Kol Mikaelson (The Vampire Diaries) vs Wonder Woman (WoDC)

How so? I'm pretty sure Kol has the speed advantage, which is all he needs considering his compulsion.

@boc: Kol is not faster than Diana. Even if he was, it wouldn’t be in combat nor would it be to such an extent that it would make a difference.

Even if we attempt to scale him to his siblings and use their calcs and feats to back this, or use his fights against inferior vampires and beings in TVD verse, it wouldn’t be enough since Diana can scale directly to Doomsday who is basically a Super Kryptonian. Or even SW who can catch RPG’s at point blank range. She has tangoed with both.

Diana is a casual and consistent bullet timer and we know her actual combat speed is well beyond that because she can perceive bullets in slow motion while being capable of not only reacting to them, but accelerating her movements to such an extent that she can both block, evade, and then reach targets fast enough to move them away from the bullets after they have been fired at close range. Again, this is done CASUALLY.

Also, Kol can’t compel her. In TVD universe (confirmed again in Legacies) supernatural beings can’t be compelled. Originals can only compel other vampires because they are of their sired lines and as such, vulnerable to the Alpha of their species. Not only is Diana a supernatural being (Amazonian), but she is also a demigod, being the daughter of Zeus. She’s twice the supernatural being here. So compulsion isn’t an option.

Skills, Experience, stats, and just overall feats, Diana decimates my boi Kol. And doesn’t break a sweat doing it.

@boc: This is also not touching on the fact that Diana is trained from childhood warrior who is at least, 800 and at the most, 5000 according to the DCEU. She canonically has taken on and killed beings who would solo the TVD/TO verse. I could grant Kol the superior speed and he would still not be capable of putting her down here.

WW tanked two headbutts from the most powerful version of Superman to date and was fine, even no sold the first one. This impact created shockwaves.

She’s tanked punches from DD and being knocked at blazing speeds across battlefields and into cars and other debris while not even being phased.

In her debut, she’s strong enough to jump into, and basically one shot buildings with the mere force of her impact.

Her gauntlet clash hasn’t only ever been stopped by Superman and with it, she has rag-dolled SW and knocked DD several meters away. Her sword sliced DD up like butter and her should has tanked punches form Superman, DD, and blasts of energy that consumed blocks and vaporized buildings. Her strength is enough to knock a leveraged DD off of his feet and into the air. Honestly, what is Kol going to do here?

@rijehu:

I'll try to keep this brief, so most of my points will be in bullets. If you'd like me to go more in depth on some of them, I will.

Diana's speed:

• Scaling to DD is hardly impressive imo. For one, she only reacted to one of his hits, and his heat vision a few times. Other than that, she was consistently reacted to and tagged, landing majority of her hits when DD was distracted by either Superman or Batman. Secondly, how fast is DD's downward strike/heat vision exactly that would make this impressive?
• While she is a good bullet timer, I disagree with the idea that her combat speed is well above that. For a vast majority, the bullets Diana blocks must travel a significantly larger distance than her limbs. There are about 2, maybe 3, instances where Diana moves her limb at around the same speed of the bullet. Even then, she only maintains that speed for a short moment.
• Scaling to SW is even less impressive. The missile he caught was a hellfire missile, which has a top speed of mach ~ mach 1.3, but an acceleration of 10Gs so at ~50 meters it will only reach 100 m/s or mach 0.29.

Kol's speed:

• Scales well above young vampires such as Damon, who are FTE and bullet timers (albeit not on the level of Diana)
• Scales just below Klaus who comfortably outran two claymores.
• Scales directly to Elijah who also outran an explosion, and consistently keeps up with Klaus in combat.

Compulsion:

• Saying that being supernatural means you are immune to compulsion is pure conjecture.
• Saying these species from this universe have compulsion resistance says nothing about Diana's mental immunity (something she's never demonstrated.)
• As for "confirmed by Legacies" I assume you are referring to Alaric's statement in the pilot, which was seemingly misinterpreted. After seeing that this human (who isn't on vervain) is immune to compulsion, Alaric assumes that this guy is supernatural, as many supernatural species have shown resistance to compulsion. I'd hardly call that evidence.
• This is all not to mention that they have compelled other supernatural creatures, such as untriggered werewolves and doppelgangers. Not that this needed to be shown in the first place, seeing as feats for creatures in one universe are not applicable to species in another.
• And this: "Originals can only compel other vampires because they are of their sired lines and as such, vulnerable to the Alpha of their species." is more conjecture disproved by the show. For one, that would imply that Originals can only compel vampires from their sire line, which is shown to be false. Secondly: The Beast (someone sired by an Original) can compel Originals. And Hayley (someone not sired by any Originals) can be compelled by Originals.

Conclusion: Kol is considerably faster than Diana, opening for a successful compulsion.

These Diana arguments are sad

Imagine thinking that moving 1 foot for every 10 feet a bullet travels makes you bullet speed

Diana's Speed:

