros arms. His Attack power can do that but can't beat two rookie Special Forces members. Kung Lao doesn't need to destroy a ship or cut Goros arms off then if those two can beat Kotal without much trouble. Kung Lao already defeated Kintaro though.
Wasn't the same story, it was the comics. Actually, Didn't Skarlet clap Jacqui's cheeks only to be beaten by Dvorah in the comic and Kotal in MK11?
Worth mentioning that Jacqui and Cassie were implied at the beginning to have already had a few Deployments and experience under their belt too, Alongside Takeda's journey with Scorpion. So they wouldn't be defined as rookies either
Jacqui had every advantage she could have against Kotal and he got back up with no real sign of injury or fatigue. Still don't get why you haven't acknowledged that tidbit.
I meant she fully defeated him. She could of ended Shao Kahn. Shao Kahn could've ended Kotal if he wasn't interrupted.
Then say that. Kotal could fight Shao Kahn and could hold him off but loses 2/3 of the time.
Shao Kahn humilated him. But Again MK11 Shao Kahn isn't as impressive as the other versions.
Kotal won 1 of their three fights. Stop acting like it didn't happen, bro. And MK11 Shao Kahn has more wins than most of his preexisting counterparts, with the exception of Armaggedon.
I'm not acting like it didn't you are making up stuff now. MK11 isn't that impressive power wise. MK9 survived a hole in his chest, completely drain Shang Tsung of his life and powers. One shot Sonya and Johnny Cage, had Raiden outmatched until the Elder Gods intervine.
Kitana could beat Shao Kahn clean
Normally no she wouldn't be able to, he wasn't impressive in MK11 until aftermath came along where he got some redemption. He lost to Kitana but defeated Liu Kang.
MK11 Kitana is substantially stronger than her normal incarnations. And she bested him in a fair match
With what feats? What makes here stronger than other incarnations? Even if she was you realize she lost to Sheeva who had no victories or fights prior to Aftermath.
and Shao Kahn could beat Kung Lao clean
I never said otherwise.
Yet Kotal pulled a win against him.
Shao Kahn shrugged it off, barley even seemed phased. But Shao Kahn humilated him another two times and Kotal did a suprised attack on the 2nd encounter. This proves my point on how inconsistent Kotal is. Kotal can stand with Shao Kahn for a little but can be defeated by Kombat Kids and even Jade afterwards, see my point?
Shao Kahn was on the knees holding his side until Dvorah bailed him out
Actually, why is it that Shao Kahn did the Exact Same Thing Kotal did in his fight against Jacqui, yet they are still treated differently?
No he stood up fine and just ran to the portal that Dvorah summoned. After the second encounter you can clearly see who is superior. And As I said before MK11 Shao Kahn was not that impressive until Aftermath.
Also, there's more anti-feats for the Deadly Alliance than Jacqui, She bested Kabal's revenant, who drew blood from Raiden, She Bested Ermac, who could beat Jax (Who defeated Quan Chi) and Johnny Cage. She continued to rise her Ranks to the point that her only genuine defeats are against a literal Elder God and Revenant Liu Kang, who could give Raiden a decent fight in MKX.
Kabal is a known jobber, can move at the speed of sound but still loses in every encounter. Ermac hasn't done much either except lose. Jax didn't do much either except lose his arms and worked for Kronika. Didn't you just say Quan Chi was unimpressive in the Current Timeline so Ermac defeating him means nothing by your logic.
Thinking more about it, Jacqui is actually a really strong character, And she fought a weaker Kotal, with him barely seeming affected by her win. While Kung Jin Fought Kotal at Full Power and put him in a worse condition than Jacqui did. Meaning that Kung Jin is also stroger than you gave credit for
Where was it stated that Kotal was weaker, now you are having a desperation attempt to make Kotal look better when he loses lol. Tried that excuse with Kung Jin, didn't work. Kung Jin has little feats and the one good feat he got was defeating Kotal which is a high showing for him and anti feat for Kotal, i already said this, guess you forgot.
All in all, it just feels like you have to discredit all of Kotal's better feats for Kung Lao to be victorious.
Some of his best feats aren't as impressive as you try to make them out to be and he has too many anti feats consider those few high ends consistent, doesn't make sense. Can't have someone who can do all these "great feats" but ignore all the anti feats, especially if he/she has too many of them. And he has way more anti-feats and inconsistences more than Kung Lao.
