Rounds
- Both are unarmed and Fisk isn't wearing his armor
- Fisk has his armor and Kovar has a knife
Rules
- No prep
- Win by any means
- Fight takes place here:
Who wins and why?
Who wins and why?
Lundgren destroys him
Kovar is more skilled but still a brawler, Kingpin wins via still being stronger and tougher.
caught up on Arrow. Lundgren really does absolutely stomp. Losing to season one Arrow in a hard fight > losing to season one Daredevil in a hard fight. The Marvel fight was basically a street brawl, while the D.C. fight actually showed great skill (Id expect no less from Dolph effing Lundgren).
Losing to season one Arrow in a hard fight
Pre-Season 1 Arrow.
> losing to season one Daredevil in a hard fight.
What makes Ollie at this point more impressive than Daredevil in a melee? Really doubt he has anything on a full geared Matt in a close quarters encounter at this point.
(Id expect no less from Dolph effing Lundgren).
He could have been a season villain, they wasted a great actor (action wise obviously) imo.
Pre-Season 1 Arrow.
At this point it really doesn't matter. There's like 3 episodes of difference. I highly doubt his skill is gonna get upped drastically.
What makes Ollie at this point more impressive than Daredevil in a melee? Really doubt he has anything on a full geared Matt in a close quarters encounter at this point.
Are you talking current, or flashback Ollie vs season one Daredevil? Current Ollie could absolutely beat current Daredevil. Over ten years experience (including fights with world class assassins, ninjas, magic users, numerous metahumans, immortals, and aliens) is obviously gonna have quite an edge over less then 2 years of experience (mostly thugs, a handful of ninja, and one decent soldier).
I don't think there really even needs to be a prolonged discussion on current versions. Daredevil, as of now, just could not replicate Ollie's feat of defeating Derek Sampson (Basically he had the combined powers of Deadpool and Ajax.)
Arrow - 5x03 - Green Arrow Vs Derek Sampson (Cody Rhodes) - YouTube - "Cool guys don't look at explosions"
Season 5 Flashback Ollie vs end of season 1 Daredevil is much more debatable. In just H2H, flashback Ollie's physical stats don't quite stack up to his modern day ones, but his use of holds should still be plenty effective on Daredevil. (Thank God season 5 got decent choreography again).
_
As for the actual topic, I don't see how anybody can watch these two fights and come to the conclusion that Kingpin wins.
For starters, Kingpin is 6' 3" 210lbs, while Kovar is 6' 5" 220lbs. Vincent is an actor, while Lundgren is a 3rd degree black belt in karate and a European champion. I know, this is real life stuff, but it obviously shows in universe. The skills shown in the DC fight is above and beyond that of the Marvel one. There's simple blocks/counters used in the Arrow fight, but further more an impressive use of holds, Kovar put Ollie in a choke hold, which Ollie was skilled enough to escape from. There's also a brief ground game sequence where Lundgren puts a move on Ollie's leg, and there there's the sick ass knife disarm that Ollie does. In comparison the Marvel fight is just all around less impressive. Sure, there is a handful of impressive moves, like Daredevil flipping over Kingpin, but for the most part they just punch each other as much as they possibly can, usually not even attempting to block each others hits. Seriously pay attention to how many times Kingpin just charges Daredevil and still manages to tag him. In Arrow, if someone tries that they usually get judo flipped on their face.
He could have been a season villain, they wasted a great actor (action wise obviously) imo.
Well he could always come back. I have actually been really impressed with his treatment. He's only been in what 2/3 episodes and he's always been badass. And who knows how many episodes he wanted to do. Even if we don't see him again, he every well have made this episode my favorite.
At this point it really doesn't matter. There's like 3 episodes of difference. I highly doubt his skill is gonna get upped drastically.
Really? After 5 seasons of stretching out the flashbacks as much as they can I doubt they'll stop now.
Are you talking current, or flashback Ollie vs season one Daredevil?
Flashback, you said it was more impressive to lose to Oliver at that point than it was EOS1 DD, which I'm disputing so I'm gonna ignore the S5 stuff.
For starters, Kingpin is 6' 3" 210lbs, while Kovar is 6' 5" 220lbs. Vincent is an actor, while Lundgren is a 3rd degree black belt in karate and a European champion. I know, this is real life stuff, but it obviously shows in universe.
I said Kovar was more skilled, but he certainly isn't a black belt in anything in-universe.
The skills shown in the DC fight is above and beyond that of the Marvel one.
So I'm we're supposed to ignore all the times Arrow has super bad unskilled choreography but pay attention to it now? Even if that weren't more than a bit hypocritical I disagree;
There's simple blocks/counters used in the Arrow fight, but further more an impressive use of holds, Kovar put Ollie in a choke hold, which Ollie was skilled enough to escape from.
This;
..is a more impressive display of skill and control than anything we saw in the Kovar fight, the closest thing we see there is a kick out to escape the hold (IIRC) and that's not the same as ragdolling someone Fisks size by flipping over him.