• Labeling either a feat or a comparison as "unimpressive" isn't actually a rebuttal. I'm not expecting you to be impressed especially since said comparison is in favor of the opposing combatant in this context. Thats like me saying that I don't find Kol impressive and using that as the basis of my reasoning. Our opinions of feats don't matter. The actual feats do.
• With that being said, WW was fighting DD alone when she chopped him up. Reacting to DD's blitz attack and heat vision is already enough here since A) DD blitzed to her, caught her off guard after she got knocked away, and she still countered his strike before dismembering him. B) Heat vision travels way faster than the being releasing it on screen so the fact that she can react to that multiple times is still a feat in her favor here.
• I don't know exactly how fast heat vision is but it was faster that DD or Superman traveled by on panel showings. If you want me to gage striking speed, lets consider the fact that Superman and DD's strikes casually broke the sound barrier (confirmed by Mach cones which has been happening since MOS and is confirmed by Snyder and the FX team). DD's own strikes in battle were fast and powerful enough to not only negate a blitzing Superman, but also knock him back in the opposite direction at a comparable speed. So there is no reason to believe that it was nay less force and speed behind the strikes that Diana took. (Again, not that it matters since she can react to eye beams that cover large amounts of ground instantaneously).
• In the same logic, can you give me the speed of the strikes from the Vampires? If not, are we going to scale and use the best showings?
• Diana has consistently shown to be well beyond a bullet timer in combat speed. In her debut movie, literally in mid combat against an entire squad of soldiers, she is simultaneously wrecking them while deflecting bullets from every direction, sometimes without even seeing them fired. In JL, those machine gun bullets are fired point blank range, in a barrage, and Diana doesn't just move her limbs, she physically outpaces the bullets as well as the trajectory to the extent of being able to intricately move others out of said path. She can evade, block, and outpace bullets easily and has done so consistently. So yes, she has to be well beyond that in combat speed since she has done so in literal combat.
• The argument you made can literally be used against the Vampires. Diana only has to maintain that speed for a short moment because a moment is all it takes for her to get the job done. Vampires literally do the exact same thing in combat. They blitz in spurts and attack in spurts. They dodge in spurts. No vampire is consistently in blitzing mode. And even then, no vampire has shown to be capable of what Diana did in her scenes of bullet timing. Please show me if I'm wrong. Running out of the way of a single bullet is nothing compared to what base Diana does with multiple rounds. It's not even close. And considering the fact that no Vampire had actually been shown to consistently block or even out pace a bullet, combat or otherwise, Diana scales easily beyond any of them in that regard. If I'm wrong, again, show me feats.
• Fair.

Kol's Speed:

• You remember telling me earlier that Diana was "tagged" by DD? Well, Kol scaling way beyond younger vampires is not helping him here especially when both he and those vamps have also been tagged by lesser, and consistently. Damon has tagged Kol. Damon has been shot by bullets and tagged by lesser vampires. Several younger vampires have tagged Klaus. Witches have reacted to and stopped Vampire blitzes in their tracks. The list goes on...
• Klaus outrunning two claymores is sick...but Im not seeing how that's combat related or helping Kol here. If we're scaling based on travel speed, Superman's lowest blitzes based on his flight speed clock in at around Mach 24. DD being able to knock him silly mid blitz means his launches have to be greater, and WW can react to those during a blitz from DD so...
• The issue here again, is the fact that while Kol can scale to Elijah, who may be able to keep up with Klaus in combat, he (like all the originals) can also still be tagged by lesser and even blitzed and attacked by lesser. Not to mention that again, WW keeps pace with actual bullets, other bullet timers, and beings who break sound barriers with no effort, IN combat, If we're going by who's more consistent, she wins by a landslide.

Compulsion:

• Your'e overusing that word "conjecture" but I will admit that I didn't specify my points enough. There are indeed certain supernatural species that have an immunity to compulsion. There are also beings who have outright resisted compulsion (Shen Min) and negated it all together (witches).
• Alaric's comment isn't "misrepresented" when we actually see that certain students at the school as well as at Mystic Falls high can't be compelled because they are of a supernatural origin. You admitted that many supernatural species are immune to compulsion yet, that isn't evidence that Diana ( a hybrid of both a supernatural species of warrior women and a god) could be? She's literally a being of the likes no one in TVD have ever came across (power wise or origin) yet she will somehow fall into the group of those affected by compulsion? A goddess imbued with God killing power will be compelled because werewolves and other vampires and humans were? Because it suits your argument? Not to mention that she herself has a legit Lasso that "compels" the ensnared meaning she has an understanding of the concept...but Kol is just gonna willy nilly compel her...ok.
• Also, Diana has actually displayed mental immunity against Ares, who is via feats, vastly beyond anyone in TVD/TO universe when it comes to mental manipulation. Compulsion is nothing more than mind control via extreme persuasion. It's just a different name. Compulsion in TVD. Glamouring in True Blood. Outright hypnotism in classical works. Ares "compelled" the entirety of humanity in acts of war. He literally on panel went "whispering in their ears" and they committed atrocities. We see him attempt to do this against Diana after she went God mode and starting blitzing the heck out everyone (in which she again, was blocking a barrage of bullets simultaneously). He tried to get her kill the masked chic, utilizing this hatred of man and enticement of war to compel her, yet she resisted him. Just because Kol and his sibling run up to people's faces and then stare at them and then say "Hey, do this" doesn't mean that they are any more affective than Ares manipulation of the mind. I'd argue that Kol can't compel her at all.
• You mentioned that feats from one species in one universe doesn't translate to another species in another universe being capable of doing it, yet you think that Kol's compulsion is just gonna work on another being entirely, of an entire different caliber, from an entire different universe, just because it worked on certain beings in his own. Yeah...
• You misread what I said. I did not imply that Originals could only compel vampires from their line. If that were the case, I would have used "respectively" in that statement. I said that they (as a collective) can compel their sired (again, a collective) because they are the alpha of their species.
• And no, Marcel and Lucien were originally sired by Klaus. The Beast they became however, was recreated via a ritual and powered by the New Orleans witches with the sole purpose of being more powerful than the Originals in every aspect. So them being capable of compelling an Original isn't even conventional as they were created via magic to be able to do so in the first place.

OT. Kol in not faster than Diana. Kol can not compel Diana. He approaches her, and gets dismembered, or rag dolled, or both. She may even use her lasso to compel him to admit that he's out of his league.

Even IF he could compel her, the moment he gets close enough, Diana( being a better and smarter fighter in every sense) knocks him away like she's done several beings WAAAAY stronger than him.

Even if he was faster than her...again...what is he going to do to her???

Regarding the feats that you overlooked, Kol can also do nothing to Diana physically as she is superior by margins in EVERY category from stats to skill to experience. Diana has killed things from other worlds and wiped out a god. She's tangoed with beings who fodderize TVD verse. The only argument you have here hinges on the fact that Kol might be able to compel her, and she might just stand there and let it happen. No.

@boc: Also, regarding your compulsion comment on Werewolves and Dopplegangers, I found these responses on this very thread.

This has already been proven false. The Anti Magic Barrier doesn't affect Untriggered Werwolves because they do not count as supernatural which allowed Tyler to live in Mystic Falls post purification spell just fine.

Dopplegangers are the exception because they are clones of a human(Amara) used to balance out her immortality as nature required a substitute for Amara, they don't function as any other supernatural(as Nature required to restore balance) other than their precursor to resemble Amara. You really never paid attention.