Kotal Kahn's best feats exceed what Kung Lao has shown to be capable of. His low end feats rely on the idea that characters with no real anti feats beating him makes him weaker, instead of bringing those characters higher up the spectrum which are how feats are supposed to work
Best feat destroying that ship but why does that matter when in the same story he loses to two Kombat Kids who have never destroyed a ship or cut off Goros arms. His Attack power can do that but can't beat two rookie Special Forces members. Kung Lao doesn't need to destroy a ship or cut Goros arms off then if those two can beat Kotal without much trouble. Kung Lao already defeated Kintaro though.
Wasn't the same story, it was the comics. Actually, Didn't Skarlet clap Jacqui's cheeks only to be beaten by Dvorah in the comic and Kotal in MK11?
Why bring up the comics when the writers are not even sure what is canon and whats not. Even so the Comics are envolved around MKX a prequel to it so something to note is he did all this and ended up losing two Kung Jin, Jacqui and Jade afterwards. No sure what Skarlet and Dvorah has to do with this.
Worth mentioning that Jacqui and Cassie were implied at the beginning to have already had a few Deployments and experience under their belt too, Alongside Takeda's journey with Scorpion. So they wouldn't be defined as rookies either
"implied" Do you have definitive proof or is it just more headcanon on your part and also feats>statements.
Jacqui had every advantage she could have against Kotal and he got back up with no real sign of injury or fatigue. Still don't get why you haven't acknowledged that tidbit.
Still lost though in a fight, no one to intervene, can't change that fact.
Where was it stated that Kotal was weaker, now you are having a desperation attempt to make Kotal look better when he loses lol. Tried that excuse with Kung Jin, didn't work. Kung Jin has little feats and the one good feat he got was defeating Kotal which is a high showing for him and anti feat for Kotal, i already said this, guess you forgot.
It is Literally stated, word for word, that the Osh Tekks are weaker without Sunlight. It is in the Comics, Goro deliberately had Rain block the sun so he could fair better against Kotal's father. It is an established vulnerability for the OshTekks, why do you act like it ain't a thing?
Here you acting like I'm forgetting stuff
Where was it stated that Kotal was weaker, now you are having a desperation attempt to make Kotal look better when he loses lol. Tried that excuse with Kung Jin, didn't work. Kung Jin has little feats and the one good feat he got was defeating Kotal which is a high showing for him and anti feat for Kotal, i already said this, guess you forgot.
It is Literally stated, word for word, that the Osh Tekks are weaker without Sunlight. It is in the Comics, Goro
deliberately had Rain block the sun so he could fair better against Kotal's father. It is an established vulnerability for the OshTekks, why do you act like it ain't a thing?
Weaker as in not being able to fight at night or they lose all power? If can't even beat a rookie Special Forces member at night then he really must be that weak.
Here you acting like I'm forgetting stuff
You have been for awhile now.
"implied" Do you have definitive proof or is it just more headcanon on your part and also feats>statements.
They list off the various Countries they were Deployed at the start of the Story. Three countries to be exact.
Jacqui had every advantage she could have against Kotal and he got back up with no real sign of injury or fatigue. Still don't get why you haven't acknowledged that tidbit.
Still lost though in a fight, no one to intervene, can't change that fact.
I ain't the one looking for ways to change facts, bro.
Where was it stated that Kotal was weaker, now you are having a desperation attempt to make Kotal look better when he loses lol. Tried that excuse with Kung Jin, didn't work. Kung Jin has little feats and the one good feat he got was defeating Kotal which is a high showing for him and anti feat for Kotal, i already said this, guess you forgot.
It is Literally stated, word for word, that the Osh Tekks are weaker without Sunlight. It is in the Comics, Goro
deliberately had Rain block the sun so he could fair better against Kotal's father. It is an established vulnerability for the OshTekks, why do you act like it ain't a thing?
Weaker as in not being able to fight at night or they lose all power? If can't even beat a rookie Special Forces member at night then he really must be that weak.
did Three deployments, only lost to high tiers. Losing to Jacqui ain't as terrible as you want it to be, man.
Here you acting like I'm forgetting stuff
You have been for awhile now.
Pot, meet Kettle
"implied" Do you have definitive proof or is it just more headcanon on your part and also feats>statements.