There's also a brief ground game sequence where Lundgren puts a move on Ollie's leg,
Agree Kovar is more skilled.
there there's the sick ass knife disarm that Ollie does.
Fisk didn't have a knife so this didn't happen in DD, but are we really going to pretend that S1 DD can't disarm someone? This is a really low level skill showing.
In comparison the Marvel fight is just all around less impressive.
It's a different kind of fight. Kovar (some skill, some physical prowess) v Oliver (all skill) /=/ Fisk (all physicals) v Daredevil (all skill). Fisk doesn't have the same kind of skill but he is much more of a physical threat.
Sure, there is a handful of impressive moves, like Daredevil flipping over Kingpin, but for the most part they just punch each other as much as they possibly can, usually not even attempting to block each others hits.
When was this? Obviously Fisk doesn't try to but Matt attempted to block, dodge or counter basically everything that was thrown at him. If you're referring to the times where Matt went on a roll and started to beat the hell out of him.....how is that a bad thing? Matt had Fisk seeing stars when he was beating the hell out of him at the end with his clubs, and earlier chose to box for a bit (pugilism is still a martial art).
Seriously pay attention to how many times Kingpin just charges Daredevil and still manages to tag him.
Like once? Most of the times Fisk tagged Matt he already had him staggered.
Are we debating the impressiveness of the feats for Kovar/Fisk based on choreography or how much skill their opponent has?
Maybe Fisk. I'm not too familiar with Kovar
Arrow spoilers:
Eh, I don't think we can really say Flashback Ollie is exactly at S1 levels, in theory I guess he shouldn't be far off (has he actually been shown learning much of anything from Talia?). I could see it going either way, Kovar's more skilled than Kingpin, but he's not as physically capable, and Kovar doesn't have Daredevil's speed and agility, or his damage soak (all of which were largely necessary to actually take Kingpin down)
Hard to tell since they don't exactly have tons of feats beyond losing
Fisk both rounds
@jashro44: oh cool thank you. Hes pretty impressive from what has been shown. Also I don't mind spoilers lol I don't watch Arrow really.
@lordwhiskers: No problem.
Unless we see Oliver further train in flashbacks, he should be on his S1 level. And Fisk is not beating someone who gave S1 Ollie a fight and actually managed to stab him.
Even when Ollie doesn't get more training he is constantly improving. Despite not being further trained the Oliver at the beginning of season 1 isn't as good of a fighter as he is by the end as evidenced by his fight against China White, and he carries on improving without further training throughout the show. He most likely improves through experience from where he is in the flashbacks now.
Unless we see Oliver further train in flashbacks, he should be on his S1 level. And Fisk is not beating someone who gave S1 Ollie a fight and actually managed to stab him.
Even when Ollie doesn't get more training he is constantly improving. Despite not being further trained the Oliver at the beginning of season 1 isn't as good of a fighter as he is by the end as evidenced by his fight against China White, and he carries on improving without further training throughout the show. He most likely improves through experience from where he is in the flashbacks now.
Sure. Oliver by the end of S2 is most likely a better combatant than he was at beginning of S1 because of experience. Though I don't think the gap is big. A fight between S1 Oliver and S2 end Oliver would still be pretty darn close.
@rbt: I don't think so. He goes from losing to China White at the beginning of season 1 to beating her at the end and then holding off her and the superior Bronze Tiger at the same time. He goes from getting stomped by Malcolm Merlyn in the middle of season 1 to losing after a decent fight to losing after a close fight, then about ten episodes later in season 2 he beats Malcolm's trainer who is supposedly better than him. Becoming more skilled in the Arrowverse is much easier than it is in real life, and experience goes a long way. I'm almost certain that Oliver at the beginning of season 1 is a better fighter than Oliver in the flashbacks currently, and Oliver at the end of season 1 is even better.
@rbt: I don't think so. He goes from losing to China White at the beginning of season 1 to beating her at the end and then holding off her and the superior Bronze Tiger at the same time. He goes from getting stomped by Malcolm Merlyn in the middle of season 1 to losing after a decent fight to losing after a close fight, then about ten episodes later in season 2 he beats Malcolm's trainer who is supposedly better than him. Becoming more skilled in the Arrowverse is much easier than it is in real life, and experience goes a long way. I'm almost certain that Oliver at the beginning of season 1 is a better fighter than Oliver in the flashbacks currently, and Oliver at the end of season 1 is even better.
When did Oliver really beat China White? In the Merlyn assassination episode, the fight was pretty damn close when they were fighting h2h. The only reason Oliver won was because he pulled an arrow on her. As for holding off Bronze Tiger and China at same time, that's really not that impressive when you consider that Ben would have killed Oliver had it not been for Dig. While Oliver did fight them at same time for a few seconds, he had to try and BFR China so he could concentrate on Ben. And in doing so, he almost got killed. And Oliver has never been able to beat Ben in cqc, IIRC.