Also, Hayley can be compelled because she is half vampires, and thus vulnerable to compulsion via that side. We learned this from Michael in TVD.

Nice

@rijehu Thanks, also really liked your more in depth speed and compulsion responses.

This thread is amusing.

How about you don’t blindly quote someone else’s argument, especially when it’s been proven completely false in universe

Tyler can live in mystic falls witjout problem cuz all the spell does is remove any magic in him. An untriggered wolf and a regular human aren’t that different

Doppelgangers are supernatural and half of all doppelgangers are the clones of a witch(not a human like that genius you quoted claims). And they are spiritual as per the literal words of characters on the show, it’s the whole reason why Elena can’t use the Gilbert ring.

And then there’s the fact that you’re basically giving Diana the powers from another verse simply because she has magic.

Yeah boy Mach 10 Diana cuz she was moving perpendicularly to bullets

@ourmanuel: ...None of that makes sense and still doesn’t help you come back from the intellectual spanking you’re receiving from the user you claim I “blindly” quoted: Also, do you have an actual argument? Perhaps you should project that anger back at the person who has been schooling you up and down this thread. Close that can of worms before you open another one.

OT: WW stomps. I’m not “basically” giving her powers of anyone. I’m literally using her actual feats to express why she wrecks Kol and he can do nothing to her. Your argument is HOPING that he compels her when nothing says he can, because you know stat wise he gets dismembered. It’s taking you Olympic levels of mental gymnastics and tendon tearing reaching to even make a case for Kol. It’s not happening bud. Go back to class.

@tektonic: You’re welcome. Threads like these are made purely for support of your favorite character. Featwise this is actually spite.

Apart of me also wonders if we gave WW Kol’s apparent NLF compulsion and, then gave Kol WW’s entire catalogue of feats, who they would vote for then. No one has YET to address her superior stats in everything that I brought up.

@rijehu:

Labeling either a feat or a comparison as "unimpressive" isn't actually a rebuttal. I'm not expecting you to be impressed especially since said comparison is in favor of the opposing combatant in this context. Thats like me saying that I don't find Kol impressive and using that as the basis of my reasoning. Our opinions of feats don't matter. The actual feats do.

Nor was it meant to be. I'm confused as to why you are addressing this as if was the basis of my argument. It was simply a short sentence followed by my actual argument.

With that being said, WW was fighting DD alone when she chopped him up. Reacting to DD's blitz attack and heat vision is already enough here since A) DD blitzed to her, caught her off guard after she got knocked away, and she still countered his strike before dismembering him. B) Heat vision travels way faster than the being releasing it on screen so the fact that she can react to that multiple times is still a feat in her favor here.

Not entirely familiar with the scene in reference, so clip? As for the heat vision, what feats does it have that place it above it's visual speed?

I don't know exactly how fast heat vision is but it was faster that DD or Superman traveled by on panel showings. If you want me to gage striking speed, lets consider the fact that Superman and DD's strikes casually broke the sound barrier (confirmed by Mach cones which has been happening since MOS and is confirmed by Snyder and the FX team). DD's own strikes in battle were fast and powerful enough to not only negate a blitzing Superman, but also knock him back in the opposite direction at a comparable speed. So there is no reason to believe that it was nay less force and speed behind the strikes that Diana took. (Again, not that it matters since she can react to eye beams that cover large amounts of ground instantaneously).

So his combat speed is at least mach 1? Considering that Diana has bullet timing feats above that, I fail to see it's relevancy.

In the same logic, can you give me the speed of the strikes from the Vampires? If not, are we going to scale and use the best showings?

Well, my argument isn't necessarily reliant on combat because Kol doesn't have the strength nor durability to contend. Rather his speed and small degree maneuverability. To demonstrate that we have Klaus' feat of outrunning two claymores, which I am going to provide in a follow up post in fear of it making this post glitch.

Diana has consistently shown to be well beyond a bullet timer in combat speed. In her debut movie, literally in mid combat against an entire squad of soldiers, she is simultaneously wrecking them while deflecting bullets from every direction, sometimes without even seeing them fired. In JL, those machine gun bullets are fired point blank range, in a barrage, and Diana doesn't just move her limbs, she physically outpaces the bullets as well as the trajectory to the extent of being able to intricately move others out of said path. She can evade, block, and outpace bullets easily and has done so consistently. So yes, she has to be well beyond that in combat speed since she has done so in literal combat.

Solo film - Are you aware that the other combat wasn't on that level? Yes, she blocked numerous bullets during that scene, but she was also fighting at a relatively slow pace against the soldiers (who aren't fast by any means.) The fact that should bullet timed in combat does not give her bullet level combat speed. And as I said in my previous post, each one of those bullets have to travel a considerably larger distance than Diana's limbs.

JL - I assume you mean the bank scene. Again, while impressive, each one of her movements require her to travel a much shorter distance than the bullets do. Unless you have screens for the entire sequence that suggest otherwise, which I would be happy to look over. This is by no means meant to discredit Diana as a bullet timer, simply the idea that she has bullet level combat speed.

The argument you made can literally be used against the Vampires. Diana only has to maintain that speed for a short moment because a moment is all it takes for her to get the job done. Vampires literally do the exact same thing in combat. They blitz in spurts and attack in spurts. They dodge in spurts. No vampire is consistently in blitzing mode. And even then, no vampire has shown to be capable of what Diana did in her scenes of bullet timing. Please show me if I'm wrong. Running out of the way of a single bullet is nothing compared to what base Diana does with multiple rounds. It's not even close. And considering the fact that no Vampire had actually been shown to consistently block or even out pace a bullet, combat or otherwise, Diana scales easily beyond any of them in that regard. If I'm wrong, again, show me feats.

I think you misunderstood me when I said Diana only maintains it for a moment. I'm specifically referring to the 2-3 moments where one of her limbs match the speed of a bullet. And in those cases, that speed is maintained for no more than a few inches. I never denied the fact that no TVD vamp has a bullet timing feat on Diana's level. My argument is that Originals have demonstrated travel speed with some maneuverability on a level that's greater (explosions.) The claymore feat, for example, has a speed of ~ mach 3.5. Alone that's above any bullet Diana has blocked. But the more impressive part is that Klaus comfortably outran it (traveled a larger distance in around the same time.) Show me Diana reacting to something on that level of speed.