They list off the various Countries they were Deployed at the start of the Story. Three countries to be exact.
So you say "implied" but not definite? Ok thanks for proving my point
Jacqui had every advantage she could have against Kotal and he got back up with no real sign of injury or fatigue. Still don't get why you haven't acknowledged that tidbit.
Still lost though in a fight, no one to intervene, can't change that fact.
I ain't the one looking for ways to change facts, bro.
Making excuses for why Kotal lost to Kung Jin and Jacqui, desperation to make those instances not look bad for him even though lots of people know those are bad anti feats for Kotal. So yeah you are trying to change them. Even there's a whole thread about how much he gets beaten.
Bringing up facts that you choose to ignore cause it's easier, more like.
Where was it stated that Kotal was weaker, now you are having a desperation attempt to make Kotal look better when he loses lol. Tried that excuse with Kung Jin, didn't work. Kung Jin has little feats and the one good feat he got was defeating Kotal which is a high showing for him and anti feat for Kotal, i already said this, guess you forgot.
It is Literally stated, word for word, that the Osh Tekks are weaker without Sunlight. It is in the Comics, Goro
deliberately had Rain block the sun so he could fair better against Kotal's father. It is an established vulnerability for the OshTekks, why do you act like it ain't a thing?
Weaker as in not being able to fight at night or they lose all power? If can't even beat a rookie Special Forces member at night then he really must be that weak.
did Three deployments, only lost to high tiers. Losing to Jacqui ain't as terrible as you want it to be, man.
Losing to Jacqui who had very low showings at the time of defeating Kotal? Its pretty bad, wouldn't be if it wasn't a consistent thing but it is.
Here you acting like I'm forgetting stuff
You have been for awhile now.
Pot, meet Kettle
Says the one who has been overhyping someone who is greatly known to be a jobber in MK.
Bringing up facts that you choose to ignore cause it's easier, more like.
Not facts just you overhyping a jobber of the MK universe as he is known as one. The fight with Jacqui, Kung Jin, Jade, etc... happened, cope.
@randybutternubs: Also, I still don't get what makes the Deadly Alliance wins so impressive, straight up had no wins till MK11 and even then they got slapped around. Technically in the same boat as Kombat Kids, you might argue they have experience, but under technicality, Goro fought for Shang Tsung for the past 500 years, meaning Shang Tsung didn't participate himself since losing to the Great Kung Lao.
And Qua Chi has nothing to show for himself, as he's more of a schemer than a frontline fighter, as he seems incredibly easy to defeat in the series
Bringing up facts that you choose to ignore cause it's easier, more like.
Not facts just you overhyping a jobber of the MK universe as he is known as one. The fight with Jacqui, Kung Jin, Jade, etc... happened, cope.
I never denied those fights, is the thing. I brought up facts about the fights you disregard. Everything I said about the fights happened in the fights, you're just trying real hard to prove otherwise
Where was it stated that Kotal was weaker, now you are having a desperation attempt to make Kotal look better when he loses lol. Tried that excuse with Kung Jin, didn't work. Kung Jin has little feats and the one good feat he got was defeating Kotal which is a high showing for him and anti feat for Kotal, i already said this, guess you forgot.
It is Literally stated, word for word, that the Osh Tekks are weaker without Sunlight. It is in the Comics, Goro
deliberately had Rain block the sun so he could fair better against Kotal's father. It is an established vulnerability for the OshTekks, why do you act like it ain't a thing?
Weaker as in not being able to fight at night or they lose all power? If can't even beat a rookie Special Forces member at night then he really must be that weak.
did Three deployments, only lost to high tiers. Losing to Jacqui ain't as terrible as you want it to be, man.
Losing to Jacqui who had very low showings at the time of defeating Kotal? Its pretty bad, wouldn't be if it wasn't a consistent thing but it is.
Here you acting like I'm forgetting stuff
You have been for awhile now.
Pot, meet Kettle
Says the one who has been overhyping someone who is greatly known to be a jobber in MK.
What low Showings did Jacqui have tho? You've just been running in circles man with no real direction behind your argument
@randybutternubs: Also, I still don't get what makes the Deadly Alliance wins so impressive, straight up had no wins till MK11 and even then they got slapped around. Technically in the same boat as Kombat Kids, you might argue they have experience, but under technicality, Goro fought for Shang Tsung for the past 500 years, meaning Shang Tsung didn't participate himself since losing to the Great Kung Lao.