@rbt: I don't think so. He goes from losing to China White at the beginning of season 1 to beating her at the end and then holding off her and the superior Bronze Tiger at the same time. He goes from getting stomped by Malcolm Merlyn in the middle of season 1 to losing after a decent fight to losing after a close fight, then about ten episodes later in season 2 he beats Malcolm's trainer who is supposedly better than him. Becoming more skilled in the Arrowverse is much easier than it is in real life, and experience goes a long way. I'm almost certain that Oliver at the beginning of season 1 is a better fighter than Oliver in the flashbacks currently, and Oliver at the end of season 1 is even better.
When did Oliver really beat China White? In the Merlyn assassination episode, the fight was pretty damn close when they were fighting h2h. The only reason Oliver won was because he pulled an arrow on her. As for holding off Bronze Tiger and China at same time, that's really not that impressive when you consider that Ben would have killed Oliver had it not been for Dig. While Oliver did fight them at same time for a few seconds, he had to try and BFR China so he could concentrate on Ben. And in doing so, he almost got killed. And Oliver has never been able to beat Ben in cqc, IIRC.
@rbt: The hallway is what I was thinking of, not including the season 5 fight. It may have been close, but after rewatching the scene Oliver was the clear victor. He landed more hits on China than vice-versa, and he only pulled out his bow after flooring her when he had the opportunity. You're right on the Bronze Tiger fight though, so I'll concede on that.
@arcus1: Have you been reading a load of comics recently?
@arcus1: Up until recently I've never seen you post comic scans or comment on any comic fights.
@rbt: The hallway is what I was thinking of, not including the season 5 fight. It may have been close, but after rewatching the scene Oliver was the clear victor. He landed more hits on China than vice-versa, and he only pulled out his bow after flooring her when he had the opportunity. You're right on the Bronze Tiger fight though, so I'll concede on that.
Yeah, Oliver had upper hand, I can agree with that. Though China still gave him a pretty good fight. And even though Oliver had floored China, the fight was far from over before Oliver pulled out his bow.
@rbt: The only reason Oliver was able to pull out his bow was because China was on the floor and temporarily unable to fight back. There were other moments in the fight where one was downed but immediately after they usually took their opponent down with them. This was the first time in the fight where one fighter was able to focus on something other than attacking or defending and it came after Oliver both landed and blocked more blows. China was still able to fight, but it was clear that Oliver had become the superior fighter at this point even though the two were close.
@rbt: The only reason Oliver was able to pull out his bow was because China was on the floor and temporarily unable to fight back. There were other moments in the fight where one was downed but immediately after they usually took their opponent down with them. This was the first time in the fight where one fighter was able to focus on something other than attacking or defending and it came after Oliver both landed and blocked more blows. China was still able to fight, but it was clear that Oliver had become the superior fighter at this point even though the two were close.
Well, to be fair, a lot of that could have been because of Oliver's physical superiority. In their first fight, Oliver didn't land any hit on China. In the hallway fight, both of them landed hits on each other. Only Oliver's hits would be way more powerful than China's. But I see your point. Oliver did go from not landing a single hit on China to landing majority of the hits on her. That's a decent improvement.
@rbt: Somewhat unrelated, but I'm wondering how much thought the writers put into physicals when deciding who wins fights between two non-enhanced characters in-universe. If two people are both peak humans in the Arrowverse they seem to go purely by skill and don't really have one fighter overpower or blitz another.
Kingpin didn't impress me once and I think he's one of the most overrated MCU characters. He has strength and brutality. Kovar isn't a weaking and brings a skill level to compete with Oliver on a technical level.
@rbt: Somewhat unrelated, but I'm wondering how much thought the writers put into physicals when deciding who wins fights between two non-enhanced characters in-universe. If two people are both peak humans in the Arrowverse they seem to go purely by skill and don't really have one fighter overpower or blitz another.
A couple of Arrow fights are decided by physicals if you look close enough. Take Nyssa v Oliver first fight for example. Nyssa had Oliver in a hold and had a knife to his throat but Oliver overpowered her and turned the table. I guess, if Dig and Thea were ever to fight, writers would definitely show Dig's physical superiority.
@rbt: You're probably right on that.
kovar did well vs season one oliver. and yes it was season one since their final fight happened moments before his rescue
I still think Kovar would win this.
People seem to think that there is a massive strength gap and Kovar was only a brawler, but here are some really good strength/combat feats from Kovar.
Snaps a mans neck with no effort what so ever.
Man handles a Oliver, even though Oliver was pretty broken down at this point due to torture. (Kovar had just been stabbed through his hand though without even flinching, which is a really good pain tolerance/endurance showing)
Stomps Anatoly for what it's worth.
He clearly wasn't just a brawler or some skill less brute, evident by these advanced techniques he displayed in fights.
Performs a hand/wrist lock on Oliver.
Executes a beautiful rolling knee bar.
Puts up a really good fight against Oliver, maybe his greatest showing:
Kovar faced off against a more lethal and dangerous opponent in Oliver, than what Fisk did with Matt, and yet they had about the same result.
Kovar should claim a slim majority in this fight.
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