You remember telling me earlier that Diana was "tagged" by DD? Well, Kol scaling way beyond younger vampires is not helping him here especially when both he and those vamps have also been tagged by lesser, and consistently. Damon has tagged Kol. Damon has been shot by bullets and tagged by lesser vampires. Several younger vampires have tagged Klaus. Witches have reacted to and stopped Vampire blitzes in their tracks. The list goes on...

I hope you're not arguing that Damon tagging Kol is a legitimate anti feat, and not a product of PIS or context (caught off guard.) To argue that, you'd have to blatantly disregard one of the most fundamental rules of the TVD universe. That is, vampires gaining strength, speed, etc. upon age. As for witches reacting to Originals, it's often done by a powerful witch, or with context. In which case, it'd be a feat for them.

The issue here again, is the fact that while Kol can scale to Elijah, who may be able to keep up with Klaus in combat, he (like all the originals) can also still be tagged by lesser and even blitzed and attacked by lesser. Not to mention that again, WW keeps pace with actual bullets, other bullet timers, and beings who break sound barriers with no effort, IN combat, If we're going by who's more consistent, she wins by a landslide.

Again, I'm hoping that you aren't willing to blatantly deny a fundamental law in the TVD universe to support the legitimacy of Originals getting tagged by much younger vamps. Or if "lesser" is referring to something else, please elaborate.

Alaric's comment isn't "misrepresented" when we actually see that certain students at the school as well as at Mystic Falls high can't be compelled because they are of a supernatural origin. You admitted that many supernatural species are immune to compulsion yet, that isn't evidence that Diana ( a hybrid of both a supernatural species of warrior women and a god) could be? She's literally a being of the likes no one in TVD have ever came across (power wise or origin) yet she will somehow fall into the group of those affected by compulsion? A goddess imbued with God killing power will be compelled because werewolves and other vampires and humans were? Because it suits your argument? Not to mention that she herself has a legit Lasso that "compels" the ensnared meaning she has an understanding of the concept...but Kol is just gonna willy nilly compel her...ok.

You say it isn't misinterpreted, then go on to agree with my statement of majority of supernatural creatures displaying resistance to compulsion. You seem to think that this resistance comes as a result of simply being supernatural, when it's clearly not the case (untriggered werewolves/doppelgangers.) Do I think Diana can have resistance to mind control? Certainly. Do I think she needs actual feats that demonstrate this instead of fancy titles that say nothing about mental resistance? Absolutely. All this talk about goddess seem to be a weak attempt at covering the fact that she has never demonstrated resistance to mind control. She has a lasso that compels, cool. Has she resisted it's compulsion before? No.

Also, Diana has actually displayed mental immunity against Ares, who is via feats, vastly beyond anyone in TVD/TO universe when it comes to mental manipulation. Compulsion is nothing more than mind control via extreme persuasion. It's just a different name. Compulsion in TVD. Glamouring in True Blood. Outright hypnotism in classical works. Ares "compelled" the entirety of humanity in acts of war. He literally on panel went "whispering in their ears" and they committed atrocities. We see him attempt to do this against Diana after she went God mode and starting blitzing the heck out everyone (in which she again, was blocking a barrage of bullets simultaneously). He tried to get her kill the masked chic, utilizing this hatred of man and enticement of war to compel her, yet she resisted him. Just because Kol and his sibling run up to people's faces and then stare at them and then say "Hey, do this" doesn't mean that they are any more affective than Ares manipulation of the mind. I'd argue that Kol can't compel her at all.

You can't seriously be arguing that Ares' persuasion means that Diana can resist actual mind control. Whispering into someone's ear and persuading them to do bad things is far from an ability to erase memories, and actually force someone into doing something. Compulsion isn't just persuading someone into do doing something; it's actively making them do something even when they don't want to. Characters under compulsion routinely say "I don't want to do this" or "This isn't me, I can't stop." As Ares even says "Whispering into their ears ideas, inspirations for formulas, weapons. But I don't make them use them. They start these wars on their own. All I do is orchestrate an arsenal I know they cannot keep, in hope they will destroy themselves." Literally anyone with a pure heart would be able to resist this persuasion. Diana doing it speaks nothing on resistance to compulsion.

You mentioned that feats from one species in one universe doesn't translate to another species in another universe being capable of doing it, yet you think that Kol's compulsion is just gonna work on another being entirely, of an entire different caliber, from an entire different universe, just because it worked on certain beings in his own. Yeah...

This as illogical as saying "Superman never hurt someone from the MCU, therefore he can't" or "Professor X has never read the mind of someone from the DCEU, therefore he can't." The simple fact is, Kol has an ability to control minds, and Diana has never demonstrated a defense against that. But yes, feats from one universe are not applicable to another. I can't say "vampires from twilight have compulsion because they're vampires." Nor can you say "WW can resist mind control because she's supernatural." Without actual feats, we certainly cannot attribute these aspects to entirely different universes.

You misread what I said. I did not imply that Originals could only compel vampires from their line. If that were the case, I would have used "respectively" in that statement. I said that they (as a collective) can compel their sired (again, a collective) because they are the alpha of their species.

You are correct when you say they are the "alpha". They are the most powerful. They have the most powerful compulsion. Ergo, they can compel standard vampires. Anything beyond that is unsubstantiated claims. If being the "alpha" meant that you could compel inferiors, then Klaus could compel his siblings. And this says nothing about their ability to compel humans/doppelgangers/untriggered werewolves. All of which, are entirely different species. What's clear here is that Originals just posses strong compulsion, allowing them to compel standard vampires as well.

And no, Marcel and Lucien were originally sired by Klaus. The Beast they became however, was recreated via a ritual and powered by the New Orleans witches with the sole purpose of being more powerful than the Originals in every aspect. So them being capable of compelling an Original isn't even conventional as they were created via magic to be able to do so in the first place.