Deadly Alliance>Kombat Kids. I mean if you wanna bring up MK11 Shang Tsung the guy that could harm Kronika and beat Jax pretty easily and send Geras to another realm. Goro barley has any feats in the current timeline far as I'm concerned, he is unimpressive. At least Kung Lao defeated Kintaro a Shokan that fodderized special forces memebers and survived a nuke which wiped out a good portion of a army.
And Qua Chi has nothing to show for himself, as he's more of a schemer than a frontline fighter, as he seems incredibly easy to defeat in the series
Still can control people such as Sub-Zero and Scorpion who are easily high tiers.
Where was it stated that Kotal was weaker, now you are having a desperation attempt to make Kotal look better when he loses lol. Tried that excuse with Kung Jin, didn't work. Kung Jin has little feats and the one good feat he got was defeating Kotal which is a high showing for him and anti feat for Kotal, i already said this, guess you forgot.
It is Literally stated, word for word, that the Osh Tekks are weaker without Sunlight. It is in the Comics, Goro
deliberately had Rain block the sun so he could fair better against Kotal's father. It is an established vulnerability for the OshTekks, why do you act like it ain't a thing?
Weaker as in not being able to fight at night or they lose all power? If can't even beat a rookie Special Forces member at night then he really must be that weak.
did Three deployments, only lost to high tiers. Losing to Jacqui ain't as terrible as you want it to be, man.
Losing to Jacqui who had very low showings at the time of defeating Kotal? Its pretty bad, wouldn't be if it wasn't a consistent thing but it is.
Here you acting like I'm forgetting stuff
You have been for awhile now.
Pot, meet Kettle
Says the one who has been overhyping someone who is greatly known to be a jobber in MK.
What low Showings did Jacqui have tho? You've just been running in circles man with no real direction behind your argument
At the time I just said she didn't have very many feats at the time and defeated Kotal, never mentioned low showings. You make no sense with your argument. Using "implied" instate of actual proof but you want me to believe you just cause right? Or use the opinion of your friend to justify why Kotal Kahn lost to jade. What kind of logic is even that? Stop with the headcanon.
Bringing up facts that you choose to ignore cause it's easier, more like.
Not facts just you overhyping a jobber of the MK universe as he is known as one. The fight with Jacqui, Kung Jin, Jade, etc... happened, cope.
I never denied those fights, is the thing. I brought up facts about the fights you disregard. Everything I said about the fights happened in the fights, you're just trying real hard to prove otherwise
What facts? he lost to people with not many feats at the time. Can you provide notable opponents that Kung Jin fought prior to his encounter with Kotal Kahn? Someone who isn't literal fodder?
Deadly Alliance>Kombat Kids. I mean if you wanna bring up MK11 Shang Tsung the guy that could harm Kronika and beat Jax pretty easily and send Geras to another realm. Goro barley has any feats in the current timeline far as I'm concerned, he is unimpressive. At least Kung Lao defeated Kintaro a Shokan that fodderized special forces memebers and survived a nuke which wiped out a good portion of a army.
Now he's lowballing Goro, that's just nasty. the man's been fighting tournaments for 500 years and you wanna compare him to Kintaro, who ain't done jack? He clapped Kenshi and killed a group of red dragons while being a Cripple. Goro is leagues more impressive than Kintaro who's only feat is... Burning a Powerless Kabal.
Kintaro's Nuke feat is hard to calculate cause we don't know how close he was to the nuke itself. He was at the front, with Sheeva, meaning Sheeva probably survived the same attack, or neither were hit by the attack, we can't really tell.
He just opened a portal and let Fujin push Geras through the portal. What about that is actually impressive?
To follow, MK11 Older Jax isn't too impressive himself. He didn't win a single fight and lost to his younger self, was even shown struggling against the Cyber Lin Kuei, which wouldn't be so bad if he wasn't the only one struggling. Beating this Rusty Jax who's only been in 5 fights for the last 20 years, ain't too impressive.
Still can control people such as Sub-Zero and Scorpion who are easily high tiers.
No guarantee that he controls them through power. He's put mind control on the undead before, We've no reason to believe he can't do it with them. Since Scorpion can easily beat him alone, we know it isn't out of superiority.
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