They were created to be more powerful (and an entirely different species), yes. Which gave them superior compulsion, allowing them to compel Originals. Where does your logic fit in here for them being able to compel originals? He's not of their species. They aren't a part of his sire line. Yet he can compel them. It's clear that they just posses compulsion strong enough for an Original. As do Originals to standard vampires.

Also, Hayley can be compelled because she is half vampires, and thus vulnerable to compulsion via that side. We learned this from Michael in TVD.

I'm aware of this. My point is that she is not sired by an Original. There's an entire plot point about it in TO. Yet she can be compelled. Simple conclusion: Originals just have compulsion that is that powerful. Not some unsubstantiated theory about being the alpha of their species.

Also, regarding your compulsion comment on Werewolves and Dopplegangers, I found these responses on this very thread.

"This has already been proven false. The Anti Magic Barrier doesn't affect Untriggered Werwolves because they do not count as supernatural which allowed Tyler to live in Mystic Falls post purification spell just fine.

Dopplegangers are the exception because they are clones of a human(Amara) used to balance out her immortality as nature required a substitute for Amara, they don't function as any other supernatural(as Nature required to restore balance) other than their precursor to resemble Amara. You really never paid attention."

Quoting that dude was a terrible mistake, as he is clearly trolling or simply lacks in-depth knowledge of the show. And in doing so, you've demonstrated a lack of in-depth knowledge as well. I'd go over this, but someone has already addressed this with points I was going to bring up. So I'll just quote him:

"How about you don’t blindly quote someone else’s argument, especially when it’s been proven completely false in universe

Tyler can live in mystic falls witjout problem cuz all the spell does is remove any magic in him. An untriggered wolf and a regular human aren’t that different

Doppelgangers are supernatural and half of all doppelgangers are the clones of a witch(not a human like that genius you quoted claims). And they are spiritual as per the literal words of characters on the show, it’s the whole reason why Elena can’t use the Gilbert ring.

And then there’s the fact that you’re basically giving Diana the powers from another verse simply because she has magic."

~ ourmanuel

Regarding the feats that you overlooked, Kol can also do nothing to Diana physically as she is superior by margins in EVERY category from stats to skill to experience. Diana has killed things from other worlds and wiped out a god. She's tangoed with beings who fodderize TVD verse. The only argument you have here hinges on the fact that Kol might be able to compel her, and she might just stand there and let it happen. No.

I didn't bother addressing the other feats because I don't disagree. I even said that Diana has every other stat advantage. The problem here is that I fail to see it's relevancy as the fight will be over way before it comes to that. The argument here is that Kol can compel her, and has the speed advantage necessary to do it. So far, your argument against compulsion has been nothing more than theories and giving Diana feats from another universe's species.

@rijehu:

Here is the video of Klaus outrunning the claymore. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fk8gvUt5Gxo

And here are screens to break it down:

The blue is the area of the hunter/Klaus, red is the door, and green is the area of the claymore. As we see later in the episode, Klaus had carried the hunter out to question him. The hunter wakes up with nothing more than his wounds from the arrows. In this scene, Klaus releases the hunter from the arrows, maneuvers around the few obstacles in way of the door, and carries him out. This is all done before the claymore reaches the door, despite the claymore being significantly closer. Keep in mind, the speed of the explosion would be ~ mach 3.5.

And here are two instances of a younger vamp bullet timing: LinkLink. The former being accomplished while distracted. In case you aren't familiar with these characters, the first is Beau, the second is Damon. Both of whom are considerably below the speed of Kol.

@tektonic:

"Quoting that dude was a terrible mistake, as he is clearly trolling or simply lacks in-depth knowledge of the show."

I guess that's why you and the other guy haven't responded to me but okay let's do this.

Yes. That is exactly why I have refrained from responding to you. And that is how it is going to remain, as I refuse to continue to derail this thread by humoring your claims.

Riddle me this guys. @ourmanuel@rijehu

So if Elena is sooooo supernatural, you're telling me if she walked up to the anti magic barrier, her entire body no her entire existence(lmao) would dissolve since she was engineered by magic?!!

The reason Elena functions as a human and is therefore an anomaly you can't rely on is because nature engineered her to be functionally a human, there is no point in offsetting the imbalance Amara and Silas made by creating anything but. In order for nature to be satisfied she had to be as normal as possible, which she was so she can die the mortal death that Amara did not. Same with Stefan.

And no the claymore falls far short of Doomsday's laser reaching outer space.

Look at all that headcanon

Not even sure whether to respond or not

@boc: I’m trying to do some HW assignments so I’ll keep it to the point.

Travel speed doesn’t mean anything outside of how fast Kol gets to WW. The issue is (as I have already stated) WW has reaction feats against beings with travel speed that hilariously outclass the Originals. As well as energy attacks that again, move faster than even those beings. Taking the absolute highest calcs for any Original and applying it to Kol, will still dwarf in comparison to the highest calcs of travel speed of DD or Superman or even Ares. Again, Diana has reacted to and alongside these guys. The fact is, nothing says Diana can’t react to Kol even if he tried to close the gap and everything says she can do so easily.

If Kol does close the gap and and gets within melee range, he’s done for. I’ve already given scenarios in which I granted you Kol’s advantages in compulsion and speed and he still loses because WW is still fast enough to maneuver against him, and skilled and powerful enough to overpower him before he does anything.

He has to physically stop directly in front of her to compel her. This is a warrior we’re talking about here. Someone who has countered on several occasions, blitzing or linear attacks head on with her shield, her braces, or her sword. Diana isn’t an idiot nor a noob. The moment Kol gets to her and tries to utter anything, she’s already countering him. He isn’t statuing her or stagnating her at all.

That’s why I said your argument rests on the fact that Kol approaches Diana and she does nothing. That’s not even in her character during battles. You’re expecting one trained in the art of war to essentially not be a warrior here, despite the fact that she always has been in several scenarios. It’s just not happening.

Kol is getting impaled mid syllable or getting knocked to the other side. She has a consistent amount of feats that says she can and will do this. To be honest, Kol is more likely to run to her, try to give a threatening monologue, before he’s cleaved apart. His only chance of winning this is wishful thinking.

You aren’t buying that Diana’s entire catalog of feats against vastly superior beings in every sense of the word, in combination with her superior stats, experience, and skills, will do anything to Kol and I’m definitely not buying Kol running up on her and just gazing in her eyes as he gives a command without her even flinching against him.

@rijehu: Ok, now that we've gotten the compulsion/inconstancy arguments out of the way, I think we can have a coherent and fruitful discussion.

This should be quite easily debated. What quantifiable feat does WW have that suggests she can react to a mach 3.5++ (speculating mach 4.5, but I'd have to get it calced) blitz? After this blitz, Kol simply has to utter one word and the fight would be over, "Stop." But honestly, even if he spoke more than one word, it's not as if she could resist once the compulsion has begun. You seem pretty confident that she has a reaction feat on this level so, if she does, I will concede.

@boc: Excuse me. I don’t think our debates were neither unfruitful or incoherent. Sure we have disagreed and picked apart each other’s statements, but I can go through and understand everything said here. Don’t insult us. Not to mention that I have actually debated on your side of the arguments before now that I remember who you are. I don’t consider either of us incompetent.

This is already flawed. Kol isn’t going to run and compel at the same time. So when arriving at Diana after his spurt, he’s stationary, she attacks. He is isn’t speaking at Mach 4.

Assuming that you can actually quantify that Kol has actually ran Mach 4 at all, instead of arguing that he “should be able” to do so because Klaus did, and that he does so consistently each and every time he speeds, I’ll give you one. (I’ve already done this). And I’m using travel speed of comparable openings since that’s the formula here.

I mentioned that flight speed for Superman in his weakest point on screen clocks at Mach 24 (actually Mach 29 since I mistyped but we’ll do 24 for this sake.) DD is Clarke’s superior in every way which is why he was capable of reacting to, negating blitzes from, and blitzing him while simultaneously tangoing within Diana.

If we scale the way you do, Diana reacting to any blitz and strike from DD (as well as his heat vision which again, covers ground instantaneously and to a much faster degree than the launcher ) would have to put her at least that speed. Again, using this formula if scaling, Diana has reacted to beings who dwarf Kol and everyone else in his verse.

If you’re going to argue that it’s unquantifiable or there is no evidence that DD or Clarke moved that fast in their blitzes, beams, or blows for whatever reason or that they suddenly decided to hold back against each other or WW (DD), I will kindly ask you to prove that Kol has “quantifiably” ran at Mach 4 in every single instance.

This is essentially who has the best reaction against the highest calcs of their peers speed. And unless you want to argue that Kol can now run faster than either of these Kryptonians can fly, Diana cleaves.

@macleen: What’s your take? I find TVD species very impressive amongst live action shows, but not on the caliber of DCEU or MCU upper tiers.

WW can't win she has no way to win

@rijehu:

Excuse me. I don’t think our debates were neither unfruitful or incoherent. Sure we have disagreed and picked apart each other’s statements, but I can go through and understand everything said here. Don’t insult us. Not to mention that I have actually debated on your side of the arguments before now that I remember who you are. I don’t consider either of us incompetent.

Fair.

This is already flawed. Kol isn’t going to run and compel at the same time. So when arriving at Diana after his spurt, he’s stationary, she attacks. He is isn’t speaking at Mach 4.

Nor does he need to. As seen many times throughout the show, compulsion doesn't start when words are uttered. Evident by the sound effect, compulsion starts as soon as the vampire starts it; which is why victims of compulsion stop resisting even before the vampire begins to talk. So after a blitz from Kol, he immediately begins compulsion.

Assuming that you can actually quantify that Kol has actually ran Mach 4 at all, instead of arguing that he “should be able” to do so because Klaus did, and that he does so consistently each and every time he speeds, I’ll give you one. (I’ve already done this). And I’m using travel speed of comparable openings since that’s the formula here.

I'm not simply assuming that Kol can travel at this speed because Klaus can. It's simply one of the fundamental laws of the universe (vampires of the same age being of the same power.) I gave Klaus a slight edge over Kol as his hybrid nature may give him a slight speed advantage. And I'm not basing this solely on travel speed; as I explained in my claymore breakdown, Klaus had to release the hunter and move around the few obstacles in his way to get to the door. Which is how I explained why this travel speed has some maneuverability.

I mentioned that flight speed for Superman in his weakest point on screen clocks at Mach 24 (actually Mach 29 since I mistyped but we’ll do 24 for this sake.) DD is Clarke’s superior in every way which is why he was capable of reacting to, negating blitzes from, and blitzing him while simultaneously tangoing within Diana.

Which feat is this that calced his flight at mach 29?

If we scale the way you do, Diana reacting to any blitz and strike from DD (as well as his heat vision which again, covers ground instantaneously and to a much faster degree than the launcher ) would have to put her at least that speed. Again, using this formula if scaling, Diana has reacted to beings who dwarf Kol and everyone else in his verse.

I know which fight you are referring to, but again, I'd like you to post the specific moments of these feats. From as far as I could tell, when watching the scene, the only thing Diana reacted to was DD's downward strike and his heat vision.

If you’re going to argue that it’s unquantifiable or there is no evidence that DD or Clarke moved that fast in their blitzes, beams, or blows for whatever reason or that they suddenly decided to hold back against each other or WW (DD), I will kindly ask you to prove that Kol has “quantifiably” ran at Mach 4 in every single instance.

Well, when reviewing the scene, I don't think Clark's blitzes were at his top speed. Howbeit, not because of some PIS or holding back. It's simply that the times DD reacted to Supes, Clark had very little time for acceleration. Meaning he couldn't build up enough speed in that short distance. I don't think there is anything to suggest that Superman can go from stationary to his top speed instantaneous. This is unlike the claymore feat I referenced, as all the actions Klaus performs occur after the claymore has detonated. Meaning, in that short amount of time, he can accelerate from stationary to mach 3.5++.

I don’t even know how she would put him down permanently. Characters like Damon have tried decapitating Originals like Elijah, didn’t work. Their bodies seem to be powered by Esther’s magic to not die unless staked by the white oak or bitten by an enhanced Original like Marcel. Within the rules of the Vampire Diaries world, I just don’t think Diana’s sword would work. And with his speed and extremely quick regeneration, she’s going to struggle to keep him down, if even if she does hurt him. She can definitely pierce him, but I don’t know if Esther’s magic would allow her to outright kill him, as he can only be killed by specific things. The immorality spell that Esther used is actually really OP when you sit down and think about it.

@ourmanuel:

You still here? Dude, your arguments were already dismantled and dismissed posts ago. I don’t have to do what’s already been done. You’re butthurt. I understand. You’ve been out in your place by one user and you’re trying to take that frustration out elsewhere. You don’t have an argument to debunk anymore. You’re just arguing with yourself now.

Cringe indeed.

Diana literally tangos with hypersonic beings and teleported, and dances around point blank range MG bullet barrages and bullet timers. Kol couldn’t dance around humans or younger vampires on panel and has been tagged HOW MANY TIMES now by lesser??? Please stop this madness. And Vampires get pierced by literally EVERYTHING in their verse. Diana staggered Superman with a headbutt and tanked two from him as well as punches and attacks from being that foddering TVD verse.

And Kol hasn’t shown resistance to being dismembered by a sword created by a Greek goddess of war, being wielded by a literal god killer with hundreds of not thousands of years of experience with far greater threats. You're talking from a sunken place. Go back to class bro.

@ourmanuel: Eat a snickers bro. It’ll get better.

@rijehu:

Diana gets one of these

@rijehu: or this

Mhm

@tektonic: I need you to do me a favor because I just read the OP and realized a fatal flaw. This is a battle between these guys BLOODLUSTED. Do you remember what BL Diana did in her fight with Ares? I need you to a gif and post it because I’m on a phone and limited. People are arguing that Kol blitzes her and compels her when there is no reason as to why a BL Kol would even do that. He would go in for the kill just like Diana would. We know how that goes. But I need the gifs to show that Kol gets one shotted via being in Diana’s vicinity.

@ourmanuel: You feel better?

@tektonic: I totally didn’t even see the rules for the battle (WW would win anyway) but seeing as to how she’s blood-lusted, she’s decimating Kol. In her BL, Diana tapped into God mode and released a force from her body that vaporized the massive steel debris she was wrapped in, WHILE it was being reinforced by Ares own TK, and we know how OP that is.

Secondly, look at the speed in which she transitions from being wrapped in metal sheets on the ground, to bursting into upright position being bloodlusted. That was an instantaneous frame.

Kol isn’t even surviving the blast that hit the metal. Look at how Diana again blitzes a mass of soldiers all while casually countering bullets from all directions while literally snatching and chunking soldiers away and into others. Like, what has BL Kol done?

Also, remember when her GM activated and created a Force field that shredded Ares’ weapons involuntarily and used in combination with her braces, created a barrier strong enough to blast him back mid blitz?? Yeah...This is spite.

I honestly cant believe this is an argument kol and vampire vs a battle goddess that can take on city busters to planet busters and easily keep up with supersonic to ftl speeds. wow

lmao

I honestly cant believe this is an argument kol and vampire vs a battle goddess that can take on city busters to planet busters and easily keep up with supersonic to ftl speeds. wow

WTF

@kolkent: smh keep up

I’d back Diana after seeing the arguments against compulsion.

Are you insane? What arguments have been brought up against it?

Its literally people going "hurr she has magic so she resists it gg"

WW has superior stats (especially strength, held a tank over her head with zero effort) and compulsion is useless since Kol would need to make eye contact up close and he doesn't have the stats to hold WW in place to even use compulsion.

WW for sure has better strength, combat speed, durability and versatility with her one shot sword.

@ourmanuel: I’ve been away for a while but no, the argument for compulsion isn’t valid because outside form certain context, supernatural beings can’t be compelled according to TVD laws.

Regarding Originals:

All humans can be compelled because they are humans, thus not supernatural.

Doppelgängers can be compelled because while they are a supernatural occurrence, they themselves are still human.

Unturned werewolves are vulnerable to compulsion because, much like doppelgängers, they are a supernatural occurrence and are still human natured before the gene is activated, after which they become a full fledged supernatural.

Other non original Vampires can be compelled because they are all sired (directly or indirectly) from the Originals, thus inferior to the apex of their species.

Hybrids can also be compelled due to their Vampire half being susceptible in the same way regular vampires are.

Even then, we see that compulsion has its limits even with the susceptible. Caroline’s father is a human who trained his mind to resist compulsion. His love for Elena allowed Stephan to resist Klaus’ compulsion even if temporarily.

Shen Min was able to resist Elijah’s compulsion through sheer will.

Alaric as well as the Legacies canon has already confirmed that Supernaturals can’t be compelled (aside from the obvious cases listed above).

WW is not only supernatural, but she is not even remotely human. She is a hybrid species of Greek god and Amazonian. To even assert that she is vulnerable to compulsion because “she hasn’t shown resistance to it” is folly, as her natural being as a mixture of two higher tier supernatural beings would make her immune anyway via the very rules of TVD universe.

Not to mention that she is anywhere from 800 to 5000 years old and is a species more powerful than anything in TVD, (capable of dealing with both magic and might). If humans and lesser species of supernatural origins who are canonically susceptible to compulsion, can still show immunity and even resistance to it, then there is no way that WW who again, is immune by default canonically, and is superior in every way, is being compelled.

The only way to argue for compulsion is to ignore all the rules of TVD, ignore the limitations shown, and to give compulsion the NLF treatment (which is flawed by the fact that we have seen its limits on panel).

To assert that Diana can be compelled by Kol, is to basically assert that Kol can compel Zues and Ares and the entire Greek pantheon as well as the Amazonians. I can’t speak for everyone here but, I don’t see any Original looking DCEU gods in the eyes and forcing them to do anything. It’s not happening.

Oh hell no, here we go again.

@rijehuso much wrong with this post.

I’ve been away for a while but no, the argument for compulsion isn’t valid because outside form certain context, supernatural beings can’t be compelled according to TVD laws.

The compulsion argument is valid and you're using the "context" the opposite way. Outside context, any creature can be compelled until they are specifically stated otherwise. This phenomenon is seen in both humans and supernatural. Compulsion is a given with certain exceptions who are typically either immune, resistant or protected by plot.

Regarding Originals:

All humans can be compelled because they are humans, thus not supernatural.

This statement is challenged by the fact that some humans can resist compulsion through training. Once again, it has nothing to do with being supernatural or not.

Doppelgängers can be compelled because while they are a supernatural occurrence, they themselves are still human.

Doppelgangers are not humans, they look like humans but they are not humans. Otherwise this argument can be used on the likes of Superman, Thor and WW who also look like humans but are not. Reasons why doppelgangers are not humans are quite plenty.

Their blood can complete hybrid transition where human blood won't.

Their status as doppelgangers means their blood can be used as binding agent instead of celestial events that witches use for some of their most powerful spells (immortality spells). Something humans can't.

Gilbert rings don't work on them while they work on humans. There is also the fact that humans wearing the Gilbert ring come back to life if killed by a doppelganger (Alaric).

Their reason for existence is also completely supernatural. They are the mortal shadows of Silas and Amara when they became immortal are a result of Nature trying to find a balance. This way they would die in place of the two immortals.

This brings me to the conclusion that the only reason you think doppelgangers are humans is because they don't have typical supernaturals powers such as strength and speed.

Unturned werewolves are vulnerable to compulsion because, much like doppelgängers, they are a supernatural occurrence and are still human natured before the gene is activated, after which they become a full fledged supernatural.

Un-triggered werewolves are far from humans.

They are more aggressive, stronger, faster and more durable than humans.

They can be affected the Gilbert device which doesn't affect humans.

So once again, just because they look like humans doesn't make it so.

Other non original Vampires can be compelled because they are all sired (directly or indirectly) from the Originals, thus inferior to the apex of their species.

This is the first I've heard of this. Firstly, sire-lines have nothing to do with compulsion (it's actually a special case). Klaus sire-line was broken by Davina yet both he and Elijah were still able to compel vampires of his previous sire-line. Secondly, Hayley is not sired to any of them yet she is vulnerable to their compulsion.

Hybrids can also be compelled due to their Vampire half being susceptible in the same way regular vampires are.

First time you're actually right.

Even then, we see that compulsion has its limits even with the susceptible. Caroline’s father is a human who trained his mind to resist compulsion. His love for Elena allowed Stephan to resist Klaus’ compulsion even if temporarily.

Compulsion's limits is only affected by characters with deus ex machina status ( the context you were talking about). We are not told how they even train against compulsion other than the fact that Tibet monks can train humans to resist compulsion. The Stefan seen is either plot driven or just dumb which can either be used to show Stefan resist compulsion or Klaus not going full-out with his compulsion.

Shen Min was able to resist Elijah’s compulsion through sheer will.

Another example where no explanation is given. Also Shen Min did fully resist hence the suicide to prevent him from talking, otherwise I'm sure Elijah would've gone all out like Klaus did on Stefan.

Alaric as well as the Legacies canon has already confirmed that Supernaturals can’t be compelled (aside from the obvious cases listed above).

When was this confirmed? Because as far as I know anyone can be compelled (why vampires use compulsion on anyone until they learn of their resistance or immunity) until specified otherwise, which is in-universe and cannot be used as an argument against compulsion. This confirms that anyone, both human and supernatural can be compelled unless stated otherwise.

WW is not only supernatural, but she is not even remotely human. She is a hybrid species of Greek god and Amazonian. To even assert that she is vulnerable to compulsion because “she hasn’t shown resistance to it” is folly, as her natural being as a mixture of two higher tier supernatural beings would make her immune anyway via the very rules of TVD universe.

Her not being human is not a valid argument for resisting compulsion as it works on nonhumans too. That's not how arguments work. WW has to show resistance or immunity to compulsion for it to work since it works on both humans and nonhumans. There are no rules in the VD/TO verse that state being supernatural makes you immune. Hell the VD/TO verse itself breaks its own established rules every now and then in the case of witches being both vampires and witches...

Not to mention that she is anywhere from 800 to 5000 years old and is a species more powerful than anything in TVD, (capable of dealing with both magic and might). If humans and lesser species of supernatural origins who are canonically susceptible to compulsion, can still show immunity and even resistance to it, then there is no way that WW who again, is immune by default canonically, and is superior in every way, is being compelled.

Your human argument keeps on failing, for one then ones that resist compulsion happen to be trained by some secret organization using unknown means which WW has not encountered. Secondly there is not canonical rule that makes supernatural immune to compulsion by default. That's just head-canon. This makes me conclude you know nothing of the VD/TO verse. There are several beings who would clown WW.

Travellers will easily trap her in an alternate dimension.

Town level withces like Hope, Qetsiyah, Dhalia, harvest girl Davina, expression Bony, Silas will ragdoll her.

Other powerful witches like Esther can trap her conscious in alternate realities, boil her brain and do all kinds of nasty stuff with prep.

Immortal Silas TP's her, same goes for Sirens, Vampires, Esther, Beasts, enhanced originals, Travellers etc.

The Hollow curbstomps her in so many levels from TP to

Arcadius TP's her or traps her soul in his hell dimension and torture her for eternity.

Malivore can trap her in his dimension.

Dude there are a lot of pwerful and messed up guys in the VD/TO verse.

The only way to argue for compulsion is to ignore all the rules of TVD, ignore the limitations shown, and to give compulsion the NLF treatment (which is flawed by the fact that we have seen its limits on panel).

You're the one ignoring all rules and using you own headcanon. There is no NLF used here, no one says compulsion works on everyone. It's limits are in-universe and are usually specified as an exception and not the rule since both supernaturals and humans have been show to be vulnerable against compulsion.

To assert that Diana can be compelled by Kol, is to basically assert that Kol can compel Zues and Ares and the entire Greek pantheon as well as the Amazonians. I can’t speak for everyone here but, I don’t see any Original looking DCEU gods in the eyes and forcing them to do anything. It’s not happening.

Firstly, Diana is not Zeus, come back when Diana can create entire islands, humankind etc then we will talk. Also come back when the DCEU Greek pantheons can create entire dimensions and alternate realities at will. This alone proves the VD/TO verse and its magic is superior to current DCEU, so I can easily see how compulsion will work on WW.